Problem with dacron filler

[james nicholson]

I am casting for .223 in a Super 14 Contender. Lee Bator cast with Lyman #2, sized .225 and lubed with Lars' BAC and top coated with Ben's Liquid Lube. I found a good load using 7.0 gr Unique, doing 1920 over the chrono, I was grouping .75" at 50 yds but had a few fliers. I read on here where using a dacron filler would tighten up my group and reduce std. dev.. I loaded up 10 rounds using my load and a piece of dacron 1/2" square. Tried those ten today and I could not get on the paper. I shot 5 rounds without filler and poi returned to normal and all rounds were in a 1&1/2 " group. I hung a piece of wrapping paper behind the target and fired the remaining 5 rounds with filler. 3 rounds hit the 8 X 11 target paper and the other 2 rounds were off, one was low left 9" from center of target and the other was high right 11" from center. the 3 rounds on the target were in a 9" group all over the place. Actual 5 shot group was 14". Any one know what is going on with this? Thanks, Jim

[runfiverun]

you didn't lower your load and work up with the filler.
the fliers in this case are not load related my money is on they are void related.
try shooting a couple of groups with weight sorted boolits and see what happens.

[popper]

Don't shoot 223 and definitly don't know how you get sheet (woven) dacron in the case. I suspect that is the problem. Pull it apart till it is like fluff, then stuff all you can in the case WITHOUT tamping hard. You need to LIGHTLY fill the case completely. As others note, the filler weight should be included in the load (boolit) weight. Not much difference for heavy boolits but 60gr? Like R5R says, it increases load psi so work up.

[44man]

A 1/2" square is not the same as loose filler to the boolit base. You will have created air space above the filler.

[Chill Wills]

A 1/2" square is not the same as loose filler to the boolit base. You will have created air space above the filler.

I agree.
Fiber bat tamped down on unique... maybe not so good.

Try slower powder, add 0.3grains (maybe 0.4 grs) from a bag of Dacron Poly pillow stuffing (loose fibers) just barely push it in the case - NEVER tamp it down - top fibers will be in the neck - bullet will finish getting it where it needs to be.

The common error made with this is using way too much, then tamping down into a wad and shooting powders that are too fast. Try powders from the slower part of the chart.
Re work any known loads; in other words start load development over from low starting loads because fibers holding powder to the primer end of the case will cause a rise in velocity/pressure. .... Just like holding the rifle up in the air before shooting v pointing at the ground before shooting.

[james nicholson]

The 1/2" square was the dacron unrolled into a sheet, the piece is so thin you can see thru it. It is not tamped, pushed in with a piece of 1/8" dowel and let the bullet finish the pushing in, just like it says here. I weighed the dacron at 0.5 grains. My original load was worked up from 5 gr to 9 gr, 7.0 to 7.4 was the most accurate, I settled on 7.0 gr. I carry these loads to the range in the box with the tips up. The reason I added the dacron was to improve accuracy. There is a thread on "The Floyd Files" where Jim did the same thing as I did, but his accuracy went up by 40%. None of my loads between 5 and 9 grains were anywhere near this in poor accuracy.

[Kraschenbirn]

I've tried dacron fill in every one to the dozen or so CF rifle calibers that I load and have had good-to-excellent results in almost all of them when using slower-burning powders but have noted absolutely ZERO (or NEGATIVE) improvement using dacron with anything faster than IMR4198.

Bill

[JWT]

I guessing way too much Dacron for that small bottle neck case. When loading 45/70 with 5744 I only use 3/4grain and it's pulled apart before insertion.

179802179803

[popper]

IMO dacron has 2 uses. Hold the powder in a uniform position in the case so ignition is always(?) the same. Bring 'apparent' fill density up so the powder burns good. For both conditions the filler needs to fill the empty space in the case. If you want to 'cushion' the base, use some cardboard glued to the base.

[35remington]

I have noted when using fast powders like Unique at your pressure levels the Dacron started to fuse and go molten.....which is why I don't use it for anything but low pressure with fast powder, and preferably not at all. I just tip the rifle up if it's position sensitive and skip the Dacron. 2400/4227/4759 and slower I do use it.

Depending upon exact pressure, blobs of fusing show up, then a piece conforming to the base area, and on from there.

[runfiverun]

if it's ignition issues they show up as velocity variations.
those variations generally show up as vertical stringing.
horizontal stringing is either the rifle or the primer itself not being consistent.

odd flyer[s] is not generally ignition related.
if the flyers are consistent [like every 6th shot] it's usually lube purging.
if they just come at random.
I'd remove the light boolits from the batch.
or anything with a slight falw.
or anything that the gas check goes on differently than normal.

[Lloyd Smale]

you don't need a filler with 7 grains of unique in a 223 case. I use the same load in cases as big as 308s and never have used a filler and get great accuracy. My guess is your pushing it a bit with 7 grains of unique in that little case. Id back off to 5 and work up slowly till I found the most accurate load. Heck ive loaded 3 grains of bullseye in a 4570 case without a filler and it shot just fine.

[lotech]

I haven't used any sort of filler in a long time and I'm not criticizing those that do use them. However, trying another (usually more suitable) powder may solve such a problem and negate the need for a filler.

[Sasquatch-1]

It sounds like you are rolling the 1/2" square into a tube to get it in the neck of the case. If this is the case you probably have powder falling into the Dacron tube you have formed. Try the loose poly fill used for stuffing pillows. Or, if you are on the frugal side try some dryer lint and see how that works.

I use 7 grns. of Unique in a 44 with a 260 grn. bullet, with polyfill between the charge and the bullet, and can definitely feel the difference.

PS, If you use dryer lint check the bullets after loading, you may have some hairs sticking out of the case. Could be embarrassing.



The 1/2" square was the dacron unrolled into a sheet, the piece is so thin you can see thru it. It is not tamped, pushed in with a piece of 1/8" dowel and let the bullet finish the pushing in, just like it says here. I weighed the dacron at 0.5 grains. My original load was worked up from 5 gr to 9 gr, 7.0 to 7.4 was the most accurate, I settled on 7.0 gr. I carry these loads to the range in the box with the tips up. The reason I added the dacron was to improve accuracy. There is a thread on "The Floyd Files" where Jim did the same thing as I did, but his accuracy went up by 40%. None of my loads between 5 and 9 grains were anywhere near this in poor accuracy.

[dverna]

Jim

If without filler you were getting 1 1/2 groups with a few fliers, sorting the bullets is worth looking at. One thing to try is shooting some jacketed bullets with that 7.0 gr load and seeing if you get fliers. If you get fliers, then you have an ignition issue and Dacron (or a different powder) may help...if they group, you have a cast bullet issue. Even with jacketed bullets you may get more consistency using a filler but that is another project. At this point you have done from 1 1/2" to 14"...something is wrong. A little too much/little Dacron does not seem a logical reason to me but I cannot advise on fillers. Runfiverun is worth listening to.

Running some jacketed with Dacron may also shed some light on things.

Don Verna

[Outpost75]

In the .223/5.56mm case there is no need to use a filler.

As stated above, there is no benefit to using filler with powders faster than 4198 in .223/5.56

And as I have stated before, if a load requires a filler to achieve acceptable ballistic uniformity, then the powder selected is unsuited for those conditions of loading.

After I ringed my third .30-'06 chamber neck I quit using fillers... I get good accuracy without it.

179831

[beagle]

I'm with Lloyd on this one. That much Unique in that small of a case is all right normally. I've shot some loads with up to 9.0 grains in the Number 1 Ruger. Then you add the dacron and the case capacity is reduced significantly which will up pressure and velocity. I was amazed at what a difference .001" in sizing diameter made in velocity with Unique loads. With the dacron filler and a .225" sized bullet you may be exceeding what I found was the magic 2400 FPS accuracy threshold with WW alloy (at least in my rifle). Chrono graphing a few of your dacron loads may tell you a story and solve your mystery. Just MHO./beagle

[james nicholson]

Thanks, Beagle, I fired the LAST 4 rounds of the filler/7 gr yesterday over the chrono. I got very strange results, #1 1934, #2 1335, #3 1624 and #4 1458. I think R5R got it right when he said my non filler rounds would benefit from better weight sorting (I sorted to the closest 1/2 grain) and I think Kraschenbirn was exactly right when he said no filler with Unique, I found the same advice also from Larry Gibson in an old post. I am going to delete the filler and stay with 7 grains. Thanks everyone for the help, I appreciated it, Jim

[beagle]

Weight sorting would probably not give you dismal results like that. One winter I sat down and cast over 2,000 RCBS 22-55-SPs. After ruthlessly inspecting them, I GC'd, sized and lubed. Then I weighed each and every one on a set of e scales and sorted them into .1 grain batches. Took me a while to do this. I then counted the number of each weight and plotted them on a graph. A perfect "bell" curve on the results. There were a few very lights and a few very heavies. In my Number 1 .223 loads from either of these groups (a variance of from .1 to .5 grain) would still go into 2" or so at 100 yards. I loaded some from the very top of the curve which were sorted to .1 grain figuring these would give the best accuracy. These would go into a little over an inch. The best results came from either side of the top of the bell but still in .1 grain batches. Groups would go down to about 1/2" but I still obtained the occasional flyer. Later on I started Super Gluing the checks on. This seemed to lessen the occurrence of the flyers but they never completely went away. After about a year of messing with it, I moved on to something else. Based on these experiments when I was messing with loads while writing Cast Loads in the .223 on Castpics, I came to the conclusion that very critical inspection combined with a tight fitting gas check has more to do with accuracy than does the normal weight variation you get from as cast bullets. I suspect in your case, the powder is at fault. If there is any 2400 available, try some. I've found it's a very consistent powder for the .223 and cast loads./beagle

[runfiverun]

2400 is a very good powder in the 223.
11grs seems to be a real good area to hang out in.

[james nicholson]

I just happen to have an unopened jug of 2400, I will try that next.