Which 35 cal.... 358 Win or 35 Whelan ?

[JFE]

Gents,

I'm looking at building a 35 cal rifle that will mostly be used for shooting cast for plinking and hunting. Both cartridges have good points and I am having difficulty making up my mind which one to go for.

What would help would be understanding what speeds you can achieve out of either at full throttle with accuracy.

FWIW I already have the action and it can take either length cartridge. It will have a 12" twist fitted so I can shoot 300gr bullets. CBE catalogues an interesting mould design in that weight.

Views and input are welcome.

Joe

[Linstrum]

Hey! JFE, how you doin'?

That is a nice project!

The Whelen can be pushed quite a bit harder than the .358 Win without approaching the area where accuracy problems begin to show up that are related to the full house loads needed in the .358 to get maximum energy from it. So, from that standpoint alone I would go with a Whelen since you never know when you want to smack something pretty hard, and the Whelen will certainly do that. Now of course the .358 Win is no slouch, either, but the Whelen has the upper edge of horsepower with accuracy behind it while it can still be loaded down to .358 Win levels with accuracy. For plinking, either can be loaded with 0.360" round ball loads fed with 4 to 8 grains Unique (my favorite), Red Dot, 700-X, Bullseye, Green Dot, or other fast shotshell/pistol powder.

What could be interesting is to consider getting a custom made chamber insert so .358 Win cartridges could be loaded in a Whelen the same way .308 Win/7.62 NATO are fired in a .30-06, that way you could use either and just have your rifle chambered for the Whelen

One other thing to take into account is that the brass for both of them can be made from .30-06 and .308 Winchester, so supplies of brass are much, much more available than something that uses a parent cartridge like a Shooting Times Westerner or .300 H&H. Now, between those two, the .308 Win/7.62 NATO is a little more available nowadays than .30-06 because of a bit more 7.62 NATO than .30-06 military surplus stocks of once fired brass being available, although I'm not particularly worried about the availability of .30-06 brass yet unless the Chinese start paying really big bucks for scrap brass.


Good luck and let us know how you decide!


rl353

[Bass Ackward]

You can't have you cake and eat it too. If you want the best performance for any one area let that drive your decision.

Throat length is the deciding factor unless you want to buy a custom reamer.

When my Whelen was new, I used a 210 grain to 2400 fps. As the throat cleaned up, I went to 220 and top end dropped to 2300 fps. As the throat lengthened out, I am now at 250 for up to 2200, but prefer 2100 fps for close in work as it holds together better with softer (acww) metal.

358 is a short throat and 35 Whelen is long. So if you want to plink with with pistol bullets up to 250 grains, build a 358. If you want to shoot from 200 to 300 grains, I'd go the Whelen.

Coarse you can always throat out a 358 too, but action length must be considered a factor in this decision. At 300 grains, those pills get l o n g and they still have to feed in the box and chamber with a meplat. That can be the challenge.

So maybe that will drive your train as much as anything.

[Boerrancher]

My two cents,

If I was building a rifle to shoot mostly cast in, it would be the 35 whelen, for only one reason, and that is a longer neck. I have always had better accuracy with cast boolits in longer necked cases. If you are looking for a rifle to shoot pistol boolits in, then buy a rifle that shoots pistol rounds.

Best wishes form the Boer Ranch,

Joe

[Shuz]

Years ago I had a .35 Whelen made for me with a 1:12 twist. I've used nothing but cast boolits in it and my favorite is the 280g Lyman 358009. Using 48g of AA 4064, it achieves 2150 fps and has been accurate enuf at about 1.5 MOA to account for 2 bull moose and 1 bull elk so far. Good luck in your quest.--Shuz

[jhalcott]

Sold my .358 and STILL have the Whelen. Never did find that 358009 mold for it though! It shoots 200 and 250 grain cast bullets very well.

[sagamore-one]

I am also working with a Whelen. So far the most interesting load is a Rem 150 gr psp at 3200 fps. Explosive when it hits a ground hog. Groups around an inch at 100. My case forming load is no slouch either. RCBS 200 gr flat point at 2200 fps . Groups 10 shots under 2 inches at 50. Just got a Lyman 247 gr to try. Have not tried it yet.
I didn't really intend to own a Whelen. It was in the right place at the right time for very little money. Absolutely no regrets.

[hicard]

Since the action is for long cases such as the 35 Whelen I would go for that. If I was using a short (358 length) action I would go with that. I have both and enjoy shooting cast out of both of them.

[JFE]

As usual sage advice from experienced folks. Thanks for the feedback.

I wasn't aware of the throat differences between the 358 Win and 35 Whelan, so thanks for pointing that out. Can someone help with the throat specs of both.

The mould I will likely use most is a Saeco 352. For those not familiar with it, this one casts a nicley shaped 35 cal GC design of around 240gr in weight. The other mould I intend to use is CBE's 360300. For those of you interested in a Lyman 358009 but can't find one, I would suggest taking a look at this one. I know this is a big call but I think it's a better design than Lyman's and somewhat heavier too.

Joe

[Marlin Junky]

You're probably going to need a custom reamer if you plan on shooting SAECO 352 accurately from the Whelen simply because the SAAMI throats are too long and wide. You're better off with either the .350, .358 or even the .35 Remington in a bolt gun if you plan on shooting SAECO 352 and I'd stay away from the 12" twist too. If I was going to build a custom .35 to shoot SAECO 352 and lighter, I'd go with a 16" twist .358. 2200 fps with SAECO 352 is a reasonable goal with the little .35 Remington in a bolt gun but you'll probably need a 16" twist and a superior lube. If you're looking for Whelen-like velocity, go for the .350 Remington Magnum... again, with a 16" twist.

MJ

[Johnw...ski]

My .35 Whelen shoots the Saeco 352's very well at about 15.0 Bn.
The barrel is a 1 in 14" McGowen barrel chambered with a Clymer reamer.

John

[Hipshot]

Go with the .358 for the cast bullets-----the limiting factor is velocity and either cartridge will do it ! The .358 will do it with less powder! If things get really bad the rifle can be rechambered to 35 Whalen which will clean up the throat!
If you want a really good 35 cal. cast cartridge get a .35 Rem in a good strong bolt action!

Hipshot

[Marlin Junky]

My .35 Whelen shoots the Saeco 352's very well at about 15.0 Bn.
The barrel is a 1 in 14" McGowen barrel chambered with a Clymer reamer.

John

Telll us more about the Clymer reamer. Was it a custom ground reamer? What diameter neck and throat did it cut? Mass produced factory throats can exceed .361" and the necks can go over .390". I have a factory Whelen with .3575" grooves and a .361" ball seat that's about one caliber long... bad news for SAECO 352. I like to push 'em fast though.

MJ

[Nrut]

JFE...
I have the same problem chamber/throat as MJ does with his Whelen...
Plus the chamber is 2.513" long...Factory cases I have are 2.480"
chamber..... 2.513" long
throat........ .285ish" X .362"
fired case neck OD is .389" which means I can easliy insert a .364" boolit into the unsized neck by hand..
bore ......... .351"
Groove..... .3585"
A 1:12 twist thrown in for good measure..:-D

One advantage to using the Whelen or .350 mag. case over the .358 Win. case is you can use more & slower powder giving you higher vel. with less pressure...
So no matter what case you go with you should tell the gunsmith that chambers and fits your barrel that you need a chamber to accommodate a boolit slightly larger (just enough to release the boolit) than your throat dia. and a throat dia. .0015 to .002 over groove dia.....
The only good thing I can say about the chamber/throat on my 35 Whelen is that it is teaching me how to be creative with what I have ...I am using 9.3 boolits and 9.3 dies to size my cases...lots of moves to make one round...Will find out this weekend if it works [smilie=1:

[Marlin Junky]

Yup, the .350 definitely has the edge over a SAAMI chambered Whelen at least in terms of tight chamber specs with respect to brass and common dies. Too bad Remington didn't put a longer neck on it (you shoulda made it a 56 or 57mm long cartridge with your standardized body length, Remington!)... then it would be the cat's meow with a 14 to 16 inch twist (and deep enough grooves). But you (Remington) wanted to stuff all that cartridge into a 2.8" magazine box... dumb asses! :mrgreen:

MJ

[Bret4207]

You won't go wrong with either. My preference is the Whelen in a bolt gun and 358 in a lever, as in a Savage 99. I've also always thought the 358 was better with bullets under 230 gr, the Whelen not having that limitation. Just a personal preference. Both will work fine, as will most any 35 cal rifle cartrdge at least as large as the 35 Rem. Maybe split the case size difference and use 35 Mauser! Open an 8x57 Mauser to .358. Might be a great choice. Longer neck and a little more capacity, easy to come by brass, all the benefits of the 35 cal too.

[GrizzLeeBear]

..... But you (Remington) wanted to stuff all that cartridge into a 2.8" magazine box... dumb asses! :mrgreen:

MJ

I think that is the only reason the .350 exists. They wanted a 35 Whelen in a short action.

Joe, is this a 98 Mauser action? Standard length or "intermediate" (Yugo M48 or 24/47) length? If its a Yugo action I believe it is to short for a Whelen.
I'm just getting the parts together to build a Whelen on a nice clean Mauser action I got from my dad. Went with the Whelen because of the longer tapered case should feed better, and Adams and Bennet barrels (Midway) don't come in 358 anyway. I also have a source (my dad) for LOTS of free LC 30-06 brass. The 1 in 14 twist should be cast friendly and I don't intend to shoot bullets much bigger than 200 grains anyway.

Bret, I always thought a 35 on the 57 case would be cool. There is a 9x57 that is VERY close to this, but either is basically a custom dies & gunsmith project and I'm doing mine "on the cheap", hence the A & B barrel.

[docone31]

I built a real shooter with the A&B heavy barrel. It looks great, balances real well, and shoots extremely well. The barrel was heavy enough so I could put a globe front sight and go with a Lyman 57 reciever sight. With the tallest sight, it lines right up with the stock.
I got the A&B for the price. It works real well for me. Rifle weighs in at 14lbs.

[JFE]

Thanks for the additional comments.



Joe, is this a 98 Mauser action?

The action I have is a LH Zastava. Its a 30/06 length action but it is actually fitted with a mag block to limit cartridge length to 2.8", however this can easily be removed.

To summarise if I go the Whelan route it looks like I should go for a custom chamber or be prepared for some grief in matching bullets to a saami throat. An alternative might be to have the smith ream out the chamber with a 30/06 reamer then do the neck and throat as separate operations. If done properly this should result in a sensible chamber without the expense of a custom reamer. If this cant be done it doesnt look like there is much downside by going for a 358.

Out of curiosity does the 358 have any throating issues I should be aware of ?

Joe

[docone31]

Being the buttinsky I can be, I used this bolt.
http://www.e-gunparts.com/product.asp?chrProductSKU=5360
It doesn't show a picture, however, it came with a long handle. Not the military bent bolt, close to the stock and short. I took a chance and to be honest, it was worth it. It is new issue, the innards of the Mauser bolt fit right into it.
It is much more comfortable then my other bent bolt bolt bodies. It looks great jeweled also.
If you are rebarreling, you might consider it. I put the extra power spring in and it is just pleasant to use.
If you are gonna headspace anyway, you might like it.

[Bass Ackward]

To summarise if I go the Whelan route it looks like I should go for a custom chamber or be prepared for some grief in matching bullets to a saami throat. An alternative might be to have the smith ream out the chamber with a 30/06 reamer then do the neck and throat as separate operations. If done properly this should result in a sensible chamber without the expense of a custom reamer. If this cant be done it doesnt look like there is much downside by going for a 358.

Out of curiosity does the 358 have any throating issues I should be aware of ?

Joe



Joe,

No issues with the 358.

Remington standardized the Whelen and brought it out first in thier pumps. The slop was made to allow chambering and cut pressure in this action. This also occurred with the 280 Remington which is why it is also loaded below 270 / 30-06 pressure levels even though it's the same case.

SAAMI used Remington's specs as the basis for standardizing the cartridge. Then you get the fudge factor increases so that one reamer can cut the maximum amount of chambers before it wears below minimum dimensions.

But there are many reamers in existance that were made prior to this standardization. You just have to inquire about what the smith has on hand.

[Marlin Junky]

I think that is the only reason the .350 exists. They wanted a 35 Whelen in a short action.

The .350 is a great cartridge but it belongs in an intermediate M'98 action. The 2.8" magazine box of the short-lived M600/660 was better suited for the .358 Winchester cartridge. Even the additional .10" of magazine found in the M77 (2.9" vs. 2.8") provides noticeably more flexibility.

MJ

[waksupi]

Since the .35 Whelen and .358 Win. are the same bore diameter, and shoot the same bullet weights at similar velocities, I believe the .358 Win would be the choice.

That .308 case sure is versitile. .243, .260 Rem, .308, .358 Win. What's not to like!?

[JFE]

The info on throating was very helpful. Thanks for the feedback.

Joe