Powder reminder

[tomme boy]

I have been hanging out at the local public range a bunch lately. I have noticed a trend going on.

Blackhorn 209 powder.

While it works great for its intended purpose, I have been seeing a BUNCH of powder that has gone bad. Just this week alone, 4 people were at the range trying to find out why they missed a deer they shot at. They are all using around 100-110grs of powder. It should NOT sound like 30grs of powder being fired. It sounds like a weird bloooooooop. when it goes off.

Each one of them I talked to and they said the powder was 2-3 years old and has been stored in their house which has AC and heated.

I have not had this problem with real black. YET! But I have had it happen with Pyrodex. One reason I do not use the fake stuff anymore. But it has its place. Each time the above people went and got a new unopened can the problem went away.

So take this message for what it is worth. You owe it to the animal you are hunting to have new powder each year.

[ShooterAZ]

According to the BH209 website, the powder is supposed to have a very long shelf life. I had one blooper, but it was because I didn't seat the bullet to compress the powder, my fault. The main thing with this powder is to have a perfectly clean flash channel (use a 1/8 or properly sized drill bit by hand), and use magnum 209 primers. The 209 primers that are designed for muzzleloaders (T7 etc) don't have adequate oomph to ignite the BH209. So far, I am quite impressed by the performance of this powder.

[tomme boy]

That is all fine but I know contaminated powder when I see it.

[ShooterAZ]

What did the contaminated powder look like? I think I have 4-5 cans stored (fresh purchase though). I will want to keep an eye on it.

[rfd]

another reason to stick with black rather than a smokeless sub. bp lasts Forever .......

[rodwha]

T7 also has been said to go bad over time. The idea of dropping dessecant packs into an opened bottle sounds good. Certainly can't hurt. Even those oxygen eaters you find in beef jerky packages may help.

I use percussion guns and intend them for hunting, including my revolvers. And because of those I have a minimum power requirement that most powders cannot achieve. At that time I was sorely against ordering powder and wasting money on a HazMat fee so I bought 3F T7. These days I order 3 bottles from Grafs at a time and get Olde Eynsford as well.

I was spending hours at the range per visit and going no less than once a month so keeping an opened bottle of T7 wasn't a big deal. I did drop a dessecant pack in regardless. But we moved far away from my convenient outdoor range and so it's been a little over two years since I've been shooting. I'm quite curious what I'll find as a bottle has been opened for that long, and one revolver has been loaded with T7.

Long story short pass along the idea of dessecant packs as it may just help them. Or tell them to shoot much more often.

Or tell them that Swiss or Olde Eynsford by Goex gives similar velocities compared to T7 and BH209.

[reivertom]

I'll be using the real stuff until some politician bans it from sale. 600 years is a good trial period.

[ShooterAZ]

I like the "real stuff" in my caplocks, it's all I use in them. I also like Blackhorn 209 in my inlines. It's super clean and gives great accuracy. I won't be buying any form of Pyrodex from now on.

[triggerhappy243]

I have to say I must be the exception to the rule here. I use pyrodex. have been since 1981. I have never had any of my powder go bad. I would like to see others provide examples as to what it looks like. Also, what is that sample of powder's climate conditions like. I have an open can right now that is 12 years old.

[Hanshi]

Another reason I only use black and don't buy any subs. It seems there are problems or concerns involving all the subs especially over time. Black is still good even after centuries of storage.

[Whiterabbit]

I also gave up on all subs except for BH209. It's worth trying to make work. If you fail to ignite the powder it does indeed bloop out the barrel via 209 primer strength which is substantial. Its only weakness.

I've thought about making some homemade pellets, 10-20 grains of real BP to drop down the barrel then put the 209 on top. That would solve the ignition reliability for sure.

[Omnivore]

Just a thought here; why assume that the powder went bad? The first assumption should be that the cleaning and loading procedures are at fault; a little bit of oil left in the flash channel for example. Did your buddies snap a cap and wipe out the powder chamber after cleaning and prior to loading? I've witnessed a guy using real black, having the same problem, and it turned out to be that his breech chamber was oily. Leaving a gun loaded with soft lube in contact with the powder will do the same thing. I've experienced that myself.

And so it is always easier to blame the powder manufacturer, rather than to blame your own practices, and thus never really understand the problem. Anecdotes like this, with no serious and careful experimentation to provide real proof (or even any mention of any such), will further reinforce your belief, and further remove you from the truth of the matter.

And so it is a simple formula; Assertion = powder goes bad over time. Question; How could one prove that one way or the other? Design a test. Post that test on line, asking for input. Alter test design accordingly if necessary. Run test. Post results. Ask others to repeat your experiment to see if they produce the same results. Now, maybe, you're close to getting the facts of the matter.

Same goes for the assertion that a little oil in the flash channel will seriously degrade the shot. Unlike the "powder-goes-bad-over-time" assertion, that one has been well documented, but you can still do your own tests to confirm it for yourself-- Clean the gun throrughly, makig absolutely sure that there is no oil or soft lube in the breech area. Snap a cap or two and wipe out the breech again. Then remove the nipple and fill it with oil. Reinstall it, load and attempt to fire. "Ka....bloop!" Stuff like that. You may need to repeat the experiment several times, waiting different times between loading and firing.

To recap; my first assumption, when a shot goes wrong, is that I did something wrong. I then proceed to find out, understand, and correct, what I did wrong. I seek to find out who else to blame only after exhaustive experimentation and inquiry, but it rarely if ever comes to that because I generally find out that it was me all along.

[johnson1942]

its a fussy powder but i wouldnt use anything else. its fussy in that it needs a hot flame. and the second thing is a bullet in front of it with resistance. if their is no or not much resistance in front of it, it just fizzes. real black and or blackhorn 209 powder is the only powder i would ever consider useing.

[mooman76]

I have Pyrodex that's 20+ years old and still works fine.

[rfd]

i'm highly opinionated in that black powder is just SO much better in every way than any white powder wannabe - except buying it.

getting black powder locally is probably not doable for most, including myself. no big deal, just mail order. i buy in 25# lots and there's no shipping or hazmat fees that way. and the price tag per pound is less than list, to boot.

only need a few pounds? check in with local clubs or go to local ranges and seek to join in on a group buy.

once you go black, here's no turning back (to the bp sub world). :)

[ShooterAZ]

Just a thought here; why assume that the powder went bad? The first assumption should be that the cleaning and loading procedures are at fault; a little bit of oil left in the flash channel for example. Did your buddies snap a cap and wipe out the powder chamber after cleaning and prior to loading? I've witnessed a guy using real black, having the same problem, and it turned out to be that his breech chamber was oily. Leaving a gun loaded with soft lube in contact with the powder will do the same thing. I've experienced that myself.

And so it is always easier to blame the powder manufacturer, rather than to blame your own practices, and thus never really understand the problem. Anecdotes like this, with no serious and careful experimentation to provide real proof (or even any mention of any such), will further reinforce your belief, and further remove you from the truth of the matter.

And so it is a simple formula; Assertion = powder goes bad over time. Question; How could one prove that one way or the other? Design a test. Post that test on line, asking for input. Alter test design accordingly if necessary. Run test. Post results. Ask others to repeat your experiment to see if they produce the same results. Now, maybe, you're close to getting the facts of the matter.

Same goes for the assertion that a little oil in the flash channel will seriously degrade the shot. Unlike the "powder-goes-bad-over-time" assertion, that one has been well documented, but you can still do your own tests to confirm it for yourself-- Clean the gun throrughly, makig absolutely sure that there is no oil or soft lube in the breech area. Snap a cap or two and wipe out the breech again. Then remove the nipple and fill it with oil. Reinstall it, load and attempt to fire. "Ka....bloop!" Stuff like that. You may need to repeat the experiment several times, waiting different times between loading and firing.

To recap; my first assumption, when a shot goes wrong, is that I did something wrong. I then proceed to find out, understand, and correct, what I did wrong. I seek to find out who else to blame only after exhaustive experimentation and inquiry, but it rarely if ever comes to that because I generally find out that it was me all along.

^^^I agree 100% with this. Dirty/clogged/oily flash channel is suspect in my opinion, not the powder. If BH 209 powder was going bad all over the place, I'm sure we would be hearing about it and we're just not. The OP says he knows "contaminated powder" when he sees it though...

[Squeeze]

Its not the powder. BH is non hydroscopic (does not absorb moisture) they either have a clogged breechplug, eroded flash hole, or the load was not seated. Blackhorn does not go bad, BUT it does clog a breechplug with carbon, and erode a flash hole quickly. It also requires a firm bullet seat, and wont tolerate gas leaks. Theres a learning curve to using it, but most of the top inline competition shooters use it. Plus, with a stout load, you will probably only get 200-400 shots, and sometimes only about 100 before it erodes the flash bushing to out of spec. This causes a (typically sudden) loss of accuracy and performance. It will also do as described with a loose fitting projectile. it can cause a slow burn, and unused powder, unlike most blacks, that will pressure spike on an unseated load.

[tomme boy]

Just a thought here; why assume that the powder went bad? The first assumption should be that the cleaning and loading procedures are at fault; a little bit of oil left in the flash channel for example. Did your buddies snap a cap and wipe out the powder chamber after cleaning and prior to loading? I've witnessed a guy using real black, having the same problem, and it turned out to be that his breech chamber was oily. Leaving a gun loaded with soft lube in contact with the powder will do the same thing. I've experienced that myself.

And so it is always easier to blame the powder manufacturer, rather than to blame your own practices, and thus never really understand the problem. Anecdotes like this, with no serious and careful experimentation to provide real proof (or even any mention of any such), will further reinforce your belief, and further remove you from the truth of the matter.

And so it is a simple formula; Assertion = powder goes bad over time. Question; How could one prove that one way or the other? Design a test. Post that test on line, asking for input. Alter test design accordingly if necessary. Run test. Post results. Ask others to repeat your experiment to see if they produce the same results. Now, maybe, you're close to getting the facts of the matter.

Same goes for the assertion that a little oil in the flash channel will seriously degrade the shot. Unlike the "powder-goes-bad-over-time" assertion, that one has been well documented, but you can still do your own tests to confirm it for yourself-- Clean the gun throrughly, makig absolutely sure that there is no oil or soft lube in the breech area. Snap a cap or two and wipe out the breech again. Then remove the nipple and fill it with oil. Reinstall it, load and attempt to fire. "Ka....bloop!" Stuff like that. You may need to repeat the experiment several times, waiting different times between loading and firing.

To recap; my first assumption, when a shot goes wrong, is that I did something wrong. I then proceed to find out, understand, and correct, what I did wrong. I seek to find out who else to blame only after exhaustive experimentation and inquiry, but it rarely if ever comes to that because I generally find out that it was me all along.



I was was there and I have a pretty good idea about BP and the fakes. I have been doing this since I was 12 years old when I built my first ML. I have had problems only a few times. And it has always led back to old pyrodex. Thats why I only use real black now. If you are using the 209 powder it has nothing to do with how it works, it is because you are LAZY. Real black will always give better accuracy over the fake junk. Why do you think the target shooters use it. If it is hard to ignite then the consistency will NEVER be there to make your gun shoot to its potential.

Straight from bh209 web:
In contrast to other muzzleloading propellants, Blackhorn 209 will remain consistent and reliable for an extended period of time when properly stored.

See that when properly stored???? but they also state:
Blackhorn 209 is virtually non-hygroscopic. Changes in temperature or humidity do not affect performance. Blackhorn 209 will not setup or degrade like some other propellants. Shelf life is essentially unlimited.

So which is it? If it is NOT affected by heat or humidity then storeage should not be a problem.

[tomme boy]

Oh and yes one can was clumpy so I DID SEE IT!

[koger]

That could have been poor storage, you are taking the guys word the jug was on tight, stored correctly, etc. I finished a can last week, that I opened last January, after picking it up when out west hunting with Johnson1942! It was in my shop, which is insulated, but not climate controlled. No issues at all, have done nothing to my breechplug. I clean my inlines out with brake cleaner, several patches, and dry them out well, snap 2-3 primers prior to shooting, with a ramrod run down the barrel, and a white cleaning patch on it, this will show the black from primer burn, plus blow any oil into the patch! I do the same with my percussion sidelocks, when using holy black, and never have any misfires either!!!I am not saying blackhorn 209 is more accurate, but just as accurate in my modern ML's. See the post I made about shooting 300grain slugs, out to 300yds, and shooting under MOA, or less than 3 inch groups at 300yds. A guy did not believe me this past weekend, came and watched me try out the 300 grain slugs at 250yds, 2 nudging each other, next to the X and one within a inch, well under MOA! He left muttering to himself, after asking where he could get some BH 209. My load over a chronograph showed 2030fps average for 3 shot group. That is cooking my friend, and you would have to shoot a whole lot more holy black to get those speeds and trajectories, if possible, and would kick like hell! I know I will be driving over 1500 miles to go hunting with Roger in a month or so, and I am going to take what I have complete faith in, which will be loaded with BH 209. I lover regular black powder for most of my shooting, but for long range velocity, stored energy, and accuracy, for that one shot I might get on a trophy Mule deer, I am sold on this stuff. I have never had any issues with BP, or BH 209, have had numerous issues with pyrodex, triple 7, Jim Shockey Gold to name a few, mostly clumping up, sucking up moisture, and hang fires. I live in S Central Ky, close to Tenn. and we are really humid, so if I was going to have trouble with it, I would have, I think.

[Squeeze]

Oh and yes one can was clumpy so I DID SEE IT!

I have soaked a shot vial of Blackhorn powder in water, then dried it on paper towels and it returned to its original form, and shot, no misfires. It is uniform to the bottom. No last few shots fine powder at the bottom of can. If you saw clumpy Blackhorn powder, it was contaminated with an oil. So, that person had to try to ruin his powder.
and your rant about BH shooters being lazy? and less accurate shows your lack of experience with it. Look at the results from the last few inline competitions at friendship. BH shooters won, and matched or broke all previous records for accuracy. But hey, if yelling and ranting is your thing, by all means carry on. enjoy.

here is one test, albeit from an unreliable source, but you could find several similar with a quick search. http://namlhunt.com/bh209hunterblog/when-it-comes-to-moisture-resistancehow-does-your-powder-stack-up-to-blackhorn-209

[OverMax]

Its quite possible to market a batch of bad product. Many shooters just don't report their defective powder to its manufacture. (To much bother.) So there's no registry of it> being?
One item as I recall to see good ignition and peak performance pressures depends on the powders compression. Some powders require a tight tamping others a light tamp. If I were shooting a Substitute or Black even. I would make it my business to fine out what my loose powder requires in its tamp down. The best place to pose such a question.>the manufacture.

[Tar Heel]

I have to say I must be the exception to the rule here. I use pyrodex. have been since 1981. I have never had any of my powder go bad. I would like to see others provide examples as to what it looks like. Also, what is that sample of powder's climate conditions like. I have an open can right now that is 12 years old.

Agree completely. I have an open pound of RS that I have been dipping into since 1989. Still works fine. All my Pyro-P has always worked fine. With proper storage, this stuff lasts decades. I have been teaching BP Pistol & Rifle for 40 years and use Pyrodex for safety during those courses since it is less "explosive" than black. I have never, and I mean never, had a "blooper" or similar problem with containers of Pyrodex stored unopened or opened for years.

[FrontierMuzzleloading]

Poor cleaning and lack of knowledge of BH209 is what the main issue is when having hang fires/misfires.

BH209 will not absorb moisture, it has a coating on it. Put in water over night, it will not melt down, it will not crush into a fine powder, it is super hard and impossible to crunch up, unlike BP and the other subs.

[FrontierMuzzleloading]

again this might help the new shooter see how important it is to de-carbon your breech plug when using BH209. This rifle was headspaced by me to take up all primner blow by ( another important factor for reliable bh209 ignition)

With a clogged up breech plug, accuracy is compromised as well as the possibility of ignition failure. Flinters might experience hang fires, no fires due to a clogged touch hole they failed to pick, sidelock shooters the same thing with cap residue clogging the flash channel. In the end, Keep it clean and free flowing and all will be good to go.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V7Z3bJ849pc

[koger]

As stated before, it is usually poor maintenance, not following manufacturer's directions on the powder. I have found Pyrodex to be one of the most moisture absorbing powders out there, here in S Central Ky, where summers are very humid, 75-85%, right now just checked and is at 58%. I did nothing but use the prescribed primers, degreased barrel and breechplug well, ran 2 dry patches down the barrels at the end of both shooting sessions. Taking them down for a good cleaning tomorrow, then packing them up!!

[johnson1942]

once when i was talking by phone to the blackhorn 209 powder rep he told me to make the 209 powder flow easier out of a powder horn to mix a heaping teaspoon of graphite powder with each new batch. just pour it into the container and shake it up. i just changed powder horns to a larger diam. spout. again, other than the cost it is the best powder i have ever used. 2 brothers shoot modern bolt action inline with paperpatched bullets 45 cal. at 500 yard contest back east some where. they call me about once a year to keep contact. they win the match every time with the 209 powder. they get the bullet going over 2200 ft. per second. they use a bullet that is about 20 to one with a long nose and a cupped base. barely weighs 400 grains. with every powder or gun you just have to learn how to use it and not vary from it.

[Col4570]

I have converted my Percussion Guns to take Top Hat Military Caps.That extra Power often clears any obstructions.Th smallest amount of Oil at the Breach can Bugger up your ignition.My Original Whitworth Rifle is a devil for Blocking after Wiping so I have taken to wiping after loading and that has cured the problem.I have also taken to using diluted Windscreen Washer liquid on a Cleaning Patch barely dampened.All part of the sometimes frustrating art of Black Powder Shooting.Black Powder here is easily available,I prefer it to the equivalents.