Lee Real Wound cavities

[archeryrob]

I just bought a Lee Real mold in 320 grain for my hawken. I would like to have a hollow point, but think a large heavy conical should do plenty of damage. I tried google searching for tests in ballistics gel but could not find any. Anyone have any information on ballistics gel tests or how well it drops whitetail size animals?

[Leslie Sapp]

I've shot those and the maxi balls for years out of my .50 Cal. TC. I prefer the 320 grain.

Loaded with 70 grains of FFF, it will blow through both shields on a big boar hog and leave a fan shaped pattern of blood and chunks of lung on the ground on the off side.

Believe me, it's more than adequate for whitetails. :mrgreen:

[triggerhappy243]

you are overthinking this. White tail deer are not difficullt to kill. place a felt wad between the powder and the bullet and let it rip. Shot placement is more important than a HP.

I have to add, and many will agree...both the round ball and the R.E.A.L. with enough testing on your part, is plenty of oooomfff to knock over a white tail deer. You will need to try every combination out there to find the most accurate load combo for each projectile.

[bubba.50]

if you use the proper soft lead for your R.E.A.L.'s they'll mushroom without a hollow point. and even if they don't, if you don't put it in a spot where a 1/2 inch wound channel won't do the job, havin' a hollow point on the end of it ain't gonna help much.

[idahoron]

Hollow points are not needed to kill big game. In fact they are in my opinion worthless on big game. Now if your into shooting cans of soup or cans of corn hollow points are fun.

[nagantguy]

the wound channels on ones I've used look like someone pushed a half inch diameter projectile made of soft lead through a creature made up of meat and water bearing tissue at velocity. deer and hogs do not need the amount of killing that the big, REALS can produce, somewhere on this very board I have a string of threads about my ultimate accuracy quest with a muzzle loader,Reals after some tweeking came out ahead, the last phase was would they destroy tissue, break bone and create large and reliable exit holes, yes yes and yes.

[triggerhappy243]

Where is that dang like button?

[rodwha]

Have you tried a patched round ball through it yet?

After looking interested in a muzzleloader I began looking into projectiles and their BC values I ran them through a calculator and felt a ball was an extremely inadequate means beyond maybe 50 yds. But asking plenty of questions and asking for proof (and given more than enough) found through experiences of others it's more than adequate beyond even 125 yds with a typical load (above 70 grns).

I'm not done working on an accurate hunting load, and it has done much better with the 320 grn REAL, I have not given up on the ball and intend it for anything outside of large game inside of 100 yds. That is if I can work out a good load as so far it's barely acceptable at 50 yds, though I've not worked enough with it (got lucky with the trial load used with the REAL)..

Oh, and my REAL did horribly without a felt wad showing tumbling with a keyhole, but also about a foot left of center and a bit low, whereas the next few were nearly touching and just below the bull with a wad.

[Omnivore]

Triggerhappy243 is right. You're talking about a fifty caliber, right? Any soft lead projectile you can shoot accurately is plenty up to the job on deer. There's no need to "reinvent the wheel" that's worked for hundreds of years. My son and I have killed near 20 deer with 50 cal patched round ball. Inside 100 yards it'll whack the snot out of them. Use a REAL, a round ball, maxi, or whatever you can get to shoot straight, and you're good to go. Practice out to at least 100 yards. Some go twice that distance in practice, and do well at it. Don't limit yourself. If your barrel has the long, 60 inch rifling twist, then it's. Hilt for round ball. With a medium twist like 48" you should be able to find loads for patched ball, or for conicals, that work well. If it has a faster twist, it was designed for conicals, but may do OK with patched ball too.

If you're looking at heavier game at longer distances at some point, then Idahoron, for one, is a man to talk to. Check out his sticky threads on paper patching. But plain old deer at around 100 yards and less is a much simpler proposition and there's no need to get fancy. Just get so you're shooting where you aim, and then make sure you know where to aim to make a quick kill.

[archeryrob]

Thanks guys, I only aim for the chest cavity or the front leg with a quartering too shot. I wanted the larger bullet for the quartering too shot and the area I hunt is rather thick and a twigs could be in the shot path. My hawken has a 1:48 twist (50 cal) and has been shooting patched round balls and TC Cheap Sabots fine out to 75 yards. I have not pushed my shooting farther as unless hunting the field I really can't shoot that far. My buddy's Hawken has the 1:66 twist and he is amped to try these also. I am also considering buying the smaller 240 grain mold also since it is less than $30 with shipping.

Why the felt pad as the directions with the mold said not to do that. From their website

R.E.A.L. Bullets Lubed Wad
(http://leeprecision.net/support/index.php?/Knowledgebase/Article/View/588/61/real-bullets-lubed-wad)
It is not recommended to put a lubed wad/patch underneath each R.E.A.L. bullet. It should be seated directly over the powder.

So do I really need to get a sizer? Or will the mold be fine as it is?

On the shot cavities, I like to see what the round does. I want to see how effective it is and also how destructive it is. Case in point, my daughter just bought a Howa 1500 in 270 for rifle season. She's not old school like me and likes the newer stuff. I was looking at the round she should shoot and was really liking the Hornady SST. I wanted some videos and ballistic gel and decided it kills great but if she shoots a shoulder we are going to be throwing meat away with that round and just got her the Remi Core lokt.

[Leslie Sapp]

So do I really need to get a sizer?

No, The idea is to use a soft lead bullet that will engrave on the rifling as it is loaded.

[OnHoPr]

OK, since this thread is basically about terminal performance with the general 50 cal MZZLDR is there a difference in terminal performance on any size deer from any angle with 70 to 100 gr of whatever powder with soft lead conicals. Do they all perform the same? From chosen examples, the Lee REALs, the Lee Minis, the TC Maxis, TC Hunters, the Lee 500 S&W, the Buffalo boolits, The Great Plains, The Accurate molds conicals, etc, etc, they are all 50 cal soft lead doing 1200 to 1700 fps. Tell the differences in terminal performance. Are there ones nastier than the others when bone and meat are hit? Is there a particular one that has brought the runs from 100 yd runs to 25 yd runs? Or is it just the style of boolit that the shooter uses and gets better accuracy out of his/her rifle which henseforth uses and kills deer with and post about it in the forums with glee.

[54bore]

Id much rather have a bullet with a BIG WIDE meplat for game animals, hit em with a hammer!

[Leslie Sapp]

OK, since this thread is basically about terminal performance with the general 50 cal MZZLDR is there a difference in terminal performance on any size deer from any angle with 70 to 100 gr of whatever powder with soft lead conicals. Do they all perform the same? From chosen examples, the Lee REALs, the Lee Minis, the TC Maxis, TC Hunters, the Lee 500 S&W, the Buffalo boolits, The Great Plains, The Accurate molds conicals, etc, etc, they are all 50 cal soft lead doing 1200 to 1700 fps. Tell the differences in terminal performance. Are there ones nastier than the others when bone and meat are hit? Is there a particular one that has brought the runs from 100 yd runs to 25 yd runs? Or is it just the style of boolit that the shooter uses and gets better accuracy out of his/her rifle which henseforth uses and kills deer with and post about it in the forums with glee.

Here's the problem:
I've been using my rifle for over 30 years and have killed many head of hogs and deer, with the occasional squirrel, turkey or rattlesnake thrown in. I have never recovered a bullet from anything I've shot with it.
All I can say is that it makes a big hole going in and out and they usually don't go very far.

[bgmkithaca]

In all my years of hunting with a muzzle loader only one bullet has been recovered. It was a .45 caliber 255 grain maxi-ball that went through about 15 or 16 inches of spine in a straight on shot at a whitetail- it expanded to about 70 caliber and retained most of its weight, don't remember how much weight it lost but it was not a large amount. If it can take that kind of performance and still be in one piece I don't think that more bullet was needed, forget about using hollow points- a flat nose will give more performance that you need for shock and tissue damage. Don't over think it and take what gun writers say with a large dose of salt. 53 years with a muzzle loader has taught me a lot.

[rodwha]

On various forums nearly everyone has said a felt wad was necessary with a REAL. I happen to punch my own wads so I punched some ~.520" that will fill the grooves, and had bought a handful of cast 320 grn REALs to try out.

At 50 yds and using my typically round ball load of 70 grns of 3F powder my first shot without a wad was several inches low and about a foot left and had cleanly keyholed with a straight on sideways hit. Tow more using a felt wad and they were nearly touching and just below the bull. I bought a mold after that...

My rifle is also a 1:48" twist and with the deeper grooves meant for a patched ball.

Try it both ways.

You will need to lube them with some sort of BP lube (I use Gatofeo's #1 for these, my cap n ball pistol boolits, and felt wads, and have been told it works well as a patch lube as well).

I also bought a used 250 grn REAL mold from a forum member here but haven't tried them yet.

[triggerhappy243]

archeryrob, let me suggest this. Try a 5 shot group with and without the use of a felt wad. make every shots conditions identical. document your results. it will tell you what is best for your rifle.

[OverMax]

1-48 twist is capable of shooting all types of conical ball. But none having overwhelmingly great accuracy. Or as I call that 1-48. >The Mediocre twist.
Wanting to shoot much heavier bullet projectiles. 1-30 or 1-28 twist bores are suggested.
I don't shoot a 50 cal._ But I do shoot a 45 cal Hawken. Besides its factory 1-66 barrel I also have a G/M LRH barrel for it in 1-28 .

With the G/M barrel mounted. Shot a 6 point with a 82 volume charge of Gorex 2-F with a Dead Center 240 gr bullet & sabot one time. Deer angling away from me bullet entering behind the animals ribs. I found that deformed bullet on the off side just under the hide along side its neck. Couldn't tell if it was or wasn't a bullet. Dead soft lead just plain flatten out beyond all recognition. The day I harvested that Buck. I knew Remingtons CORE-LOKT wasn't the first or onlyest deadly mushroom in those woods._;)

[Omnivore]

Archeryrob; I've recovered one round ball. 85 yards (measure afterwards), 50 cal, patched ball, 110 Grains Goex 2F, quartering away shot. 25 measured inches of penetration (I used my ramrod to measure through the wound channel). The shot passed through part of the hip, the whole gut cavity, wrecked the liver, punched the diaphram, ruined one lung, missing the heart by around 2 inches, busted a rib or two on the way out and stopped just under the hide on the far side. The ball was in good enough shape that I said at the time I could probably load and fire it again with decent results. The deer was dead. What more do you want?

Again and again and again; a load that shoots accurately is vastly more important than the bullet's terminal performance, because putting the bullet where it belongs is everything. You're already shooting a blankity blank fifty caliber, for Pete's sake.

I too have noticed that the Lee REAL shoots with better accuracy if it has a fet wad under it than it does when seated directly on the powder charge. I don't know why. It just does. I still use the round ball because so far I've been able to shoot better with it. "Terminal performance" of a fifty caliber is not much of an issue at all.

Please believe me, and the others who have far more experience. Get out and shoot, and shoot some more, until you can smack a paper plate from standing at 100 yards with confidence, and that's all there is to it. Closer shots, from kneeling or some other more stable position, will then leave you with a "margin of confidence" and that's what it is all about. Don't get sucked into the Gun Writers' syndrome of focusing on the equipment and the hock cavity gel tests (animals aren't made of gel anyway). They do that to sell magazines, and to sell products for their advertizers, because their entire job focuses on keeping the revenue coming in and they don't get revenue if you aren't convinced that you need the next new, tricky fancy thing...

[Hellgate]

Be sure to have HOT lead for casting the R.E.A.L.s. If the lead or mold is not hot enough the sharp edges on the bullet will not fill out and maybe only the last one will engrave and you will get a tipped bullet and poor rifling contact. You should get at least two of the driving bands to engrave.

[FrontierMuzzleloading]

You don't need a hollow point. Save that for hard lead,jacketed bullets that need the extra help to open up.

[Omnivore]

For them as simply MUST see some gelatin being shot, because millions of deer being harvested successfully isn't proof enough, you will find your magic gelatin answers here;
https://m.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLIGg3pcPWcaJltGCC98OKAWsvPVALUp8Z

You have to exert some effort, but it's right in there. I could save you some time and say that all you'll find is visual confirmation of what most of us have been saying already ("don't bother over such things - your soft lead muzzleloader projectile will do just fine whether it's a patched ball or a fancy jacketed HP in a sabot, or anything in between")

You don't have to speak Hungarian either.

Hint; he shoots gel blocks with round ball and a heavy lead conical from a flintlock ML, AND he shoots gel with a rather major power, modern, big game, smokeless metal cartridge loaded with a jacketed soft point bullet designed for hunting, and there's very little practical difference that would concern the taking of a deer.

There. Now you don't have to find and watch the video, so you'll have more time to spend on what really does matter; practicing your shooting skills and testing loads for accuracy.

[MLHunter1]

This is an old post & I am sure you have your answer by now, but as it is still relevant I thought I would add to this. As most have said a 50 cal ML is a large diameter bullet anyway, so in my opinion as well no mushroom effect is needed. I have both the LEE R.E.A.L 250gr & 320gr in 50 cal. I like the small cheap Wolf ML and either use 100gr of FFG or 70gr of FFFG behind these bullets although I have also used varous pellets over the years at 100gr. (50x2)306007 I use to be a big PowerBelt shooter. They do load easy, shoot well, but when they hit deer they blow up and fragment. At least the HP's I use to shoot. I don't use a felt wad, but do use the Lee Liquid Alox to shake lube them. I hunt woods so my ML is sighted in for 50 yards which covers the majority of my shots. I took a doe last year with the 250gr (dropped where it stood) and the year before that a 6pt buck with the 320gr. That ran about 25 yards and dropped. So at this point I am only using the Lee's I cast. Here is a pic of a 250gr that was pushed out the barrel. Notice the rifling at loading. Now I do have to tap these a bit when starting them in, but once in the barrel I can ram them the rest of the way.

[triggerhappy243]

This is an old post & I am sure you have your answer by now, but as it is still relevant I thought I would add to this. As most have said a 50 cal ML is a large diameter bullet anyway, so in my opinion as well no mushroom effect is needed. I have both the LEE R.E.A.L 250gr & 320gr in 50 cal. I like the small cheap Wolf ML and either use 100gr of FFG or 70gr of FFFG behind these bullets although I have also used varous pellets over the years at 100gr. (50x2)306007 I use to be a big PowerBelt shooter. They do load easy, shoot well, but when they hit deer they blow up and fragment. At least the HP's I use to shoot. I don't use a felt wad, but do use the Lee Liquid Alox to shake lube them. I hunt woods so my ML is sighted in for 50 yards which covers the majority of my shots. I took a doe last year with the 250gr (dropped where it stood) and the year before that a 6pt buck with the 320gr. That ran about 25 yards and dropped. So at this point I am only using the Lee's I cast. Here is a pic of a 250gr that was pushed out the barrel. Notice the rifling at loading. Now I do have to tap these a bit when starting them in, but once in the barrel I can ram them the rest of the way.

if they work for you as you cast them, then you are good. My 50 prefers sharp crisp bands filled with a bore butter type lube. looking close, the bands on your projectile is rounded off. this will hurt accuracy at longer distances.

[Good Cheer]

Anyone experimented for how heavy of a boolit they could get to work in the 48" twist .50's?

[triggerhappy243]

anyone experimented for how heavy of a boolit they could get to work in the 48" twist .50's?

idahoron would be the guy to talk to.

[725]

MLHunter1. -- If you can hit your target well & regular with that boolit, you will have no problem with deer. I prefer a felt wad that increases my accuracy with the REAL bullets. Cast 'em soft. Although I have gotten very good accuracy and quick reloads with Power Belts, I no longer use them because of poor performance on deer. If you hunt with the REAL bullets, you'll do fine. Just find the most accurate load and stick with it.

[brewer12345]

Anyone experimented for how heavy of a boolit they could get to work in the 48" twist .50's?

I never tried more than a 370 grain maxi ball, but they shot well for me.

[BLAHUT]

An accurate shot is the main item here.
Any bullet will bring down a deer with an accurate shot, be it a .22 or a 155 millimeter.

[longcruise]

Anyone experimented for how heavy of a boolit they could get to work in the 48" twist .50's?

I tried the 450 grain 50-70 bullet sized for a fit (not tight not loose) in my 50 cal tc 1:48. It was a long time ago and I don't recall the charge except it was 2f and the recoil was abusive. �� I only had 15 of them and I didn't thereafter purchase the mold (see "abusive"). It was the most accurate conical I ever shot in that rifle.