You get what you pay for

[abunaitoo]

Picked up a used car at a great price.
Camry wagon.
A few little things to fix, but the biggest was something wrong with the knock sensors.
They are under the intake manifold. Pain to change.
Made a bracket to mount them outside.
Ordered the parts off of ebay
Sensors I ordered are made in china. Very cheap.
Put everything together, and same problem.
Replaced the sensors with one's made in Japan.
Problem solved.
I keep on getting stuff made in china, and keep on having problems.
Don't know why I don't learn from doing it.
I wounder if any reloading equipment is made in china????

[Oklahoma Rebel]

im sure a lot is, I was stunned when I heard of Winchesters mikoru spl? japan plant

[runfiverun]

Miroku has been making Winchester and Browning guns since at least the early 70's.
I remember Winchester being bent at them for building a higher grade gun and selling it at a lower price [same model and everything] under the Miroku name.

[DougGuy]

The Japanese did the same thing with Fender guitars in the 80s, Fender sent a delegation over there and they could not believe how GOOD they were. They were SO GOOD, that they basically taught Fender America how to build guitars again because the US made Fenders were total **** between the late 60s and early 80s.

[NoAngel]

There is NOTHING inferior about Japanese made goods. NOTHING.
Chinese is hit & miss with emphasis on miss.

Made in the USA doesn't mean what it meant 30 years ago. I can think of nothing Japanese made that can be called junk as a blanket statement. Everyone on earth has produced some form of lemon over the years though. Sadly American goods are starting to come up lemon more often than is tolerable.

[Traffer]

Japanese stuff is some of the best on earth. Those folks know how to make quality. And they have for a while now. As stated earlier, SOME Chinese stuff is good, some is usable, some is absolute garbage. You take your chances with Chinese. I was an auto mechanic in the early 80's. We specialized in German cars. At that time VW was going down the toilet and the Honda's and Toyota's were starting to be quality. Moving up to the late 90's Japanese cars have ruled from the standpoint of quality. There is no car, none that is as good quality as a Honda for the price. Not even close. When most cars are ready for the crusher Honda's are just getting broken in. I have a 99 Civic that I bought new. 230K miles now and if you rode in it you would think it is a new car. Leaks a touch of oil because I overfilled it once and overpressured the seals. I use synthetic oil and have to add a half quart between 5k to 6k mile oil changes. So she leaks a quart every 10,000 miles. I knew a guy that in 2007 had a 99 Civic that used it for process serving in central Florida (putting on massive amounts of mileage) He had 600,000 miles on his and it still would pass for new. If I ever need another car, it will be another Honda.

[buckwheatpaul]

China's stuff is the same c#$p we got from Japan after WWII. Businesses have fallen at the feet of China in the name of greed and cut the throats of American workers.....as long as we are happy to spend a lot of $'s for this cheap c#$p we will continue to get what we have allowed business leaders to do to us! Thus ends my rant!

[jcwit]

Folks, take a look where a Nikon is made next time you're in a store, or where your laptop is from!

[William Yanda]

Smart Reloader has a whole line if reloading equipment......if you want to buy chinese

[rond]

I have a .54 muzzleloader made by Miroku for Sears & Roebuck, it is excellent. Also have a few BLRs.

[DougGuy]

China's stuff is the same c#$p we got from Japan after WWII.

I well remember the cheaply made and really crappy toys and other goods from Japan in the early 60s, I used to hate seeing something that looked not very well made and sure enough turn it over, MADE IN JAPAN all over it.

The Japanese, used profits from sales of their goods to improve their society, their infrastructure, and their manufacturing tooling and equipment, and it did NOT take them long at all before they were world leaders in excellence.

China on the other hand, is finding it more profitable to keep selling the same old **** and pocketing the money instead of putting it where they will improve the quality of Chinese made goods. Some of their manufacturing fields are excellent already, many are pathetic and ruled by greed more than they are motivated to produce a quality product.

I got sent a friend request by a Chinese businessman because of the Cylinderhone.net FB page, he represents a huge abrasive manufacturer in China, and he was very forward about sending me samples of stones they make to fit Sunnen hones and other high end machines. He sent some borazon (powdered metal) and some diamond stones and the quality is remarkable! The price is 1/4 of what Sunnen sells their stones for, and the quality is every bit as good as a genuine Sunnen product.

Many members on this forum have already benefitted from the Chinese made abrasives because they are used in my shop to hone and finish cylinder throats!

[WILCO]

I wounder if any reloading equipment is made in china????

Ever notice how the Chinese war machine doesn't have such failures?

[dragon813gt]

The Chinese will build you a product to any spec and price point you want. Perfect example is an iPhone. There are no quality issues w/ one. I'm not going to defend their manufacturing as a whole. But a lot of the blame falls on the shoulders of companies that are letting inferior products be made under their name. It's my understanding that you need to keep someone in the factories as well to keep quality control up to spec. Otherwise they will cut corners.

[runfiverun]

good post Dragon.
think of the Norinco guns.
they built those 1911's over spec.
instead of 4140 steel they used 5140[? airc] because the spec sheets said 'or better' gunsmiths hate to see them when someone requests a dovetail to be cut for new sights because the frames are so hard on the tooling.

I'm still amazed they can build something and ship it over the ocean and across the country and still meet a price point.
we can't even get a box of oranges shipped 1200 miles without a 20% price increase every time oil goes up 2 dollars a barrel.

[Ken in Iowa]

China's stuff is the same c#$p we got from Japan after WWII. Businesses have fallen at the feet of China in the name of greed and cut the throats of American workers.....as long as we are happy to spend a lot of $'s for this cheap c#$p we will continue to get what we have allowed business leaders to do to us! Thus ends my rant!

I'm sorry Paul. I believe a lot of those businesses would not have survived at all. Which is it, greed or survival?

Vote with your dollars if you want quality.

[GOPHER SLAYER]

My brother had a Honda motorcycle shop for 28 years beginning in the early 1960s. Their bikes became so popular because of quality and innovation that they were about to put Harley-Davidson out of business. Honda got much better performance out of engines that were half the size of H&D plus they didn't leak oil. The last thing Honda wanted to do was put H&D out of business so they sent a team of engineers to Wisconsin to help solve some of H&D's engine design problems. Since that time H&D's fortunes have been hit and miss but they are still here.

[buckwheatpaul]

I guess that I have not been the recipient of any thing of quality from China. I know that Japan got their act together but from China I have see: Toys for our children that had lead in the paint; pet food that was poison; toothpaste that was a health problem; grade 70 chain that stretched an additional foot over what it was when bought; and the list goes on and on....I know that not everything made here is quality any more but that is our fault as is supporting China that hates us and use our dollars to build up their military.....

[dragon813gt]

You can't get away from them. As much as you want to, it's impossible. Anything electronic will have parts made in China. I have a PACT scale because it's made here w/ as many US made parts as possible. But some parts are only made there.

China has already become to expensive and some manufacturing is moving to the next third world country w/ cheap labor. It could end up by one big cycle. Countries come out of the third world while others slip into it. Only time will tell.

As far as US made firearms. The last four Rugers I bought had to go back to be finished. They should have never left the factory but Ruger seems to only care about producing millions per year. I have yet to send a Walther or CZ back for any type of service. I tend to buy the best tool for the money and disregard where it's manufactured.

[Half Dog]

Ever notice how often we repurchase the stuff that was made in China? Shop at Wal-Mart and see how much you spend, over time, for the same product.

[Handloader109]

Well, a lot of good stuff is made in China,and a lot of junk. You give them a price point and they will hit it. $200 For iPhone,or $10 for a cheap phone,your choice.

[abunaitoo]

Stuff made in Japan has never let me down.
I'll not be buying any electronic components made in china anymore.
I have a Norinco 1911. Shoots great. never had a problem with it.
I've never seen any of those Smart Reloader stuff here.
They used to be advertised all over the place.
They still around??????

[jcwit]

I'll not be buying any electronic components made in china anymore.


Then you better never buy another computer, phone, vehicle, home appliance, TV, radio, the list is endless!

[xs11jack]

I started buying Japanese cars back in the 80's. Still buying them. They last so long the drivers side seat wears out before anything else.
Ole Jack

[bdicki]

I worked in China in the early 80's installing a paper machine, the precision tools, machine tools and hand tools that were produced for use in country, not to be exported, were of the finest quality. You get exactly what you order. The people were as friendly and helpful as any other place I've been.

[mold maker]

It's not that "You get what you pay for", but rather you pay for exactly what you get.
Buy cheap and that's what you get.

[Bent Ramrod]

When Japan lost their empire and had to compete on an equal basis with everybody else, they realized they were in trouble. No cheap raw materials any more, and in addition, anything they made was burdened with the "Made in Japan" mark of inferiority.

One major advantage they did have was the US had bombed all their obsolete factories out of existence and was now wracked with guilt, fearful of the Soviet Union, and eager to help them rebuild with the latest engineering and production methods and developments. Another advantage was that the Japanese people were unusually regimented for an industrialized society, so innovations like the American Edwards Deming's "Quality Circles" ideas, rejected and ignored in this country, were seized on and put to work in Japan. Also, Genichi Taguchi's statistical methods for maximizing quality in production processes were implemented.

Amazing to think that fifteen years or so after the war ended, Japan was exporting funny looking motorcycles and flimsy looking cars and pickup trucks that ran and ran, with minimal maintenance, and twenty-five years after that had driven the British out of the motorcycle business and were giving Harley-Davidson and the Big Three car makers in this country a bad beating. But that's what happens when you care about the product you make rather than the money.

China's big advantage is millions of hand workers working cheap. If ever they start using the Deming and Taguchi methods, I for one will expect a flood of handmade double rifles from China some day. Their stocks might not be of the finest wood, and the interiors might not be exquisitely finished, but they would be "affordable" and I bet they would shoot fine after a little customer and importer feedback.

Gripe about China all you want, but they see customer bases that are totally ignored by most of our manufacturers. My $250 Harbor Freight vertical/horizontal bandsaw is not a production machine, and not meant to be, but it is making itself indispensable around here, and has given no trouble. I'd buy a similar one made in America, but the last one made in America was the Atlas, now long out of business. They couldn't make the saw at an affordable price.

I find most Chinese stuff is fine, as long as eyeball quality control is used by the customer and there is no expectation that it will be heavily used. But the prejudices will linger, even as they are eating our lunch in the marketplace. I remember reading a letter to the Editor by an angry motorcyclist who described himself as "a HARLY Man," and complained that the "Jap bikes were so cheap their bolts were hollow." At that point in time, there were a hundred "Jap bikes" on the road to every "HARLY" I saw, and a hundred "HARLYs" broken down by the side of the road to every "Jap bike." The same writing is on the wall now.

[Echo]

Japanese stuff is some of the best on earth.
Lloyd Dobyns gave an NBC White Paper in 1982, IIRR, entitled 'If Japan Can Do It, Why Can't We?', regarding their immense improvement in Quality. That improvement was due to W. Edwards Deming giving a short series of talks up and down the Japanese archipelago on Quality. Did it twice, and the Jappo's listened, while US manufacturers ignored. US manufacturers got wise, and Quality in ALL cars is very high now. Too many examples of Before & After to show here - but I have a personal example of 'Before'. Fifty plus years ago, while stationed @ Orlando AFB, for Christmas we gave our 1-yr-old daughter a wind-up walking squawking duck, covered in cloth, sheet-metal body. The cloth cover came off shortly, and revealed the sheet metal to be a Blatz beer can that had been cut open and shaped, but the paint left on.
I Was a Certified Quality Engineer, Certified Quality Auditor, and also a Quality Systems Auditor (certified to audit Quality Systems to the ISO 9000 International Quality Systems Standard), and that gave me the charm to be hired by an international management consulting company. Worked from Prudhoe Bay to Ft. Lauderdale, Boston to San Diego, and 3 western Provinces of Canada. Interesting job...

[Lloyd Smale]

same goes for a chev. I had a knock sensor go bad on my 06. pain in the but to get to too. You have to pull the intake manifold off. I bought cheap ones twice and they didn't last 2k. Was told to buy nothing but delco replacements by a mechanic. Changed them the third time using delcos and its been 20k now without a problem.