Bought brass from Norway Customs took it sent me letter saying may face charges

[farmbif]

Any info or insight would be helpful, I'm not a lawyer. I ordered some once fired 30-06 Norma brass from a guy in Norway advertising on gunbroker. I sent payment over a year ago. It never showed up.
Last week I got letter from US Customs in Chicago saying it was confiscated and they want to know if I want challenge their authority and hire a lawyer pay some fees to try and get it released, and by the way, I may be facing criminal charges.
I never expected anything like this ordering 150 pc of once fired brass from someone on gunbroker who has more than 200 positive feedback comments from people just like me that bought his brass.

[Der Gebirgsjager]

I'm not a lawyer, and I'm not giving legal advice, just saying what I'd probably do under the circumstances. I'd write a letter to Customs stating the circumstances of the matter and pointing out that there have been 200 similar transactions recorded without any action. Very often people will respond reasonably to reasonably laid out facts. There are so many government employees attempting to enforce so many laws and regulations that once in awhile someone is bound to make an erroneous interpretation -- probably what has happened here. I seriously doubt if they'd prosecute you for anything short of a boatload. Remain courteous.

[Premod70]

Call your US Representative's office and ask for legal advice/aid.

[HATCH]

Your out of luck.
Ammunition brass requires a import permit.
Your best bet it to play dumb and let it go. They will most likely not press charges against you because of the quantity ordered and the fact it's your first time.

Do not waste your time and money getting a lawyer over 150 pieces of brass cause your not gonna win and could potentially face criminal charges vs just letting it go.




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[HATCH]

And don't contact your representative.
You can contact customs and tell them that you were unaware that you were in violation of the law.
That you are willing to forfeit your shipment and will not do it again


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[Zbench]

Read the thread I started at the top of this sub forum. If you buy ITAR controlled stuff and have it shipped here, or you send ITAR controlled stuff abroad, you are playing with fire. The playing dumb approach worked for me. Just not worth it.

[EDG]

Don't listen to any of these guys. Talk to a lawyer that knows a bit about small arms ammo import.

[silverbuzzard]

write it off and don't buy that stuff outside USA again !

[dtknowles]

Don't listen to any of these guys. Talk to a lawyer that knows a bit about small arms ammo import.

If you can get a lawyer to talk for free, the cost of a couple hundred pieces of brass will not get you much time on the billable hour clock. That assumes your time is free as well.

Tim

[jmorris]

Hmm, lawyer or 150 brass cases....

I have two in my immediate family and I know of no brass cases that would be worth the consultation fee much less any proceedings.

$1/ea new here for what you bought, that's less than a "sit down" with an attorney that would do you any good.

How did you pay? That would be my first choice to back out vs go further into the muck...

[Ed in North Texas]

I would also suggest you contact the GunBroker staff about this. It is unlikely to do you any good, assuming the advice that it is illegal to import fired brass is correct. But it might help someone else if the GunBroker staff requires the seller to stipulate that he can not ship to the US. And who knows, they have been very helpful to me in the past when I had problems, perhaps they can obtain a partial refund (though that would have been much easier if you hadn't waited so long for the shipment).

Good luck.

[tbj555]

Don't worry about it, the seller is the one in trouble not you! You can't stop people from shipping you anything. Unless you tell them you ordered it or that have proof you did then no worries. I know this from a friend that traveled to Amsterdam and sent a bunch of small packages of hash back to the states ( to me and a few more friends) they caught a few of them and they emptied the package and then added that letter saying the same thing. If you want the contents call this number. Well no one ever called and never heard from them again.

[jonp]

And don't contact your representative.
You can contact customs and tell them that you were unaware that you were in violation of the law.
That you are willing to forfeit your shipment and will not do it again


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^^^^This. You just learned a lesson. Let it go and buy your brass here. Why did you get it on Gunbroker from Norway? Was it that cheap? 30-06 brass isn't exactly hard to come by.

[farmbif]

I appreciate all the advice and don't know which way to go, I am a law abiding citizen, I don't do things that are morally, ethically or legally wrong, I have never been arrested or even accused of a crime other than a couple traffic tickets. I really can't afford a lawyer and after getting this notice they can keep the brass. I was just thinking at $42/150 I Norma brass is top quality stuff. As far as the law, I guess its just on par with the state of our nation at this day and age, an individual law abiding citizen can't get a box of brass from out of the country but companies like Lapua and Norma can send it over by the boatload because they pay the government a fee and the politicians can spend like money in their own piggy bank.
I thinking I should let them know they can keep it since there is a problem and explain the situation how I ordered it from gunbroker one of the reasons being that more than 200 others said it was a legitimate deal and the same seller still has the ad on gunbroker and I sent him message asking if he has a permit to **** to the US and have yet to get response.

[tomme boy]

https://www.atf.gov/firearms/docs/form/form-6-part-1-application-and-permit-importation-firearms-ammunition-and

[4719dave]

Well this sounds like a page out of my story book .I sold brass to a guy in kangaroo land ,guy said ya no problem we buy brass here all the time ,so I shipped it ,I even posted threads if I could with no replies I got the letters too .custom's took mine as well .there's a phone number on that slip to call tell them to keep it ...you have to have some license to export brass is what I was told ..

[HATCH]

Farmbif, you are the one that has to have a permit to import not him.


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[farmbif]

4719dave, we have both had our brass confiscated, I'm from down the road in north Cape Coral, nice to meet you neighbor. After 27 years here it has changed to the point I bought place in TN an in process of a move to have my own backyard range. Anyway I was just thinking that the brass will most likely end up in a govt auction, that's what really gets me. I certainly would have never bit on the ad if I knew it were illegal to buy from out of country. I learned lesson the hard way, I guess I'll just get a box of new Lapua brass from local store to see if I can ring last bit of accuracy out of old Rem 700. I am just hoping they will drop the issue and don't want to make an example with a case. All this while I'm waiting on deliver of a mold from MP in Slovania--Is it legal to buy a mold from out of the country?

[HATCH]

Yes it's legal for the mold.


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[dtknowles]

I appreciate all the advice and don't know which way to go, I am a law abiding citizen, I don't do things that are morally, ethically or legally wrong, I have never been arrested or even accused of a crime other than a couple traffic tickets. I really can't afford a lawyer and after getting this notice they can keep the brass. I was just thinking at $42/150 I Norma brass is top quality stuff. As far as the law, I guess its just on par with the state of our nation at this day and age, an individual law abiding citizen can't get a box of brass from out of the country but companies like Lapua and Norma can send it over by the boatload because they pay the government a fee and the politicians can spend like money in their own piggy bank.
I thinking I should let them know they can keep it since there is a problem and explain the situation how I ordered it from gunbroker one of the reasons being that more than 200 others said it was a legitimate deal and the same seller still has the ad on gunbroker and I sent him message asking if he has a permit to **** to the US and have yet to get response.

Be careful you might be dealing with jackbooted thugs with no heart or conscience. If you give them the lead that you used gunbroker they could then have evidence enough to charge you. I would just let it alone and hope it dies.

Tim

[bedbugbilly]

use the "Hillary defense" . . . "I don't remember".

[tbj555]

Be careful you might be dealing with jackbooted thugs with no heart or conscience. If you give them the lead that you used gunbroker they could then have evidence enough to charge you. I would just let it alone and hope it dies.

Tim


yes yes yes , do not call them let it go. If they were going to arrest you you wouldn't have got a letter you would have received a knock at the door.

[HATCH]

It's 150 pieces of brass. They aren't going charge you or knock on your door or anything besides the letter.

I brought in wooden AK stock sets from Poland for years. Never had any issues. Even brought in some magazines.


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[WILCO]

http://rlv.zcache.ca/keep_calm_and_call_your_lawyer_mousepad-r31cad96d042d473c93f09aa99791239b_x74vi_8byvr_324. jpg
http://www.dpjohnsonlaw.net/images/contact-an-attorney.jpg

[WILCO]

It's always cheaper than this:

[WILCO]

https://s3.amazonaws.com/lawgical/assets/data/367/original.jpg?1313002916

[WILCO]

http://tse1.mm.bing.net/th?&id=OIP.M7470419b12f1a5024401e3a7ce3bb0e6o0&w=300&h=225&c=0&pid=1.9&rs=0&p=0&r=0 (http://www.bing.com/images/search?q=be+happy&view=detailv2&&id=A4325D1988769E96FCB2549E04E35FD62B331D4B&selectedIndex=1&ccid=dHBBmxLx&simid=607997354044098594&thid=OIP.M7470419b12f1a5024401e3a7ce3bb0e6o0)

[OS OK]

I agree with knowles...let it alone and let it die...maybe say a few prayers too.

Just in case though, it's good to have another 'B' plan in the works...buy a jar of Vaseline!

[WILCO]

https://images7.alphacoders.com/375/375518.jpg

[OS OK]

WILCO...do you have any idea whatsoever...how dangerous those things are?

[ascast]

I would
1) NOT pursue or contact any legal people outside immediate family or long tern friends-you will only lose more
2) PLAN on eating the cost
3) DO NOT throw gunbroker under the bus. not there fault. they might cover your loss, if they understand they may to loose business, legal problems,blah blah,hint, hint
4) Ask seller too refund in full,
5) POST NEGATIVE feedback to warn off others,
good luck

[WILCO]

WILCO...do you have any idea whatsoever...how dangerous those things are?


I struggle with certain concepts............

[imashooter2]

Be careful you might be dealing with jackbooted thugs with no heart or conscience. If you give them the lead that you used gunbroker they could then have evidence enough to charge you. I would just let it alone and hope it dies.

Tim

Best advice. ITAR violations are felonies. Felony convictions void your firearms rights. If by some long odds you are charged, lawyer up and fight tooth and nail.

[WILCO]

http://thebiography.info/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/Laetitia-Casta.jpg

[reddog81]

For $42 who cares... I wouldn't do anything. Contacting them and explaining the situation only admits guilt. Contacting a lawyer will get you nothing except a legal bill. Just because he has 200 positive reviews doesn't mean anything at all, other than about 1 out of 200 people get caught sending brass.

[salpal48]

First. Why would anyone In His right mind Buy Common 30/06 From Norway.
Second : Go out and get a Lawyer. , Pay The money for a Retainer. . and have him send It to Customs.
Third . have him Get involved and spend More Money
. Fourth, Don't Get any Brass, and Throw good Money after bad

If you want You can continue This chain Of stupidity.

[farmbif]

When I clicked the buy it now button there was a 5 digit zip code, I did not know it was coming from outside the country until committing to purchase trying to make the payment he would not accept postal money order but required paypal. Rather than renege on the purchase I just made payment thru paypal. I have been selling stuff on ebay for years and know how crappy it is when people commit to purchase and then back out. It is far too late to leave any feedback.
I have been more than very busy with moving, fixing old house I bought and trying to build out buildings, putting a new shop together at new property for past 18 months and It was not like I was going to mailbox waiting for deliver every day, I buy quite a bit online, parts for projects, engine parts, specialty tools and have not really had time to give it much thought that I had not gotten this brass, might sound lame or stupid but I just wasn't paying attention. I still have at least 10 more 1000 mile trips to make to complete move. I guess it's kinda like waiting 3 years for an MP mold from a group buy sign up.
I guess I should just forget about it and customs will do with the brass whatever they do. I never would have got involved in the transaction if I knew up front it was, 1, Illegal to buy brass from outside U.S. and 2, being purchased from foreign country.

[WILCO]

When I clicked the buy it now button there was a 5 digit zip code, I did not know it was coming from outside the country until committing to purchase trying to make the payment he would not accept postal money order but required paypal. Rather than renege on the purchase I just made payment thru paypal. I have been selling stuff on ebay for years and know how crappy it is when people commit to purchase and then back out. It is far too late to leave any feedback.
I have been more than very busy with moving, fixing old house I bought and trying to build out buildings, putting a new shop together at new property for past 18 months and It was not like I was going to mailbox waiting for deliver every day, I buy quite a bit online, parts for projects, engine parts, specialty tools and have not really had time to give it much thought that I had not gotten this brass, might sound lame or stupid but I just wasn't paying attention. I still have at least 10 more 1000 mile trips to make to complete move. I guess it's kinda like waiting 3 years for an MP mold from a group buy sign up.
I guess I should just forget about it and customs will do with the brass whatever they do. I never would have got involved in the transaction if I knew up front it was, 1, Illegal to buy brass from outside U.S. and 2, being purchased from foreign country.

No need to explain. Do what you need to take care of yourself. You asked a question and received some good advice. All else is chatter.

Best wishes.

[mtnman31]

I hope I don't run into your luck. I've got a bayonet inbound from Europe. I knowingly bought it from an overseas seller. I figure I'll take my chances. I get eBay stuff all the time from foreign sellers, never had an issue yet. If/when I have to answer for it, I figure if I loose a couple bucks on an item, I've more than made up for it on all the savings from the previous items I've gotten. I buy electronics components all the time. As an example, I can buy a pack of ten connectors shipped to my door for the price of one from a US based vendor. The US vendor is getting his parts from Asia, so me ordering direct from the supplier cuts out the middle men and saves me a substantial amount of money. I guess the main difference is that I haven't really gotten much shooting stuff from foreign vendors up to this point. I have not had any issues with quality or items never arriving. The only thing is that sometimes the item may take a little longer to arrive.

[Blackwater]

Premod70 gives the best advice you can get. And if you get a lawyer, you need one that's a specialist is customs law. This is the result of a bureaucracy that's grown so large that sneezing will soon be illegal, I think!

One of my friends back in the 70's had been highly placed in the Navy Arms Co., and I once asked him about what the international shipping regulations were, and he just rolled his eyes, and said, "Don't even ASK!" So even 40 years ago it was a nightmare of sorts, at least from our perspective at the time, and it's grown MUCH worse since. I have two cousins who work at the Ga. Ports Auth. in Savannah, and they say shipments are pretty closely checked these days. Anything that could be considered "war munitions" can't be sent to or received from overseas, without great trial and tribulation in the process of getting it OK'd, IF it gets OK'd at all. This is my understanding, at least, and I doubt very many really have much greater understanding of the regs and requirements than that.

Our bureaucratic laws and regs have become like the nake symbol who is eating its own tail! The first visit to an atty. is often free (not always but often) and having met with an import atty. IF anything comes of it will at least give you a telephone number to call IF any charges are filed. I think it all depends on how many cases the bureaucrat in charge has already on his plate, in all probability, but probabilities are NOT much of an assurance. The Feds CAN make a "federal case" out of such things, quite literally. And they always seem to fall back on that old "ignorance of the law is no excuse" thing.

One last tip, IF you were to be charged and go to court, be VERY SURE your atty. has it reduced to a misdemeanor instead of a felony, so you can retain your gun rights legally. This is a BIGGIE!

[HATCH]

You need to listen.
Don't get a lawyer, don't do anything.
They aren't charging you.
Just don't order brass again from overseas.
I have dealt with US Customs issues before.
Your fine.

And for the guy that ordered the bayonet, it's just a knife. You are fine.
I ordered from Poland bayonets, magazines, gun parts, furniture and other stuff.
Never any barrels, receivers or ammo components.
All shipped via us mail. Every order was under $100 so I didn't have to declare anything.


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[A pause for the COZ]

Yea, let it go and please dont drag the other people who got lucky down the hole too.
All that would do is get them to look into it more and thats never a good thing.
Cut your losses and move on...

[gnostic]

If Gunbroker dot com received a fee they should be responsible. That's what ebay would do if you made a purchase and didn't receive the item in question. You had good reason to believe your purchase was legal. I think your issue is with Gunbroker, they created your loss and legal exposure.

[tomme boy]

Just do a charge back on paypal. Done and over with. Paypal usually always sides on the buyer side. Unless you did this as a gift then you are SOL!

[farmbif]

Only a few weeks ago I sent emails to all of the elected officials for the area where I am registered to vote about some new medical regulations that effects me and many thousands if not millions and not one of them took the time to respond, from senators to council members they just don't seem to care about little people like myself. They are the ones who have created this monster of a government regulating nearly every aspect of our lives.

[dtknowles]

Everyone, Contact your congress people and tell them that ITAR needs to be reformed. It is out of control and does very little that is good.

Tim

[Duckiller]

Don't vote for anyone that ignores your letters,e-mails etc. They don't necessarily have to vote the way you want them to but they at least owe you and explanation of why they voted the way they did or why they are doing nothing. We do not hold our elected officials to any standard. They at least owe you an explaination of what they are doing. If no explanation throw the bum out as sson as possible!

[jonp]

You paid paypal? File a complaint with them immediately to get your money back. Also file a complaint with gunbroker that the seller was overseas and did not identify as such for selling customs ITAR controlled objects. Paypal might come through, dont hold your breath with gunbroker.

[PB234]

Do the restrictions extend to things such as magazines or replacement parts?

[dragon813gt]

Do the restrictions extend to things such as magazines or replacement parts?

It applies to ORM-D materials. It goes beyond just firearm related items. And ITAR is only part of it. The list is pretty big and ITAR is really confusing.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

You might also be dealing with decent human beings whom the rules require to send out the same form letter to everyone. I think the chances of facing legal charges are minimal, and so are the chances of getting your brass back. Either way the best thing you can do is to write a letter of bewildered innocence, rather than put their backs up by demanding rights you don't have. Offer any proofs you can of your good record and that the same kind of brass is freely available in the US. Anybody in a similar situation with exclusively civilian components should also mention that.

More than a year ago I imported some 24ga. Magtech cases from the US to the UK, after finding that they were allowed, but rifle and pistol cases weren't. I imagine that the changes for import and export were made at the same time, but it is worth checking up on whether they happened before you made the transaction. If by any chance you find out that they have acted on rules that weren't in place at the time, you have something to argue with. But even then do it politely, acknowledging that the mistake was easily made. That costs you no money.

I had a similar experience. I had a copy of the West Point ordnance textbook for 1938, which I found decades before in the effects of my maternal grandfather a First World War artilleryman. It was an improbably advanced text for him, as he was only a corporal and concerned mainly with the horses. Someone had written my own surname, and only recently I realised that the initial L was actually R. So it was my Uncle Bob in Australia, who had met his Australian wife while a military college instructor in wartime, and went there directly from India when peace broke out. He was still sharp as a needle at 98, and reading every day, always non-fiction.

So I sent it to him from Saudi Arabia, where I was at the time, and the tracking showed it leaving the country and then vanishing from the record. While we were waiting he had a bad stroke and a fall, and died in hospital five days later. Almost his last words were that his book ought to arrive soon. I still wonder if it was impounded as telling people how to make explosives - which of course it did, but it had been pressed into his hands by the King-Emperor, acting through intermediaries, when he was meant to be instructing soldiers in the same. That is what unclear handwriting gets you.

You can understand the basic principle behind restrictions. I can remember the Armalite phase of the troubles in Northern Ireland, when a lot of people were killed with weapons supplied by Irish-American gunrunners, and you probably owe quite a bit of domestic US gun control to them. There are certainly countries from which you wouldn't want undocumented munitions entering the US. It is neither the case, nor reasonable, that you could get out of drug smuggling charges on the basis that only some mysterious Columbian was guilty of sending a package. But it is in the nature of regulations not to make fine distinctions.

[fatelk]

You might also be dealing with decent human beings whom the rules require to send out the same form letter to everyone. I think the chances of facing legal charges are minimal, and so are the chances of getting your brass back.

That seems more likely to me. Customs probably deals with little stuff like this every day.

I expect that they have bigger fish to fry and if they tried to go after everyone who accidentally broke a rule out of ignorance on something so minor as a handful of empty cases, they would never have time to go after real criminals.

Honestly if it were me I wouldn't respond at all, unless by some extremely unlikely chance they contacted you again. It was an innocent mistake, and easily explained as such. I suppose it would be wise to gather any documentation and explanations you might have in your defense to keep on file just in case, but I can't imagine you'd ever need it.