Goodbye rural America

[Junior1942]

Last night I watched a PBS show about astronomy. It said only 1 in 5 Americans had ever seen the Milky Way due to light pollution. That's another sign of America becoming less rural and more urban. People, i.e., voters, have moved to the cities.

[Boz330]

I don't think it is all from polution. The humidity in the atmosphere can obscure it as well. When I was guiding in NM you could see it in the mornings and evenings but you were also at 8000+ feet and drier than a popcorn fart. Truly beautiful though, kinda miss going out there. Unfortunately real life gets in the way sometimes.

Bob

[sundog]

Junior, I walk my dogs almost every evening when the wx is nice. We live far enough out that the night sky is alive. Most evenings the milky way is plainly visible. When you think about stuff like this, it helps put your world in perspective.

Some of those shows on PBS are top notch!

Your observation about voters is spot on. Urbanites. In many respects it does change the way you think about stuff, plainly evident in the red and blue on elections maps.

[jim4065]

I remember Rush Limbaugh mocking "Light Pollution" on the radio. The man simply hadn't seen a dark sky. Started my son in Astronomy about 20 years ago and we had to go 25 miles out of town to get a dark sky. I hope all those people stay in towns - it leaves more empty space for those of us who don't want to be part of the flock.

(Incidentally - this is not a complaint with Rush. Most people don't know what they're talking about.)

[Bret4207]

There is a growing and very real divide between the urban/suburban populationa nd the rural population. Although it's probably ahrd toimagine to anyone not familiar with it, NY State is predominently a rural State. Agriculture is NY's largest income producer by a large margin. Yet, we are ruled by the large population center in the greater NYC area. Even more to the point, the country is ruled by the 2 coasts. east coast/west coast. Everything 50 miles or more inland is pretty much ignored politically. Flyover country.

When they start taxing our water wells, demanding we get rid of our woodstoves, call our 2 dozen chickens and a pig a "Concentrated Animal Feed Lot", limit our harvest of firewood, etc. then we'll have some real problems.

[Bret4207]

I remember Rush Limbaugh mocking "Light Pollution" on the radio. The man simply hadn't seen a dark sky. Started my son in Astronomy about 20 years ago and we had to go 25 miles out of town to get a dark sky. I hope all those people stay in towns - it leaves more empty space for those of us who don't want to be part of the flock.

(Incidentally - this is not a complaint with Rush. Most people don't know what they're talking about.)



WHAT!!! Rush isn't always completely and utterly RIGHT!!!! :groner: You'll never become a mind numbed robot thinking like that!!!:roll:

[Mumblypeg]

That problem has been here for years.That's why we have the big gun debate. No, the kids in the gettto don't need guns so all the city voters think that no one else needs them either. When ever I talk with someone who has been raised and lived in the "City" all their life they just don't understand. And of course it's the other way around also. The difference is I have no disire to change their way of life as I feel that they are trying to do to me. I'm sure we all have watched as our world has changed around us just as it has for those before us (sigh...). Back to the first point, My time spent in the west, Mt.,Wy.,Id,and Co. Sure lets one know just how big and beautiful the sky really is and what we're missing living near the cities. However, when it's overcast, it's darker than "The Inside of A Cow". All the fields and woods that I played in as a child are now residential neighborhoods with houses everwhere. DARN! I'm getting depressed. Think I'll go cast so Boolits.

[KCSO]

The biggest problem we have here is the CITY folks coming out and buying RECREATION property. The pick up 80 acres and put a big fence atround it and then bi#c# about the neighbors, the animal smells and the hunters. I just wish the $@b's would stay in the city!

[dakotashooter2]

When they start taxing our water wells, demanding we get rid of our woodstoves, call our 2 dozen chickens and a pig a "Concentrated Animal Feed Lot", limit our harvest of firewood, etc. then we'll have some real problems.


The thing is the more they dictate what the rural areas do the more they hurt themselves. NYC can't grow enough food for it's residents on it's rooftops. If they "shut down " the rural areas they shoot themselves in the foot.

[montana_charlie]

WHAT!!! Rush isn't always completely and utterly RIGHT!!!!
He is always completely and utterly right...he just isn't always 'correct'.
Others are always completely and utterly left...and they are seldom correct.
CM

[Bret4207]

He is always completely and utterly right...he just isn't always 'correct'.
Others are always completely and utterly left...and they are seldom correct.
CM

:mrgreen::mrgreen::mrgreen:

[Ricochet]

Anybody who's dabbled in amateur astronomy with an interest in viewing the "faint fuzzies" (galaxies and nebulae) well knows that "light pollution" is a serious problem. There are no areas around where I live in Northeast Tennessee with truly dark skies. Even out in the rural areas "security lights" abound, with poor designs that waste much of their expensive light output up into the sky, to illuminate the bellies of night flying birds and planes. Same around the cities, better designed and intelligently installed lighting fixtures would more efficiently accomplish their desired purposes with less waste light cast into the sky.

Lots of good information is here: http://darksky.org/

I don't think Rush Limbaugh contributes to the problem. He's a generator of heat, not light.

[lathesmith]

Man, I envy you guys that live in states with clear "rural" and "urban" areas. Here in SW MO, it is getting very difficult to find a truly rural spot. The old farm place about an hour's drive north of Springfield where we hunt is a prime example. 20 years ago, you only occasionally heard people, and things like plane fly-overs were minimal. Now, when hunting, you really have to think about your shots, and where they are headed, because of all the houses around, and jet fly-overs are a constant reminder of the 'big' city. The night sky isn't nearly as dark as it used to be, either; not nearly the contrast between there and Springfield as there used to be. Around here, land barons buy old farms and chop them up into 5-,10-,or 20- acre "farms" and sell them to city folks who think now they own a real "farm". I hate this trend; maybe $4.00/gal gasoline will slow it down for a while, but I'm not very hopeful. Sigh.....I guess I'll just continue to be "bitter", and cling to God -n- guns, but while living in the city....
lathesmith

[pumpguy]

Dark skies are one of the few things I truly miss about living in Kansas.

[Boerrancher]

Around here, land barons buy old farms and chop them up into 5-,10-,or 20- acre "farms" and sell them to city folks who think now they own a real "farm". I hate this trend; maybe $4.00/gal gasoline will slow it down for a while, but I'm not very hopeful. Sigh.....I guess I'll just continue to be "bitter", and cling to God -n- guns, but while living in the city....
lathesmith

That started to happen a few ridges over from my place here in East Central Mo. While I was in Afghanistan, someone came in a bought up an old farm near by. They sub divided it into 20 acre parcels, built roads to all of the parcels, and then built a small lake/large pond on each. They want $80k per parcel, no mobile homes, no live stock 'cept horses limited to two, min house size of 3,000 sq ft, and the rules go on.

There was a few places sold, but now they are for sale. Fuel is too high, the ponds don't hold water, the heavy rains have washed the roads out. From my point of view it is great, as I have already had a belly full of city folks coming to the country to escape the city, then bringing with them their city ways, rules, and regulations.

Best Wishes from the Boer Ranch, and vote for Barr in 08

Joe

[TCLouis]

My Mom had a cabin up on the Conejos River in southern CO. Night skies were wonderful.\

Then came the DAMNED security/night light and ruined it for everyone forever!

[waksupi]

I get to see the stars pretty clearly here at my cabin. Many nights, you get a good dose of the northern lights. I didn't realise how many stars were in the sky, though, until I stood in the prairie in Alberta at night. The mountains block off a lot of the sky here at home.

[Boerrancher]

I didn't realise how many stars were in the sky, though, until I stood in the prairie in Alberta at night. The mountains block off a lot of the sky here at home.

I was always good about identifying the various constellations and here where I live there are no lights, as my nearest neighbor is over 1/2 mile. I thought I could really see the stars. When I got to Afghanistan and was at 14k feet, the night sky was amazing. The stars were so bright that even with a new moon there was no need for a light to walk by at night. If the moon was out it was like being out on a heavily overcast day.

I love living out where I do. There is 300+ acres that I hunt on and was the original family farm, now my cousin has 80 of it and my great aunt has 80, and I have the rest. I also have about 36K acres of state forest that my western property line runs against that is open for hunting. The only draw back is that I am always having to run someone off for trying to deer or turkey hunt as they come off of the state ground. I will let most people hunt who ask, but when they sneak in I send them packing. Oh the drawbacks to country living. :-D

[floodgate]

Bret:

"mrgreen mrgreen mrgreen:
mrgreen mrgreen mrgreen:"

Whatinny'ell does THAT mean?

Fg

[wills]

My Mom had a cabin up on the Conejos River in southern CO. Night skies were wonderful.\

Then came the DAMNED security/night light and ruined it for everyone forever!

Should have had a switch put in so you can turn it off.

[Boz330]

I was always good about identifying the various constellations and here where I live there are no lights, as my nearest neighbor is over 1/2 mile. I thought I could really see the stars. When I got to Afghanistan and was at 14k feet, the night sky was amazing. The stars were so bright that even with a new moon there was no need for a light to walk by at night. If the moon was out it was like being out on a heavily overcast day.

I love living out where I do. There is 300+ acres that I hunt on and was the original family farm, now my cousin has 80 of it and my great aunt has 80, and I have the rest. I also have about 36K acres of state forest that my western property line runs against that is open for hunting. The only draw back is that I am always having to run someone off for trying to deer or turkey hunt as they come off of the state ground. I will let most people hunt who ask, but when they sneak in I send them packing. Oh the drawbacks to country living. :-D

I'm with you there Joe, I've always let people who ask hunt. It has always been an unwritten rule around here that you could tresspass your neighbors land to hunt. But with the ballyhoo about the range I might have to rethink that issue.[smilie=1:

Bob

[Boerrancher]

I'm with you there Joe, I've always let people who ask hunt. It has always been an unwritten rule around here that you could tresspass your neighbors land to hunt. But with the ballyhoo about the range I might have to rethink that issue.[smilie=1:

Bob

All of my neighbors know they can hunt anytime they want, even the neighbor to the north whom I do not really get along with due to his drinking problem. I did have to explain to the Neighbor to the North that just because he could hunt here, did not mean that he could bring in the people that he charges to hunt on his land. I told him if they were tracking a wounded animal that was one thing, but any other time it had better be just him.

[Bret4207]

Bret:

"mrgreen mrgreen mrgreen:
mrgreen mrgreen mrgreen:"

Whatinny'ell does THAT mean?

Fg

You didn't see the little smilie faces? Ah! I bet you were viewing in "Today" mode. When you check posts by going to "Today" you get a text of the smilies. IOW- I was laughing at his very good joke!

[10-x]

Thank God we can still see most stars even here in St. Marys.
Have made a point to take the Grandkids out at night and show them the Big Dipper and how to find the North Star.
Have to go west of here to see everything.
BTW anyone that has night vision goggles or such, just look up at the night sky, you will see every star +:drinks:

[PatMarlin]

The biggest problem we have here is the CITY folks coming out and buying RECREATION property. The pick up 80 acres and put a big fence atround it and then bi#c# about the neighbors, the animal smells and the hunters. I just wish the $@b's would stay in the city!

Ditto on that one.

I don't think most people in the cities give a rats arse about stars. They don't even look up, and most don't know what the milky way is cept for a damn candie bar.

I live in dark sky country here. Lots of it. I work just to keep it.

[Bret4207]

I'm with you there Joe, I've always let people who ask hunt. It has always been an unwritten rule around here that you could tresspass your neighbors land to hunt. But with the ballyhoo about the range I might have to rethink that issue.[smilie=1:

Bob

That'd never go around here. You let peole hunt your land and stuff starts disappearing, fences get cut, stray bullets wind up in your livestock and before long you've got a couple of long haired smelly boys asking you just what in h### you are doing on this land! It happened to me. Besides, what happens when Joe the drug dealer welfare mutt twists his ankle on your land? LAWSUIT!!!! It's just not worth it.

The only guy I let hunt my land is Dano67, and that's just so I can sneak off and see his wife!!![smilie=1::mrgreen::mrgreen:

[Boerrancher]

Besides, what happens when Joe the drug dealer welfare mutt twists his ankle on your land? LAWSUIT!!!! It's just not worth it.



My land is posted, so unless they have written permission they are in violation of the law. The close neighbors and friends don't ask for written permission, and I never ever give it. If something happens and I am sued they were trespassing. MO has some pretty stiff trespass laws. If you are on a persons land with out written permission, you are trespassing, period, no questions ask.

Even the people I let hunt I do not give them written permission. It is called CYA. I tell them if they want to hunt, hunt, but no written permission slips. The neighbors around here are mostly farmers like I am and families have been in the area, just like my family, for nearly 200 years. We look out for each other and try to keep the city folks away.

Best wishes from the Boer Ranch and Vote Barr in 08

[Bret4207]

If it works for you that's good enough I guess. The problem I run into is the mutts that think just because I've got "all that land" (342 acres that I bought and paid for and pay taxes and insurance on) that I'm under some sort of obligation to provide them with free hunting and pot growing ground. After all, their great-great Grandfather's cousins wifes sisters sons beagle had a litter just over my fence line in 1934, so it's practically their land anyways......

Okay, so I'm a little territorial. I dreamed of a place like this for years and darned if I'm letting folks wander around here. I never was good at sharing.

[Junior1942]

IME, the problem with letting people hunt on your land is they start bringing friends and relatives.

[floodgate]

Bret:

Ackshully, I DID know that - but it took me a while to figure the code out. Those of us who stick mostly with the "Today Show" recognize the problem, but I have forgotten the icon codes, so it is always amusing to run into one.

Doug

[Bret4207]

Bret:

Ackshully, I DID know that - but it took me a while to figure the code out. Those of us who stick mostly with the "Today Show" recognize the problem, but I have forgotten the icon codes, so it is always amusing to run into one.

Doug

I figured as much. Now, what in heck does your tag line say! That cartoon/avatar is a bit of a dim memories for someone in his extreeeeemly late "30's" (48).

[EasyEd]

And another reason that so many Americans haven’t seen the Milky Way is that they aren’t smart enough, aware of nature enough, aren’t curious enough to look up – but they vote.
Living in Tucson, we have a pretty good view of the night sky. Pollution is minimal, and light pollution is kept down because 50 miles west is Kitt Peak National Observatory, the largest conglomeration of telescopes in the Free World (can I still say ‘Free World’?), and the City does it’s best to help them out.
And also remembner - you saw it on PBS. True, they do have good shows, but they also have an agenda. Maybe only 1/5 have seen the Milky Way, but there are reasons other than pollution...

[Junior1942]

An agenda? An astronomy program?

[Ricochet]

It's hard for me to see the nefarious agenda in noting the fact (easily checked with your own eyes) that in most places in the U.S. the Milky Way cannot be seen.

[PatMarlin]

Here's a side note from a rural American...

I just tried making a tuna sandwich with just mustard, and onions- little mayo on my bread with some romaine lettuce and get this- sauerkraut!

It rocks. Now back to your regular scheduled postings.. :mrgreen:

[wills]

We have a bunch of Sauerkraut this year, homemade.

[Ricochet]

I hear you should watch out for the killer tomatoes.

[10-x]

PBS= Partly B.S./Probably B.S.........

[Lee]

Don't forget those sourdough slices with liverwurst/braunschweiger and a slice of Vidalia onion with mustard. Take that out in the backyard after dark. Eat and look up.....................

[TCLouis]

Should have had a switch put in so you can turn it off.

No one put a switch in and they are seldom there other than weekends.

The neighbor here put one in, but luckily it burned out and he moved out!
A PERFECT combination of events!

[Boerrancher]

Right at dusk tonight the wife and I went out side to put the chickens to roost, and the neighbor to the North is drunk again. This time he is up at his lake which is about 400 yards from my house whooping, hollerin', and blasting some kind of noise on the radio that I guess is suppose to resemble music. I would have thought that a 50 some year old man would have out grown that kind of crap.

Oh the joys of county livin'. I have 2 choices out here, I can either go over and have a conversation with him, and after he heals up he may understand, that type of behaviour is not acceptable, or I can put up with it. Since I am laid up recovering from my surgery, I guess I will have to put up with it. That is not to say that my cousin down the valley might not get a belly full of it and go have that conversation with him.

It is pretty bad when his radio a quarter mile away is louder than the whippoorwill in my back yard. [smilie=b:

[PatMarlin]

Homemade sauerkraut- I would love to try that.

My 100% Dutch Grandfather used to Love mustard. That must be where I got it from. He loved Limburger cheese too.. :mrgreen:

[wills]

Besides, what happens when Joe the drug dealer welfare mutt twists his ankle on your land? LAWSUIT!!!! It's just not worth it.

smilie=1::mrgreen::mrgreen:

If i recall correctly the general rule (common law) regarding tresspassers was no duty, other than not to harm them intentionally.

Missouri rule
http://www.moga.mo.gov/statutes/C500-599/5370000346.HTM

Texas rule
http://tlo2.tlc.state.tx.us/statutes/docs/CP/content/htm/cp.004.00.000075.00.htm#75.001.00

Kentucky rule
(lost patience)

I hear you should watch out for the killer tomatoes.

We planted late, the tomaotes are just starting to ripen.

[Slowpoke]

And another reason that so many Americans haven’t seen the Milky Way is that they aren’t smart enough, aware of nature enough, aren’t curious enough to look up – but they vote.
Living in Tucson, we have a pretty good view of the night sky. Pollution is minimal, and light pollution is kept down because 50 miles west is Kitt Peak National Observatory, the largest conglomeration of telescopes in the Free World (can I still say ‘Free World’?), and the City does it’s best to help them out.
And also remembner - you saw it on PBS. True, they do have good shows, but they also have an agenda. Maybe only 1/5 have seen the Milky Way, but there are reasons other than pollution...

Have you forgot that they put a observatory on MT Hopkins in the Santa Rita's because the light pollution was starting to inter fear with Kit peak or so they said.

I miss the night sky in S AZ.

Up in the Lakeside -- Pinetop area it was phenomenal .

I endured quite a few nights out with just a AZ blanket (stars) in my life, a few were even by choice.

I watch the news and Charlie Rose on PBS, and some of the Music specials, most of the other stuff turns my stomach .

good luck

[Four Fingers of Death]

I always take my visitors out of town to see the sky, they are pretty impressed where i live in town as it is not a big town, but drive a few miles out and watch their eyes open up. I use a Mag-Lite with a fancy bulb to point out the stars for them. The beam seems to go forever and they are generally gob-smacked.

Where I used to work in the Snowy Mountains and lived on an old farm, the sky seemed to come right down to the ground and the milky way was awesome.

Poor buggers don't know what they are missing!

[wills]

Homemade sauerkraut- I would love to try that.

My 100% Dutch Grandfather used to Love mustard. That must be where I got it from. He loved Limburger cheese too.. :mrgreen:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showpost.php?p=353467&postcount=1

[rhead]

When they come out from the city they must think that the land is still available for homestead.
"This tree don't belong to anybody. It is just out here in the woods." A 100yer old + furniture grade oak already cut into firewood lengths and being split.
The city boy judge bought their excuse and made them leave the firewood. Several thousand$ of value converted to a few hundred in one afternoon.

[Bret4207]

When they come out from the city they must think that the land is still available for homestead.
"This tree don't belong to anybody. I is just out here in the woods." A 100yer old + furniture grade oak already cut into firewood lengts and being split.
The city boy judge bought their excuse and made them leave the firewood. Several thousand$ of value converted to a few hundred in one afternoon.

Bingo! You know just what I'm talking about. Brand new 5 wire fence with a 12 foot wide gate. The snowmobilers didn't want to detour 50' out of their way, so they cut my fence!

And people wonder why landowners are "pricks".

[bruce drake]

Bret,

Does the phrase "leave the snowmobiles there and walk out the same way you came in."

And who did you serve with the summons to repair the cost of the fence.

Bruce

[PatMarlin]

Thanks for the recipie Wills.. :drinks:

My wife likes it too. Maybe she'll get motivated and make a batch. I'm picturing smoked venison sausage, a pile of kraut and some good mustard!!

[EasyEd]

To Junior - PBS has an agenda, no matter what the program.

To Ricochet - I look at a US map and see hundreds of thousands of square miles of vacant or sparsely settled land. It is possible to see the Milky Way from most of the US. Maybe not from 20 or 30 cities and their envorons, but once removed from those locations...

[Junior1942]

To Junior - PBS has an agenda, no matter what the program.And it is. . . ? Some sort of left wing plot. . . ? Right wing plot. . . ?

To Ricochet - I look at a US map and see hundreds of thousands of square miles of vacant or sparsely settled land. It is possible to see the Milky Way from most of the US. Maybe not from 20 or 30 cities and their envorons, but once removed from those locations...You can't see the Milky Way in most any American city over 1,000 in population.

[floodgate]

To back up Junior's statement, check out the "light pollution" map on this site:

http:/laps.noaa.gov/albers/slides/ast/places.html

...and this is based on the 1990 census data! We are lucky (as VERY amateur astronomers) to have relatively clear skies, but we do have some pollution from a half-dozed sodium- and mercury-vapor yard lights at a small mill seven miles east of us, and visibility is noticeably poorer in that direction. Incidentally, the air where we live, 15 miles inland from the northern West Coast is often more transparent that in the Mojave Desert where we used to live; as soon as people start moving into the desert, the first thing that happens is a lot of airborne dust and light.

Even if you're not into astronomy, that light is largely wasted, and the electric energy losses involved are far from insignificant.

Every little bit wasted, hurts all of us.

Rant over...

Floodgate

[Ricochet]

To Ricochet - I look at a US map and see hundreds of thousands of square miles of vacant or sparsely settled land. It is possible to see the Milky Way from most of the US. Maybe not from 20 or 30 cities and their envorons, but once removed from those locations...Better if I'd said that most people in the U.S. live where it's not possible to see the Milky Way.

However, in vast areas of the "vacant or sparsely settled land" there's enough light pollution to considerably reduce the visibility of the Milky Way, fainter stars, and fuzzy telescopic objects. Even in the "rural" areas of Northeast Tennessee, Southwest Virginia and Northwestern North Carolina around where I live, there are no truly dark skies. Looking at satellite pictures taken at night will help to demonstrate why:

http://apod.nasa.gov/apod/image/usanight_dmsp.gif

Throw in the constant milky haze from sulfur dioxide from the coal-burning power plants that's taken away our distant views of the mountains (way denser than the natural haze the Smokey Mountains were named for), and yes, we've lost something. That haze is enough to make VFR air navigation "interesting" around these parts. Get above 3000' AGL and it often looks like you're inside an upside-down cereal bowl with marginal distance visibility.