Alloy troubles and shooting molten lead

[VintageRifle]

Hello,

On Sunday I tried some plain base plinking loads in a Savage Enfield No4 Mk1* with two groove barrel and also a Mosin Nagant M91/30.

Basic Load Data:
9gr Trail Boss
185gr Lee C312-185-1R bullet without gas check.
Lee Liquid Alox

Velocity of load averaged 1190fps.

My alloy is soft, does not lead the bore when used with a gas check and lubed with Lee Liquid Alox. Groups about 3 inches or so at 50 yard with the Enfield and 18gr of 2400. These are moving about 1500fps which is probably too fast for the alloy. Barrel does not lead and all looks good other than the groups.

The Mosin Nagant did well with a gas checked version and 16gr of 2400. No leading, shot very low at 50 yards. Not sure what group was, as it missed target and backing.

The above was a bit of background.

Now, when using 9gr of Trail Boss and the same bullet without gas checks, the bullets would actually melt in the barrel and hit the target with a splat. Closest thing I can say is the bullet looked like bird crap hitting the ground. Just splattered.

Now, I also had some Lee C312-155-1R bullets sized down to .309 for the Swiss K31. I had done these awhile back and gas checked the bullets. However, we were testing Trail Boss so I used 9gr of Trail Boss under these 155gr bullets in my K31. These did not go splat, did not lead the bore, and grouped fairly nice at 50yds.

I have no photos of the targets that the Enfield and Mosin Nagant had shot as as they all missed the target. I do have photos of the K31 targets.

Questions:

1. Why would my alloy melt in the barrel? Is it possibly I have an alloy very high in tin? I was basically shooting liquid alloy out the barrel.

2. Would paper patching correct this problem or should I just stick with my gas checks until I am out of his alloy?


Some Stats on the barrels:

Enfield .304 X .315: Bullet Sized to .3145
Mosin Nagant .301 X . 313: Bullet sized to .3145
K31 not known at this time.

Comments and Suggestions welcome.

Thanks,
VR

[docone31]

Wow, without a baseline on the alloy, it is only guess work.
I might try, paper patching on the Enfield. Size to .308 wrap with tracing paper and load unsized. Without a gas check on a bullet designed for a gas check, if the alloy is real high in tin, there might be severe gas cutting. With paper patching, you do not neccessarily need gas checks. I paper patch that bullet and it does well. I use 4895.
The big difference I see is the use of gas checks. It seems the checked bullets perform and the unchecked vaporize, or at least make slush. Perhaps it might be as simple as the gas checks?

[VintageRifle]

All I know about the alloy is that I bought it at a gunshop that was selling it for use with handguns and that it came from a hospital. Other than that... Its probably just a tin/lead mix.

I do have some photos of 1.5 bullets that I recovered after shooting the same alloy from a Steyr M95. Bullet was gas checked. No rifling on the nose that I recovered, and the intact bullet has rifling, but was either washed at the base when it impacted the dirt or was vaporized as it went down the barrel with the check saving the rest.

The images can be seen in this post on SR.com.

http://www.surplusrifleforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=93&t=34156

[Ricochet]

I've previously posted how I shot some wheelweight alloy plain base boolits at about 2000 FPS out of my Mosin and got molten lead drops stuck on my bayonet.

[mooman76]

I had trouble getting my 7mm mauser to shoot. In fact I never have gotten it to shoot worth a darn but the first time I took it out I noticed the muzzle was covered with a layer of lead that peeled off just like a sploch of molten lead that you might have dropped on the floor and peeled up. There are some who would argue the point that lead cannot melt in the barrel because there isn't enough time but I like to keep a opened mind about it.

[leftiye]

Good idea!

[VintageRifle]

Late updated but... the alloy does melt at a very low temperature. Not sure what I am going to do with this stuff, but I have moved on to known wheel weight alloy.

[JW6108]

I've previously posted how I shot some wheelweight alloy plain base boolits at about 2000 FPS out of my Mosin and got molten lead drops stuck on my bayonet.

:shock: That is interesting.

Do you think friction was the most likely cause of that? john

[docone31]

That sounds like white casting metal I use in makeing models for casting.
Melts real low.
It sounds like you had gone Hmmmmmm.
Adventures in casting.
I bet they filled out well.

[The Double D]

Trail Boss is known for excessively high pressure for low velocity particularly in large cases. I wonder if there might be a realtionship between the higher pressure and melting alloy

[troy_mclure]

your loading with cerosafe! lol

[Bret4207]

Guiys, stop and think for a second- do you really think there is enough time while the boolit is in the barrel for the heat transfer to take palce and actually "melt" the boolit? No, there isn't. What there is time for is vaporization of the lead alloy by pressure. If the OP had a particularly soft lead alloy, maybe alloyed with some other material not normally used, it could conceivably be such a weak alloy that the pressure (Trail Boss being known for pressure) could easily push past the sides of the boolit, abrading and vaporizing alloy all the way up the barrel resulting in a spray of lead alloy. To me that is a much more realistic and believable theory than the boolit "melting".

I think a gas check would have been a worthy addition. This is exactly why they were invented.

[Willbird]

Guiys, stop and think for a second- do you really think there is enough time while the boolit is in the barrel for the heat transfer to take palce and actually "melt" the boolit? No, there isn't. What there is time for is vaporization of the lead alloy by pressure. If the OP had a particularly soft lead alloy, maybe alloyed with some other material not normally used, it could conceivably be such a weak alloy that the pressure (Trail Boss being known for pressure) could easily push past the sides of the boolit, abrading and vaporizing alloy all the way up the barrel resulting in a spray of lead alloy. To me that is a much more realistic and believable theory than the boolit "melting".

I think a gas check would have been a worthy addition. This is exactly why they were invented.

Bret, I know a J-word bullet gets DAMN hot from being fired, too hot to hold for very long in fact. These were fired from 357 maximum and the chamber-bore pressure was enough for the bullet to get about 10% shorter, these were Remington 158 grain j-word bullets. Some of that heat is due to friction from that long gas check I suppose. But I also fired some 12 gauge Lee pellet slugs(which are inside a plastic wad and never touch the bore) and they got pretty warm too from the drastic reshaping those experience when they are fired. All of the above were fired into polyfill and recovered.

Bill

[44man]

Friction is the biggest cause of bullet heat. I think Bret has the answer, gas is blowing past the boolit from too high of an initial pressure.
I bet a slow powder would help.