Am I being vindictive?

[Boz330]

A little background here first. I belong to an IPSC club and have for 25 years. The club has gone through several different locations over the years for all the usual reasons. 12 years ago the club moved to my farm and we have 7 nice bermed ranges and they pay me a small stipen for the use. We shoot 10 matches a year on the 4th Sunday Feb thru Nov.
3 months ago I get a letter saying it is illegal to run a range on agricultural land and I have to close down operations untill it is properly zoned. The club itself is a 501C3 non profit corp so it isn't a public range. Well we decide to do it the right way and do a survey, hire a lawyer etc. Thursday at 6:00 PM I get an e-mail from planning and zoning with the changes that need to be made to the application by Tuesday when the hearing is to take place.
In the process of trying to make the changes Saturday I find out that my neighbors have gotten up a petition against the range. The bluff that we shoot into is the property line for one of my neighbors, me below, them above and there are several hundred yards of trees up there. I tried to talk to the neighbor and work a deal to pay them something for a safety zone up there incase a round might get out. They do have a legitamate concern in that respect and they also had a bitch about the noise that gets to the house wich is about a half mile away. Anyway it seems like they all signed the petition (there are 10 kids in the family). Part of there concern were the kids like to ride ATVs all over the farm and they are afraid one of them might get hit. Our ROs are absolutely ruthless as far as enforcing safety rules just in case and there has NEVER been a complaint about a stray round. Hell I was DQed from a match once.
OK here is my issue, this particular family is running a saw mill on there property which requires Industrial zoning not agricultural. And there are 2 other families that run little roadside stands selling vegetables and plants which also is a NO NO according to the way I read the regs. You can grow it but not sell it from Ag-1 zoning. Do you think I'm being vindictive to point out these obvious criminals to planning and zoning? What is good for the goose is good for the gander.
I guess what really pi$$es me off is that no one called me and said that we have a problem and is there any way we can work it out. Personally I think we could have moved the match to Saturday, taken 1 bay out of use so the noise would be mitigated to a point and it probably wouldn't have been as big an issue.
Because of the legal expence to the club and not much chance of getting the Zoning approved I'm pulling the application. 1 of the complaintents is the county magistrate for my district and lives right down the road. I would have thought that part of his job would be to address situations like this. I have always tried to be a good neighbor to all of these folks but it looks like I'm going to have to be an asshole from here on out. Escaping cattle are a regular issue on my place because I don't have cows anymore and I was the ONLY one who kept up the fences. There will be bills going out for damages to hay and or buildings as well.
And to make it all worth while they still can't stop me from shooting on my property and I can invite my friends as long as it isn't an organized activity. Did I mention I have a friend with a Civil War cannon and no place to shoot it.

Bob

[fishhawk]

well they started to "play by the rules"so if they are doing something they shouldn't be by all means report the " infractions" never know if they are selling contaminated produce

[Jon K]

Vendictive?...........Nah........File a written complaint for Code Compliance, like you said "Whats good for the goose, is good for the gander". Why should thy not need licenses, and meet code? That's the reason for codes to exist.

Jon

[manleyjt]

Boz,

How does that old saying go?

If you live in a glass house maybe you should not throw rocks.

It looks to me like the neighbors have made the obvious errors that I hear daily on issues like these. They forgot that if you complain you better make sure your side is squeaky clean.

I am ever suprised at what length people will go to crap on a good neighbor. Man if you lived by me I would try to be a member of the club so I could come shoot with you.

[Ricochet]

I agree. They need to play by the rules as well. Strictly.

[Boerrancher]

I would have no problems pointing out the violations to the laws, and requesting something be done about it, but before I did, I would go to each of the neighbors and point out that I was going to do it and why. I would tell those with live stock to start looking for bills due to the damage caused, and just lay it all out. Then explain to each of them that there is a simple solution and that is to keep their mouths shut about you sooting, or you are going to put a turd in their punch bowl just like they did yours.

Best Wishes from the Boer Ranch,

Joe

[Ricochet]

I like Joe's idea. Gives a chance for them to back off.

[Junior1942]

+2 on Joe's idea.

[dakotashooter2]

Rules is rules for all. Make out written complaints and make sure the neighbors get a copy. Just make sure you are ready for a pi$$n match.

Note: do this as a separate action from yours. If you had decided to fight it, had gone to hearing and brought it up it may have been viewed as a neightborhood pi$$n match which can have detrimental inpact on your case.

You could also appeal the P&Z interpretation of a "range" or ask for a written interpretation and how it applies to the code. check to see who has the authority to make such an interpretation. Sometimes it may be a separate entity like a board of appeals. Since it is NOT open to the public or daily or even weekly, open by invitation only, and no fee's are REQUIRED (the club make a "donation" for maintenance) it may not meet the intent of the code. Likely the intent of the zoning regulation was to regulate a public or for profit range. Zoning ordinances rely heavily on the interpretation of many uses. There is no way to list every possible use in every situation. The P&Z often has to look at the context of the specific ordinance. In your case it appears that the intent may be to prohibit business ventures other than agriculture. Since you are not a for profit range you may not meet the intent of the code. Zoning regulations can be tricky. In some context if something is not listed it is not prohibited while in another context if it is not listed it is not allowed.

[trickyasafox]

I'd let them know they were going to be reported and report them- assuming I didn't have anything else they could throw back at me.

[dakotashooter2]

OHH I forgot. Get your class III and a couple of machine guns and open up on what was previously your scheduled competition day. They then might be gratefull to allow your monthly get together.

[Ranch Dog]

I'd stick it to them every way and chance I could. NO MORE MR. NICE GUY!

[bruce drake]

I like both of dakota's posts.

Do the research and ask for a delay in the proceedings so you can do a proper response to their 5 day prior notice of changes to the packet. Use the time to dig into the weeds on the petition.

Also are all 10 children of legal age to sign a petition? Sounds a little fishy. You'll probably get a few of those sgnatures voided ala democratic petitions.

HTH,

Bruce

[Pepe Ray]

It's ammazing how peoples ideas change when they pier into that can of worms that they opened.

[no_1]

Bob,

My take on this. I would do as others have stated.

1st) I would ask for the extension so you can read up and prepare for the hearing.

2nd) I would go to the hearing and state that your do not run a range but you have a once a month "gathering" of friends for a friendly shoot, kinda the same thing as getting friends together for a card game.

3rd) If you lose, appeal even if you think you will lose again. You do not want your neighbors to think you are soft and will roll over.

4th) Once your deal is settled, take on the neighbors one at a time pointing out their infractions of rules and regulation.

5th) Research the loose livestock issue. I would think the animals are grazing on your land as they pass thru. There should be some fees you can charge. 125 years ago, if they were on your land, they were your animals....

6th) Every time one of their animals comes on your property, call the Sherriff. He will tire of you calling but will visit the offending owner (who will tire of the Sherriff's visits first).

7th) Call zoning and the local tax collector about the produce stand. I am sure they need a tax license to sell their produce.

8th) Call zoning, the tax collector and OSHA about the saw mill. I am sure they would be happy to visit.

My family has a farm that has been passed down generation to generation for maybe ~135 years. We raise cows and grow hay. It is one of the biggest if not the biggest private owned farm left in the county as all the farms around it have been turned into nice housing developments. Seems those nice neighbor residents of those nice neighborhoods filled with big beautiful houses do not like the idea of our yearly dove shoots. Opening day is always reserved for family / very close family fiends so we can have as much fun as possible before guests / friends are invited. One year those nice neighbors formed a posse then entered the property in mass on opening day to complain about our shooting. When ask to leave they threaten to call the local Sheriff and Game Warden. It turns out they picked the wrong day as my cousin was having none of that. She listened to their complaint, tried to explain that it was a private farm, tried to explain that we had been doing this for years and let them know we would continue doing so as long as we owned the place. She then politely directed them to leave. She allowed them to complain a little more before she sent one of the kids out into the field and within 2 minutes the kid emerged with 2 gentlemen in tow. Those nice neighbors were, let’s just say “a little more than surprised” when they realized they were now standing face to face with the Sheriff and Game Warden who were extremely unhappy they had to stop shooting and come out of the field. Those 2 gentlemen straightened out the neighbors who promptly left with their tails tucked. Word has gotten around about our opening day, we still get the occasional “visitor” but they do not last long….

[txbirdman]

I don't know how things are in Kentucky but in West Texas you do not fence cattle in, you fence them out. In other words it's your responsiblity to have adequate fences to prevent livestock from getting onto your property.

[Boz330]

The biggest problem is that the direct impact area is literally feet away from the property line. If we were shooting in the opposite direction the whole thing could be fought since the bluff was higher and I owned the property for several hundred yards for a safety zone. Unfortunately because of a creek going through the farm there is no way to berm it. The other problem is that we could deplete the clubs treasury on lawyers fees and not have sufficient funds for a move. They literally thru everything they could think of at us hoping something would work. They brought up traffic flow, sewage, lead contamination, parking, what we were going to do in case of a flash flood, etc, etc, etc.
In the picture you can see several of the ranges and those trees on the bluff which is the back of the range is the property line. If a round gets out those trees would stop it, but I don't own them. That is basically the case they have and the one that holds water. The rest of the crap could have been dealt with fairly easily. All of that ground above the ranges in the picture belongs to that family. I guess we should have tried to buy them off long ago.
All of the kids have kids of their own so they are old enough. From what I understand, lots of folks signed the petition that live in the area and go to the church that is close by. I find it funny that for 11 years there didn't seem to be a problem.
Here is another shot of the ranges from one end.

Bob

[piwo]

no_1 posted the "O" word, and about this more research needs to be done. I am 100% in sticking it to these types, and would love to be there when they got served. Take film of the infractions, dates, times etc...

Now, for the OSHA business. Getting Federal agencies involved probably isn't a good play. The very act of shooting, you are putting lead into the ground. Lots of it if you are having matches. It's the stick they convinced our club to move: Feds were going to try and make us clean the lead out of the ground (even though the federal government used it for machine gun training back in the 1940's !) You need to be cognizant of someone's attempt to escalate. The legal liberal bunch love to make everything an environmental issue, and lead contamination COULD be just such an issue. If everyone is on well water in your area, expect some "lead leaching into the ground water table" BS...

I'd not likely let it pass, and would file those complaints about unlicensed or un-zoned businesses. Likely the county will grant them theirs, while stiffing you, but you still get the satisfaction of knowing you irked them. Tax implications could also be fun for roadside stands. Don't let those folks fool you; those stands can bring in thousands of dollars on good weekends alone here. These may not be to that level, but they may bring in hundreds of under the table money....

I'd likely not warn them as revenge is a dish best served COLD. :)

Good luck
john

[Boz330]

I don't know how things are in Kentucky but in West Texas you do not fence cattle in, you fence them out. In other words it's your responsiblity to have adequate fences to prevent livestock from getting onto your property.


I am familiar with open range, as I used to guide hunters in NM. Had to buy a horse that ran out in front of me. In KY it doesn't work that way though. In fact if you don't have an agreement with your neighbor on a common fence you both have to build one. Never saw it though. It only makes sense to share the cost if you both have cattle.

#1, hunting and fun shooting is allowed and they can't get me on that, but they know it is a private club running the shoots and that comes under the Planned Unit Developement designation. They don't have any regulations governing ranges directly, just the recreational use of agricultural zoned land which gives them a lot of leeway as to interpretation. And if they don't interpretate the way you do, you have to get a lawyer and it gets down to who has more money.
Money talks and BS walks.
The dove hunting is what I directly brought up as justification but their lawyer over ruled that as an example. If you have score sheets and safety officers it is organized and we can't have anything like that going on.
I did tell the magistrate regardless how this came out I was not going to stop shooting on my own property that I paid for and pay taxes on. I really like Bruces idea of the class III weapons plinking. Unfortunately I didn't get one back when they were affordable. I do have a friend with a Tommy gun I might have to invite out. Besides that they are just plain fun.


Bob

[no_1]

I stand corrected. After reading John's post I would not call OSHA in. So the next questions are: Will you be able to shoot on your land at all even when this is done? Do owners of the surrounding property shoot or hunt on their land?

Your area looks nice from the arial views. Well thought out with berms. Not to open a can of hateful worms from those that do not like the NRA but have you contacted them? They do seem willing to help sometimes.

R.

[725]

If first contact friendly reasoning results in the blind resistance you are running into, I'd say the game is afoot. It's better to get along in a friendly maner, but that option has been taken off the table. Any animals that come on your property are yours as far I would be concerned. Research every nit pickin', rule, reg, agency, and law and shove it to 'em. Let the law do the work for you. They wanted it, give it to 'em. If the animal waste or farm fertilizer gets into your water supply, sue 'em. If their animals trample your crop of yard grass, go to small claims court. If your county has a leash law for animals, make sure they are all on a rope or call the law. Stand by. Pissing contests usually splash on everybody. But, hey, you have a new hobby.

[Swagerman]

One of all time favorite western movies, Open Range with Robt. Duval and Kevin Kostner...
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
5th) Research the loose livestock issue. I would think the animals are grazing on your land as they pass thru. There should be some fees you can charge. 125 years ago, if they were on your land, they were your animals....
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Them stinking Free Grazers have got to be delt with...harshly, hire some bad boy gunmen like the old cattle rancher did in the movie, beat the crap out of them, and if that don't work then sick the hired hands on them stinking free grazers piss-en all over your land.

Just kidding, got kind of cared away with the wrong side of the movie. :mrgreen:

But stick it to them righteous neighbors.


Jim

[Mumblypeg]

Well now that you brought it up...
I work for a Sheriff's Office. We've had our training/ shooting range in the same place for over 30 years. The county owned the land all around it for years. At one point the county sold or gave the state some of it ( next to the range) to build a new Highway maintenance shop. Maybe ten years ago. We still used the range...
About 2 or 3 years ago, someone at DOT wanted the land that the range was on to "Expand" their operations. The then county supervisor asked us about trading that land for another site that the state owned, an old gravel pit. Now we thought that might be a good location or even a better one and they said they would help build the new berm and all. We asked all the necesary questions about zoning ect.,ect. "No problem!" was what we were told. Now mind you, we didn't start this thing.We already had a range but if they wanted the land and the swap was for more acres, then we would agree to it as long as we had a place to train. It took about two years for all the BS and red tape to go through and the deal was final. Then... it had to go before Zoning...Now there had never been one complaint in all those years but all of a sudden, people come out of the wood work and spoke in front of the zoning board about how dangerous this was and how the law enforcement officers of the sherrif's office were going to be "Baby Killers" because one of those Machinegun boolits was going to get out and over the berm and kill one of the kids in the state park that was a mile away on the other side of the berm. Most if not all of this fear had been created by 2 people that did not EVEN live in the vicinity of the property. They live 3 or so miles away in town! I could go in to great detail about all the stupid things that got said but I don't have that much time. And yes, we told them about all our safety features and plans and how often we would use the range, which was not that often, to no avail. The zoning board voted against it. Now ,we, the sheriff's Office has no place to train and shoot. This leads to all sorts of legal issues. All because we tried to be nice guys and all of this is about and for the very people we try to protect! I suspect that the whole thing started because some clown at DOT did'nt like us shooting near where he worked although I haven't been able to confirm that. Don't cry just yet, it ain't over. I'm looking at another way to skin this cat. We're looking at going back where we were just on the other side of the old berm and building another berm. That's part of the old land so it is Granfathered in as far as zoning goes and would not have to go before the board again. My point is...Folks don't give up anything! There is not any place to shoot around here unless you own your own. I do, in my back yard. My neighbors don't mind, most of them come over to sight their guns around deer season. Now! If it was a golf course! Hell they build them all the time!There was a big stink in Charlotte, NC recently about a Dr. that had a range on his land. People went bonkers over that too. WE have to listen to all that loud crap coming out of other peoples radios... and its OK if people die on the highways but you better not shoot that gun around here cause them things cause peoples to git kilt! I guess I've vented... but hell I've be a cop for 33 years and I have to still fight the stupid public about firearms( it's NOT A WEAPON UNLESS YOU USE IT AS SUCH!) Fight for your range! We'll help somehow. p.s. All this stupid $h-t is costing the tax payers a lot more money but they can't hear.They're deaf.

[monadnock#5]

With the exception of the co. magistrate, none of the others have pockets deep enough to put a skilled lawyer on retainer. Find out who's paying the fees. It may not keep the club on your property, but may illuminate a hidden agenda. Good neighbors don't start throwing stones overnight. Whose pushing their buttons?

[dubber123]

With the exception of the co. magistrate, none of the others have pockets deep enough to put a skilled lawyer on retainer. Find out who's paying the fees. It may not keep the club on your property, but may illuminate a hidden agenda. Good neighbors don't start throwing stones overnight. Whose pushing their buttons?

A good thought, our local range, Hale Mountain in Vt. is struggling with numerous lawsuits. Some tidbits about who is funding these suits has come to light, and it is pretty interesting.

We have won every one that has gone to court, but defending against them is slowly killing us. I hope our fundraising outlasts theirs.:(

[KCSO]

First off you won't get to re open your range nomatter what. Now go really piss off the neighbors and start a contest that will drag on for years. Yeah it's tough that they dumped on you and yes they are being unreasonalble. But they aren't going to get any happier when you complain about them. Trust me I have one of these that has gone on for over 20 years. He pee ed on my fence, his fence is 6" too high, he gave me the finger, He is FOLLOWING ME! Unfortunatly shooting ranges are fair game all over, If you had a tennis court or a swimming pool no one would say a word but SHOOTING! We have been moved out of 3 ranges so far and everytime somebody builds a new house WE get to move. In the current political climate I see little hope. If you force it to a hearing in front of the County Board all they will have to say is we have KIDS and HE has GUNS and the hearing will last 10 minutes.

[wills]

I don't know how things are in Kentucky but in West Texas you do not fence cattle in, you fence them out. In other words it's your responsiblity to have adequate fences to prevent livestock from getting onto your property.

If I recall correctly, it depends on whether or not you are in a fence law county, and that is determined by a local option election. The general rule is the grower of crops must fence livestock out, but the local option election can require the owner of livestock to fence the livestock in.

Also, Bob, what is the law of your jurisdiction with regard to the taking up of estrays? Can you round them up and sell them?

[schutzen]

Boz,

How long has your range been open? If you were open before the zoning laws were in effect, you should be "grandfathered in." In effect, if you were in place and shooting as a public range before the zoning laws were in effect/enforced; tough luck for your neighbors.

Some good people to talk to might be the Bluegrass Sportsman's Club, Wilmore KY (just out side of Lexington). They were formerly the Lexington Rifle and Pistol Club, but were run out of town by a hospital at great expense to the hospital.

[Lee]

Agricultural?? Determine the prevailing winds in your area.
IF you are lucky, and the winds go the right direction, throw up a small barn, and start raising hogs.
Pork is yummy, and your neighbors can enjoy their summers in their backyards with those delicious barnyard smells wafting over their (propane) grills.......Lee

[Boz330]

There is a range protection act in KY and they can't close a range down because people suddenly move in around it. The problem is that first of all I didn't know that we had to be zoned or we would have done it long ago. Then this wouldn't have even been an issue. Technically we never were a range. And we don't predate the zoning regulations. I used to jump and fly at a parachute center that would have been closed down by the neighbors moving in around it but the airport dated back to 1946 so no cigar.
I can still hunt and shoot on my own land and have friends in to shoot as well. It just can't be organized, I know doesn't make any sense to me either. Basically P&Z told me that I had been in violation for the last 11 years. As far as I know they aren't coming after me on that, but who knows. Another reason I don't want to see the clubs treasury depleted fighting this one battle. I might need it to fight this down the road if it goes personal. I've upset somebody with some clout and they are using it. I wish I knew what was going on as it would be a lot easier to deal with.
My regular job keeps me from having much interaction with my neighbors and I don't really farm the place anymore and even when I did I tried to stay pretty self sufficient and not bother my neighbors for anything. It's a character flaw I have to live with.

Bob

[cbrick]

A very familiar story in this thread. I am a share holder of the largest public ranges in the southwest, The Angeles Shooting Ranges (pronounced An-gel-ees for the Angeles National Forest it is in) and we have been fighting a similar fight for the past couple of years. Angeles Ranges is a 100 acre privately owned (the shareholders) shooting complex with six separate ranges. It is surrounded by the National forest with the exception of a small parcel of private land and homes just to the north of our 100 acres separated by a 250 to 450 foot high line of hills.

It has two public ranges open to the public 364 days a year (closed Christmas day only), a 200 foot covered rifle range and a 200 foot covered pistol range. In addition to the public ranges it has private ranges leased to numerous law enforcement agencies, firearm instructors, The Los Angeles Silhouette club and a range leased as a Sporting Clays range. There is also a fully equipped retail reloading store on the property. It has been legally licensed and zoned as a public shooting range since the 1950's with nary a complaint or problem.

A couple of years ago a developer bought a part of the private land north of us and wants to build more houses. It's his opinion these houses would sell for much more if there were no shooting ranges but he has a problem, the range was there several decades before him. There is nothing legally he can do about noise so he came up with a new strategy, bullets are raining down on him and his houses. Weekly complaints to the Sheriffs office, County and Forrest Service even though for over 50 years there were no such complaints. Only two of our ranges shoot towards the north, one of the police ranges and the silhouette club which is also used as the LAPD rifle and 12 gauge slug gun training range. The police range and the police shooting on the silhouette range have since changed the direction of fire and no longer shoot in that direction. The silhouette club has built baffles to prevent any rounds from leaving the property at any angle that could drop a round near this area. Since the baffles have been in place there are no holes in it or the roof and yet the complaints of raining bullets continue.

Careful records have always been kept about who is shooting on which range, what time they start and what time the range is secured and the complaints continue even when we can prove there was no one on the given ranges. A small fortune has been spent on rebuilding ranges, new birms, baffles, range safety officer training and much more yet the fight continues.

Just have to wait and see how it all plays out.

Rick

[Scrounger]

That is a shame, Rick. That is the best range I have ever been on and the people are top notch.
I'd bet this developer with money has a skeleton or two in his closet. I wonder if some money to hire a sleazy private detective to look in his closets might not generate some negotiating material...

[chris112]

Wills has some good information if you are in an open range state (or area). If, however, you are in an area that has a fenceing law; you don't have to fix fence, the owner of the livestock is obligated to keep them on his property. Do the research about this and if you can legally take the livestock when it comes on your land, do so.
Open range is also called fence out in case you are wondering.

[The Dust Collector]

Wisconsin passed a range presevation act IIRC about 2000. A lot of ranges fell to the antis before it happened. Reguardless, Many neighbors of ranges do their best a trying to make trouble. If people don't like the noise or shooting in general why didn't they do some searching about their neighbor before moving in next to one. It's the damned realitors and land devolopers that really need to be taken to task!
DUST

[725]

Typical that the libs and anti's can't stand the paradise of urban life they mandate for everybody else and that they then seek to move out into the country to escape the hell on earth they created. Only to bring their do-gooder ways with them. I really like the pig farm idea.

[wills]

Some idiot decided the Kentucky statues ought to be online in PDF format (possibly to afford the user the greatest possible inconvenience) and I don’t have the patience to open, read and compare these sections, but there may be a starting point in here somewhere.


http://www.lrc.ky.gov/KRS/256-00/030.PDF

http://www.lrc.ky.gov/KRS/256-00/080.PDF

http://www.lrc.ky.gov/KRS/256-00/090.PDF

http://www.lrc.ky.gov/KRS/256-00/090.PDF

[dakotashooter2]

Many of the things listed are reasons why range owners/operators need to be diligent about zoning of the areas around them. First, request to be put on the P&Z mailing list thay way you will be notified of any applications for zoning in your area. Second attend any meetings or hearings that may affect properties within several miles of your range. The point of this is that while you may not be able to influence the P&Z decisions for these properties your concerns go on record. So if a developer wants to zone a residential development 2 miles downrange of your range the risks are noted and if at a later date the issue ends up in court there is some liability on the part of the developer and P&Z for acceptance of those risks.

[Shotgun Luckey]

I like the civil war cannon idea

[3006guns]

Not sure if this will help or not, but let me tell a quick story. My uncle was deputy chief of police in the S.F. Bay area years ago and also a member of the County Sheriff's mounted posse. The posse served as a search and rescue unit but was basically a big boys club with horses...no women except by invitation on "guest days" (wives, girl friends, etc.) Yes, this WAS before the women's lib thing years ago.

Okay, the Sheriff's Office bows to late 1960's political pressure and hires a female deputy. She immediately wants to join the mounted posse and lauches a descrimination lawsuit....a sh*t disturber, no other real reason. Their response? They promptly disbanded as a public unit and turned into a group of "friends just out for a ride". Pretty clever really. You can't sue an entity that doesn't exist. You'd look pretty silly trying to convince a judge that the basis for your suit is "they won't play with me!".

Point is, by being a formal group with a 501 c 3 you are open to the public. As already stated, just give up the non profit status and disband...and BE SURE THE NEIGHBORS KNOW IT. Pain in the butt sure, but then invite a few friends over to your place to try out their "hardware". Let 'em complain....won't do a damn bit of good:mrgreen:. Your only real concern is the neighbor behind the tree line and he would have to prove actual damage by gunfire...not easy to do.

Oh, and DO turn in the veggie stands and complain to the authorities about the cattle!

[Boz330]

Seems one of the guys in the club has a Tommy gun and a Vickers, belt fed, water cooled MG. We are going to get together some Sunday for a little practice. Need to get on the reloading press though. Some of the rumors that were flying around was that this very thing would be going on if the zoning was approved. In reality I had resisted that for the sake of the neighbors. Doesn't apply anymore. Haven't fired any crew served weapons since I was in the Army. Always loved the Maw Duece. Supposedly the Army is going to phase it out after almost a century of service.

Bob

[KYCaster]

Bob, John and I were at the range for a little while today. While we were taking a break to load some magazines, our peace and quiet was interrupted by (GASP!!) the sound of GUNFIRE!!! Someone to your southeast was SHOOTING!! I think you need to complain VERY LOUDLY to your elected magistrate about this unacceptable NOISE POLUTION in your neighborhood. If you care to start a petition to stop this OUTRAGE, I'll be the first to sign.

I also heard the dairy's feed grinder...and somebody's hay bailer...and a couple of lawn mowers. How do these people expect a person to be able to relax at the range with all that noise going on? :roll:

Jerry

[Bigjohn]

It is commonly known as the "NOT IN MY BACKYARD" Syndrome.

The same people buy houses next to airports, foundaries and farms; then complain about the noise, dust and smells.

In this world; it seems that Mr NICEGUY gets shat on from a great height on a regular basis.

IMHO, I would first approach all the neighbours who have lodged against your application to see if compromises can be reached.

1)For example; an earth berm in a strategic position just before the boundary of the properties may help with that neighbour.
The installation of some baffles to prevent boolits from escaping the range.

Basically, see if there is something you can offer to do which would elay their fears/concerns.

2)Do as others have said here; RESEARCH. Bury them in paperwork.

In all of this the big concern is $$$$$, how far you can go with the funds available.

If it does not cost too much $$$, appeal and appeal any decisions against you.

Lastly, as almost everyone has a skeleton in their closet; forget being Mr. NICEGUY, and $h!t in their nests.
I say this because their activities are having just as much of an effect on you as the range is having on them.

Fight and keeping on fighting.

Remember "Robert Bruce" & remember the ALAMO!

Sorry about ranting but keep up the good fight,
Best wishes,

John.

[Boz330]

John, you hit the nail on the head with the $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ part. We could have bankrupted the club to no avail and there wouldn't have been anything left for a move. Unfortunately I was never approached by my so called neighbors to look into how we might have corrected the problem. I think it would have been pretty easy to move our matches to Saturday and taken 1 bermed range out of use, We have 7 and only run 5 stages of fire. That particular option never saw the light of day though.
The county magistrate for my district would have been the perfect arbitrator in this matter but he chose to side with the opposition. This is nothing new, we have been shooting on my place for 11 years, and I've been shooting there for 32. We can still shoot, it just can't be organized.
Jerry, sorry I missed you guys, I got home not long after you left. I saw the the McCubbins family out on their deck when I drove by so I dug out the loudest thing I had, a Garand. Ran several clips through it on the long berm so the noise would be at it's best there in the valley. My wife said it didn't sound all that loud to her so I was a little dissapointed. Might have worked better with 3 of us.
I did get the name of the head petitioner from Mike Armbrust though. Seems she is the same one that got the last Pastor of the Cedar Creek Baptist church thrown out. The current pastor might be on borrowed time as well since he refused to sign the petition. From what I understand she is one of those get in your face busy bodies with no job and nothing better to do. I just have to believe in the addage of "what goes around comes around".

Bob

[Jon K]

Boz,

Document what the head petitioner has said and done with negative impact and fire off a letter to the church's headquarters, (Southern Baptist Convention/ Independant Baptist/ Calvary, whichever) complaining of her disruptive and offensive actions, which are demeaning and discriminatry towards you, your family and friends, that use the range.
Bet that ruffles the feathers........

Jon

[Bigjohn]

I wonder what skeleton's she has in her closet????

I like Jon K's idea; put a bit of heat directly on her.

John

[Boz330]

Several people have brought up using baffles to stop stray rounds from getting out of the range. Does anyone have any pictures or a discription of how these work. I have my ideas but not sure they are correct and they sound expensive, especially for 5 different ranges.

Thanks
Bob

[uncle joe]

I did tell the magistrate regardless how this came out I was not going to stop shooting on my own property that I paid for and pay taxes on. I really like Bruces idea of the class III weapons plinking.

Bob

Bob
+1 on the other Joe's response
I would also have no trouble MAKING them play by THEIR rules. I would also suggest that the magistrate decline from taking sides if he has to have any thing to do with a ruling. As Joe said I would explain to all involved that they are also in a violation of the same rules and this may open a larger can of stink than any of them would like to deal with.

If not there is always pleanty of fuel oil and ammonia nitrate around to play with ( you can easily get the cannon results you want for just a few bucks)
:mrgreen:
I say have at them and give um hell
JE

[Gun Junkie]

Boz330,

The same thing happened to a friend of mine with a private range next to a subdivision. I grew up hearing this guy shoot his 45 for practice while I waited for the bus to take me to school. Anyway, the subdivision gets built and they pulled the same sort of stunt. Complaining about the noise and possible safety concerns. Well my friend heard about the hearing (they hadn't even told him they were going to re-zone him so he couldn't shoot. But he heard about it and showed at the meeting. He got up and said, well if you folks don't want me shooting, that's fine. I won't shoot. But I have been thinking about changing from cattle to hogs. I was figuring on about 500 head on my South border....(of course right next to the subdivision)

I'm here to tell you those jokers couldn't jump up fast enough to tell him they had no problem with him shooting and for him to shoot all he wanted any time he wanted.

I don't know if you're close enough to use that approach and I figure you'd have to be willing to go through with it....the ones you're dealing with may not know what a hog farm smells like!

Good Luck to you. If this isn't helpful, I hope it gave you a smile.

Gun Junkie

[Bigjohn]

My local club has started to install baffles on our rifle range. The requirement is that any projectile accidentally fired at an angle, which if un-impeded would leave the range, after striking the baffle would fall within our range.

To archieve this we erected a set of posts (8" x 8") in two rows; the front row is about 6' in front of the shooter. This row was clad with 2" thick boards, on both sides of the posts from a height of 10' down to a point at which the tallest shooter can still see the targets and the shortest cannot see the area outside the property. Between the two rows of cladding we suspended some heavy conveyor belting material (second hand material).

The principle behind this method is; every time a projectile strikes and object it loses approximately half of it velocity. Each section of material also has a degree of resistance to the passage of the projectile which must pass through three lots of material.

The second row of posts are behind the shooter's and we have to build a roof over with a lot of timber up there to slow down anything discharged almost vertically.

I have some photo's here but they were taken in the early stages and do not show the cladding or benches.

For the three shooting bays we are building it has cost us less than $3,000.00 AUD so far but the roof is not yet on.

John

[Scrounger]

Or if any of your whining neighbors raise sheep, threaten to invite CarpetMan in for a visit...

[Bigjohn]

Joe,

Some photo's of the early stages.

7999

8000

I will try for some updated ones.

John

[Old Ironsights]

It's really easy to prove the "safety" issue is BS.

Just hold a weekend long Suppressor Shoot (if your state "allows" them). and don't do any other type of shooting until the next meeting.

Then, at the next meeting ask if the had any protests. When they say "no" you have them.

It's all about the noise. They aren't smart enough to understand ballistics, but they are afraid of the go-boom.

BTW, here is a picture of the concrete baffle system at the Atterbury Range in Indiana:

http://www.atterburyshootingrange.com/Atterbury_Range_Site_039_op_800x596.jpg

http://www.atterburyshootingrange.com/Rifelpistolpage.html

We have a similar, if smaller system at the State range at Kingsbury FWA.

Almost as noisy as shooting indoors. [smilie=b:

[Boz330]

Boz330,

The same thing happened to a friend of mine with a private range next to a subdivision. I grew up hearing this guy shoot his 45 for practice while I waited for the bus to take me to school. Anyway, the subdivision gets built and they pulled the same sort of stunt. Complaining about the noise and possible safety concerns. Well my friend heard about the hearing (they hadn't even told him they were going to re-zone him so he couldn't shoot. But he heard about it and showed at the meeting. He got up and said, well if you folks don't want me shooting, that's fine. I won't shoot. But I have been thinking about changing from cattle to hogs. I was figuring on about 500 head on my South border....(of course right next to the subdivision)

I'm here to tell you those jokers couldn't jump up fast enough to tell him they had no problem with him shooting and for him to shoot all he wanted any time he wanted.

I don't know if you're close enough to use that approach and I figure you'd have to be willing to go through with it....the ones you're dealing with may not know what a hog farm smells like!

Good Luck to you. If this isn't helpful, I hope it gave you a smile.

Gun Junkie

:bigsmyl2:

This is out in the country and the smell of manure is a regular occurance and the people that are complaining are farmers for the most part.
The only problem with the baffles from the pics is that we shoot IPSC and the firing positions and targets change from match to match, and aren't necessarily directly down range.
John I'm not sure we could do what you guys are doing quite that cheap here. I would like to see the finished product if you get a chance to take pictures though.

Thanks
Bob

[dominicfortune00]

Have you ever thought of hosting a Civil War reinactment on your farm.

A couple of hundred guys running around shooting at teach other with blanks, camping in the woods, may be a cannon or two going off at odd hours.

Massed infantry charges on prepared positions can get pretty noisy.

Sounds like fun.

Good Luck,

dominicfortune00

[Bigjohn]

Bob, The club I am a member of also shoots IPSC amongst other disciplines. We have been told by the PTB (Powers That Be) to baffle the rifle range only. Basically the issue there is a lack of fallout zone behind the berm and the height above the floor of the range at the firing point.

We are allowed to shoot shorter range courses on that range without baffles. The baffled area is set up with two benchrest shooting lanes and one free style bay.

I will be going past the range later today so I will drop in and take some more pic's.

I like the idea of a Civil War re-enactment with blanks and cannon. Weren't several battles fought at night? :twisted:

John

[Bigjohn]

8018
View downrange from behind the bench

8019
Underneath view of baffle

8020
Forward of the line

John