Brass life, How often to trim rifle brass?

[Bazoo]

I dont have a lot of experience with rifle loading, But i've loaded a lot of pistol. Pistol brass, just shoot it till it splits, or you loose it, or the primer pocket gets loose from magnum loadings. I trim my pistol brass for uniformity.

Rifle brass however needs to be trimmed. The lyman manual I learned out of basically says, trim to the suggested minimum length which is .10 shorter than max, reload it without trimmings until it grows so long it exceeds the maximum length. Then trim. And you can repeat this 4 times, until the brass is in need of its 5th trimming, not counting the 1st trimming. Then its time to dispose of the brass for safety, as it will have had as much as 40 thousands removed from trimming. With another trimming needed, it would be 50 thousands of stretch over the life of the brass

I am mainly talking 30-30, which has to be consistence in length for a consistent crimp. I dont like having to adjust the die .002 or .003 each time I load the same lot of brass.

So can I just keep track of the average amount ive trimmed the brass, say .002 or .004 each time, and when i've trimmed a combined 50 thousands, say its time to discard, given I dont have any other problems with the brass? If not .050, what number should I shoot for?

If I dont see any signs of incipient case head separation, primer pockets are tight, and i've annealed the necks... should I keep loading it? If so, how much?

It seems that some folks online dont see any need for keeping track of number of trimmings, they just load until the brass fails in the primer pocket, or until they see incipient case head separation. Is this the common practice?

So, what do yall do, if anything to keep track of the amount of brass that has been removed from trimmings, and where do you draw the line?

[Texas by God]

I've trimmed my 30-30 brass only once. Mixed head stamps; some are twenty years old and some one year old. After my marathon trimming session I've used the Lee Factory Crimp die- case length isn't as critical. Hope this helps.

[Hick]

I rarely trim my 30-30 brass. The max length in the manuals assumes that the chamber is right down at SAAMI specs. I've measured my 30-30 chamber and found what length is OK, and it is longer than the SAAMI value. So-- I let the brass grow longer. However-- your point about crimping is important. I can go longer without trimming because I do not crimp my loads, so I don't have to worry about adjusting the die so often. I've got about 15 reloads on most of my sets of 30-30 brass, and they have only been trimmed a few times.

[Tatume]

There is no rule on the number firings between brass trimmings. Measure the cases. If one case in the batch is over the maximum length, trim all of them.

I run batches of 50. When one or two fail, I scrap the batch.

[georgerkahn]

I concur 100% with other posters! I am happy you're a .30WCF shooter, and Case Overall Length is often not that critical imho as in, say, target bolt firearms -- but, I have (albeit it's rare) -- seated the bullet a smidgeon deeper to insure smooth, reliable feeding from the lever. .30WCF has a MAXIMUM case length of 2.039", and I trim mine to 2.028". My most important length to maintain is COAL: I seat my bullets for a COAL of 2.450" -- one tenth of an inch shorter than the SAAMI spec of 2.550".

Re keeping track of firings, I have long used Sharpies to color the primers. For the 1st reloading, I put a smear of blue on the new primer; for the second loading orange; for the third, red; and fourth, black. After the fourth firing, all cases get wet-tumbled w/ ss pins and lemonshine+Dawn+Armorall mix, and then annealed with my Giraud annealer. I've never counted numbers/percentages, but a small but significant number of cases get culled --with those ready for loading again getting the same primer coloring.
Sad (for me) is I'm slightly color blind -- I envy those who are able to discern the full color spectrum (Violet, Indigo, Blue, Green, Yellow, Orange, Red) for marking -- but with the rods & cones in my eyes -- just using aforementioned Sharpie works for me. As long as you remember "VIBGYOR" it is instantly possible to know brass history just by a quick glance at primer color.
Another "benefit" is, at range, the brass from MY firearms is easy to discern from others -- albeit it seems lever-shooters are indeed becoming a rarity at the two ranges I frequent.
BEST!
geo

[Texas by God]

I like your Sharpie idea. Brilliant. Much better than trying to keep track of number or firings on paper- the info is right there on the primer!

[44man]

I size my 30-30 brass just enough to close the lever just right. None will fit a 94. My Marlin chamber is a tad larger.
But brass grows a little with a few cases and none with other ones. Since I use a mild crimp I just run all through my trimmer, most just see a skim. I leave my trimmer set up and use a Thompson tool mount so it is easy to put on the bench. It takes less time to trim then to measure. Many cases do not touch at all but it is only seconds, much faster then a case length gauge or calipers.

[buckshotshoey]

The reason they say 5 reloadings, then dispose, is probably because the brass is getting work hardened at that point (depends on many factors). If you occasionally anneal your brass, you can fire them many more times. Some guys here report as many as 20 times (depending on MANY factors). The process is similar to how the factory anneals brass as it work hardens during the manufacturing process. go to top of page and do a search on annealing brass and you will see what I am talking about.

It also depends a lot on the caliber and, as Hick said, your chamber dimensions. 30-30 brass tends to have case mouths on the thin side, so annealing might be required more often.

[runfiverun]

heck I neck size 30-30 brass for a couple of rifles.

what makes brass 'grow' is squeezing it narrower then poofing it up again then squishing it down again.
don't do that to your brass and you won't have to trim as much.

[Shiloh]

I have '06 brass with close to 100 firings of cast boolits. When new they stretched a lot more than they do now.
I have cut the ones with split necks in half at the web. It all looks good. The cases are run around 1750 per second.
When do they become dangerous??

SHiloh

[JWT]

I trim every at every reload. Sometimes there is very little to nothing trimmed off. I am reloading for mostly bolt and semi-auto.

[ShooterAZ]

Since switching over to the RCBS X-Dies in most of my bolt rifle calibers 30-06, 308, 300 Win Mag I hardly ever have to trim any more. After the initial trim and sizing, they stretch just a little and then stabilize and don't stretch after that. Cases that I use in the Garand and M1A don't last very long anyway because the rifles chew them up pretty good after about a half dozen or so firings. These cases I trim after the second firing and that's it.

[ubetcha]

I concur 100% with other posters! I am happy you're a .30WCF shooter, and Case Overall Length is often not that critical imho as in, say, target bolt firearms -- but, I have (albeit it's rare) -- seated the bullet a smidgeon deeper to insure smooth, reliable feeding from the lever. .30WCF has a MAXIMUM case length of 2.039", and I trim mine to 2.028". My most important length to maintain is COAL: I seat my bullets for a COAL of 2.450" -- one tenth of an inch shorter than the SAAMI spec of 2.550".

I have used the Sharpie method for years when load the same cartridge and bullet but changing the powder charge. Notes are a must with this method. also write the notes inside the load box.


Re keeping track of firings, I have long used Sharpies to color the primers. For the 1st reloading, I put a smear of blue on the new primer; for the second loading orange; for the third, red; and fourth, black. After the fourth firing, all cases get wet-tumbled w/ ss pins and lemonshine+Dawn+Armorall mix, and then annealed with my Giraud annealer. I've never counted numbers/percentages, but a small but significant number of cases get culled --with those ready for loading again getting the same primer coloring.
Sad (for me) is I'm slightly color blind -- I envy those who are able to discern the full color spectrum (Violet, Indigo, Blue, Green, Yellow, Orange, Red) for marking -- but with the rods & cones in my eyes -- just using aforementioned Sharpie works for me. As long as you remember "VIBGYOR" it is instantly possible to know brass history just by a quick glance at primer color.
Another "benefit" is, at range, the brass from MY firearms is easy to discern from others -- albeit it seems lever-shooters are indeed becoming a rarity at the two ranges I frequent.
BEST!
geo



I have used the Sharpie method for years when using the same cartridge and bullet but changing the powder charge. Notes are a must with this method. Also put a note in the load box.

[Bazoo]

Thank you for the replies everyone.

What im talking about, is the amount of material removed more than the number of firings. When does the amount of material removed eqate to too much loss of material in the case web? If i calculated correctly from the lyman manuals recommendation, its .050 thousand or so.

I took 1 case, trimmed it and loaded it, with a low-mid level load, and I got 11 firings on it before it needed a trim. At this rate, I estimate i'll get 40-50 firings before the case loses .050 thousands material.

Keeping track of number of firings aint hard . I have a card in the box of each cartridges that has the number of firings, and the amount trimmed off. I havent done it yet, but Im going to assign lot numbers to each batch of brass, and then record what was done to that batch in a separate notebook, so that I have a more detailed record of what has been done to each batch of brass.

So, what is everyones opinion on the amount off brass that can be safely trimmed off before you consider the brass questionable, given that there are no other signs of failure?

[scottfire1957]

Trim when needed. Not a worry otherwise.

[scottfire1957]

The brass "stretched" doesn't come from the web, it comes from the neck. 30-30 is actually a mild rifle load. Do not overthink this reloading stuff. It is actually pretty simple.

[runfiverun]

I've never got to .050.
so I got no idea.

[Bazoo]

I know 30-30 is a lower pressure round, and will take a lot of loadings compared to some others.

Perhaps i am over thinking it to some degree.

[leeggen]

Just to make it simple to remember the # of times cases have been reloaded I use a peice of masking tape on the bx and list the reload # and the date. I also use notes but this makes a quick check. As long as you don't heavy load the cases will go for a long time and not need trimmed. The number of times before trimming is up to each loader working the cases.
CD

[lightman]

I trim rifle cases the first time that I load them and then I check them each time after that. Usually they will develop a split to the primer pocket will go South before I will have to trim them again. I use a carbide expander ball and I lube the case neck, so streach from sizing is minimized.

It seems like everyones quality control has lagged since the shortages in 2004. I've lost Winchester cases due to splits on the first firing. Federal seems to get loose primer pockets prematurely. Remington is hit or miss. Norma seems to be hit or miss also. A real shame, as they are very consistent, and pricey.

[William Yanda]

It will depend. If you are thumbing a round ball into a case for a cat sneeze load, possibly never. If you are maxing out the load, testing the limits, you may get 2 loads between trimming. Other considerations are the chamber size, full length or neck sizing, annealing, etc.

[Bent Ramrod]

I trim them when they get too long. I measure a case or two after each batch is resized and go from there.

Some cases never lengthen, especially cases with short to medium neck lengths. My .270 cases stay the same length until the necks split, and my .30-06 cases go on forever. My .30-40 cases, with longer necks, never lengthen because I only necksize and use cast boolits, which keep the necks lubricated for the expander plug.

I found cases for my .25-35 would lengthen and need trimming until I started using powdered lubricant inside the case necks, so the expander plug wasn't stretching them any more. On the other hand, I keep hoping some of my undersized .25-20 cases will grow to "standard" length, but this never seems to happen.

It some cases are insidious, and have to be watched constantly. My .22 Hornet cases seem to lengthen with almost every shot, and, if not watched, will raise pressures until the primers are loose in the primer pockets.

YMMV. By the way, I find trimming cases the most tedious aspect of reloading, so I only do it when it is absolutely necessary.

[robg]

Trim every time ,well nearly every time with bottle neck cases never with straight wall cases.its the one thing that's so tedious to do.

[fredj338]

Brass life is a function of the load used, how it is sized & the headspace of the rifle. You can get waaaay more than 5 reloads, that is absurd. I have gone 10x with good brass quality. You may need to trim every time or every 3-4x, depends on those factors. Using the RCBS X die, you only trim once.

[Bazoo]

Im not talking about the number of firings, but the trim habits others have.

[dragon813gt]

Im not talking about the number of firings, but the trim habits others have.

You will find that 99% say they trim only when they have to. This is dependent on to many variables to say when it will happen. I absolutely hate trimming brass. So after initial trimming I will only do it when absolutely necessary.

[35remington]

Just to see what was possible, I reloaded a single 35 Remington case 42 times at the range before giving up using LVR and the 200 FTX bullet to 2200 fps. At that point it was not quite ready for its second trimming. Something less than a half thou of stretch per shot. All with collet sizing.

Properly FL sized cases when fired with standard loads in levers die at the same rate as neck sized ones.

[Bazoo]

Thanks to everyones replies thus far.

I dont dislike trimming brass.

[Boolseye]

You can set a vernier caliper to the trim length you like and lock it with the set screw, then run your cases through the jaws.
They hit, they get trimmed. I check every piece of rifle brass before I load, but I don't shoot enough to worry about # of loadings. I also check every case for incipient case head separation sometime during the operation.

[Muddydogs]

I trim after every firing. My theory is why waist time measuring the brass to see if it needs trimmed then deciding to trim it. I just set up my RCBS case trimmer, chuck up the drill and trim away. As I remove the brass from the trimmer I look at the case mouth and if it doesn't have a fresh cut I set that piece aside to be measured when I need a break to see how short it is and if it needs culled or not. All my brass is the same length which really does help on cases that do get a crimp.

[Soundguy]

I trim every at every reload. Sometimes there is very little to nothing trimmed off. I am reloading for mostly bolt and semi-auto.

I run all my brass thru the motions, trimming included. Usually after a single loading, there is nothing to trim. Mild loads also dont seem to yield as much growth as do full power loads. I have some Greek 30-06 from the 60's still going.

[jcwit]

Only as needed, measure your cases!

[Blackwater]

As to when to trim, I store all my brass in batches, and try real hard not to get them mixed up. After several firings, I just take out 10 or so and measure them with the calipers, and trim if indicated, or just keep shooting if they're not yet at max. book length. One other thing that may serve you well, if when trimming, the brass tends to come off in chips rather than in nice curls, that's an indication that the case necks need annealing. There are threads and posts about annealing in the archives, and if you use the search feature on the site, you shouldn't have any trouble finding them, and they're pretty informative, if a bit confusing at first. Just keep reading until you have a good idea of what you're doing, and you'll be fine.

[Bazoo]

I havent annealed any brass yet, But I have some old lyman manuals that tell how to do the pan/water method.

[runfiverun]

get some temp-ilaq.
it's too easy to overshoot it.
the tempilaq lets you know what the temperature really is. [it's in the Hornady annealing set-up]
I don't mind trimming, I just set up the Dillon size-trimmer and run them through.
I hate champhering the case mouths.

[country gent]

BAck when 308 / 7.62 was the promenant caliber on the NRA High Power rifle lines alot of competitors would trim 308s to 1 .990 - 1.995 overal length. When they reached 2.010-2.015 they discarded them. They took all the trimmings to start and when the next was needed the case was done. Generally long body tapers, shallow shoulders tend to stretch faster than the straighter sharper shouldered modern cases. I had some norma swift brass that the necks thickened to the point of needing turned before the trimmings were thru. But thats a very high intesity cartridge with the body taper and shallower neck. Load intesity, case desighn, action type ( bolt actions and falling blocks are much stiffer actions than semi autos levers or pumps are), another little mentioned factor is brass hardness, some batches of brass just seem to move more per firing.

[725]

I use my Lee zip trim to measure my spent cases. If it cuts the case must have been too long. If it doesn't cut, the case is within proper specs. I like to trim for length issues but I also like the Zip Trim because I end up with a case mouth square to the axis of the case.

[Bazoo]

So, to address one of my original concerns, After how much material removed from trimming, does one consider the case to have lost so much to be unsafe for any further firings?

[Boolseye]

I'm going to go out on a limb here and suggest that number of times fired is a more accurate and simple way to judge the safety of your brass than recording the number of mm or .001" removed.

[Mossy Oak]

I check my brass as I prep it, if it needs to be trimmed I set it aside and do that as a separate process. I've done it that way for years, I use a Lee trimmer and it has become a simple and quick way to trim for me.

[35remington]

Actually, the correct number in terms of historical provenance is that when it is ready for its third trimming it should be demoted. Not what was stated earlier. This is properly conservative as it should be.

If one had something like an RCBS Case Master, one could check for case wall thinning over time. Using the "three times" standard any thinning is hard to find, which is as it should be. Since we are indirectly talking about proper rather than excessive sizing when we discuss trimming, as well as how hot the loads are, this will varying per the actual load and sizing applied.

[Pbr322]

I have reloaded rifle brass for many years. I usually wind up trimming after the third firing, or so as the necks grow after firing and sizing. One thing to keep in mind is that the brass is actually flowing from the case body into the neck due to firing and perhaps sizing. This means that the brass near the case head becomes thinner and eventually will fail and cause a case head separation.

One tell-tale sign is the formation of a narrow, bright ring on the case just above the case head.
I also use an old bike spoke that is bent at the tip, to check the inside of the case for incipient separation. The spoke will catch slightly on the inside of the case if a thin spot is already present and will not catch on the inside of cases that are still usable. I discard cases that show the ring or fail the spoke test.

Case life really depends on the load and rifle chamber, as well as the amount of resizing performed on the case. Try adjusting your sizing die to the minimum sizing that will allow easy chambering. Excessive resizing will definitely accelerate case failure because the brass is being worked more than necessary.

Chamber dimensions also matter. The brass I use in my match-grade .223 bolt rifle can easily last up to 10 reloadings; the brass used in my mini-14 might only go 3-4 times before the necks split, or the ring forms near the head. The match-grade chamber is cut to minimum specs, while the mini-14 chamber is cut much looser to increase feeding and ejection reliability.

[Boolseye]

One tell-tale sign is the formation of a narrow, bright ring on the case just above the case head.
I also use an old bike spoke that is bent at the tip, to check the inside of the case for incipient separation. The spoke will catch slightly on the inside of the case if a thin spot is already present and will not catch on the inside of cases that are still usable. I discard cases that show the ring or fail the spoke test.

Yeah, this ˆˆ