Size/Lube fresh cast boolets?

[DonMountain]

I just got a new mold and cast a bunch of boolets today for my 45 ACP. My question is, I have seen the recommendations about letting cast boolets age harden for at least a week before shooting them, but what about sizing/lubing them? Should I wait the week before I run the newly cast boolets through the sizer/luber? Or can I do that now and then wait the week before loading and shooting them? Or can I load them, but wait the week before shooting them? :Fire:

[waco]

I've wondered this myself....:popcorn:

[Randy Bohannon]

I don't wait just do it when you want, load them up and shoot. I have never waited for them to cure or harden or whatever they do.Zero problems as long all things are what they should be size, correct alloy and functional lube wise.I do cast more than I need at a given time so they do sit for awhile before being lubed and loaded.

[tazman]

I tend to size immediately unless I get extremely busy. If you wait when using a hard alloy or water quenching, the boolits will get difficult to size. That is how I bent the handle on my Lyman 45.
This is also why I like to cast with a mold that I don't need to size the boolits.
Sizing immediately doesn't seem to effect the hardness of the boolits. The sides that get worked still harden by waiting.

[Mk42gunner]

I usually wait to size and lube until I am ready to load, but I am using air cooled WW. If I was water dropping, I would at least size them the next day before they get hard enough to break things.

Robert

[Oklahoma Rebel]

I size right before I load, in fact I size one at a time as I am putting them in the case, that way I know they are clean and lubed, if you are wondering I use a star lubrisizer, not sure if that would be practical with some others, it would work with the lyman 45. I haven't had a boolit alloy with a high enough bhn to worry about it getting to hard to run through the sizer. so unless it is a pretty hard alloy, I would say do it when it's best for you. good luck, Travis

[pjames32]

I usually size/lube within a couple days. Been doing that for 40+ years.
PJ

[toallmy]

I size and lube within a few days of casting , or when I get enough cast to make it worth changing out the sizing die . Although I have some 148 gr wc that I have to remind myself not to lube size because I want to tumble lube with Johnson liquid wax and lee alox as cast . O and I have a few that I want to powder coat that I haven't sized yet just to see if it will fatten them up to shoot a little better . I suppose the testing will go on forever ,

[DougGuy]

Size and lube in the first week after casting, then run the lubed boolits through a Lee push through sizer when you get ready to load and shoot them.

Reason being, as cast boolits sit they will age harden, and with this hardening, depending on the amount of antimony in the mix, they will also grow in diameter. It is quite common to see a .452" boolit size out +.0003" ~ +.0006" larger than when it was initially sized.

Not only will they be quite difficult to size the second time around, there is always the chance that they may grow enough to interfere with the throat in the barrel or cylinder. A loaded round that plunks in an auto the same week the boolit was sized, mysteriously fails to plunk 3 months later if the throat(s) are initially a snug fit on the boolit.

It is because of THIS reason, that I size cylinder throats .4525" ~ .4528" and 45 ACP barrel throats a minimum of .4525" so that boolits will still chamber in the revolver and still plunk in the auto pistol, months after sizing and loading.

The Lee style of push through die has a very narrow band inside the die that does the actual sizing, so it takes less effort to size a hardened boolit with the Lee than it does with the Lyman or RCBS style sizers where the entire bearing surface of the boolit is compressed at the same time.

[tomme boy]

First you have to know your lead in case it MAY grow. Otherwise, it is a 45 acp, just lube them and make sure they fit well. They don't need to be hard. I have shot dead soft without ANY leading. Use a good lube and stay away from the alox. You will have less issues that way

[tazman]

I size and lube within a few days of casting , or when I get enough cast to make it worth changing out the sizing die . Although I have some 148 gr wc that I have to remind myself not to lube size because I want to tumble lube with Johnson liquid wax and lee alox as cast . O and I have a few that I want to powder coat that I haven't sized yet just to see if it will fatten them up to shoot a little better . I suppose the testing will go on forever ,

I used to feel that way. I finally found out that my handguns(38/357/9mm) liked almost anything as long as it was at least .357 in diameter. All would accept up to .359 in the chamber. I just acquired molds that dropped boolits at those diameters so I rarely need to size any more. .357 was the threshold for accuracy and no leading in my guns. Any over that made no difference as long as it would chamber.
I also found out the accuracy didn't change due to size. They all shoot better than I do.
I reduced the mold collection until I only have the ones that are easiest to load and feed the best in my pistols.

[rancher1913]

how about a part 2 of this question, can you load a sized boolit and let it sit for a good length of time prior to shooting and not have it get out of size. how long will you store completed rounds before you use them.

[2ndAmendmentNut]

For me it depends. Most of my reloading is done in short 30mins burst here and there throughout the month, with the occasional marathon casting session once or twice a year. Worrying about aging boolits is not really an issue for me. On my smokeless loads I use a thompson blue angel. TBA is a great hard lube, and I size my boolits whenever convenient, sometimes this is right after casting, other times it is weeks or months later. For my black powder loads I use a soft homemade lube that has a tendency to migrate off the boolit in hot weather. For my BP boolits I only lube/size right before loading.


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[2ndAmendmentNut]

how about a part 2 of this question, can you load a sized boolit and let it sit for a good length of time prior to shooting and not have it get out of size. how long will you store completed rounds before you use them.

I recently shot a box of my ammo that was over 8 years old. No issues.

At 45acp velocities the hardness gained in a few weeks of aging will have no effect positively or negatively.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[reddog81]

Ideally I'd like to cast, powder coat, and size all in the same day, however that rarely works out. I do each step as time permits.

If you're only waiting a week before shooting the rounds off I can't imagine it will make any difference.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

I like to size/lube ASAP, but sometimes that doesn't happen.

I also like to let boolits age harden (2 weeks to 6 months depending on alloy) before I load and shoot 'em.

[243winxb]

45 acp, cast, size/lube, load, shoot, all in the same day using air cooled bullets.

Oven heat treated, water cooled, is different.

[Landshark9025]

This is interesting. If I HT/Q I size RIGHT AWAY- as in within the hour. If I don't it can be a bear to get them through the sizing die and there's just no need to put the extra strain on the machine. That said, this post has made me think about "spring back".

Suppose you have an alloy with a decent amount of antimony in it- say 3-4%. So you'll have a decent amount of hardness, but it will take a while to sufficiently age up to it. Ruling out HT/Q, just going with air cooled, if you sized some the day you cast them and the remainder say 2-4 weeks later, IF there was any springback, do you think it would be the same several weeks after that? Those going into the die fresh would not be as hard as those that were already aged a few weeks, so I would GUESS that they would have less overall spring back- but I don't know. Never tested it.

Most sizing dies are cut a little small to account for spring back, like .0005". So if you are looking for .358, coming right out of the die they are generally .3575. It is only accounting for this spring back of .0005 where it makes a difference.

Is "spring back" the same as "growth due to aging"? May need to test this.


Size and lube in the first week after casting, then run the lubed boolits through a Lee push through sizer when you get ready to load and shoot them.

Reason being, as cast boolits sit they will age harden, and with this hardening, depending on the amount of antimony in the mix, they will also grow in diameter. It is quite common to see a .452" boolit size out +.0003" ~ +.0006" larger than when it was initially sized.

Not only will they be quite difficult to size the second time around, there is always the chance that they may grow enough to interfere with the throat in the barrel or cylinder. A loaded round that plunks in an auto the same week the boolit was sized, mysteriously fails to plunk 3 months later if the throat(s) are initially a snug fit on the boolit.

It is because of THIS reason, that I size cylinder throats .4525" ~ .4528" and 45 ACP barrel throats a minimum of .4525" so that boolits will still chamber in the revolver and still plunk in the auto pistol, months after sizing and loading.

The Lee style of push through die has a very narrow band inside the die that does the actual sizing, so it takes less effort to size a hardened boolit with the Lee than it does with the Lyman or RCBS style sizers where the entire bearing surface of the boolit is compressed at the same time.

[DougGuy]

Is "spring back" the same as "growth due to aging"? May need to test this.

Interesting question, and it would be hard to document how much of which process is most responsible for the increased diameter of the hardened off boolit.

For all I know, age hardening is contracting of the alloy and as the boolit gets shorter from this contracting, it forces the diameter outward and I have always been under the impression that this is the reason for growth, but springback may factor into the equation as well so, more than likely an alloy with enough antimony to grow as it age hardens, would have enough springback to add to the growth.

The less antimony, the less the boolit will age harden, and the same boolit will have less springback because there is less antimony so maybe both terms can be used in either or discussion interchangeably?

I would also like to think that springback is limited to the molecules on the external surfaces that were compacted when sizing occured, and growth from age hardening actually originates in the interior of the boolit and occurs as a secondary action of the boolit contracting longitudinally as it hardens. Either or both would contribute to an enlarged O.D. some weeks after sizing.

[243winxb]

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?131218-Does-air-cooling-or-water-dropping-effect-bullet-size I find cast bullets dont get larger in diameter after sizing. I have a test sample sitting in the basement for many years.

Lyman FAQ
Q: I have run my bullets through the sizing die, however they do not come out at the expected diameter. These were cast in wheelweights, would that make a difference?
A: Yes, bullets cast in pure lead or wheelweights will come out smaller, bullets cast in linotype will come out larger. This is due to the spring-back of the bullets being sized. The sizing dies are made to produce the diameters using #2 alloy. I find this to be true, but the amount is very small and hard to measure.

[243winxb]

Hardness- tin based alloys get softer over time.

Oven heat treated, water cooled, with 2% antimony may take up to 3 weeks to fully harden. With 6% antimony, fully hardened in 1 day. No softening over time.

[Tenbender]

Reading these post makes me wonder if some are just making it up as they go like the one below. Like 311041 as a 150 gr. boolit. 14 bhn. wheel weights. You need to take some of this with a grain of salt. lol I'm sure some people get bored and just want to make an impression. Some just want to confuse . As the thread below.

Ditto on that.

All this hype about water cooled and heat treatment is just that - Hype. Just because you can do it doesn't mean you should or that it adds any value to the product. ( Some people are more interested in the process of loading than the process of shooting. - I am a shooter.)

I have been using straight air cooled wheelweights for decades. BNH 14-15. There is no use at all for anything harder than that. ( Unless maybe for elephant hunting. )

My all-time favorite Texas brush country hunting load is the Lyman 311041 hollow point ( 150gr ) in the .30-30 over a hefty load of 3031 or 4198 at 2100 fps. It produces 3" groups at 100 yards with from my Marlin with a receiver sight.

Oh-by-the-way - The .44 Mag was originally developed using an alloy that measures BNH 11.

[DougGuy]

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?131218-Does-air-cooling-or-water-dropping-effect-bullet-size I find cast bullets dont get larger in diameter after sizing. I have a test sample sitting in the basement for many years.

Reading your referenced thread, you are saying the sample you have is 6% antimony? In another post you said 6% antimony hardens in about 30mins. I can believe your sample is not growing after sizing, and it may be that air cooled boolits with less antimony change most.

I sized my SBH cylinder throats to some freshly sized and loaded 310RF boolits, and a few months later only half of the rounds would chamber. I would definitely say that there was some growth after sizing and these were air cooled 50/50+2% soft enough to scratch with a thumbnail. I have since seen other boolits do the same thing but again I don't shoot hard alloys so maybe the metal I am dealing with has the most potential for growth and my results vary from hard cast boolits?

[Dusty Bannister]

If you have one, check page 58 of the Lyman Cast bullet handbook, 3rd edition. Predicted physical characteristics of bullets cast in various lead alloys.

45 pistol Ly 452374 WW .4523" Sized in .451" die predicted dimension .4507" Linotype predicted dimension .4514"

It appears that this would suggest a spring back based upon hardness of .0007". That is just not a lot of spring back if you spread it between the stated hardness of 9 BHN in the article for WW and 22 BHN for linotype. But yes, there is spring back, but probably not all that much of an actual affect unless you have matched cases, snug chamber and carefully size every bullet. But if you are one to just cast, and load (perhaps powder coat without sizing) and shoot, there probably is going to be a lot more variation. And this would be exacerbated by using mixed head stamp brass and brass from different lots.

Now comes the discussion of hardening and "Growth" that may or may not occur in addition to spring back. Loosely wad up a sheet of paper and leave it on a table for a day or so. It will slowly unfold, to a point. Perhaps the alloy spring back is not as rapid as some seem to think? With cast bullets there is a minimum diameter of the bullet needed to fill the grooves to prevent gas cutting. And there is also a maximum diameter that combined with case neck thickness that will either chamber safely and release the bullet correctly, or not. If there is not sufficient clearance, pressures spike. So there is a range of diameters that will correctly function in a firearm. It is better to know that there is a tolerance that must be recognized and know that one or two points on the hardness scale will not blow out your accuracy potential. Do not let the burden of these elements overtake your practical experience. Yes, there is theory and there is practice.

[243winxb]

http://www.totalmateria.com/Article88.htm

[243winxb]

http://www.freepatentsonline.com/5464487.html

[dragon813gt]

I've cast in the morning and shot them in the afternoon. I've also cast, water dropped and sized weeks later. They are definitely require more effort to size. But I was still able to size them. You can get hung up on so many minuscule aspects when it comes to cast bullets. All that does is take away trigger time.

[DougGuy]

You can get hung up on so many minuscule aspects when it comes to cast bullets. All that does is take away trigger time.

Very true, but nothing takes away trigger time like rounds that won't go all the way into the cylinder. That ain't miniscule!

My contributions to this thread were to bring attention to the fact that boolits DO grow, even after sizing, and make light of the importance of having them fit in the cylinder after such growth.

[runfiverun]

and that the make-up of the alloy will affect their growth over time.
copper/calcium/bismuth will all affect the growth after casting.

the best practice is to cast them and then size them right before use.
this can be difficult with water dropped alloy's.
letting them sit long enough to stabilize will allow the non sized parts to settle in will give you the best picture of what's what in the long term.

another question popped up about long term use.

I'm shooting stuff I cast in the late 80's and has been loaded since at least the early 90's if not sooner.
I have a little jar of boolits I cast in the 70's that will be opened in a few more years and shot in their 50th year. [2023]
I recently picked up some stuff fromcmy Pop place that he has had since god knows when.
it has to be from the 60's or maybe a bit sooner and I have put some of them down range with no noticeable difference from the same mold and my newer casts.

[popper]

Spring back is due to compression of the lattice that recoils immediately. Sb grows to clumps over time and forms a larger lattice.

[Tenbender]

This is very interesting. I have noticed larger boolits in my .359's. Like .3595. I just thought I read my caliper wrong or didn't have it zeroed. I'm going to check some others.
Thanks guys !

[DougGuy]

This is very interesting. I have noticed larger boolits in my .359's. Like .3595. I just thought I read my caliper wrong or didn't have it zeroed. I'm going to check some others.
Thanks guys !

Oops there's the first place a mistake will creep in, using calipers. Hunt you down a decent used Mitutoyo 0"-1" mic that reads in .0001" increments, I think I paid $35 for mine on ebay, you can find them there all day long for that. digital readout, and I use it in a stand that you clamp it in which leaves hands free. Can't recommend this setup any higher, it works and takes most of the err out..

[Half Dog]

I size mine after a couple of weeks or longer if I still have some coated. I use the Hi-Tek coating and I don't have to exert much force to size them. I'm not sure I would notice any difference if I didn't wait the 2 weeks but this is a routine that I'm into.

[jlchucker]

I have a partial box of 30-30 ammo that has a label indicating that I loaded this ammo in 2003. Back then, as now, 90 percent of my boolits were 50-50, wheelweight and old lead pipe. Those rounds still chamber in the rifle that I loaded them for, and the boolets are tight in the case. I tried a few out a couple of days ago, and the rounds were still really tight cloverleafs. All of this expansion and contraction of aging lead is not one of the things keeping me awake at night. Oh-one other thing--the boolits used in those cases had gaschecks. Since I'd never bought gaschecks from Blammer back in 2003, the checks had to have been Hornady.