Working on a HP load...'Barrel Lengths Matter'

[OS OK]

Some of you fellas already know that I've been working on a .38 Special load that could be an 'in house defense load' that would most likely stay in the perp and not exit and pass through a wall and injure someone else. I wanted that load for my wife's .38 Taurus 1 7/8'ths snubby. The powder, the quickest I have is the Bullseye. I think I need quick to make velocity in a short barrel.
I've been working with this old Ideal 358-439 HP mold with two lengths of pins included. On these tests the longest pin, deepest HP was used.
I could get only 2/5 rounds to expand using this +P load of Bullseye at 4.4 grains for this 155 grain HP in the snubby...those are in the top row. The lead is 7.4 BHN and should expand correctly around 800 FPS in a revolver. This snubby just can't make the required velocity to get expansion with each and every shot.
Just for giggles I thought I see what the +P load would do in the Smith with the long barrel, they are in the second row...way too much expansion to the point they fragment.
This is still a work in progress...I'm not satisfied with the snubby, will have to find some quicker powder I suppose, but I did find it interesting how a cast HP is almost enough in one barrel and too dang much in another.

179150179151179152

***The two bent ones in the second row, I think hit the side of the test pipe...before mushrooming.

[buckshotshoey]

How much penetration and what did you shoot them into? Water? I would buy ballistic gel, add a layer of denim, and do it again. And buy a few different factory HP's and do a side by side comparison. That will give you more yard stick to measure by.

[OS OK]

The only problem with using ballistic gel is that it takes about $350.00 to set up with enough for two 16" blocks and one mold.
My test method is using a 10' long X 4" PVC pipe filled with water on about a 30* angle leaned on a couple of firewood rounds. I put denium on the front and shoot through two layers so far but on these I used two layers of heavy towels.
The other matter is buying several HP molds, they ain't cheap either so for now I'm stuck with my SWC-HP's for the .38/.357 and the .45 . If I had my ruthers I'd like to have a RNFP type HP with big cavity.
The only yardstick I can muster at the moment is that of making them work by adjusting BHN and powder charge and using the particular workup in only one length barrel in the revolvers.

This is what I got out of the .45 ACP...before trying the .38 Special...these are 9.4 BHN at 863 FPS. These work every time...

179159179160179161

[Tim357]

"I'm not satisfied with the snubby, will have to find some quicker powder I suppose,"
Try a slower powder. Generally the loads that get the most velocity in a longer barrel will get the most velocity with a short barrel length. There was a piece in Handloader magazine about 30 years ago that chrono'd different loads in various barrel lengths in a Dan Wesson .357. Eye opening, to say the least. Unique torched Bullseye, heck even H110, Blue Dot and 2400 beat the snot out of Bullseye with the heavier bullets in the short barrels.

[fredj338]

With any LHP, vel & HP design matter. Even 50fps can cause an issue. A larger HP would get you expansion below 800fps. As a side note on testing. I find water kinda of "hard" on a bullet. Many times a bullet looks good in water & won't expand in gel or wetpack. Try filling the tube with newspaper & water. Yes, you'll get more vel with something slower like Unique. More blast & flash but might just get back that 50fps.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v703/fredj338/45-215gr.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/fredj338/media/45-215gr.jpg.html)

[OS OK]

I tried Unique and it was just as miserable at not making the velocity with this 155 grain boolit...I have some H110 and 2400...perhaps I'll give those a try, they are slower than Unique. fredj338...thanks for posting pictures with with your comments!
TIm357...thanks for your input also although I suspect that heavier in the .38 cal. is 170-200 grain casts...I'll try it anyway, heck...all I can do is gain more knowledge!

[buckshotshoey]

The only problem with using ballistic gel is that it takes about $350.00 to set up with enough for two 16" blocks and one mold.
My test method is using a 10' long X 4" PVC pipe filled with water on about a 30* angle leaned on a couple of firewood rounds. I put denium on the front and shoot through two layers so far but on these I used two layers of heavy towels.
The other matter is buying several HP molds, they ain't cheap either so for now I'm stuck with my SWC-HP's for the .38/.357 and the .45 . If I had my ruthers I'd like to have a RNFP type HP with big cavity.
The only yardstick I can muster at the moment is that of making them work by adjusting BHN and powder charge and using the particular workup in only one length barrel in the revolvers.

This is what I got out of the .45 ACP...before trying the .38 Special...these are 9.4 BHN at 863 FPS. These work every time...

179159179160179161

OMG... I had no idea the ballistic gel cost that much. Never really looked it up. I too think I would go with heavier bullet and a slightly slower powder.

[OS OK]

Yes, I too was amazed, but...a good friend of mine did some videos on the gel...elvis ammo (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCqq2Xh4H4VnMjZemwjTLW0w)...a very cool fella and he's up on PC and the whole 9 yards...check him out.

[Tim357]

I tried Unique and it was just as miserable at not making the velocity with this 155 grain boolit...I have some H110 and 2400...perhaps I'll give those a try, they are slower than Unique. fredj338...thanks for posting pictures with with your comments!
TIm357...thanks for your input also although I suspect that heavier in the .38 cal. is 170-200 grain casts...I'll try it anyway, heck...all I can do is gain more knowledge!
Perhaps I should have mentioned the weight of the bullets I referred. Bob Hagel did a test with 110,125,140, and160 gr bullets.

[beagle]

I had my backyard machinist make a special top punch for me several years ago. It had six sharp teeth where the TP impacted the nose of the bullet. I drilled and tapped the center for a 10-32 screw which I worked down to fit the hollow point cavity. Upon sizing, two favorable things were accomplished. First, the portion extending below the teeth entered the HP cavity and centered the bullet when sizing. The six teeth serrated the walls of the HP cavity and enhanced segmented expansion. Finally, the pin in the cavity prevented the HP cavity from collapsing when the serrations were formed. One size TP does all. The 10-32 center hole can have various diameter centering pins made to fit your HP cavities. I've done bullets from .310 through .458 in mine and it works and definitely gives enhanced expansion of HPs at lower velocities./beagle

[runfiverun]

I do some jacketed bullets like Beagle does.
I cut the jacket and core open then form everything back together in the point form die.
you really can't see the cuts in the lead but the petals just about open if you drop them on the floor.

in your slower rounds try a little hot glue in the nose sometimes an initiator tip is all you need and it keeps the hollow from filling with material guaranteeing they won't open.

[bigolsmokebomb]

have you tried titegroup? i dont know if it burns any faster than bullseye but its worth a try at 24ish bucks a lb. ive used it for years in 9mm and havent had any issues in any of my guns with barrels from 3.5-5.25 and i developed my load for a 5.25in barrel. havent actually crono'd them out of the 3.5in barrel so i couldnt tell you how much of a difference there is but the load i have is a powderpuff for competition so it running a factory 3.5in semi is a good indicator

[buckshotshoey]

I had my backyard machinist make a special top punch for me several years ago. It had six sharp teeth where the TP impacted the nose of the bullet. I drilled and tapped the center for a 10-32 screw which I worked down to fit the hollow point cavity. Upon sizing, two favorable things were accomplished. First, the portion extending below the teeth entered the HP cavity and centered the bullet when sizing. The six teeth serrated the walls of the HP cavity and enhanced segmented expansion. Finally, the pin in the cavity prevented the HP cavity from collapsing when the serrations were formed. One size TP does all. The 10-32 center hole can have various diameter centering pins made to fit your HP cavities. I've done bullets from .310 through .458 in mine and it works and definitely gives enhanced expansion of HPs at lower velocities./beagle

Thats interesting. Kind of like a Speer Gold Dot?

[Spector]

I cast some 97%-3% boolits with my Accurate Mold 45-230Z, sized, installed aluminum PB gas checks as I resized and then clear powder coated. I chucked them lightly in my drill press chuck and ran them down onto a drill bit to create HP's. Then re-sized to .452'' in my Noe sizer. HPed Boolits ran right at 200 grains. I filled 7 with hot glue and 7 with booger glue I save from mailings I receive where dabs of that glue are used.

So far I have only fired one of each into new phone books because that material causes most HP's I've tried in the past to pucker shut and fail. It's caused every Black Talon I've ever fired into them to fail and about 50% of my Hydra-Shoks.

I chronographed one of my cast boolits at 823 fps. Both boolits expanded to over an inch in diameter with the one filled with booger glue fragmenting into 3 major pieces. Both stayed in the first yellow pages phone book, but the hot glue filled boolit busted pages into the 2nd phone book. These relatively soft glues do seem to aid in bullet expansion.

Try a little of both in some of your HP's and even at 700+fps I think you are going to see expansion with the booger glue. In water I do not believe glue will aid in expansion, but in tough targets they will. Should keep drywall and other such materials from causing HP's to turn into solids. I'd definitely try the booger glue in your snub-nosed revolver.

My boolits were drilled using a straight bit. A HP cast on a tapered pin should do better I would expect.

Mike

[45workhorse]

If this round is just for inside the house. How about a hollow based wad cutter put in upside down. At the speeds you are getting it ought to expand, maybe to much....
Just something to think about.

[PositiveCaster]

I tried Unique and it was just as miserable at not making the velocity with this 155 grain boolit...I have some H110 and 2400...perhaps I'll give those a try, they are slower than Unique...
Hodgdon data for a 158-grain LSWC shows the highest velocities with HS-6 and CFE, quite a bit higher than slow powders like H4227, higher than other mid-range powders like Universal (an imitation of Unique), and higher than fast powders like W-231. Heck, even TrailBoss gives higher velocities than the quickest powders. Powders which need high pressures to work correctly like H-110 should not be used in .38 Special loads appropriate for a snubby.

In some cases the difference is small, in others it approaches 100 fps. The data was developed in a 7.7" barrel, but extensive testing by many shooters in the 1980s proved that the powder which gave the highest velocities in long barrels almost always gave the highest in short tubes. Muzzle blast was an entirely different subject.

But most data was related to silhouette shooters, with little data taken with barrels as short as 2".


.

[OS OK]

I started out thinking that the faster powders would make pressure closer to the breech end of the barrel than a slower magnum powder that (I assumed) needed a little more barrel length and a little more weight to push also.
With all these varied and conflicting comments about slower powders and even lighter casts...I'm not sure which way to turn as nobody is quoting or posting the articles that they say supports their data.
Until we can sort this out I think I'll experiment with the same Bullseye but apply a little more crimp and see if that doesn't help to build the start pressure some. I'm very close and only need less than 75 FPM or so to get them all to open up consistently.
Once I can get this worked out I'll experiment with different materials to fill the HP and shoot through different materials ahead of the water pipe.
The trouble in evaluating the load books regarding the max. velocities is that they are all done in longer test barrels.

[Tim357]

The article I quoted is from HANDLOADER, Number 92, July-August 1981, titled " Powders for Short Barrel Handguns", commencing on page 26. I don't have permission to copy and post the article, so you're gonna need to locate a copy. Best I can do for you at this point.

I went back and reread the article. Bullseye was actually the slowest velocity powder with every bullet tested in every barrel length. Keep in mind, Bob Hagel was using jacked bullets in a .357, but the chrono, she don't lie.

Based on my own testing for my buddies, I would recommend Alliant Power Pistol, if you can find it.

[Blackwater]

OS OK, I feel your pain in trying to get expansion from a .38 Snubby. FWIW, I once carried a M-60 S&W on my ankle as a second gun on occasion, and I had some old bullets I'd picked up cheap. They were made or marketed by Taurus, according to the label on the box, and were dead soft, 158 gr. HP's with a VERY deep HP cavity. I loaded them ahead of 7.6 gr. of Blue Dot and crimped into the soft sides of the bullet with about 1/10" of the shank sticking out. They had no crimp groove, but the soft lead let them be held solidly, and I never had one even attempt to move forward from recoil.

This is a +P or +P+ load, and I don't see that load recommended any more, but it was very nicely powerful in the little M-60 with its small and pretty thin grips. That load expanded well in wet newsprint, which is probably the best affordable media for testing. I tighten down on a bunch of papers, get them as dense as I can with nylon string, usually, then place them in a garbage bag to hold the water in and wet them thoroughly, and leave them sit in the water until the next day. If I want to better simulate muscle, I'll add in a front panel of glossy magazines about 2-3" thick.

And as to the powder selection, it's pretty well been proven repeatedly that even in a 2" barrel, the powders that give the highest velocity in longer barrels, also give the highest velocity in the short ones. The muzzle blast and flash is greater, of course, and the velocity does indeed fall off from that of the long barrels, but it's still the highest attainable velocity in the snubbies.

I've pursued this before, but before I had a chrono. I tried all sorts of stuff, and went with that Blue Dot load above even though I knew it was probably right on the ragged edge of what the gun would take for very long. Probably only shot 150 or so of them through that old M-60, total, and used WC's or my cast SWC's for practice. Those loads were ONLY for "special occasions" when I thought the most power reasonably available might count for more than the longevity of the gun. I don't recommend it, and just relate what I did.

Nowadays, I'm kind'a leaning to a full WC cast hard so that full dia. cutting shoulder will cut as many blood vessels and leak as much blood as quickly as possible in a bad situation. And it'll also give decent penetration. We forget sometimes, in our search for expansion, that expansion is nice, but penetration can be critical.

At 2" .38 velocities, I want to be SURE that I get sufficient penetration, even on some 350 lb. drugged up gorilla with mayhem on his mind. When I practice on the std. K-5 silhouette target, I always try for the head at distances of 7 yds. or less. Even, if not especially with self defense, it's really more about where you hit them than what you hit them with.

Knowing penetration can be at a premium when velocity is down around or below 800 fps., I've simply elected to just make the hole as deep as I can rather than going for expansion. To get really good penetration and/or expansion, velocity is simply required. In the absence of attainable velocity, I think I'm gonna' go with the hard, flat pointed bullet. And just look for the best loads I can find and try them on some wet newsprint and the chrono.

But penetration will be my first thought in any snubby load. That's just how I do it, anyway. My old Colt DS won't even take +P, and it's a real jewel of a gun, and I love it. So I'm even more stuck than you are with the velocity thing, so I'm going to go with a hard cast bullet so it'll penetrate as deeply as possible. Just hope I never have to put it to the test, but .... you can never really know these days.

[ironhead7544]

I would try Power Pistol. A softer bullet might help. I would go as soft as possible. It might lead the barrel but you only need a few rounds generally for self defense.

Rim Rock Bullets sells a 5 Bhn 38 158 gr SWCHPGC. Might be worthwhile buying some of these for your special ammo.

[fredj338]

Hodgdon data for a 158-grain LSWC shows the highest velocities with HS-6 and CFE, quite a bit higher than slow powders like H4227, higher than other mid-range powders like Universal (an imitation of Unique), and higher than fast powders like W-231. Heck, even TrailBoss gives higher velocities than the quickest powders. Powders which need high pressures to work correctly like H-110 should not be used in .38 Special loads appropriate for a snubby.

In some cases the difference is small, in others it approaches 100 fps. The data was developed in a 7.7" barrel, but extensive testing by many shooters in the 1980s proved that the powder which gave the highest velocities in long barrels almost always gave the highest in short tubes. Muzzle blast was an entirely different subject.

But most data was related to silhouette shooters, with little data taken with barrels as short as 2".


.
Of course the selection of powder is limited by volume & pressure achieved. You can't get enough 2400 into a 9mm case to get effective vel. You can pack 2400 into a 38sp case & beat any faster powder in vel, but not by much. That is how the 357mag started, over loading the 38sp case with slower powders.

[PositiveCaster]

Even though this site is about cast bullets, if this is a last ditch protection pistol, the OP needs to not limit himself. Even purist boolet casters realize the importance of maximum bullet performance in a self-defense pistol. Speer for example makes bullets specifically designed for short barreled .38s - a 110 and a 135-grain hollow point. Trying 1960s technology like inverted HBWCs is foolish when we have modern options which are proven to work.

But it's the OP's life and family, he can make his own choice.



.

[45-70 Chevroner]

Rather than a hollow point I personally use a 148 gr dead soft hollow base wadcutter, hollow base loaded backwords. At the distance inside a house it will be bad news for the reciever. Load over 3.3 grains Bullseye. By the way technology from the past still works. Test it yourself then you decide.

[Oyeboten]

I would just use 158 Grain 'Pure Lead' DEWCs and have them going 800 or FPS, and I'd feel satisfied.

Hollow Nose is going to be problematic out of a less than two inch Snubby, and, the Hollow Nose at the Velocities the Revolver can deliver, will not do anything as well as a DEWC would, anyway, so...I'd just go with the flat face flat base Wadcutters...who are already most of the way home to where a Hollow nose would be, if it could be, at these velocities.

[OS OK]

Thanks for all the data and suggestions fellas...I'm bound to change powders, an old timer friend up country has them all so I can get some testers right away, thanks for the list to try.
The other problem is that I'm as hard headed as concrete...I've got this 75 year old mold from Ideal and I'm bound and determined to make a go of it...actually, I'm kinda enjoying the challenge.
Today I smelted up a big batch of lead flashing, can still smell the stink of it...gotta love this stuff to keep at it like this. That flashing is the softest lead I had collected around here...hopefully it'll be about 6 BHN when I test it in a week.
Remember that post someone made about their lead pot blowing up? Well today it had me spooked thinking of that post...shoulda seen me, I looked like an overhead welder all dolled up in leathers and such..well at least I didn't have any surprises and now have a fresh batch of soft Pb without any pewter or tin mixed into it, next week I'll have more results and with different powders too.
Cross your fingers for 800-830 FPS!
Remember, I want these for the wife's .38 snubby 'in house' gun...really don't want them too snappy.

[Spector]

If she fires it in the house then there will be much pre-blast and post-blast adrenaline to the point that snappy will not be a consideration. Only an AD lacks pre-blast adrenaline, but is guaranteed to provide much post-blast adrenaline.It rteminds me of my former female boss thelling me she did not want a firearm that was going to leave blood all over her floor. Just wanted something to punch small hole in a home invader.


Mike

[yondering]

but I did find it interesting how a cast HP is almost enough in one barrel and too dang much in another.



Not just any cast hollow point. As I've said in one of your other threads on this subject, the design matters a lot. Performance like this is what you get with a narrow hollow point cavity and lots of lead around it; you get a very small velocity window where it works correctly, a little too slow and it doesn't expand, a little too fast and it blows up.

As I've suggested before, you need a more progressive hollow point design to do what you're wanting; either try various top punches to alter the hollow point cavity, or have your mold modified to take a larger pin.

[Silverboolit]

How about trying a slug made of zinc instead of lead? the zinc is lighter and penetration may be limited as far as walls, etc. Has anyone tried this? You are talking about short distances in the home.

[W.R.Buchanan]

OS OK: There was an article in Handloader mag in the recent issue about using "Manstopper Boolits" in .38's and .45's

These boolits were essentially Hollow Based Wadcutters loaded backwards. And they would expand totally at 600 fps.

Since they are HB boolits the hole in the base is enormous . Just a thought.

Or another way would be to drill your existing HP's out with a bigger tapered hole which would accomplish the same thing.

Randy

[yondering]

How about trying a slug made of zinc instead of lead? the zinc is lighter and penetration may be limited as far as walls, etc. Has anyone tried this? You are talking about short distances in the home.

I have cast solid zinc bullets, but no hollow points. Zinc is lighter than lead, but much harder and stronger. In theory that would require a larger hollow point cavity and higher velocity to get expansion. Any bullet capable of penetrating a bad guy will also penetrate multiple home interior walls though; there's no getting around that.

[dubber123]

http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/hh83/dubber123/IMG_3149.jpg (http://s254.photobucket.com/user/dubber123/media/IMG_3149.jpg.html)

Your exact boolit, even harder alloy, (9Bhn), Bullseye powder, 1-7/8" snubbie.... Pre plug your HP!

Power Pistol will beat Bullseye handily in a snub if you don't want to up your Bullseye load.

[dverna]

Excellent thread gentlemen!!!

Thanks for the information.

Don Verna

[OS OK]

I'll do exactly that dub...

[fecmech]

I've followed this thread for a while and I have to ask, why does anyone want a bullet for this application any harder than pure lead? I have a box of the so-called FBI load by Winchester and the bullet is so soft I can peel the lead off it with my fingernail. They have a proven track record, even in snubby's for expansion if that's what one wants. At only 800 fps, pure lead is more than adequate and if you should get a bit of leading, so what? If expansion is the goal and velocity is limited to approx 800 fps (realistic snub nose velocity) then to my mind you use the softest most ductile material you can, pure lead.

[dubber123]

I've followed this thread for a while and I have to ask, why does anyone want a bullet for this application any harder than pure lead? I have a box of the so-called FBI load by Winchester and the bullet is so soft I can peel the lead off it with my fingernail. They have a proven track record, even in snubby's for expansion if that's what one wants. At only 800 fps, pure lead is more than adequate and if you should get a bit of leading, so what? If expansion is the goal and velocity is limited to approx 800 fps (realistic snub nose velocity) then to my mind you use the softest most ductile material you can, pure lead.

I went with 50/50 as it shot better with much less leading than a softer alloy, yet worked correctly 100% of the time in my tests. If for some reason a persons HP's were unreliable, I can see trying pure lead to see if the reliability increased.

[beagle]

Works kinda like that with soft lead./beagle


Thats interesting. Kind of like a Speer Gold Dot?

[beagle]

A friend of mine went to the FBIs bomb school once and somebody gave him some armor piercing bullets that looked like they were coated with solidified green Teflon. He also gave me three of their hydraulic filled bullets made to use inside houses. The bullet end was light and supposedly they completely opened on impact and dissipated all energy versus going through three rooms worth of dry wall. Always wanted to try them but I think my son beat me to them. The FBI's got some neat stuff among their equipment corrupt leaders not counting./beagle


I've followed this thread for a while and I have to ask, why does anyone want a bullet for this application any harder than pure lead? I have a box of the so-called FBI load by Winchester and the bullet is so soft I can peel the lead off it with my fingernail. They have a proven track record, even in snubby's for expansion if that's what one wants. At only 800 fps, pure lead is more than adequate and if you should get a bit of leading, so what? If expansion is the goal and velocity is limited to approx 800 fps (realistic snub nose velocity) then to my mind you use the softest most ductile material you can, pure lead.

[Forrest r]

Your problem is 2 fold.

Bullseye powder
Too small a diameter of hp (.125")

Powders that give the slowest velocities in long bbl's 38spl's (4"/6"/8") will also give the slowest velocities in short bbl'd revolvers.

A hp design/shape, diameter and depth all play a part in how it performs. Some different hp's for the 38spl/357's.
http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t242/forrestr-photo/af7bb604-c362-4b49-80b7-cc4676d519ad_zps6wxqrard.jpg (http://s162.photobucket.com/user/forrestr-photo/media/af7bb604-c362-4b49-80b7-cc4676d519ad_zps6wxqrard.jpg.html)

When you take a 1 size fits all or in this case 1 hp hole fits all it tends to be harder to make the extremes work. Extremes ='s too low or too high of a velocity. You happen to be in the "too low" area. If you look at the pictures of the different hp's pictured above most of them have the standard 1/8" hp hole. The bottom center is a hp bullet specifically designed for the 357 (smaller .100" diameter) while the 640 hp's top row/2nd from left have larger hp holes (around .195"/5mm). Add to that a penta point version, they both do extremely well with lower velocities.

A couple of weeks ago I wanted to test some different powders in a snubnosed 38spl. Nothing fancy, a 2" bbl'd ca undercover that has a pretty good cylinder gap (.007") and a oversized bbl (.3585). Not the best combo but but it gets the job done. I used 10 different bullets in the test. I only shot 10-shot strings with each bullet. I tested 5 different powders and used the same powder charge for all 10 bullets. After firing the 10 10-shot strings for a powder I added them all together and ended up with a 100 shot string. Doing this gave me an idea of what to expect from a given powder in that snubnosed revolver. Yes there would absolutely be a +/- depending on the bullet but at the end of the day all 5 powders had the same 10-shot groups with the same 10 bullets.

The powders/charge weights used:
Bullseye 4.4gr
Unique 5.5gr
Be-86 5.7gr
Power pistol 6.2gr
2400 11.0gr

The bullets tested:
h&g #51 146gr swchp, cramer #25 158gr rnhp, cramer #25 (same as the lyman 358477) 150gr swchp), 358439 156gr swchp, 358156 148gr gc swchp, mihec 640 158gr rnfphp, mihec 148gr hbwc, jacketed 150gr xtp style hp, 358431 145gr hb swchp, raphine 145gr hb rnfphp.
The 358431 & the raphine hb bullet had a cupped hp put in them with a forster hp tool. The jacketed bullet used is a home swaged bullet made from 380acp cases. The 148gr cast hbwc was turned around to make a huge hp and was seated out in the top lube groove. The 358156 were used without a gas check installed.

4.4gr of bullseye 10-shot 10 bullet (100-shot string) AVG. 801fps
h&g #51 807fps
cramer #25 800fps
cramer #26 797fps
358439 792fps
358156 822fps
mihec 640 802fps
mihec hbwc 796fps
jacketed bullet 817fps
358431 770fps
raphine 803fps

5.5gr of Unique 10-shot 10 bullet (100-shot string) AVG. 833fps
h&g #51 828fps
cramer #25 830fps
cramer #26 846fps
358439 818fps
358156 847fps
mihec 640 838fps
mihec hbwc 845fps
jacketed bullet 835fps
358431 814fps
raphine 827fps

5.7gr of be-86 10-shot 10 bullet (100-shot string) AVG. 845fps
h&g #51 848fps
cramer #25 836fps
cramer #26 863fps
358439 852fps
358156 848fps
mihec 640 844fps
mihec hbwc 846fps
jacketed bullet 846fps
358431 827fps
raphine 841fps

11.0gr of 2400 10-shot 10 bullet (100-shot string) AVG. 882fps
h&g #51 867fps
cramer #25 879fps
cramer #26 868fps
358439 879fps
358156 888fps
mihec 640 891fps
mihec hbwc 8850fps
jacketed bullet 916fps
358431 882fps
raphine 902fps

6.2gr of power pistol 10-shot 10 bullet (100-shot string) AVG. 887fps
h&g #51 878fps
cramer #25 895fps
cramer #26 905fps
358439 873fps
358156 900fps
mihec 640 889fps
mihec hbwc 884fps
jacketed bullet 910fps
358431 859fps
raphine 880fps

The 358431 hb bullet did not do so well but I already new that the round hb design isn't the greatest. I have the same mold in 44cal and I made a conical hb pin and the velocities increased 40fps/50fps for the same bullet. I need to do the same thing and make a conical hb pin for the 358431 mold. The raphine mold already has a conical hb pin.

Anyway use that same 358439 swchp bullet/alloy and step up to 11.0gr of 2400. Your 800fps 4.4gr bullseye load is just that , too slow and your hp's are showing it. Go from a 800fps load to a 900fps load and your hp issues will be a thing of the past.

On a side note:
Power pistol out performed the other powders tested and that 6.2gr powder charge was on the light/safe side. I do load my snubnosed 38spl p+ loads hotter.
The be-86 did extremely well considering there isn't much data out there for that powder right now. Used the rather anemic alliant data. I'm looking forward to more testing as better data comes out.

[OS OK]

Forrest r...EMPIRICAL DATA...
Thank you! Your post is exactly what I had in mind when I thought about starting this on HP's...I knew that someone out there had put an ernest effort into figuring out the physics of these little buggers.
If I had the money to invest into molds...well, you know the story. But, at least I have these two old buggers and am bound and determined to understand them. Regarding the physics of these two small hole molds it's just a little harder to get the results consistently but do that I will.

One thing about the lead and the low velocity...it's got to be soft. Several times now I've gone back and retested the BHN of the several batches used and discovered that in each case with lead that is more than a week old out of the mold...well, it's about 2 BHN harder than as planned.
Instead of worrying about the mix being perfectly mixed with a tiny bit of tin or pewter, I'm doing the next test with dead soft 5 BHN lead. At least that was the measurement on the day I melted down all my flashing stock a couple days back. Someone suggested some store bought HP's and I checked the website and they advertise 5 BHN lead in their casts...maybe they know something too.

Another thing I'm throwing in is tapering that front hole some and making a bit of a scoop there, I've used a couple of wood bits for insetting wood screws flush and the smaller of the three does a good even job, then I'll add some soft silicone type plugs on their ends too.
I have some 2400 to try out so that'll be in the mix too.

Forrest believe me when I say I appreciate your sharing these data with me and us all...I do understand how much time you put into obtaining and recording it...I don't take that lightly in passing..."thank you very much!"

Another note 'I think I've noticed?', is that with the thicker sidewalls of the HP the mushroom tends to stay together and resist fragmenting.

[runfiverun]

you won't have the shearing or blow-off with the thicker supported lead.

another thing you don't want to do is have both tin and antimony in your alloy.
one or the other is fine.
a mix of 30 or 40-1 lead/tin
oooor 2% antimony is fine.

both will help hold the nose together, the tin will provide more support and the antimony will allow more slump under duress on the nose.
BHN doesn't tell the whole tale.
look at how soft Hornady's wad cutters are,,,,, they are swaged and contain 5% antimony.
lead behaves differently with different things in it especially when it's swaged versus cast.

now you might be casting them to get the initial boolit shape but you are most definitely swaging them in the throat and barrel and in the test media.
most people don't understand the swaging relationship of the boolit in the firing sequence or in terminal performance.
but it is a very important part of the loads performance in both places.

[OS OK]

I'm with you here r5r...that's why I chose to start with a modified Stick-On WW batch with minimum amt. of pewter to hit about 1.5% Sn...well, for some reason that batch hardened further by 2 BHN though I used the X-Cell worksheet Pb calculator and carefully weighed the components. I'm afraid that the Pb in the COWW's may not be exactly as advertised. Without the x-ray analysis done all I can do is assume and we know about assuming!

[45workhorse]

Even though this site is about cast bullets, if this is a last ditch protection pistol, the OP needs to not limit himself. Even purist boolet casters realize the importance of maximum bullet performance in a self-defense pistol. Speer for example makes bullets specifically designed for short barreled .38s - a 110 and a 135-grain hollow point. Trying 1960s technology like inverted HBWCs is foolish when we have modern options which are proven to work.

But it's the OP's life and family, he can make his own choice.



.
Elmer Keith, Bill Jordan.
Old tech seemed to work for them.

[OS OK]

Elmer Keith, Bill Jordan.
Old tech seemed to work for them.

I think he chimed in without reading my objectives...Also this mold is Ideals copy of Keith's SWC-HP, 1930-something vintage. "Old School...Oh Yeah!"

[OS OK]

The test today was exclusively the HP-38, quite a bit slower than the Bullseye...but, not quite slow enough evidently...The bottom row is .1'th off the max. +P load, something I keep noticing with this dang .38...it sure is a wimpy load!
No chrono work today and these casts are lead @ 5 BHN about 50 hours after smelting, no increase there yet....it was flashing material, no Sn added. Easy casting, out of 80 casts I had 2 rejects for incomplete bases, that was my fault.
The second pic. is the little bit I used to chamfer the HP's noses...it removes 1 1/2 grains of Pb.


179383179384

[runfiverun]

so some worked and some didn't?

I'm waiting for the initiator tip results, I think you'll find a little something there.
you might could use a punch to add an initiator bulge to the nose.
and you could always do the split nose with some paper in the first 1/4" too.
I got lot's of ideas :lol:

[OS OK]

From...(Casting with the Lyman 358-439 HP and LOW Velocity (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?317956-Casting-with-the-Lyman-358-439-HP-and-LOW-Velocity)) this picture of (Best results thus far...)results with the Bullseye @ 4.0 grains of a 4.2 max. load (prior to +P rated loads that extend to 4.5 grains) but I don't want +P ammo.
179772...the odd thing here is this load is with lead that cast at 7.4 BHN on cast day and rose to 8.2 in 48 hours.



A Reloaders Guide (free handout), from 2004 Alliant Powders claims that I can use up to 4.5 grains of Herco behind a 158 grain SWC lead cast and get 930 FPS at 15.8 KPSI...well, heres 4.3 grains behind these 155 grain SWC-HP's...

179771...5 BHN lead here also.

One of the worst results yet...I wish I knew more about why people claim slower powders work better in short barrels....frankly, I can't see the proof.

***Thus far...the best results have been the fastest powder and that was Bullseye, 4.0 grains, harder lead but shallow HP pin....can't argue with the results huh?

I'm going back to the Bullseye and going next with the chamfered ends like these and the 'initiator tips' as R5R calls them.

Stay tuned....

[OS OK]

179786

Ok...starting over again but using the initiator tips as R5R labeled them. No taper or chamfer on the front hole...I'll let these sit until tomorrow and run them down the pipe through a couple thick layers of old beach towel...
I filled the hole to the bottom with a toothpick. This stuff is rubbery and will firm up but it stretches so it ought be adequate, we'll see?

[dubber123]

179786

Ok...starting over again but using the initiator tips as R5R labeled them. No taper or chamfer on the front hole...I'll let these sit until tomorrow and run them down the pipe through a couple thick layers of old beach towel...
I filled the hole to the bottom with a toothpick. This stuff is rubbery and will firm up but it stretches so it ought be adequate, we'll see?

If your velocity is around 850 fps., they should look exactly like the ones I posted. See you tomorrow :)

[runfiverun]

glad you posted, I was wondering how things were going.
now I gotta wait too :[
I love following these little 'projects' as you guy's post them, it's just like the stuff I like to work on here and we all learn something from them.

[yondering]

One of the worst results yet...I wish I knew more about why people claim slower powders work better in short barrels....frankly, I can't see the proof.


You missed why people were advising you to use slower powder. It had nothing to do with being better in a shorter barrel; someone even pointed out (correctly) that you don't need to use different powders for different barrel lengths. The advice to use slower powder (this means slower burn rate, not slower velocity) was so that you can achieve higher velocity without exceeding pressure limits. That is true regardless whether you're using short or long barrels.

[CPL Lou]

You missed why people were advising you to use slower powder. It had nothing to do with being better in a shorter barrel; someone even pointed out (correctly) that you don't need to use different powders for different barrel lengths. The advice to use slower powder (this means slower burn rate, not slower velocity) was so that you can achieve higher velocity without exceeding pressure limits. That is true regardless whether you're using short or long barrels.
^^^ What he said.
I use Unique in my snub 38 Special and have no problem getting 863fps from my 1-7/8" barrel, using standard small pistol primers.
I like the idea of the caulk in the noses, I'll have to try that one.

CPL Lou

[Lloyd Smale]

correct answer. Full with those fast powders and your going to hit high pressures before you get top velocitys.
"I'm not satisfied with the snubby, will have to find some quicker powder I suppose,"
Try a slower powder. Generally the loads that get the most velocity in a longer barrel will get the most velocity with a short barrel length. There was a piece in Handloader magazine about 30 years ago that chrono'd different loads in various barrel lengths in a Dan Wesson .357. Eye opening, to say the least. Unique torched Bullseye, heck even H110, Blue Dot and 2400 beat the snot out of Bullseye with the heavier bullets in the short barrels.

[Lloyd Smale]

hs6 and a mag primer will get you there. Going to be a bit of muzzle flash though. Some others to try are power pistol and universal clays.

[OS OK]

You missed why people were advising you to use slower powder. It had nothing to do with being better in a shorter barrel; someone even pointed out (correctly) that you don't need to use different powders for different barrel lengths. The advice to use slower powder (this means slower burn rate, not slower velocity) was so that you can achieve higher velocity without exceeding pressure limits. That is true regardless whether you're using short or long barrels.

I've had that concept for several decades now, I get that part.

I believe that fast pistol powders need at least two inches of barrel to make full pressure.
I believe that slow pistol powders need around six inches of barrel to make full pressure.

Rifle powders need +/- nine inches of barrel to make full pressure.

'The Wizardry of Propulsion' (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?297867-The-Wizardry-of-Propulsion)

All of the above, I believe is...give or take a fraction of an inch. I have the technical write up on rifle powder and pressure/temp./speed/% of powder used at a given length down barrel...I've just never found a comparable write up (white paper) done on specifically pistol powders.

I believe that a snubby is marginal at best for working up pressure/speed...these faster loads you fellas have prolly put a flame out the front end and some large percentage of powder is consumed out there in front of the muzzle. That means that you had a faster, higher pressure load than you actually clocked in the snubby and if it wasn't worked up in a six inch or better barrel, it possibly could be over the top if you go by speed alone and don't limit yourselves to book values regarding maximum pressure.

All the above and the barrel and cylinder gap, fitment of cast, ignition and how you hold your mouth at any given time...all have determination in this mix...it ain't as simple as the dang speed of the powder.

charlie

[popper]

I don't do HPs. That said, your 'initiator' should help. Probably better with a deeper HP. Purpose is to prevent inward expansion. If flexible, it can aid by providing outward pressure on the Pb 'tube'. Drywall will fill the cavity and NOT be an 'initiator' as the drywall flexes when hit and you end up with a loose powder in the cavity. I presume you want expansion to dump energy in the target to limit over penetration so you don't really care if the petals break off, the base will still allow decent penetration. Try some nose down smash tests with a heavy hammer. Won't be the impact you think you should get but realistically close. You might try some Cu in the pure if you don't want the petals to break off.

[OS OK]

179840

Dang near there! You notice the one on the left still has some filler in the nose...why didn't it open, I dunnoh?
I think I'm right at the critical point where they will work at 5 BHN and 4.0 grains of a 4.2 Max. grains of Bullseye...but...I have to admit that the 'initiator tip' has to be the 'big game changer' today. I think from now on the 'IT' will be standard fare though.

Next...perhaps the 4.2 grains of Bullseye...or maybe try using small magnum primers for a hotter ignition?
These were the shallow pin version for the .38 Special...I wonder if they will open up the deep pin version for the .357 Mag?

Two of these lost weight, one lost .1'th and .3'ths ...not much at all I think.

One new fact...the cylinder gap to barrel is .006"...not too bad I suppose.

Okay...I'm open for comments/suggestions...whatcha got?

PS...I'm not going to worry about speed until I can get 100% cooperation...then I'll load that particular recipe and run it across the chrony and another batch for a 30' target group test.

[dubber123]

Post #31 regarding cavity filler... Also your velocity is a bit too low. Either stand on the Bullseye a bit, which you are low on in charge weight currently, or go to Power Pistol in an appropriate charge is my suggestion. If you don't want to go +P that's fine, but less than full standard loadings when looking for expansion don't make sense to me either. I used LBT Blue soft boolit lube to plug mine, it might matter to have a softer filler, I don't know. My snub loads break 850 fps. and I am guessing yours are a good 80 fps. slower, and that matters. I am glad you are on the right track, keep at it.

[NavyVet1959]

Have you considered loading each round with 2 lighter wadcutter bullets stacked on top of each other? You might not get a lot of expansion, but unless they enter exactly the same place, you'll get twice the damage of a single bullet. :)

Personally, I don't have a problem with overpenetration, so I usually have a 10mm with 216gr WFN loads.

http://images.spambob.net/navy-vet-1959/lee-tl410-210-swc-resized-10mm-loaded-320w.jpg

According to Underwood, their testing gave over 50" of penetration in ballistic gel with this loading. Not sure how much *over* since he has yet to set enough gel on a table to be able to catch one.

[OS OK]

Never tried that before...I'm having too much fun and learning sooo much just playing around with all the variables in these old school Keith designs.

[NavyVet1959]

Never tried that before...I'm having too much fun and learning sooo much just playing around with all the variables in these old school Keith designs.

Depends upon what you are trying to achieve -- it might work for your needs.

Another option might be to set yourself up an alarm that you can activate from anywhere in the house and tell everyone else that if they hear that alarm, hit the floor because bullets might be flying at around center-of-mass level.

[35remington]

Virtually all the powders you list peak and fall off in pressure before the bullet base clears the cylinder. Most of the Alliant powders are similar in base formulation.

The limitation therefore is mostly due to pressure.

When you draw that snubby from concealment, the powder will be crowded up near the bullet. And then the velocity you thought you were getting will be in actuality around 100 fps slower.

With standard pressure loads Unique will top out at about 800-810 fps with a 158 in a snubby. Permissible loads of power pistol will beat that by about 40 fps but that's most due to loading it closer to the top end of standard pressures rather than due to any burn rate differance. Both powders are noticeably position sensitive.

Test for velocity and expansion powder forward or you will be missing out on real life modeling.

[OS OK]

Virtually all the powders you list peak and fall off in pressure before the bullet base clears the cylinder. Most of the Alliant powders are similar in base formulation.

The limitation therefore is mostly due to pressure.

When you draw that snubby from concealment, the powder will be crowded up near the bullet. And then the velocity you thought you were getting will be in actuality around 100 fps slower.

With standard pressure loads Unique will top out at about 800-810 fps with a 158 in a snubby. Permissible loads of power pistol will beat that by about 40 fps but that's most due to loading it closer to the top end of standard pressures rather than due to any burn rate differance. Both powders are noticeably position sensitive.

Test for velocity and expansion powder forward or you will be missing out on real life modeling.

That's just the information I'd like to read...where did you get this?

charlie

[35remington]

Ballistic modeling programs and long held knowledge I guess. One of the most commonly held but mostly false beliefs is that "fast"powders and "medium" powders (e.g. Bullseye and Unique) have vastly different performance potential in short barrels.

In actual fact, if you're getting considerably more velocity with one than the other you're running at considerably higher pressure. The powder is almost fully consumed before the bullet gets near the snubby muzzle.....and pressure best consumes powder, not barrel length. A longer barrel just gives low pressure loads more area to deposit powder upon.

Very few appropriate 38 Special powders throw any appreciable quantity of unburnt powder out the muzzle. Powders appropriate for the 38 are all fast. Unique Herco and Power Pistol are of the same ilk, and really are not all that much slower than Bullseye.

[Rattlesnake Charlie]

You might want to consider a full wadcutter. Can't count on expansion at what a .38 snubbie does. Go with full bore diameter and some penetration. The .38 snubbie doesn't penetrate much.

[35remington]

Not with many expanding bullets is penetration much over the FBI.minimum. Full charge wadcutters go about 23-24 inches in gelatin, and the SWC's about close to fifty percent further than that.

12 inches is considered minimally acceptable and as long as they don't expand too much your loads will do that. The challenging part is expansion and velocity performance with the powder forward in the case. And you thought you were having a tough time already!

[OS OK]

Not with many expanding bullets is penetration much over the FBI.minimum. Full charge wadcutters go about 23-24 inches in gelatin, and the SWC's about close to fifty percent further than that.

12 inches is considered minimally acceptable and as long as they don't expand too much your loads will do that. The challenging part is expansion and velocity performance with the powder forward in the case. And you thought you were having a tough time already!

This last test went like this...(as all the others did also)
1'st shot...cocked pointing at the ground then raised chest high and pointed at the end of the pipe then fired...(powder should have been in the front of the case...right?)
#'s 2-3-4&5 were cocked at chest level while the snubbie was pointing at the target pipe...wouldn't you think these rounds had the small load of Bullseye scattered from one end of the case to the other after recoil of no. 1 shot?

In your explanation, how did this affect my test?

charlie

[35remington]

Test multiple rounds with powder definitively forward to get a good representative average.....then figure when the SHTF the lowest possible velocities will likely occur. The first shot has most of the money riding on it. If the bullets work at the lowest possible speeds you will encounter, you are unarguably golden if you somehow get lucky enough to have the powder to the rear for a change.

Powder can be anywhere after the shot. It is not inconceivable that shooting may position powder to the front as the gun recoils rearward while the powder may try to stay in place.....but it can bounce around, too. Positioning beforehand then comparing results to "raise and shoot repeatedly" will tell you where the powder is in the case.

Despite claims you may hear elsewhere, most powders are position sensitive in the 38. I repeatedly and extensively test for it. I hate guessing.

[Blackwater]

I think .35 gives you good advice, OS OK. .38 snubby loads are one of the most problematic in realoading, I think. It's been a long time now, but I once carried a M-60 S&W on my ankle when visiting some parolees that liked to keep volatile lackeys around rather than Dobermans, etc. I was fine with my .357 loads, but what to carry in the M-60? I tried WC's with full powder load for 158's, 158 SWC's and the 168 gr. Keith bullets. Wasn't satisfied with any, but tended to like the Keith bullet a little better than the others.

Then I read a load in one of the glossy mags about a snubby load that seemed kind'a hot, but I tried it. Can't remember who printed it, but still remember the load. It was 7.6 gr. Blue Dot with a 158 gr. SWC, and it was what the writer had chosen to carry in his snubby. I tried it, and it seemed definitely the most potent load I tried. I'm sure it's +P (article didn't mention pressure levels) and suspect it's +P+, but I never shot many, other than to verify POI. The bullets I used were some very soft 158 gr. Taurus SWCHPs, with the deepest HP I've ever seen. I think it went 2/3 the length of the bullet towards the base.

Judging by recoil, I wouldn't fire many of them and practiced with std. or some +P .38's. My gun never loosened up materially, but remember, I didn't shoot many of these at all other than for testing and establishing POI in the fixed sight M-60. I do NOT recommend this load, and can only relay my experience with it. It'd expand those soft SWCHP Taurus bullets to near quarter size at close range in wet newsprint, and that was definitely the best load I ever got with it.

To tell the truth, I never really saw any major advantage in any of the other loads, one over the other, and mainly preferred the Keith bullet, until I found that load with the Taurus bullets, because I figured it'd be most reliable in penetration. Also tried the Lee 150 SWCHP, which came out lubed and ready to load at 142 gr. Cast soft with some tin to help hold it together for better penetration, I got some expansion from it, but wasn't that confident it was enough to make much of a real difference, and mainly just relegated myself to having to place those anemic loads just right instead of trying to soup them up enough to get the kind of power I wanted.

Don't know if any of this helps, but I offer it FWIW, if anything. For my little DS, I plan on loading hard cast FWC's or the Keith bullets loaded to std. pressure, and just doing what I did before, and just planning on placing the bullets well. A well placed .22 beats a fringed .50 any day. Just my experience.

[fredj338]

I've had that concept for several decades now, I get that part.

I believe that fast pistol powders need at least two inches of barrel to make full pressure.
I believe that slow pistol powders need around six inches of barrel to make full pressure.

Rifle powders need +/- nine inches of barrel to make full pressure.

'The Wizardry of Propulsion' (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?297867-The-Wizardry-of-Propulsion)

All of the above, I believe is...give or take a fraction of an inch. I have the technical write up on rifle powder and pressure/temp./speed/% of powder used at a given length down barrel...I've just never found a comparable write up (white paper) done on specifically pistol powders.

I believe that a snubby is marginal at best for working up pressure/speed...these faster loads you fellas have prolly put a flame out the front end and some large percentage of powder is consumed out there in front of the muzzle. That means that you had a faster, higher pressure load than you actually clocked in the snubby and if it wasn't worked up in a six inch or better barrel, it possibly could be over the top if you go by speed alone and don't limit yourselves to book values regarding maximum pressure.

All the above and the barrel and cylinder gap, fitment of cast, ignition and how you hold your mouth at any given time...all have determination in this mix...it ain't as simple as the dang speed of the powder.

charlie

I still don't think you are understanding the slow vs fast powder issue. A longer bbl will get better vel with slower powders because there is more time for the powder to burn completely. Peak pressure are achieved within the chamber, so a bbl being short or long has nothing to do with peak pressures.
Generally, you get highest vel with slower powders, just fact, regardless of bbl length. Without a chrono, you have no idea what vel you are getting. The fact the LHP expands with one powder & not the other is vel related, not burn rate related. You may just need more slower powder. If you are loading say 4gr of BE vs 4gr of W231, well yes, vel will be lower, but that is to be expected. Load 5gr of W231, you will get higher vel with sim pressures.

[fredj338]

Virtually all the powders you list peak and fall off in pressure before the bullet base clears the cylinder. Most of the Alliant powders are similar in base formulation.

The limitation therefore is mostly due to pressure.

When you draw that snubby from concealment, the powder will be crowded up near the bullet. And then the velocity you thought you were getting will be in actuality around 100 fps slower.

With standard pressure loads Unique will top out at about 800-810 fps with a 158 in a snubby. Permissible loads of power pistol will beat that by about 40 fps but that's most due to loading it closer to the top end of standard pressures rather than due to any burn rate differance. Both powders are noticeably position sensitive.

Test for velocity and expansion powder forward or you will be missing out on real life modeling.
In all my chrono testing with various calibers, NEVER seen a 100fps spread by tipping the bbl up, never.

[35remington]

BW's comments are pertinent.

Speaking for myself, and considering controllability and ballistic consistency along with lesser penetration and greater "per inch" energy transfer than SWC's, the ammo I carry in the gun is wadcutters if loaded to standard pressure. Reloads are more speedloader friendly bullets.

Frankly, from what I know and have tried, getting standard pressure SWCHP's to expand from a snubby is probably not gonna happen with most powder position forward orientation. The upper end of Plus P handloaded pressures are necessary before it reliably occurs with powder forward.

For illuminating results try factory Plus P SWCHP's powder forward to compare. The bullets are quite soft and possibly partly due to variable powder position issues these have a spotty record for "mushroom" expansion as well.

Do not get fixated on the classic mushroom shape. If it bumps up to a cylindrical shape it will go about 18-19 inches in gelatin and this is probably ideal from a snubby. This is pretty much what the FBI load does out of snubby barrels and it is highly thought of. If you accomplish the same you may be in a better position than you realize in terms of being well armed.

[35remington]

Fred, I have extensively documented tests here where I see that all the time. Be very happy to point you to it regarding the 38.

With rifles and loads like a partial case full of 4895, it may be 200 fps or more. Testing for it has nothing in common with unicorns.

[yondering]

I've had that concept for several decades now, I get that part.

I believe that fast pistol powders need at least two inches of barrel to make full pressure.
I believe that slow pistol powders need around six inches of barrel to make full pressure.

Rifle powders need +/- nine inches of barrel to make full pressure.


Respectfully, your beliefs are off by a long ways in this matter, and it's preventing you from fully understanding your load. Peak pressure in most handgun rounds is reached very quickly, with the bullets very close to the chamber. In rifle rounds peak pressure is generally achieved within the first few inches of barrel.

Ignoring velocity is a very "unique" approach to making hollow points work, since velocity is one of the primary factors in how well and if they work.

[OS OK]

You are absolutely right, I beg your pardon and everyone else's...peak pressure is at the 'about 1 inch' mark with rifles.

I had to go back and re-read an article..an article titled 'The Wizardry of Propulsion' published in "SPEER, Manual #7 for Reloading Ammunition", pub. 1966-7. author; DR. Edgar L. Eichhorn.

I had my facts 'bass ackward' and was wrong. Thank you for persisting and getting me to back up and re-group!

I had it in my mind that pressure was at max. at 9 inches when it is actually 100% of the powder is consumed by that point. It's not safe for me to assume that I remember something correctly anymore.

Now I can clear that garbage from what little grey matter I have left and re-think this post from the start.

charlie

[Blackwater]

Well, OS OK, that's a big boat yer travellin' in when it comes to th' memory thing. My forgetter is the only thing I've got that's gettin' stronger! :-?

[OS OK]

Thanks for the kind words Dennis...I hate eating 'crow...munch-munch'...somebody pass me a beer to wash it down!

[runfiverun]

think about it as time under peak pressure.
the other advantage to the slower powders is they fill the case.

[yondering]

I hate eating 'crow...munch-munch'...somebody pass me a beer to wash it down!

No worries man, we all get mixed up sometimes; good for you to realize it and move forward. I figure if we're all here to learn something (or re-learn it) and leave the egos at the door, we can get a lot farther than we would if we don't eat crow when it's appropriate.

[Forrest r]

Usually older outdated powder like unique will show extreme signs of position sensitivity. Hence the huge sd's/100fps+. Any reloader should take a hard look at their powder choice when it comes to heavy loads in a snub nosed revolver.

Titegroup:
While not my 1st choice of powders it will outperform bullseye in 38spl p+ loads. It is also an extremely high energy powder hot burning powder that takes position sensitivity out of play.
Power pistol:
Another high energy powder that has a hot consistent burn. You can look at unique and pp and say their next to each other on the burn rate charts. But that isn't telling the whole story. It's the temp at which it burns that makes it be extremely consistent shot to shot and not be anywhere near as position sensitive as powders like unique.

That's what makes pp such a high performing powder in 38spl p+ loads. You'll find that you can load max loads of power pistol with 135gr to 160gr bullets and you will not see any huge jumps in velocities from the lighter bullets. Don't know if anyone ever paid attention but alliant doesn't list any pp/lead bullet loads in the 357. But they do in the 38spl. If you want a real eye opener you should contact allaint and ask them why!!!!

When I tested pp vs 2400, the 2400 had similar performance for the @ velocity for the 10-shot/10 bullet strings (100 total shots). But the es's were different.
The 2400 had a es around 70fps with every different 10 bullets/10-shot strings.
The pp had a es around 35fps with every different 10 bullets/10-shot strings.

Actually I think the OP is doing pretty good with his testing. He's using nothing more than a "target" powder and isn't even using full house 38spl standard pressure loads with it in a snub nosed revolver.

Nice job opening up those hp's.

[OS OK]

179903

Mr. yondering, now that I've had time to pick the feathers out of my teeth I want to re-ask this question...

1'st shot...cocked pointing at the ground then raised chest high and pointed at the end of the pipe then fired...(powder should have been in the front of the case...right?) <Could this shot be the low velocity shot that caused the only one of five not to open up...you can see it was considerably slower?
#'s 2-3-4&5 were cocked at chest level while the snubbie was pointing at the target pipe...wouldn't you think these rounds had the small load of Bullseye scattered from one end of the case to the other after recoil of no. 1 shot? <If indeed the powder charge did spread out in the voluminous case, in your opinion, did these shots do the work to mushroom those remaining four casts?

*If that minuscule amount of Bullseye is going to be so problematic...am I behoved to use the bulkiest powder possible to help eradicate this problem, something akin to the good old standby...Unique?

Should I set the chrony up and fire shots purposefully 'powder positioned' to compare FPS? How did you compare?

*The only reason I said earlier that I wasn't going to worry about FPS is that it takes 5 more rounds, 10 total in each test looking for the perfect mushroom. I thought I'd just keep working at the increased speed and just find out later what it was only after I had 100% results...it is what it is and I knew I had to get into the 800 FPS range. I just got tired of carefully weighing those charges only to find myself in the mid 700's, get my drift?

Thanks for your considerations...charlie

*Another consideration I had in mind was to develop a load that was at least .2'ths under maximum...I had hoped to make these rounds using a powder throw and I just don't like to throw up next to the outer limits, otherwise I have to use the auto-throw and trickle up to what I want. That works fine but I would have liked to save the time.

[OS OK]

Forrest_r...you must have been replying while I was, thanks for the info on Titegroup, that I have and can try.

Did they not recommend the PP in the .357" because of heat that it would vaporize lead bare bases and lay it down in the barrels?

I'm going to have to get a new powder manual and re-read all the powder descriptions of those I stock again before I just keep on with a tainted memory or flat out missing these little details regarding extreme heat.

[Blackwater]

One small addition: Just reading the manuals I have, I think the powders I'd concentrate on would be Tightgroup, 231 and CFE Pistol. It seems to be a bit ironic that CFE Pistol has the "copper eraser" in it, but it really seems to shine in .38 Sp. and .45 ACP, at least according to the data in the Hodgdon''s Annual Manual for this year. Power Pistol is another, mentioned above, that seems to be giving good results at std. .38 pressures.

Get into +P and +P+ pressures, and the .38 can be a very good performer in the field, and I'm sure it'd do well for SD, too. IMO, the only "good" loads in .38 Sp. among jbullets is the 110 and maybe 125/135's, but really, only at +P pressures. At the normal pressure levels of .38's, lead really out-performs J's ANY day of the week. More velocity and eaier expansion at the velocities attainable in a 2" .38.

And FWIW, I've pretty well given up on the lighter cast .38's. They just don't seem to have the "impact" of a heavier bullet. Give me a flat pointed lead bullet ANY day in the .38 snubby! And if you can't get the expansion, go for good penetration, even on some 350 lb. monster who's drugged up. Think head shots on a K-5 silhouette target for any followup shots, and practice, practice, practice. It CAN be done.

A snubby is just a tool, like any other gun, and it's really HOW you use it moreso than what you stuff in it that's really the critical determinant in a real life event. Just settle on the fastest possible load you can find that gives good accuracy, and practice until head shots seem "natural."

In a real life situation, we almost always do what we've practiced doing. That upsets some's delicate sensibilities, but SD ain't about delicate sensibilities, or style, or anything BUT simple SURVIVAL. And being able to PLACE your shots where they'll do the most good is or can be the critical element. There really aren't any "magic loads" that make 'em all drop DRT.

All the "magic" is in the shooter's hands, and in the practice he's done. FWIW????

[OS OK]

179923

I suppose that this will be the TiteGroup series...I used the table for a 170g. L-SWC with the range of 3.0g./808FPS ~ 3.4g./864FPS.

I started .2'ths low again hoping to see results, but...not to be. That would have been nice so I can throw the charges without worrying over going over max. load. Oh well...

Primers don't show excessive high pressure. I think I'll go down later and prepare another set at 3.3g.

I've been weight sorting these casts to a max. range of .9'ths...these were 166.0 ~ 166.9g. with the initiator tips. The one on the far right lost .1'th but the others held weight, no loss. This 5 BHN lead seems to mushroom nicely without showing the brittleness I've witnessed in WW Pb.

No, I have not run them over the chrony...don't intend to until I get 100% expansion.

I never heard back from 35remington about which position is the most sensitive powder position in the cases so...I cocked on all these rounds with the snubby pointing down and brought it up to level from there thus insuring that each shot had all the powder against the base of the cast. I'm sure to hear from him prolly later this morning, I hope!

Okay...there it is...stay tuned, more to come!

[Blackwater]

Creating a good snubby load, especially a non-+P one, that'll work, is really one of the most trying tasks I think we do as reloaders, but you're going about it in a very good way, and I anticipate that if you keep going, you'll have a LOT better idea what your snubby will do than most will ever have, and that's always a big plus. I'd also try some solid point bullets, and see what kind of penetration you may be giving up. In my experience, wet news print is fairly close to replicating flesh, but usually indicates more penetration than would be the case in flesh, but not by a terrible amount. FWIW?

[OS OK]

Thanks Dennis...I've read where they have bundled newspapers and bound them and then soaked them for a day before shooting them.
Once I get to 100% compliance with the mushrooming and retaining weight, I'll devise a wet newsprint or phone book method to check penetration.
I don't want to exceed 12" as these are meant to stay in the perp and not plow through and then through a wall and strike an innocent. That's prolly an unusual request on my part but it seems like a real problem that could occur. If it wasn't for that, I'd just load them to +P and forget all this tinkering.

[fredj338]

Fred, I have extensively documented tests here where I see that all the time. Be very happy to point you to it regarding the 38.

With rifles and loads like a partial case full of 4895, it may be 200 fps or more. Testing for it has nothing in common with unicorns.

You might get that result in a large case with a tiny volume of powder. I have never seen it in "normal" loadings, 38sp, 357mag, 44mag, 45colt. Even in the big 45colt with 5gr of RedDot, never got 100fps diff. Could it happen, maybe, in general, no.

[fredj338]

Thanks Dennis...I've read where they have bundled newspapers and bound them and then soaked them for a day before shooting them.
Once I get to 100% compliance with the mushrooming and retaining weight, I'll devise a wet newsprint or phone book method to check penetration.
I don't want to exceed 12" as these are meant to stay in the perp and not plow through and then through a wall and strike an innocent. That's prolly an unusual request on my part but it seems like a real problem that could occur. If it wasn't for that, I'd just load them to +P and forget all this tinkering.

Keep in mind 12" of penetration is a good MIMIMUM. The idea is to get to vitals from any reasonable angle on any reasonable size target. Slap a tape on your body from shoulder to center of your chest. It's barely 12" on the avg size man. A big guy will go 14-15". Any expanding bullet leaving the chest of a bad guy won't have much left to penetrate even drywall much less plywood. Over penetration never got anyone killed. Under penetration has cause many deaths in self defense shootings.

[NavyVet1959]

Of course, all this concern about the bullet remaining in the target's body and doesn't go off through some sheetrock walls is assuming one thing -- all your shots end up hitting the target. If you look at the percentage of hits with cops, you'll see that their hit percentage is not that great.

Two holes to bleed out from is better than just one.

[fredj338]

^^Agree, within reason^^. With lead HP, depending on alloy & design, even a small amount of vel loss can affect expansion dramatically. Here I look pretty good at 845fps, just ok 30fps slower & failure @ 60fps less. Consider shot to shot variation can be 30fps, higher vel is better. Ideally, I want the bullet to hit 70cal & penetrate about 15-16". In wetpack, that equates to about 12".
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v703/fredj338/45-215gr.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/fredj338/media/45-215gr.jpg.html)

[dubber123]

In case I missed it, does the OP have a chorongraph? If not, I wouldn't be surprised to see velocities in the 700 fps. range from a snub, if the speeds noted are only what the manual indicates. My snub loads are a solid 850 fps.+, and were extremely consistent. I suspect actual velocities here are well below that the OP believes, unless they are actually chronographed.

[OS OK]

In case I missed it, does the OP have a chorongraph? If not, I wouldn't be surprised to see velocities in the 700 fps. range from a snub, if the speeds noted are only what the manual indicates. My snub loads are a solid 850 fps.+, and were extremely consistent. I suspect actual velocities here are well below that the OP believes, unless they are actually chronographed.

I don't believe that the chrony is going to read these numbers...I put them here for reference to anyone wondering about what the Lyman book said about min/max loads for this weight range/profile cast.

I've already chrony'd several pages back and left off with 4.0g. of Bullseye at about 743FPS IIRC'ly. I got tired of preparing an extra 5 rounds just to chrony when I wasn't getting 100% expansion all the time. I decided to just work on expansion by steadily increasing load grains and fooling with different suggested powders I had in stock...when I get to where I want on the mushrooms, then I'll see what it chrony's.

[OS OK]

Here's the results of 3.3g. of TiteGroup...with emphasis on powder positioning in the case...I didn't know what to expect here so I threw this set of test in just for observation...what do you think?
I didn't weigh these but you can see that 2 of the group on the left lost weight...were they more powerful, faster FPS?
The group on the right didn't seem to loose weight though the center one seems to have contacted the inside wall of the pipe.

179931
This picture is just a summary of todays work up's...

179932

It looks to me that there is a narrow margin between full openings without weight loss and openings with weight loss...

Does anyone have a call on this so far?

[OS OK]

Of course, all this concern about the bullet remaining in the target's body and doesn't go off through some sheetrock walls is assuming one thing -- all your shots end up hitting the target. If you look at the percentage of hits with cops, you'll see that their hit percentage is not that great.

Two holes to bleed out from is better than just one.

You know that we could start a whole nuther thread on what happens in a confrontation and shootout.

I've watched many Y-Tube surveillance videos where both the robber and the store manager are shooting/running for cover and shooting/firing over the stacks of stuff on the counter and ducking...it's endless. I also watched a man get out of his car and defend a motorcyclist who just got overtaken by a pistol wielding thug and as the thug mounted to escape, the defender calmly shot his butt dead in the street. Then walked over to him to make sure he did good and that the thug no longer had the pistol in hand.
Same with the cops...
I imagine though that there are Vet's out there that will stand up and coldy and boldly set those irons on you and blow your spit into the next county...
it's mindset, it's experience/calm/determination in an emergency situation and the difference is within each and every shooter that gets engaged...and prolly most of all, it just might be that one person is more 'willing' to take a human life than another.

I know this...you get between my wife and her kids or grandkids or just jump her from behind while she's putting her groceries in the car and your going to remember it forever...she's been there and done that so it's no speculation on my part, she rolled around and knocked a grown man out cold. Her comment to me was that she regretted not running him over as she left the store...now that she's older than when that all happened, I think she is even more determined, she's like a Momma Bear with a toothache! I know...I've crossed her too in my young and dumb years 40 years ago!

[35remington]

The "most sensitive position" is the extremes. All the way forward and all the way back. Model both to see just how position sensitive shown as variation between the two.

Titegroup has less position sensitivity than most as long as things are not pushed too far.

Fred, time to test those large case low pressure rounds in a more methodical way positioning the powder at extremes of front to back. The variation is there. You just never have tested specifically for it. Most have not. Never noticing it is not the same thing as it not being present if you have never specifically tried to make it happen.

[dubber123]

I don't believe that the chrony is going to read these numbers...I put them here for reference to anyone wondering about what the Lyman book said about min/max loads for this weight range/profile cast.

I've already chrony'd several pages back and left off with 4.0g. of Bullseye at about 743FPS IIRC'ly. I got tired of preparing an extra 5 rounds just to chrony when I wasn't getting 100% expansion all the time. I decided to just work on expansion by steadily increasing load grains and fooling with different suggested powders I had in stock...when I get to where I want on the mushrooms, then I'll see what it chrony's.

Ok, I missed where you chronoed, but the mid 700s is about what I thought. That is about 100 full Fps. slower than my loads, and that makes a huge difference. The loss of weight you are experiencing is something I never noted in my tests with 50/50. The worst would lose about 10 grains, a grain or so of which was HP cavity filler. The 50/50+tin seems to hold together better than your pure lead, which surprises me.

[OS OK]

I think your mix has grain structure with Sn and Sb giving it a tougher mechanical strength but also requiring that extra humph in speed to open them up...right?

Prolly tomorrow I'll duplicate the last two loads where I'm shooting with the powder to the front and at random to see what Speed it is doing over the chrony for what I've shown thus far.

[fredj338]

I don't believe that the chrony is going to read these numbers...I put them here for reference to anyone wondering about what the Lyman book said about min/max loads for this weight range/profile cast.

I've already chrony'd several pages back and left off with 4.0g. of Bullseye at about 743FPS IIRC'ly. I got tired of preparing an extra 5 rounds just to chrony when I wasn't getting 100% expansion all the time. I decided to just work on expansion by steadily increasing load grains and fooling with different suggested powders I had in stock...when I get to where I want on the mushrooms, then I'll see what it chrony's.
Any decent chrono will read down too arrow speeds, like sub 500fps.
IMO, you are still to fixated on this powder to the front stuff. If the point is to make a bullet to use in a SD situation, that means the load needs to work from any possible shooting position. Work on getting the vel up thru adding more powder. Use the chrono, you will need at lest 750fps to get some expansion with pure lead, even then, the HP will need to be wide. With lead/tin, 25-1, about 825fps w/ the right HP design.
This was quite a bit faster, but note the large/deep HP. It will expand down around 750fps with that alloy.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v703/fredj338/452-251.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/fredj338/media/452-251.jpg.html)

[35remington]

Don't just shoot it with powder to the front.....shoot it with powder to the back as well and tell us the variation between the positioning extremes. For illumination purposes try Titegroup versus, say, Unique or W231.

i must say my 638 seems to get higher velocity than you are getting, but then I mostly use 158 grain SWC's rather than anything heavier.

Since powder to the front gives lowest possible velocities and least expansion, knowing for sure what happens in a worst case (and quite likely scenario) is very much worth knowing. This is, in fact, getting the load to work in "any possible" shooting position.

Adding more powder helps, but you must know if the amount you added still works if the powder is forward in the case and velocity takes a hit. With many powders a lighter charge to the rear gives more velocity than a heavier charge with powder to the front. Find out what charge works no matter where the powder is.....then you are covered no matter what.

[Blackwater]

.35, did you try Unique? Red Dot is one of our bulkier powders, easy to ignite, and that helps reduce the position sensitivity somewhat, I think? Does that jive with your findings? I don't know of any powder that'll bulk up enough in non-+P loads to not have at least some position sensitivity issues. I know Hodgdon's says Titegroup is "position insensitive," but what I think they mean is compared to other powders.

Also, did you try various primers to see if any tended to reduce vel. spread due to powder position? WSP's have always seemed to be a little "hotter" and I often used them, but at that point, I just assumed that they'd do at least a little better with milder loads due to the slightly hotter/longer flash. I never did any real tests, but back then I didn't have a chrono anyway, so wouldn't have known how to really go about it without one of those. What have you found about primers?

The std. vel. .38 snubby load really CAN be a real challenge to get "right."

[OS OK]

I shot this target through the chrony at 10 yards freehanded, no rest, 5 rounds each load and are 3.3g. of TiteGroup. Their respective mushrooming is in the immediate pictures above I did this morning and afternoon. It is a stainless Taurus .357 Mag. snubbie w/.006'' cylinder to barrel gap.

The ones marked with a slash at 12'O-clock ran at 654FPS w/ 37 variation and Powder to the Front.
The ones marked with a slash at 5'O-clock ran at 678FPS w/ 45 variation and Powder to the Rear.
The ones marked with a slash at 7'O-clock ran at 647FPS w/ 4 variation and Random Powder.


179940

The Random powder placement was had by shaking the snubby side to side while holding it parallel to the ground.

[35remington]

BW, yes I did try Unique. For example, top end of standard pressure range is 4.7 grains with a 158. This yielded about 800-810 powder rearward, and about 720 powder forward, Smith 638. 5.4 grains of Power Pistol is also top end of standard pressure range and this does about 850/740.

Did a lot with primers, and while mag primers do give a little higher velocities with a given charge, it does not prevent velocity variations from being equally large. The variation is pretty much the same, but with a few fps added to the numbers on both ends.

Bullseye is not too bad, but Titegroup is somewhat better. Variation with Titegroup approximates only about 50 fps or so under the same conditions outlined above, but permissible loads do not have the top end of Pp when the powder is rearward.

Haven't tried Red Dot extensively except with wadcutters, but airspace is much reduced under those conditions and about any powder will show low extreme spreads under those conditions.

Except for maybe Universal, which is about the least consistent powder in terms of positioning extremes of anything I have found for largish case, moderate pressure cartridges. It is probably the worst powder imaginable for the 38, and falls on its face even in the much smaller 32 long case. If I use up my remaining stash of it, I make an attempt to orient the powder before shooting it......yes, it is that bad.

[35remington]

OS, I have yet to find a powder that gives less variation than Titegroup for this use.

According to Hodgdon, top end for standard pressure 158's is about 3.8 grains, as I recall. As long as your bullet does not seat deeper than standard 158's you may increase the throttle. If I recall correctly this is a 358439???? And I believe that is a deeper seated bullet by a bit.

[OS OK]

Comparing results from days past using Bullseye...



The red ones are how they looked using the 4.0g.of Bullseye without the initiator tips and I clocked these at 725FPS.


179945179944

The Black ones are how they looked with 4.0g. of Bullseye with the initiator tips and except for the one oddball on the left, I think this has been the best expansion yet.

[35remington]

And 654 is.....sluggish compared to what is possible. This is flirting with expansion problems no matter how big the hollow point. I am a bit suspicious of your test results as being representative of real life to some degree....Fred mentioned being a little suspicious of water as well. 100 more fps should be both possible and desirable as a minimum even with a mostly all lead bullet. Still should be controllable. I find a 158 at 750 to be manageable and controllable for repeat fire in a snubby.

Even if the HP just puckers up a bit penetration is greatly reduced but at the same time desirably deep on the far end of FBI spec, which I like. I think you will make something effective but in real life, the mushrooms you see from your results I think mostly will not occur, depending of course on what gets hit.

[35remington]

In your photos above, the 158 red powder coat with puckered cylindrical nose with no mushroom, second from left, would be very desirable for me. A bit more velocity would get that under real life conditions I think. Even this small amount of deformation very noticeably attenuates penetration, which should tell you something.

[OS OK]

179946
OS, I have yet to find a powder that gives less variation than Titegroup for this use.

According to Hodgkin, top end for standard pressure 158's is about 3.8 grains, as I recall. As long as your bullet does not seat deeper than standard 158's you may increase the throttle. If I recall correctly this is a 358439???? And I believe that is a deeper seated bullet by a bit.

I've been picturing the fired cases along with the casts to show primer pressures and thus far they all have been mild as supported by the low FPS.
Yes this is the Ideal 358439 and I'm using the shallow pin for the .38's, the deep pin was tested much earlier without the initiator tips and it was miserable at these low velocities.
In the picture above you can see that I worked the HP-38 up into the +P range on these 'deep pin' casts for the .357 Mag. and the little .38 Special just couldn't handle those at all.

[35remington]

In your photos above, the 158 red powder coat with puckered cylindrical nose with no mushroom, second from left, would be very desirable for me. A bit more velocity would get that under real life conditions I think. Even this small amount of deformation very noticeably attenuates penetration, which should tell you something.

[35remington]

When shooting Universal in the 38 I would load and shoot the gun normally for the most part and it did fine as near as I could tell. But after actually being able to feel a power difference in an aluminum snubby when I had the gun pointed down first, I confirmed that over a chronograph.

If I had Universal loaded in the 38 and I absent mindedly had it pointed down I hope I remember to slap myself in the head and tip it up before I shoot.

[runfiverun]

instead of universal I would go for true blue.
titegroup is very good at igniting in huge cavernous areas and doing so pretty well,
the only thing I can think of that would do better is clay's.
but it is not a powder I would choose for this application, 700 fps target type loads yes,, here no, it's pushing pressure in the 357 using less than 3.5grs.

I think if it were me I would repeat the experiment and see if I could duplicate the results.
if you get a similar outcome you know what your looking at. [powder position, expansion results, velocity]
and then you can take steps towards a more favorable outcome under all situations.

[OS OK]

I was kinda thinking about using what I found thus far and moving into newsprint or phone books soaked in water to see about penetration and how they expand in that medium.

Not sure..."I'm ruminating on it."

[yondering]

It looks to me that there is a narrow margin between full openings without weight loss and openings with weight loss...

Does anyone have a call on this so far?

I believe I've discussed this a bit in one of your other threads on the subject - that's just the kind of performance you're going to get with a hollow point of that design, regardless of the alloy.

The best you can do with that bullet (other than re-shaping the hollow point) is err on the high side and don't worry about weight loss. Weight retention with low velocity hollow point bullets is way overrated these days; if the bullet still has some decent weight in the shank, it doesn't hurt to let some of the nose expand and tear off. Losing 20-30% of the bullets weight is not a big deal if it still has a solid shank.

Also, if you're testing into water, you need to be looking for full expansion and shedding most of the nose, if you expect to get reliable expansion in meat. Water is the easiest thing to get expansion; if it doesn't work reliably in water, it probably won't work at all in real application.

The best killing low-velocity hollow point I've ever used (maybe I'm a little biased because I designed it) is a subsonic rifle bullet I made for the 35 Remington; it often holds the nose together, but sometimes in the deer I've shot with it, the nose fragments apart and does a lot more damage to the surrounding organs, while the base penetrates out the far shoulder. See the pic below. Yes, that's a 38 Special case, but you do not want to run this 255gr bullet in your snub revolver. :)

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c26/zthang43/Bang/molds/IMG_2765.jpg

[OS OK]

I can certainly heat them up a bit, even move into +P range and shed the shrooms off.

You think that working that up in the water pipe or working up a good mushroom in wet news print would be the next step?

That looks like a badbutted round!

[yondering]

OS OK, I urge you to take another look at your bullet's hollow point shape and think about what you can do to improve it. Making the nose opening larger will help a lot with what you're trying to do, and doesn't have to involve modifying the mold.

I'm guessing you probably own a luber-sizer press? Think about making yourself some hollow point top punches, like these in the pic below. They are used to form existing hollow points into different shapes, and can be used during just normal sizing, or as separate steps. Sometimes I'll use more than one on each bullet if I feel like experimenting.

These pictured below are all hand made from random pieces of bolts, screwdriver bits, etc, except for the punch at 12:00 top, which came from Mihec and is the basic design you want to consider first. The two on the left are great for expanding just the entrance of the hollow cavity; I'll sometimes use one of these in combination with that top one. The two on the right are great if you want to split the hollow point into segments; 3 or 4 segments is much better than higher numbers, just FYI.

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c26/zthang43/Bang/molds/IMG_1102.jpg

Here are some possibilities with these tools:

Mihec 452-200 with expanded noses:
http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c26/zthang43/Bang/molds/IMG_0812.jpg

Mihec 401-160 and 452-200, bottom left and top right are as-cast, the rest are modified with top punches
http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c26/zthang43/Bang/molds/IMG_0609a.jpg

[yondering]

I can certainly heat them up a bit, even move into +P range and shed the shrooms off.

You think that working that up in the water pipe or working up a good mushroom in wet news print would be the next step?

That looks like a badbutted round!

I would continue working with water until you get something that sheds the nose at least 2 out of 5 bullets, then try that load in wet paper.

That blue subsonic rifle bullet above is a great deer killer for a suppressed hunting rifle. I've used it in a 357 Marlin lever action, 35 Rem 760 pump, 35 Whelen bolt action, and a 35 Herrett-based wildcat in a couple AR15 rifles, all loaded to 1,000 fps for use with suppressors.

[OS OK]

Suppressed heh? Quiet and deadly...a close quarters equalizer.

Ok...I think I can get them to start shedding, like I said the +P range oughta get me there...we'll see.

Maybe I should push on the TiteGroup a little?

[OS OK]

OS OK, I urge you to take another look at your bullet's hollow point shape and think about what you can do to improve it. Making the nose opening larger will help a lot with what you're trying to do, and doesn't have to involve modifying the mold.

I'm guessing you probably own a luber-sizer press? Think about making yourself some hollow point top punches, like these in the pic below. They are used to form existing hollow points into different shapes, and can be used during just normal sizing, or as separate steps. Sometimes I'll use more than one on each bullet if I feel like experimenting.

These pictured below are all hand made from random pieces of bolts, screwdriver bits, etc, except for the punch at 12:00 top, which came from Mihec and is the basic design you want to consider first. The two on the left are great for expanding just the entrance of the hollow cavity; I'll sometimes use one of these in combination with that top one. The two on the right are great if you want to split the hollow point into segments; 3 or 4 segments is much better than higher numbers, just FYI.

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c26/zthang43/Bang/molds/IMG_1102.jpg

Here are some possibilities with these tools:

Mihec 452-200 with expanded noses:
http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c26/zthang43/Bang/molds/IMG_0812.jpg

Mihec 401-160 and 452-200, bottom left and top right are as-cast, the rest are modified with top punches
http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c26/zthang43/Bang/molds/IMG_0609a.jpg

Oh heck...stop the presses...halt the train! I never thought of using the old lube/sizer like this! You got me going now bud!

You just changed everything...I'll end up falling asleep tonight thinking about making these HP modifiers!

THANK YOU yondering!

[yondering]

Keep in mind you'll only be able to open up the nose a certain amount, because it enlarges the OD as well, but play around with it, there are lots of possibilities. Don't be afraid to open the nose too far and then close it back down again either, that can work pretty well. An assortment of more traditional top punches works to close up the noses if you go too far.

I still maintain that casting the hollow point shape you want in the first place is better, but this method lets you improve on an old design like the mold you have.

You may find some benefit in fabricating an adjustable depth stop on the press if you're going to do a lot of these, but it isn't necessary for just experimenting at first.

[OS OK]

179968
I'm thinking of tapering these so they won't stick in the HP and sharpening the edges for a clean deep cut out near the perimeter or beyond...use the RN top punch to reshape if necessary but leave a larger HP hole too...then fill it with the initiator tip...

Then go back to these 155 grain SWC's meant for the .357"...these have the deep hole.

If I can get the Pb mix just right and the speed up some...these should turn into 3 blade turbo props...

Any hints?

[NavyVet1959]

I experimented with phillips bit to drive a hollow point into a non-hollow-point bullet about a year ago. I was just using a phillips bit in a drill press and trying to center it just by sight. I was semi-successful. Other than centering it, the problem that I had was that the bit tended to stuck in the bullet and I often had to wiggle it a bit to get it unstuck. I never tried grinding / filing down the edges of the bit to make it smoother though. I gave up on it because of the difficulty that I had with consistently centering the bit to make the the hollowpoint.

http://images.spambob.net/navy-vet-1959/phillips-hollow-point-320w.jpg

[runfiverun]

you keep going and we will have you swaging pretty soon.
you'll be pre-programming the nose then folding it all back into shape like I do with my 44's.
it's a pretty expensive road your looking down...
ahhh crud that reminds me I need to get some threaded punches made for the new ram..

[rintinglen]

Keep in mind 12" of penetration is a good MIMIMUM. The idea is to get to vitals from any reasonable angle on any reasonable size target. Slap a tape on your body from shoulder to center of your chest. It's barely 12" on the avg size man. A big guy will go 14-15". Any expanding bullet leaving the chest of a bad guy won't have much left to penetrate even drywall much less plywood. Over penetration never got anyone killed. Under penetration has cause many deaths in self defense shootings.

The first shooting the LASO had with their then-new Beretta's resulted in a dead pregnant woman killed by a 9mm which penetrated the robbery suspect the officers were trading shots with. Both the mother and her fetus died.

[fredj338]

The first shooting the LASO had with their then-new Beretta's resulted in a dead pregnant woman killed by a 9mm which penetrated the robbery suspect the officers were trading shots with. Both the mother and her fetus died.
Over penetrated what, arm, leg, neck? That is the point. More shots miss than hit in LE shootings. A shot through non COM is likely to exit. Shots leaving the thorax, JHP, not much left in terms of vel & energy. If your choice is more penetration or less, more is going to be better, within reason. Again, talking JHP, not solids.

[fredj338]

I shot this target through the chrony at 10 yards freehanded, no rest, 5 rounds each load and are 3.3g. of TiteGroup. Their respective mushrooming is in the immediate pictures above I did this morning and afternoon. It is a stainless Taurus .357 Mag. snubbie w/.006'' cylinder to barrel gap.

The ones marked with a slash at 12'O-clock ran at 654FPS w/ 37 variation and Powder to the Front.
The ones marked with a slash at 5'O-clock ran at 678FPS w/ 45 variation and Powder to the Rear.
The ones marked with a slash at 7'O-clock ran at 647FPS w/ 4 variation and Random Powder.




The Random powder placement was had by shaking the snubby side to side while holding it parallel to the ground.
If you are not getting above 700fps, you are going to need a wide/deep/soft lead HP to get reliable expansion in wetpack, IMO.

[OS OK]

I picked one of those three blade tips and ground it with the dremmel, made sharp outer edges and a slight taper to the shank to open the mouth a tad in hopes it would allow me to get it off the lube sizer once I pressed it in. I used a small allen wrench between the top shaft and the die hex nut to keep a constant depth when I pressed it in...it worked fine...yeah!
Theres the first test round of five with the initiator tip.


180009180011
I started off with the 4.2g. load of Bullseye under this 155g. SWC-HP with the deep pin (for the .357") and that load blew all the wings off but 2 of them on the right.

180012
I ran decreasing loads by .2'ths all the way down till I finally punted with the load below of 3.3g. and it still tore the wings off of most of them...This is all 5 BHN Pb.

180014
I also trie 3 different loads of Bullseye...on 7.4 BHN deep pin casts I made last week...4.2g. - 4.0g. - 3.7g. They all tore off also but the interesting thing about those is all the wings tore off in smaller peices...in other words, to me, it looked as if they were too brittle.

I dunnoh...I think I'll wait for some input from you fellas before I go any further. I am satisfied though they did fragment...could be that is desirable especially since they frag in such big chunks.

Oh boy...see what you started yondering! And R5R...I swear I aint gonna sell my Harley just to tool up for swaging...I don't think.

[NavyVet1959]

Well, as long as you are testing, you might as well try the old split the nose crossways down to the driving band technique that people used to claim was good. It might be interesting to see how that would stack up to a hollow point with your current alloy and velocity. I seem to remember that they didn't always split apart, but maybe with a hollowpoint in the center, it would be different.

You're wanting a fragmenting bullet, right?

What about filling a mold up with steel BBs and then pouring lead on top of it to bind everything together?

[OS OK]

180029180030

Naw Navy...I really had imagined having a big 3 wing turbo prop looking thing. These deep cavities make for long petals if I can just keep them hanging on...on second choice though if they were to fragment in large peices leaving the core/base to penetrate further...well, that doesn't seem so bad either.
I wouldn't want to get shot with one of these things as they are.
BB's...oh yeah, I got time to start fooling around with that...it ain't that bad of an idea though, soft lead would prolly make a frag round like a mini hand grenade. Don't think you could put much pressure behind it though. I have found a couple of these HP's that had some BB size cavities between the end of the 'cold' pin and the drive band...pressure blew it out the side in the lube groove...strange looking.

[NavyVet1959]

Just remember, if it spreads out too much, you could just end up with nasty shallow wound.

[Blackwater]

That shallow wound is what bothers me about seeking expansion at lower velocity levels. And modifying the noses makes me concerned for accuracy. Up close they'd be fine, but you never really know what you might run into, and I like to have all the accuracy I can get, as well as all the power I can get. Snubbies really make it hard to settle on "what's the best load for SD?" I'm taking everything in this thread in as deeply as I know how.

And thanks to .35 for the followup info. I think some of those things you cite are at least a significant part of what makes finding a really good load for .38's such a trying proposition. Personally, I think I'm gonna' go with a solid bullet so I can be SURE I get sufficient penetration, even on a really big antagonist. Snubby .38's are nice and compact, and conceal well, and can be fired while still inside a pocket, but the big question of what they'll do when a bullet hits an offender is always the final arbiter, and we can never truly know about that until the after shooting results are plain to see, and that could include OUR bodies lying there beside the bad guy! All a gun can do is give us a fighting chance. It's no guarantee. Within those perameters, I think I'll stick with the solids with FP's. But I'm certainly not averse to learning something new!

This is a great thread, mainly because of the experimentation and reports on other experiments. Nothing like proving things out, before settling on a method, especially when our lives might be at stake one day.

[NavyVet1959]

Home Defense? 12-gauge pump... Disagreements with 12-gauges tend to get solved fairly quickly.

BB-shot size would be the absolute smallest I would even consider. I've seen bird shot bounce off armadillos, but BBs punch through. Personally, I keep mine loaded with OOO-buck though...

[yondering]

180029180030

Naw Navy...I really had imagined having a big 3 wing turbo prop looking thing. These deep cavities make for long petals if I can just keep them hanging on...on second choice though if they were to fragment in large peices leaving the core/base to penetrate further...well, that doesn't seem so bad either.
I wouldn't want to get shot with one of these things as they are.
BB's...oh yeah, I got time to start fooling around with that...it ain't that bad of an idea though, soft lead would prolly make a frag round like a mini hand grenade. Don't think you could put much pressure behind it though. I have found a couple of these HP's that had some BB size cavities between the end of the 'cold' pin and the drive band...pressure blew it out the side in the lube groove...strange looking.

You're on the right track now. You'll find that with that deep and non-tapered hollow point design, they'll tend to either open up all the way, or not much at all, no in between.

You could try some of those in wetpack as-is, and will probably get pretty good results. Even if those big petals come off, they'll just add to the trauma.

I suggest trying a round punch as well though, to open up the hollow point without splitting the nose into petals. I think that will give you a better shot at the large expansion you're looking for.

[runfiverun]

try an un slit steel shot wad with 1-1/4 oz's of number-4's at 1400 fps.
slit the wad only 1/3rd of the way down.
armadillo's won't shrug that off.

[Blackwater]

OK, Run, I've got to take that bait. I've heard of unslit wads becoming "slugs," but what does it do to slit it only 1/3 of the way down? That's some stuff I've never done or even seen done here.

[OS OK]

180092

Well this is it for the turbo prop idea...moving on to just flaring out the hole and using the initiator tip.

This picture is the 5 BHN again with the deep hole but loaded over 2.9 Bullseye (.1'th over minimum)...just cant get the wide petals and keep them intact.
If I had to choose, I'd go with the 3 wingers but using 4 or 4.2g. of Bullseye to get max expansion and max penetration for what that's worth at 747 FPS or thereabouts.

I know many of you disagree with the development of this so called in house load and you keep on about penetration but from what I've discovered thus far...I'll bet none of you would want to be on the receiving end of any of these, some of them might not get 1/2 way through but the trauma is going to be over the top as far as tissue is concerned.

Next, prolly next week, I'll fashion an expander tip for use in the lube sizer and we'll have another go at it.

[runfiverun]

it still lets go of the shot but further down range.
wad petal manipulation will affect the pattern of your trap loads too.
an 8 petal wad versus a 4 petal wad or a stiffer plastic all affects the pattern at distance.
but back to the stiff wad with short slits.
at say 30 yards 90% of the shot is still in the cup and the 10% that aint isn't spreading yet.
it's basically clustered up in front of the wad.
when the whole thing hits a solid object the slits open up and dumps all of the shot into the target.
after about 40 yds the petals slow down the wad and frees the shot [you need a felt in the bottom to let it all go] this extends the distance you have a tight pattern, shortens the shot string and keeps more pellets on target.
it also allows the higher velocity without blowing out the pattern.

performance shot shell loading is as fascinating and fun as this cast boolit stuff is.
I probably have at least 12 different 12ga. loads kicking around the place for different things
right now.
one gun one choke 12 different results.

back to the scheduled programming.:lol:

what do those petals weigh?
if it's anything over 50grs. they weight more than 00 buckshot.
at 25 yds that's enough speed and weight to create secondary wound effects.
just the opening of them before they shear off will create a large internal wound, a hit in the arm would be damn painful.
and if they tear off unevenly they will contribute towards the projectile tumbling.
mushrooms don't have to be pretty to be effective.

I have a couple of perfectly mushroomed bullets here I took out of deer.
I personally would call them a failure because they didn't exit.
yep I took them out of completely dead animals.
but without the exit wound I had no way to track the animal if it had walked/run off.

[OS OK]

That's a good question about the petal weight.

They weigh from 11 to 26 grains...(I weight them at random, didn't look for the biggest or smallest, just random).

At 750 FPM (of course the round is slowing as it expands...) they enter the meat at 33,750 RPM...say they were to slow to 1/2 speed before the petals were to let go, they would be rotating like little propellers at 16,875 RPM...that oughta be enough energy to sling them off at almost a right angle to the entry wound.

I suppose I should send some of these to a fella to shoot into the jell, if he would agree. (Elvis Ammo, we talk a lot on the You-Tube about his experiments) Could be that they might travel out several inches in the initial large wound cavity?

That's a pretty good observation on your part...something to chew on anyway. If I made a punch that cut the HP in only 2 pieces...they would be even larger...dang, this is getting deep here in this rabbit hole!

charlie

[NavyVet1959]

Well, just to take you further down the rabbit hole, you could make the hollow point a lot deeper and put a gas check on the base to keep from getting a blowout of the base while also cutting deep score marks in the sides of the bullet. :)

[W.R.Buchanan]

Boy, I hope you are doing all the reloading of these rounds at the range with one of my Hand Presses? :mrgreen:

This ongoing experiment would be the perfect application for the tool.

Note the entire Reloading Kit in the Green Cabela's duffle bag.

The bag just so happens to be on sale right now for $9.95! at Cabela's.com

Randy

[runfiverun]

that's a pretty nice bag.


dang it Randy...

[JakeBlanton]

Boy, I hope you are doing all the reloading of these rounds at the range with one of my Hand Presses? :mrgreen: This ongoing experiment would be the perfect application for the tool. Note the entire Reloading Kit in the Green Cabela's duffle bag. The bag just so happens to be on sale right now for $9.95! at Cabela's.com Randy So, your press comes with a casting pot, powder coating system, and a way to reform noses? I'm impressed! :)

[WilliamDahl]

So, your press comes with a casting pot, powder coating system, and a way to reform noses? I'm impressed! :) LMAO! I will have to admit though, his press does look like it would exercise an entirely different set of muscles than what I normally use while reloading. Now, if he could just get Suzanne Summers to advertise it for him, he would make MILLIONS! ;)

[OS OK]

Luckily my range and testing area is just a few steps outside the shop...no need for a portable range loading setup.

[yondering]

Luckily my range and testing area is just a few steps outside the shop...no need for a portable range loading setup.

Amen to that!

Sometimes I get tired of running up and down the stairs over and over to go shoot outside (reload in the basement), but that's just me being spoiled, compared to guys that have to go somewhere else. There's a lot more testing you can get done if you don't have to drive to the range every time! Not to mention shooting things that public ranges won't let you shoot. :mrgreen:

[OS OK]

I spoke with Elvis Ammo over in S.C. about doing some gel test on these 3 wingers and he kindly agreed...so, got that in the works.

I'll make up a new batch of 5 BHN...
cast'em
size'em
PC'em
Size'em
Punch'em
Fill'em
Mail'em

Dang, Im glad all casts don't require such detail!

[Blackwater]

You know, OS OK, I definitely don't want to pour cold water on your idea or your search and tests, but what you've finding kind'a reconfirms my opinion that the best std. pressure .38 loads are a heavyish FP with as good a "cutting edge" as can be found, and as broad a flat as can be found. Drive that as fast as data will allow, and that's probably optimum for all around use in a snubby .38. But I'm STILL watching your results with a keen eye, and wouldn't hate at all to be proven wrong on this.

I've seen some awfully big and tough guys who were on the bad side, and the thoughts of not having enough penetration for one of those kind'a haunts me. They can be very hard to stop. One I did a PSI on, an escapee with 3 others from a prison transport van, wound up in TN and there was a shootout. The big guy was shot 5 times in the chest area with 125 gr. .357 factory loads. This was back when JHP's were still being "perfected." He survived, at great medical cost to the state, and is still in prison today, I believe. Guys like that take a head shot to stop them. The spine will work, too, usually, but the head shot is the gold standard when you encounter someone who just won't stop and realize he's dead. Big, tough, drugged up guys can be notoriously hard to stop. And few have the presence of mind to take a head shot, and many don't have the ability to make that shot.

I don't have one yet, but I've been looking at NOE's LBT type 160 gr. bullet for my Colt DS. Just my choice, and I can't claim to know it all or to have tested it all. Like I said before, a really good snubby load CAN be one of our hardest challenges to work. Only thing I'm pretty certain of is that I want my bullet to be heavyish, and as fast as I can drive it and not damage the gun. I think that NOE with its sharp nose to cut flesh and blood vessels cleanly will cause the maximum bleeding and thus, the quickest loss of consciousness. That's 44man's theory, and it is the only theory I've ever heard that explains the LBT type bullet's effectiveness.

I just hope neither of us ever have to "test" our loads for real! But then, we can never really know we won't, either. And any load will likely do a good job on a head shot, so .... it may really be a more moot point than either of us tend to think? Still, we never know unless until we strive and prove our loads in tests. If nothing else, it gives us the confidence if we ever need to use it seriously, to conduct ourselves in the best and most appropriate manner. Just remember to practice the head shots on a K-5 silhouette target regularly. In action, we almost always do whatever we've done in practice, and that probably matters more than which gun or load we're using, really.

Keep up the great work. I'm goin' ta' school on your results, and loving the posts.

[OS OK]

Dennis I'm learning more fooling around with this ridiculous load than almost anything before in casting.

I'm like that, one of those solo type lone walkers who enjoys his own company in the shop immensely...of course I always have my consultant at my side...Bubby, pictured to the left there!

[W.R.Buchanan]

So, your press comes with a casting pot, powder coating system, and a way to reform noses? I'm impressed! :)

All that stuff goes into the intermediate size Cabela's Bag @$19.95.

Randy

[W.R.Buchanan]

LMAO! I will have to admit though, his press does look like it would exercise an entirely different set of muscles than what I normally use while reloading. Now, if he could just get Suzanne Summers to advertise it for him, he would make MILLIONS! ;)

We sold the first 36 of these tools here in a Group Buy in 2 days!

They are now available at www.buchananprecisionmachine.com

I've got a call into Ms. Sommers, she hasn't called back yet. Still waiting for $Millions.

Randy

[W.R.Buchanan]

I've seen some awfully big and tough guys who were on the bad side, and the thoughts of not having enough penetration for one of those kind'a haunts me. They can be very hard to stop. One I did a PSI on, an escapee with 3 others from a prison transport van, wound up in TN and there was a shootout. The big guy was shot 5 times in the chest area with 125 gr. .357 factory loads. This was back when JHP's were still being "perfected." He survived, at great medical cost to the state, and is still in prison today, I believe. Guys like that take a head shot to stop them. The spine will work, too, usually, but the head shot is the gold standard when you encounter someone who just won't stop and realize he's dead. Big, tough, drugged up guys can be notoriously hard to stop. And few have the presence of mind to take a head shot, and many don't have the ability to make that shot.

BW: we practice this at Front Sight and it is called "Failure to Stop." it consists of a timed Controlled pair to the chest, and then when they call "HEAD" you put one in the head box.

This can be the result of a very determined opponent or body armor or a poorly performing bullet. In any event the head shot stops the onslaught. Even if you hit a helmet you are still going to ring the guys bell and I doubt few are going to get up very soon after getting clobbered. This is where .45's really stand out as the hammers are twice as big as 9mm's.

The British had a thing they called "Mozambique," which is essentially the same thing except the last shot is not optional. It was done so that when they went past an enemy they didn't have to worry about anyone getting up and coming at them from the rear.

I guess if you are going to kill someone you should make sure they are dead before you move on, and I am by no means any kind of expert on this subject,,, but I do understand the concept and it makes perfect sense everywhere but in the movies where the guy you thought you stopped, miraculously returns to haunt you later on. I am always screaming at the TV!

Randy

[OS OK]

Oh so we have another TV screamer here...I'm constantly hollering at the goofs on the Alaska Gold Rush and the other Gold Dredging show where they use 8 ans 10" dredges under the ice in winter and then by boats in the summer. How do some of these goofs survive...God must truly love us all!

[runfiverun]

8 and 10" dredges and then a 6" sluice box.

[Blackwater]

I understand completely, OS OK. Did a fair amount of this myself once, and it IS edifying. Never had a chrono back then, or I'd be smarter than I am now, so you're lucky. Chronos are worth SO much more than they cost! The thing that sold me on that old and still not recommended load of 7.6 gr. Blue Dot and a soft 158 gr. HP was its recoil. It was noticably "hotter" than any other load I tried. That's why I shot few of them. Had a box of 500 and still have the majority of them. But they're very "special purpose" projectiles, and mostly sit around waiting for a time when I need them one day ... maybe.

Keep up the good work. The softer the alloy, the less there's a need for tin to keep it maleable, and keep it from fragmenting the petals off, if that were what you're looking for. I've long wanted to see what a wide, cavernous HP would do if it had a HP that was basically a 60 degree sides to it. I always thought it would expand and yet the shank would penetrate well. My old Lee 358-150-SWCHP was a pretty good bullet in my tests. Like yours, the petals usually broke off when cast of ACWW's. Add in 4-6% tin and they remained attached, and spread a little more open than the ACWW's did with no tin. Alloy can be your friend or your enemy in the pursuit of expansion. So many variables, and only one lifetime in which to try them all! Still, I like the way you're approaching it. It's not how I'd have done it, but that's why I like it. I'm doing my best to go to school on what you're doing. Thanks, and thanks for putting it here where so many might benefit or at least find it really interesting.

[OS OK]

Not one time ever in all the seasons I've watched have I ever seen one of the fellas panning their tailings to see how efficient they are catching the gold, not one time even discussed. In 50 years there will be another Gold Rush, this time it'll be miners working all the tailings left behind.
I think the producers purposely enlist a percentage of dummies so they can get the ratings up with the controversy they generate.

[OS OK]

I understand completely, OS OK. Did a fair amount of this myself once, and it IS edifying. Never had a chrono back then, or I'd be smarter than I am now, so you're lucky. Chronos are worth SO much more than they cost! The thing that sold me on that old and still not recommended load of 7.6 gr. Blue Dot and a soft 158 gr. HP was its recoil. It was noticably "hotter" than any other load I tried. That's why I shot few of them. Had a box of 500 and still have the majority of them. But they're very "special purpose" projectiles, and mostly sit around waiting for a time when I need them one day ... maybe.

Keep up the good work. The softer the alloy, the less there's a need for tin to keep it maleable, and keep it from fragmenting the petals off, if that were what you're looking for. I've long wanted to see what a wide, cavernous HP would do if it had a HP that was basically a 60 degree sides to it. I always thought it would expand and yet the shank would penetrate well. My old Lee 358-150-SWCHP was a pretty good bullet in my tests. Like yours, the petals usually broke off when cast of ACWW's. Add in 4-6% tin and they remained attached, and spread a little more open than the ACWW's did with no tin. Alloy can be your friend or your enemy in the pursuit of expansion. So many variables, and only one lifetime in which to try them all! Still, I like the way you're approaching it. It's not how I'd have done it, but that's why I like it. I'm doing my best to go to school on what you're doing. Thanks, and thanks for putting it here where so many might benefit or at least find it really interesting.

I feel like the one who's benefiting here Dennis, some of these guys really humble me...pointing out things that I'd not considered.
I wish we all lived in the same county...wouldn't that be sweet?
Instead of Poker Night at someones house it'd be Casting Night or High Volume Loading Night...use your imagination.

EDIT: I sent 50 of the 3 wing Turbo Prop HP's to Elvis Ammo this afternoon...he gracefully agreed to test them in the gel for me.

[yondering]

I've long wanted to see what a wide, cavernous HP would do if it had a HP that was basically a 60 degree sides to it. I always thought it would expand and yet the shank would penetrate well.

That is exactly the type of hollow point I recommended for OS OK to start with; it works very well, and has a much wider velocity window that it works in.

Here are some examples that I made (modified from other molds). The hollow points are not exactly 60 degrees, but are the same idea. The angle of the hollow point (and therefore the depth) was tuned for the intended velocity of a specific load. The 38 Special bullet is essentially for the same kind of load OS OS OK is looking for.

215gr .45 Auto (from 230 TC Lee mold) designed for ~1,000 fps
http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c26/zthang43/Bang/molds/IMG_2350a.jpg

125gr Mihec (I just modified the hollow point) designed for 1,250 fps
http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c26/zthang43/Bang/molds/IMG_2347b.jpg

190gr .45 Auto (from 200 RF Lee mold) for 700-800 fps
http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c26/zthang43/Bang/molds/IMG_2341a.jpg

135gr 38 Spl (from 158gr RF Lee 6 cavity mold) for 700-800 fps target load
http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c26/zthang43/Bang/molds/IMG_3198a.jpg

[OS OK]

Yondering...I have not 'poopooed' your advice or taken it lightly. I appreciate it and am learning from you...I also appreciate your posting your pictures along with the hard earned data that you had to experiment for to obtain. Thank you and all the others too. It was my hopes to one day build a thread on casting Hollow Points and manipulating the Pb blend, working the speed and all that encompasses to build a HP that actually works in your gun.
So many people are casting or buying HP's and think they will automatically get good results...when they are mistaken and many of them realize that but don't know what to do about it.
This old Ideal mold with the Keith style SWC-HP is my second HP mold to purchase used. HP technology has increased substantially since the 30's and it's a lot easier now to buy one with a wide diameter HP and if you have enough speed or you can actually manipulate the Pb blend you can get great results with a variety of hardnesses. The snub nose is a different animal to work with and this Keith HP is difficult too...I'm challenged to make it work...that's me.
I'm just getting a kick out of all the things I'm learning that I can do to modify this cast and get outrageous results. I don't learn by not doing so I fiddle with things that others might walk away from. I'm just like that...I stated what I wanted to do and I'm almost there...gel test coming in a week or so and we'll see about penetration...it just keeps going on, I like that.

[NavyVet1959]

I think the producers purposely enlist a percentage of dummies so they can get the ratings up with the controversy they generate.

I've watched the dive operations a couple of times and I have to wonder how these people have managed to stay alive.

[runfiverun]

I catch myself saying 'what are you idiots doing?, waay to often when I watch those shows.
the wife just looks at me like I should know they can't hear me [and I do] but I can't help myself.
maybe that's the draw to them?

Charlie another thing that will help you learn what is happening here is to take a magnifying glass and look at the edges of the petals.
not just the outer edges but the inner edges too you will be able to see how the alloy rolls over or smears.
comparing that to the other alloys and speeds will show you a lot.

[yondering]

OS OK, no worries, I didn't mean it that way, just sharing more pics since the cone shaped hollow point was asked about, and I've done a bunch of them. I saw your enthusiasm for modifying the noses with different top punches; that is how I started down the hollow point experimenting path too. Keep at it; this path is longer than you might think!

You are right that hollow point technology has come a long way since the 30's, however, I can tell you that as of today, very few hollow point molds being made have well designed hollow points, even by many of the custom makers on this board. That's not to put anyone down, but a lot of people have theories on what makes a good hollow point, without the testing time to figure out what really works.

[OS OK]

I catch myself saying 'what are you idiots doing?, waay to often when I watch those shows.
the wife just looks at me like I should know they can't hear me [and I do] but I can't help myself.
maybe that's the draw to them?

Charlie another thing that will help you learn what is happening here is to take a magnifying glass and look at the edges of the petals.
not just the outer edges but the inner edges too you will be able to see how the alloy rolls over or smears.
comparing that to the other alloys and speeds will show you a lot.

Yes, that caught my attention early on...it wasn't at all what I expected to see. Funny you should mention that because it's one of those things I hadn't thought through yet...it was so unexpected that I'm still mulling on how that happens. I expected too, to see clean quick tears where the inside scribe marks were, not so...they are wide, stretched apart and uneven. I would love to see a head on video of that happening at a million frames per second.

This scribing on the interior just blows me away...seeing them open like propellers and open to such extreme OD's has my little handloaders network over here just completely amazed.

[yondering]

This scribing on the interior just blows me away...seeing them open like propellers and open to such extreme OD's has my little handloaders network over here just completely amazed.

You ought to try a triangular punch instead of the 4 sided one. There is one that works very well in my picture a few pages back next to the modified phillips bit. Three scores in the cavity instead of four results in more rigidity in each petal; they still open up well but tend to hold together more.
Anything more than 4 petals is not very effective with cast bullets in my experience, and 3 is generally better than 4.

[Blackwater]

Yondering, did you ever try adding up to 6% tin to your conical HP's to see if it kept the petals from breaking off? The testing I did showed a big difference in the performance of tin rich HP's and straight ACWW's. It was rather remarkable, or at least I thought it was back then. I was using a Lee 358-150-SWCHP that they no longer produce. It had a pretty big (for .357" dia.) HP and it was pretty deep as well. So it opened easily, and getting it to open was never a problem. But getting it to penetrate as much as I wanted it to was the bigger challenge at that time. I found that the extra tin kept those petals on and peel back instead of breaking off, and penetration was also just a bit better. I was shooting some pretty warmish loads in .357, too, in addition to +P .38's. The .357's expanded very well, and the .38's expanded, but significantly less than in .357. Thsi was to be expected, of course, due to the velocities involved.

And who did the HP conversion on your Lee molds? Those are some very good looking .38 bullets. I like them.

As a 3rd question, isn't the cone shaped HP's part of Lyman's "Devastator" series of molds?

[yondering]

Yeah, I've experimented with a wide range of tin content. My conclusion was that I could use tin to improve hollow point performance, but I could do the same or even better by tuning the hollow point itself and using WW alloy. I rarely add tin anymore, just because I don't need it. If you don't have the ability to modify your hollow point, tin can be useful.

I did the hollow point conversions on my molds. 99% of the handgun bullets I shoot these days are hollow points, from either 2 or 6 cavity Lee molds. Sometimes I do it for expansion, sometimes for accuracy improvement, often both.

Yes, the Devastator series does use cone shaped hollow points, and they tend to work well. The hollow points tend to be too deep IMO unless you're running pretty light loads, but those designs work well within their intended velocity window. Of course, the tedium of casting hollow points one at a time with a removable pin gets old pretty fast. The same designs in a Mihec mold with a slightly shorter hollow point cavity would be a great option.

[OS OK]

180489180490
You ought to try a triangular punch instead of the 4 sided one. There is one that works very well in my picture a few pages back next to the modified phillips bit. Three scores in the cavity instead of four results in more rigidity in each petal; they still open up well but tend to hold together more.
Anything more than 4 petals is not very effective with cast bullets in my experience, and 3 is generally better than 4.

yonder...that's what I've been doing, it was the first choice of my bits that I modified.
Left photo...two wings still intact and one torn off. It's why I nicknamed them 'turbo-props'.
Right photo...the 3 sided point after putting it in the drill press and going after it with a dremel type air tool.

[Blackwater]

OS OK, it might be really interesting to cast a few with @ 4% tin in them. Tin seems to keep the bullet "glued" together on impact much more reliably than just plain WW's. You might want to try that when you get a bit further along the road in your tests. And thanks a bunch for posting them here. I think a lot of folks are watching this thread, and going to school on your results. Thanks!

[OS OK]

I'll keep it going Dennis but at the moment I'm on hold awaiting the gel test that Elvis Ammo is going to do. He should have 50 of them any day now.
I'll keep at it cause I'm learning sooo much and having fun with it too.

I have lots of variations on the way. I'm going to move off the snub nose revolver soon so I can deal in realistic velocities. Up towards 900 FPM, then I'll throw in some Sn.

[yondering]

180489180490

yonder...that's what I've been doing, it was the first choice of my bits that I modified.
Left photo...two wings still intact and one torn off. It's why I nicknamed them 'turbo-props'.
Right photo...the 3 sided point after putting it in the drill press and going after it with a dremel type air tool.

Ah, duh, I saw that in your earlier pics and must have spaced out last night. Carry on then!

[OS OK]

Today I thought about using 7.4 BHN, 155 grain SWC-HP's (deep pin) modified with a new point that scribes the interior of the HP in only 2 places, 180* apart and directly across from each other in hopes to create 2 big flared mushroom halves.
In the pic to the top left is a standard HP, unmodified with an initiator tip installed...the other 5 have been scribed and expanded and have their initiator tips in place.
I used the hypodermic in the bottom of the picture...way easier than poking the caulking in with a toothpick, faster too.


180572
Below, loaded in the 6" barreled Smith the extra expansion with the white tips look peculiar, they get your focus on pretty quick.
These rounds were loaded with 4.0 grains of Bullseye, ran an avg. of 941 FPS with 6.6% variation at 63 FPS spread.


180573
Ok...here's the bottom line...I might have run these a 'leetle might too hot' as you can see that they pretty much fragmented into a basket load of pieces leaving the bases weighing from 87 to 110 grains. I was amazed at really how few the pieces are and how large they are...you might think that they would cause a great deal of trauma leaving the bases to further penetrate.



180574

I wasn't out to prove any specific thing today, just wanted to see what I'd get FPS wise using the longer barreled Smith, make a new scribe/expander punch and just gather some data for further mulling...

[Blackwater]

Can you imagine being the surgeon that had to patch one of those wounds up? Talk about being busy as a long-tailed cat in a room full of rocking chairs! Still, though, I always think about those big gorilla types, and what lack of penetration can do, or more precisely, let THEM do before they expire! Thanks for such a great job. I may actually be learning something, believe it or not! My tests were all done long ago now. Good to see more methodical and comprehensive tests than I ever had time to do back then. I'm watching what you're doing closely. And BTW, if you have a strong .38 or a .357, you might want to try that old 7.6 gr. Blue Dot load and see what it'll do. I haven't shot one in many years now, and didn't have a chrono back then, either. Had to just judge from the recoil what I was getting, compared to other loads. Far from ideal, but in absence of a chrono, the best I had to work with.

These kinds of tests can be very edifying! Especially with the good photos you post. Thanks!

[runfiverun]

well I don't think you need to scribe them any more :lol:

the good thing about shearing petals away is that there is less frontal area to prohibit penetration.
at some point I think you are gonna have to change test media and see just how deep they go.

[OS OK]

Next time I go to Auburn, 30 miles across the river, I'll look over at the print shop where they do handouts and small news/for sale type papers and see if I can get a bunch of the scrap.

Those pieces are prolly turning at about 15K RPM when they come off, in a body no telling how far they might travel inside, they aren't lightweight splatter...they are like little banana peels.

[Spector]

I place my 45's on my ceramic top stove and drop small pieces of hot glue into the hollow points and then set the element on the lowest heat setting. Booger glue.....hot glue, or a blend. Any air will escape as the glue gets hotter and starts to melt. Add tiny pieces of hot glue and when there is a nice neat uniform dome of hot glue on top just let the boolits cool. The dome will shrink some as the glue cools.

I find that easier that stuffing putty in there and I think the hot glue remains pretty stable and does not dry out.

They make colored hot glue sticks as well for you colorful boolit lovers.

Mike

[OS OK]

Spector...Doesn't hot glue get rather hard just like the stick it came in? Are you saying it will develop the hydraulic pressure to open the HP?
Got any pictures of your success with this?

[yondering]

Those pieces are prolly turning at about 15K RPM when they come off, in a body no telling how far they might travel inside, they aren't lightweight splatter...they are like little banana peels.

Fragmenting noses can be very effective if the base is heavy enough to penetrate through.

I think I posted some pics earlier of my 35 cal heavy subsonic bullet; the first deer I shot with that one left a golf ball size hole through the heart. The nose fragmented off in the chest cavity, and I picked a couple lead fragments out of the spine (think about how far those went away from the path of a broadside heart shot). About 200 gr of base penetrated through the far shoulder blade and was not recovered. That deer couldn't have been any deader if shot with a 30-06, but many hunters would consider weight retention of that subsonic bullet totally unacceptable, because they read about how important that is in a magazine.

[Blackwater]

OS OK, those sheared off petals DO make a difference. I remember talking to a pathologist once, and he commented about fragmentation, and how any of it could vary depending on how sharp the edges were, and what angles they hit larger blood vessels at. Surgeons have a really hard time, sometimes, dealing with GSW's. Lethality and stopping effect are not always the same, but if a bad guy ever gets me, I'd like to know that he didn't survive either. Kind'a my obligation to the community, I think.

Thanks again for a most interesting thread. Keep up the good work.

[runfiverun]

hot glue has been used very effectively to initiate expansion.
as long as the tip is level with or above the hollow it will push back into the cavity and get things moving.
it also stops the hollow from getting mucked up with other material which can force the outer edges inward stopping the expansion.

[OS OK]

These are the ones with only 2 scribes and the greatly expanded HP hole with the initiator tips...

I wonder what would happen if I slow these 7.4 BHN SWC-HP's down to around the 850 FPS range...so, did some math and figured that 3.8 grains of the Bullseye might do it...almost did as far as leaving the fragments intact...

Compare these to the group photo at the 941 FPS range above and we see that I have less fragmentation and as a result a larger size of remaining fragments. The remaining casts weigh from 81-144 grains, didn't weigh the frag's. Again this is the 6" bbl. Smith.

180643
This shows us at last, what these rounds look like before the fragments sling off the body of the cast. They are huge...they have sharp 'banana peel' edges. The half globe shape shows us the pressure curvature it develops in the water. Akin to the pressure against the cast in air.

180644180645180646

Some other angles...this is what I'd like to be able to do in that snubby but it's going to require that I get another 100 FPS out of that little bugger. Hmmmm?
Does anyone notice anything significant about this particular cast? A defect, maybe? How about the bubble at the base just under the sprue plate that collapsed into the body of the cast when under max. pressure? No biggie, I know but, this could have been avoided if I had taken the time to weigh the casts before selecting 5 of them for this test...I would have noticed that aprox. 3 grain void.

180647180648


Don't know what I'll do next...this is getting rather spontaneous but, the wet newsprint and the results of the gel test are yet to come...

[fiberoptik]

I'll take that bag [emoji161] as is for $9.95!!!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Blackwater]

Don't know where the void came from, but my guess is it was covered with a thin film of lead that, upon impact, opened up to reveal the void? Just a SWAG, but that's all I can say about it. I've seen it happen before, but it's been a long time ago now. It was just the only explanation I could come up with.

[popper]

Momentum drives the 'core' forward while the nose is collapsing.

[OS OK]

I think it was a bubble just under the sprue cut, have seen it before since I do so much testing and looking at them when recovered.
The only way to detect the little bubbles is to weight sort, the heavies will be within .1 to .6 or .7'ths and the goofs like this one will be 1 or more full grains light.
When I'm running on the hot side 750-785* F. and doing these HP's I don't see too many bubbles because I pressure pour with a little hesitation on the shut off to allow a little pile of a puddle as I drop the mold from the spigot, leaving Pb for the cast to draw from before cutting with the sprue. Sometimes I get a weelittle fast shutting the spigot off and don't leave enough puddle...it's my guess that it's my fault there and that's the cause. When the sprue cuts I think it swipes a thin covering to hide the hole. Sometimes there is a very tiny pinhole there to give them away.
There ain't a lot of room on a single cavity sprue plate to leave a lot of Pb...a butter bean size puddle will over-run the edges and cause a bit of a mess. Invariably some will drop onto the wooden pin knob and if I don't notice it I'll get a little burn on my finger...been there done that too many times and that's aggravating, so I try to get it right...good luck on that though.

It's just the right timing, like everything else.

[runfiverun]

ladle bud.
the lead in the ladle becomes your sprue puddle, and your still pressure pouring. :lol:

[OS OK]

You know, I may be assuming here but...doesn't a lead pot have more pressure...never used a ladle so you'll have to school me on this one.

[runfiverun]

you'll get head pressure from the bottom pour.
but the ladle acts like a 1/4lb sprue for the boolit to suck from.
then you just pour the remaining alloy over the sprue plate and back into the pot to keep it hot.
I turn the mold and the ladle sideways make contact then give a little twist and rotate them at the same time so the ladle ends up on top dumping all of it's alloy into the mold at once.

for bigger boolits [much over 400gr] it is the only way to go to get good fill out.
and for single cavity molds it is the most consistent way to cast.
it also doesn't have too much pressure and forces fins into the vent lines.

[OS OK]

* [Regarding Ladle pouring...I guess that it's a combination of 'volume@pressure@temperature' of the Pb and 'this-working together' considered at the point in which it matters most...on the underside of the sprue hole.
Or...r5r...I've been 'mulling' on this too long!]

***Something else though, same subject as within this thread and regarding BHN and ACCURACY and FPS and CHAMBER PRESSURE...and ECTERA...?

I ran across a link to an article published by a fella in 2010 who has tested and has empirical evidence that we are putting too much emphasis on BHN in handgun loads and believes that it is not actually applicable to the handguns because R. Lee developed his pressure tables working exclusively with rifles.
His conclusions do not surprise me because of what I've read by Elmer Keith on the subject...this is the opening paragraphs in the article that is linked below.

Pressure and Alloy Matching for Accuracy. Fact or Fiction in a handgun?


The engineering on this topic is fun to read about and for discussion. There are BHN charts, lead deformation charts, calculations to provide obturation pressure, accurate-pressure and a way to determine the maximum pressure for cast boolits. However taking it to the range and validating something like "matching pressure to BHN for accuracy" to me reveals the truth of this widely accepted and commonly promoted & quoted “claim”.

The reason I even bring it up is, there are plenty of articles and books about this that get read and then recited as fact. Many people are trying to figure out what’s wrong with their gun because of their bad results at the range. This concept is often promoted by pundits and then is passed along as fact in various online forums by folks that have assumed it's valid.


But is it?
http://357shooter.blogspot.com/2010/...and-alloy.html (http://357shooter.blogspot.com/2010/12/handgun-only-pressure-and-alloy.html) ...this is a short article and worth your considerations.

charlie

[runfiverun]

IMO R. Lee is quoting from a book about the pressure.
that 1422 number is a number engineers use to figure fatigue numbers on metals.
we are containing the metal we use in a stronger metal.

our only worries are not slumping back unsupported sections of the boolit, or getting everything into the hole and pushing it to speed without damaging it.

pressure timing and peak pressures are of course a concern but we have a broad spectrum of powder speeds to work with, and can move the peak pressure timing up and down the scale [think of a ruler scribed along the gun barrel]
since you are envisioning the scribed ruler.
think about gas volume and how far down that scale the gas volume expands to, and accelerates the projectile.
anyway that will let you see why sometimes things work and why they don't and why that number is meaningless.

[OS OK]

One of the things I took from that article was, his constantly emphasizing how when he went softer, he got better accuracy compared to the usual hardness people assume is necessary.
If you could get a lot of our casters to cast one of their favorite most accurate handgun recipes in substantially softer lead, I bet we'd see the same results as he was trying to point out.
I've been surprised many times over the years when I've found out commonly assumed things we think we know aren't actually based in fact.

[Blackwater]

You know, OS OK, one of the things your posts and experiments here have done for me, is it's reestablished my appreciation for the fact that those large broken off (jagged edged) nose pieces spinning off create more radial damage, and thus, are MUCH harder for a surgeon to deal with. They also cause increased speed of blood loss from multiple areas as they spin off radially and cause secondary damage. That's no small thing for a bullet to do, especially in a handgun. Our handguns are the least powerful and hardest to shoot guns we carry and use. And any enhancement comes as a cause for celebration and increased confidence and faith in our loads. Especially at .38 snubby velocity levels. You have me thinking about loads for my old DS, and hard, now. Thanks.

[runfiverun]

I'm enjoying this thread a lot.
there has been a ton of ideas discussed and a lot of room for thought on what is/can happen here.

[Treetop]

OS OK, thanks for the link to that .357 shooter blogspot. Some good reading there. Semper Fi, Treetop

[Strtspdlx]

I did read the article and I tend to agree with softer leads are usually more efficient at providing accuracy. To me this was purely based on accuracy as stated in the first couple of sentences. I'm curious how fast the test bullets where going and what lube was used. Alloy is the priority in deciding on a given load. But in these times finding soft pure lead is really hard. I have come across maybe 12lbs of it in the last 18months. So needles to say most of my bullets are straight coww. I'm saving that soft lead for something special.
Ill have to reread that article several more times as I'm sure I didn't absorb the information that was intended. But I think I understand what he was trying to say in that article.
Also keep up the good work. It's nice to see someone putting in the time to get desired results. That isn't very common anymore. It also gives me guidelines on how to attempt my own endeavors if I ever get a hollow point mold and try to make it work correctly.

One of the things I took from that article was, his constantly emphasizing how when he went softer, he got better accuracy compared to the usual hardness people assume is necessary.
If you could get a lot of our casters to cast one of their favorite most accurate handgun recipes in substantially softer lead, I bet we'd see the same results as he was trying to point out.
I've been surprised many times over the years when I've found out commonly assumed things we think we know aren't actually based in fact.

[Black Beard]

Interesting thread. Many years ago I did some penetration testing using air guns, DIY ballistic gelatine and soap. I know that they are a fraction of the power of a real gun but the velocities are 600-900fps so similar to a short revolver. What I found was that pellets with long, parallel hollow points (actually cup shaped bases but fired backwards) had the hollow section completely break up in to a cone of particles. The cone expanded about 10-40 degrees from the axis of the bullet from the initial impact point. Inside the cone there was no damage apart from a hole down the centre where the remainder of the pellet passed through. The cone was very short- maybe 3/4" in soap which would be an inch and a half in gelatine. But the amount of lead particles that caused it was tiny- about 4 grains in total. The rest of the pellet went on through but only to about half the depth of a standard round nosed pellet. This was interesting but completely useless unless you are shooting mice. What I think happened was that the pressure in the hollow blew the walls out sideways so they moved out as well as forwards. I expect that the 3 petals in OS OKs bullets are going to do something similar. They will expand outwards and penetrate to a similar depth as an air gun ( they are a bit heavier but less aerodynamic). They will completely kill a cone of flesh maybe 4" -6" deep and the remainder of the bullet will act as a short, light wadcutter. This is probably not as immediately lethal as a straight wadcutter that doesn't break up. But like Blackwater said, it is going to really upset a surgeon who has to cut out a whole lot of flesh to avoid infection.BB

[OS OK]

Thanks for your comments fellas.

I'm still waiting on elvis ammo (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCqq2Xh4H4VnMjZemwjTLW0w) to do the gel tests on the three wing HP's, I sent him a box of 50.
Only caveat here is that he just got a new mold for the .223" and he is 'sidetracked' for the moment.
Bullet Casting "Details" CUSTOM 223 MOLD (Arsenal Molds) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jM6lXdRiepk&t=1s)
Can't complain though as he offered to test them and that alone is going to take 1 full day in gel preparations alone. He has to clean and cook that stuff then pour it into a mold...basically recycle his 2 blocks every time he gel tests...I appreciate that.
BALLISTIC GEL FORMING. "COST" HOW TO. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SjLuBMCC9co)

While I'm waiting on those results I thought about testing some http://castboolits.gunloads.com/webkit-fake-url://44D0E029-1F10-4666-8150-5F8B3DCFD8F4/90692-01.jpg181526.358-158-RF's in pure lead...#5 BHN @ 950 FPS & PC'd. I have this profile in .45" also...they are accurate and cycle well in the 1911. The wide meplat hits hard.
I have an idea that they will round out and expand just like the std. HP but without loosing mass. BUT...it's been raining. I'll wait patiently as we desperately need the rain.

So many times I've dug j-type HP's out of a berm and been nonplused over their lack of expansion and thought to myself...'what a waste of money'. But if you get enough Horse Power behind them they will do the job correctly...only problem there is that with these snubnose's you can't always do that, especially in the pukey lil .38 Special. That was my thoughts when I got started but since, it has been quite a learning curve in ballistics and casting combined.
Stay tuned...this HP thread is going to continue in experimenting with all the little subtle aspects that the handloader doesn't really consider or is unaware of.

Thanks for your comments, contributions and interest...that's one of the things I hold dearly about this forum...some of you out there actually test things, provide empirical evidence and like me...'wonder why?'

charlie

[Blackwater]

Thank YOU for a really great thread, and for sharing your findings with us all. If I live to be 100, I'll still have "I wonder what would happens" by the score within me! Experiments like this, with your great reports, help a lot of us think, and learn, and maybe even might make the difference in whether someone lives or dies one day. That ain't no small thing! With snubby .38's really being "energy challenged," ensuring we have one of, if not THE most effective load we can carry, can really make a difference one day. Thanks!

[35remington]

The most a wide meplat near pure lead bullet will do at 950 fps sans any hollowpoint is widen the meplat slightly at best. No sane snubby load will reach near that speed.

A fella oughta try a cup point bullet in the hopes of creating more tissue drag than a WC while still having more penetration than a lead 158 HP. That bullet often just barely squeaks by the FBI minimum if it expands much. Which is why we don't want it to expand that much. At least I don't, as my personal preference is more penetration.

If I wanted FBI load performance I'd just buy it. My carry 638 is Plus P rated.

Incidentally, the FBI load often does not get classic mushroom expansion out of snubbies yet it has a good rep anyway. Often the recovered bullet resembles nothing so much as a cup pointed wadcutter, which sounds like a hint to me.

[runfiverun]

if you want smaller secondary wounding you can take a page from the old powerball rounds and fill the hollow nose with birdshot then cover it over.
this gives a protected point, insures opening, and flings the pellets out to the side.
it also inhibits penetration.

[OS OK]

For the snubby I'm sticking with the deep pin SWC HP in 5 BHN and PC'd, the weight there is 155 grains and I can get more speed with them than filling the nose and getting up to 170 grains.

On the RNFP's I just wanted to see how much I can get them to expand with the 6" barreled Smith, so I can talk 950 FPS there easy.

[OS OK]

Test revolver is the .357 Taurus Snubby today...these rounds are .38 Special. Ideal mold again with the deep pin w/ 2 scribe punch.

Notice above that the BHN is up to 6.2 . (I added .5 oz of Sn. to 6 lbs. of 5 BHN pure Pb.)
I tested about an hour after PC'ing the casts, I expect it'll go up in the next few days...prolly to around 8, we'll see later this week.
What matters is that the following results were done with a mix that measures 6.2 BHN with the Sn added for a little strength.
*Remember how these 2 wingers did so poorly before...the wings tore off of all but one.


181705
Well...it's a different story today. 2 of them on the left hit the edge of the test pipe.

181706
Only one of the 2 were really inhibited...the second from the left still opened only it wasn't able to open fully.

181707
What is most important is that none of these casts lost any weight...the Sn did this for me.

181708
Of all the HP's I've tested so far, these seem to fulfill all the initial requirements I laid out in post no.1.
I've been watching lots of Y-Tube tests using 'wet pack' and have a pretty good idea how to do that part now. That'll be in a forthcoming test prolly next week.

181709
I still want to see if this mix will keep the 3 Wingers intact...for some reason I like the look of those because they open wider than these do.
I dunnoh...if I had to quit right here I think I'd be satisfied...these are huge mushrooms and I think they will deliver 100% of the energy without passing through. I suppose the wet pack will tell a different story all together.

Stay tuned, no telling what's next!

[35remington]

FWIW, the widely expanded bullets you show will not make FBI minimums. You may not care but I thought I would say it anyway.

Energy and velocity is rather low, but mainly it's because expansion is too wide. Way too wide. A more moderately expanding bullet at this velocity level is thought by credentialed folks as being more desirable.

[OS OK]

I want a round that I think will not pass through a perp and then possibly a wall or two and endanger a family member.

I want a round that does maximum interior damage and dumps all energy inside.

These are house defensive loads, they don't go out in public but they would be desirable there too...for my way of reasoning.

charlie

[35remington]

Rounds that penetrate more than what you are crafting do not over penetrate human beings when actual results are tabulated. The FBI tests were set up to exclude over penetrating rounds and the 12 to 18 inch spec in gel was set up to address overpenetration. You're low balling it a bit too much and giving something away you should not. Being below the 12 inch minimum is not considered a good thing.

Like it or not your ammo likely will plug up in drywall and penetrate like a solid in the event of a miss. You should rethink the "max expansion at all costs" angle when low energy and velocity is involved as you may be under served by penetration even in the event of a hit. Given the first job of a bullet is to make a hole no matter what, I think the idea of a shallowly penetrating bullet is an idea whose time has passed.

Given the marginal energy and velocity of a 38 snub in many loads, it seems to me you're avidly pursuing a concept that is throughly discredited. Yes, that's my opinion, but most credentialed authorities share it. Again, FWIW.

[runfiverun]

I know the penetration will be inhibited also.
and it isn't my MO either.
but this is what Charlie wants for his situation.
the wet pack and Gel tests will maybe show something else and point to another direction.

[35remington]

The drift of the thread seems to be heading toward "more, More, MORE" expansion!!!!"

What needs to be recognized is we have tilted towards imbalance when penetration is concerned, which is not a good thing. There should be a balance. What should be also recognized is that reasonable penetration is more significant as a "must have" than expansion.

Considerable research and informed opinion suggests 38 bullets fired out of snubbies should only expand modestly if they are to strike this reasonable balance. Classic wide mushroom expansion coupled with a short bullet shank is actually very much to be avoided.

Just a gentle suggestion that Charlie may want to revise his "wants" for something else. Widely expanded, low velocity 38 bullets are very penetration challenged. Given no one knows his shot angles and obstructing limbs beforehand, bias in load selection of this sort should be toward reasonable penetration, not eye appealing double diameter expansion.

Further testing will no doubt be interesting, but valuing expansion alone is putting the secondary criteria first.

[35remington]

One other thing about "home defense" loads (the suggested point of this thread in terms of chasing silver dollar size expansion) is no one seems to think they'll ever miss. Great concern is heaped upon bullets that have been slowed significantly by passage through humans.....as if the standard penetration depths suggested by the FBI are "too much" (which they are not). Let me assure you that unless you're using a nonexpanding fairly heavy bullet in a 38 snub, a bullet that passes through an assailant, his clothing, then through a couple of walls to do fatal damage to another human just ain't gonna happen. Quite frankly I even have some doubt about that nonexpanding bullet.

Admittedly I am kinda odd, but we used to do a fair amount of shooting up of old farmhouses to see what shot through what......not hard in my neck of the woods especially if you explain to your amused farmer friends what you are doing and you happen to work in an NRCS office. Low velocity handgun bullets that hit something substantial before hitting the drywall are pretty penetration challenged. Solid or solid acting bullets that hit nothing else first can go through a fair amount of house if there are no studs or metal in the way. I am more worried about the latter, but having some clue of what lies in the way of a miss is probably more valuable than anything else you could do or any preventative action you could take. Actually you could more fairly say I am more worried about my shooting discipline that the bullet used in the somewhat fantasy type scenario. How often have you heard of an overpenetrating bullet passing through someone and killing someone else in the house?

Anyone? Me either.

Years ago the army spent considerable time in determining that about 400 fps impact velocity is needed to produce a fatal wound. The elastic stretch of skin and clothing on the exit side of the body has a not surprising ability to arrest fairly high remaining velocities of bullets that have expanded to any degree or have tumbled. Exit velocities of pistol bullets conforming to this description are quite low. Many police shootings find that the loads recommended as conforming to the "FBI standard" are contained within the body or at most are captured on the exit side by clothing.

Let me offer a suggestion. Go to youtube and look up tnoutdoor's gelatin test of the Buffalo Bore 158LSWCHP. The bullet really did not open up much if at all, essentially being a cup pointed wadcutter. It penetrated 19 inches, a mere inch more than the FBI standard. It is doubtful that this bullet has sufficient remaining velocity to exit a human then both penetrate sheet rock and inflict a wound of any significance. This will give a clue that very little expansion is required to notably attenuate penetration in a 38 snubby.

What would be ideal is about 40 caliber expansion (relatively little petal protrusion) and maximum shank. FBI standards would be well met but not exceeded. Penetration in terms of too much or too little would not be a problem.

[OS OK]

It's been years since I watched a program on how the FBI test the rounds so I found this, hopefully it will reflect what your trying to hammer into my head.

***The BLUE highlights are some considerations I feel are important in the application I'm working.

*** GREEN below was my opening statement in post no. 1 of this lengthy thread.

Some of you fellas already know that I've been working on a .38 Special load that could be an 'in house defense load' that would most likely stay in the perp and not exit and pass through a wall and injure someone else. I wanted that load for my wife's .38 Taurus 1 7/8'ths snubby.

***The RED highlighted below are further tests the FBI does that don't apply in my in house shooting scenario. I believe that to conform to those I would be trying to develope a cast that is considered adequate for a basic combat application...or in the least a street fight. I don't intend to shoot through car doors or windshields or plywood or combinations thereof...I simply set out to find a cast SWC-HP that would perform in my set of criteria...that's all.

Don't you think that trying to get me to adhere to the FBI standards is a little over the top?

http://greent.com/40Page/general/fbitest.htm <<< THIS IS THE SOURCE LINK for the information below...



FBI Ballistic Test Protocol:

Briefly, the performance standards are simple. A handgun bullet must consistently penetrate a minimum of 12 inches of tissue in order to reliably penetrate vital organs within the human target regardless of the angle of impact or intervening obstacles such as arms, clothing, glass, etc. Penetration of 18 inches is even better. Given minimum penetration, the only means of increasing wound effectiveness is to make the hole bigger. This increases the amount of vital tissue damaged, increases the chance of damaging vital tissue with a marginally placed shot, and increases the potential for quicker blood loss. This is important because, with the single exception of damaging the central nervous system, the only way to force incapacitation upon an unwilling adversary is to cause enough blood loss to starve the brain of its oxygen and/or drop blood pressure to zero. This takes time, and the faster hemorrhage can occur the better.

The FBI Ammunition Test Protocol is a series of practically oriented tests to measure a bullet's ability to meet these performance standards. The result is an assessment of a bullet's ability to inflict effective wounds after defeating various intervening obstacles commonly present in law enforcement shootings. The overall results of a test are thus indicative of that specific cartridge's suitability for the wide range of conditions in which law enforcement officers engage in shootings.

The test media used by the FBI to simulate living tissue is 10% Ballistic Gelatin (Kind & Knox 250-A), mixed by weight (i.e., one pound of gelatin to 9 pounds of water). The gelatin is stored at 4° Centigrade (39.2° Fahrenheit) and shot within 20 minutes of being removed from the refrigerator. The temperature of the gelatin is critical, because penetration changes significantly with temperature. This specific gelatin mix was determined and calibrated by the U.S. Army Wound Ballistics Research Laboratory, Presidio of San Francisco, to produce the same penetration results as that obtained in actual living tissue. The 10 % gelatin has been correlated against the actual results of over 200 shooting incidents. Each gelatin block is calibrated before use to insure its composition is within defined parameters. Copies of the test protocol are available upon request for those interested in duplication the testing or reviewing the procedures in greater detail.
The gelatin blocks for handgun rounds are approximately six inches square and 16 inches long. As necessary, additional blocks are lined up in contact with each other to insure containment of the bullet's total penetration. Each shot's penetration is measured to the nearest 0.25 inch. The projectile is recovered, weighed, and measured for expansion by averaging its greatest diameter with its smallest diameter.

The Ammunition Test Protocol using this gelatin is composed of eight test events. In each test event, five shots are fired. A new gelatin block and new test materials are used for each individual shot. The complete test consists of firing 40 shots. Each test event is discussed below in order. All firing in these eight tests events is done with a typical service weapon representative of those used by law enforcement. The weapon used is fully described in each test report.


Test Event 1: Bare Gelatin
The gelatin block is bare, and shot at a range of ten feet measured from the muzzle to the front of the block. This test event correlates FBI results with those being obtained by other researchers, few of whom shoot into anything other than bare gelatin. It is common to obtain the greatest expansion in this test. Rounds which do not meet the standards against bare gelatin tend to be unreliable in the more practical test events that follow.


Test Event 2: Heavy Clothing
The gelatin block is covered with four layers of clothing: one layer of cotton T-shirt material (48 threads per inch); one layer of cotton shirt material (80 threads per inch); a 10 ounce down comforter in a cambric shell cover (232 threads per inch); and one layer of 13 ounce cotton denim (50 threads per inch). This simulates typical cold weather wear. The block is shot at ten feet, measured from the muzzle to the front of the block.


Test Event 3: Steel
Two pieces of 20 gauge, hot rolled steel with a galvanized finish are set three inches apart. The steel is in six inch squares. The gelatin block is covered with Light Clothing and placed 18 inches behind the rear most piece of steel. The shot is made at a distance of 10 feet measured from the muzzle to the front of the first piece of steel. Light Clothing is one layer of the above described T-shirt material and one layer of the above described cotton shirt material, and is used as indicated in all subsequent test events.

The steel used is the heaviest gauge steel commonly found in automobile doors. This test simulates the weakest part of a car door. In all car doors, there is an area, or areas, where the heaviest obstacle is nothing more that two pieces of 20 gauge steel.


Test Event 4: Wallboard
Two pieces of half-inch standard gypsum board are set 3.5 inches apart. The pieces are six inches square. The gelatin block is covered with Light Clothing and and placed 18 inches behind the rear most piece of gypsum. The shot is made at a distance of ten feet, measured from the muzzle to the front of the first piece of gypsum. This test event simulates a typical interior building wall.


Test Event 5: Plywood
One piece of three-quarter inch AA fir plywood is used. The piece is six inches square. The gelatin block is covered with Light Clothing and placed 18 inches behind the rear surface of the plywood. The shot is made at a distance of ten feet, measured from the muzzle to the front surface of the plywood. This test event simulates the resistance of typical wooden doors or construction timbers.


Test Event 6: Automobile Glass
One piece of A.S.I. one-quarter inch laminated automobile safety glass measuring 15x18 inches is set at an angle of 45° to the horizontal. The line of bore of the weapon is offset 15° to the side, resulting in a compound angle of impact for the bullet upon the glass. The gelatin block is covered with Light Clothing and placed 18 inches behind the glass. The shot is made at a distance of ten feet, measured from the muzzle to the center of the glass pane. This test event with its two angles simulates a shot taken at the driver of a car from the left front quarter of the vehicle, and not directly in front of it.


Test Event 7: Heavy Clothing at 20 yards
This event repeats Test Event 2 but at a range of 20 yards, measured from the muzzle to the front of the gelatin. This test event assesses the effects of increased range and consequently decreased velocity.


Test Event 8: Automobile Glass at 20 yards
This event repeats Test Event 6 but at a range of 20 yards, measured from the muzzle to the front of the glass, and without the 15° offset. The shot is made from straight in front of the glass, simulating a shot at the driver of a car bearing down on the shooter.


In addition to the above described series of test events, each cartridge is tested for velocity and accuracy. Twenty rounds are fired through a test barrel and twenty rounds are fired through the service weapon used in the penetration tests. All velocities are measured and reported.

Two ten-shot groups are fired from the test barrel, and two from the service weapon used, at 25 yards. They are measured from center to center of the two most widely spaced holes, averaged and reported.

Test barrel results demonstrate a round's potential independent of any weapon factors which can affect performance. Test barrel results are the purest measure of inherent capability for accuracy and velocity. Repeating these tests with a service weapon shows how well the cartridge/weapon combination may realize that potential.



Now...unless I'm forgetting something, overlooking something, misinterpreting something...I honestly think that I have met my criteria in this last test at 6.2 BHN. As I said earlier in another post...I have been looking into an efficient way to conduct the 'wet paper' testing without a big to-do. A way to repeat it over and over with various rounds and not end up with 1/2 ton of wet newsprint to haul off...I'll get to that part later when I've decided.
So...as to this FBI certifying it's rounds...could we agree that their methodology does not apply here?

Please don't get me wrong, I appreciate all comments and try to use some, actually I consider all of them until I figure they don't apply and then I move along.
This testing takes a lot of time and effort as I'm sure you already realize and in the end of it all, if you have followed it page by page and comment by comment, test by test...I think that I have results here that we can all take something from...whether it is 'what not to do' or 'what to do'...all the little subtle changes just might match something someone else has tried and found failure and have stopped before achieving success in their individual projects.
Could be people have given up on projects due to the lack of anothers empiricle evidence...in the end here, this has been like a science lab experiment showing all the results.

I thought and still think that this has been a worthy pursuit.

charlie

[OS OK]

http://www.hornady.com/assets/images/crti-def-crit-duty/9mm-Luger_crit_def-012-package-modfd.png
Critical DEFENSE® = Backup
Weapons/Off-Duty CarryCritical DEFENSE® handgun ammunition is ideal for backup weapons, off-duty carry or for those serving in executive protection, undercover operations, or any dedicated close quarters situations.

http://www.hornady.com/assets/images/crti-def-crit-duty/FTX-Critical-Defense-cutaway-wlogo.pngCritical DEFENSE® provides controlled expansion while reducing the potential of over penetration. The patented FTX® bullet and associated Flex Tip® technology used in Critical DEFENSE® ammunition eliminates the clogging and inconsistent expansion and penetration that often plagues hollow point bullets.

All Critical DEFENSE® ammunition is loaded in nickel-plated cases for improved feeding and increased visibility in low-light situations. Critical DEFENSE® is unaffected by thick, heavy clothing (including denim and leather) and delivers superior controlled expansion with deep wound cavities over a wide range of velocities. Premium low*flash propellants have been specifically tailored for short-barreled handguns to deliver proven performance.

*As defined by the "FBI Protocol" handgun ammunition tests.




I haven't been ordering J-type projectiles in so many years I was not aware of this aspect of Hornadys efforts...it seems as if my concept of 'limited penetration' is not as archaic as you claim.
So far, I haven't found anything on the standards here either...*As defined by the "FBI Protocol" handgun ammunition tests.

charlie







It appears that you either want to penetrate and have 'controlled expansion with controlled penetration' as stated in the above advertisement or...You want to defeat various barriers first and then have 'controlled expansion with controlled penetration'.
I guess that there now is two different standards out there...the first of which a cast can be designed to do without a Jacket...then there is this second scenario where they want to defeat barriers first...in this case I cannot see where a cast Hollow Point would even be considered.....Perhaps if I were to try to develop a cast for this second scenario I'd start out working on a heavy RNFP. ***Pictures of the Critical Duty didn't copy/paste but below is their write-up on this ammo.

Critical DUTY® = Tactical
Critical DUTY® handgun ammunition is built to meet the needs and requirements of LAW ENFORCEMENT and TACTICAL PROFESSIONALS, as well as those law abiding citizens who prefer a full-size handgun for their personal protection and demand superior barrier penetration and subsequent terminal performance.*
The FlexLock® bullets loaded in all Critical DUTY® o erings are rugged, heavy jacketed bullets that deliver “barrier blind” performance (i.e. total penetration, weight retention and expansion are practically the same) when shot through common urban barriers* (bare gelatin, auto glass, sheet metal, plywood, drywall, heavy clothing*). In addition, Critical DUTY® loads are “full power loads” designed to function in full-size handguns. Designed to work awlessly in ALL handguns, these loads are not optimized for
short barreled, concealed carry style handguns; they will deliver standard recoil during ring. *As de ned by the “FBI Protocol” handgun ammunition tests.
U.S. Patent No. 8,413,587
U.S. Patent No. 8,413,587
Critical DUTY® ammo features waterproof sealant around the primer.
Critical DUTY® ammo features an “H” on the tip. Critical DUTY® ammo is packaged in 50-count boxes for Law Enforcement.

[35remington]

Quick notation of your comments:

Your bullets do not make "minimum penetration" so that is not a given as required in your quoted text and expansion is a handicap in attaining that most necessary base criteria.

Yes, it makes sense for you to conform to the FBI standards. Why? Because you're flying blind without them and tossing out free research conducted for years about the issue. Further, in your scenario the "overpenetrating" bullet strikes a human first. Velocity is slowed significantly. This does not mimic anything the FBI does, so how is your information comparable?

Attenuation of bullet velocity is considerably greater passing through a human than a piece of sheet rock or thin sheet metal. Peruse Vincent DeMaio for the velocity loss occasioned low velocity bullets in passing through a human. A low velocity bullet has little to spare.

Given that exiting low velocity bullets (and exit velocity will indeed be low given the velocities produced) are horrible barrier penetrators, and given the bassackaward comparison, there is little to contrast here.

Remind yourself that the FBI standard was also intended to address overpenetration as well as underpenetration. Given that you are ardently striving to produce a bullet that will underpenetrate on an unobstructed shot, and the standard is to frown on such a thing, how is confidence obtained pursuing this angle? A bullet that shoots through a barrier to penetrate the perp may not be as relevant here, but given you're chasing a bullet that underperforms in a best case scenario with zero obstructions in the way, you might want to de emphasize pancake shaped bullets.

[35remington]

Here it is in a nutshell:

if your bullet hits the bad guy first, penetration subsequent to this is extremely poor and very very unlikely as a concern when building materials are involved. If it misses the bad guy overpenetration through building materials is very much a problem. No matter what bullet you use.

Far more of your concern should be directed toward full velocity missing bullets than low velocity exiting ones. Way, way more. There is absolutely no comparison between the two in terms of barrier penetration.

[Spector]

I suspect this thread will do well if we state what we use in our weapons, and any special criteria for why. Pictures are good along with descriptions and the capture medium.

These disagreements are old.....like Ford versus Chevy......Martin Fackler versus Evan Marshall & Gary Sanow.

I would encourage those participating here to demonstrate what you believe to be true, but to resist the temptation to try to show the dangers in following what another poster says is their way.

This, so far. has been a very good thread overall and I would hate to see it devolve into personalities. So even if you believe you are doing those who you believe are less experienced a favor by refuting another's views, please resist that temptation.

Participating partners contributing in an ongoing experiment rather than competitors out to prove others wrong in order to make themselves right.

Mike

[OS OK]

OKAY...I Yahoo'd Vincent DeMaio...got a total of 66,000 hits. What I wanted to reference is evidently in book form only, and for my purchase. Where's a link I can follow on what your specifically talking about?

It looks to me like you have completely discounted my efforts here to work up this HP because it doesn't comply with FBI Standards. The FBI is your benchmark and you will not consider any thing short of that...I understand that thinking.

I just pointed out to you that their standards have included in them...'penetrating a barrier' first!
If they do that, then they will do that after they exit a person, either way...they have 'X' amount of foot pounds of energy combined with their weight and velocity...what the heck am I missing here?
As I said before...Why would I want to use a cast HP to break through barriers and then expect it to have any chance of expanding? Why not just load a 'hardcast blunt', load it to '+P+' and use it for a battering ram?
If I wanted that why not just buy some pre-made rounds that tout "FBI, FBI, FBI", ours will blow through all their stuff and cook your goose too!

I am not considering this aspect as I said before, I am not interested in law enforcements powerful rounds for street combat scenarios, period!
I haven't even gotten to the 'wet media' testing for any proof of penetration and already I'm sorry I even started this thread.

Perhaps a well meaning and generous Moderator will come along soon and just delete the whole dang thing and save us all from this mishap. I know it would save me a lot of time, energy and effort in trying to do this thing, test, photograph and share what I'm learning...yeah, I think I'm sorry for wasting everyones time here.

In the future I'll just do my own thing, keep it to myself and go merrily along in a foggy bliss! Obviously this forum is not designed for sharing anything contrary to the FBI's standards.

charlie

[Spector]

Your thread....your choice, but I hope you reconsider, knowing that a lot of us are enjoying reading about your experimentation.

I can filter out the personalities who become irritants. Hope you can too.

Mike

[Blackwater]

Keep going, OS OK! This is a great thread, and a worthy goal. I have settled on a fairly hard cast SWC for my own use, but I can't NOT be interested in your experiments. It pays to broaden one's horizons, and listen to countering views. Here in my own home, I don't really have to worry about penetrating walls, etc., because there's only my wife and I here. That makes considerations a lot easier in .38 2" loads, at least for me. I really like this thread, and check it every day for what's been posted. Sometimes we experiment just to prove "it can't be done," and sometimes, we surprise ourselves with the result.

The snubby .38 load presents us with some highly countering requirements. We need velocity to get penetration with good expansion, and that's just not available in a snubby .38. So .... experiments in what CAN be achieved are DEFINITELY worth while. I'm trying to "go to school" on your experiments as much as I can. Keep up the good work. I think lots of us are interested in what you're doing.

[Strtspdlx]

i agree with the fact you should keep on, don't let the opinions of anyone deter your efforts and cripple you. not sharing the information you have so far would be a waste to the general population here on cast boolits. I have been following this thread with great enthusiasm.
you have your standards and your goals and if you feel your testing and methods are able to achieve them, then why stop. if you doubt anything then it may be time to rethink some things, but I wouldn't just give up and let this all go to waste now.

[runfiverun]

I don't think the opposing view detracts from the thread in any way.
think about what he just did.
he got Charlie to do more research into his tests.

it also re-inforces the fact that there are no free lunches in the ballistics game.
you either concentrate on one thing or the other.
it's almost impossible to have two things happen at the same time unless you inhibit one or the other of those 2 things.
this doesn't just happen with cast it happens with jacketed too.
I have been trying to learn how to tune a bullets terminal affects by changing the velocity at impact. [and by changing some things about the bullet too]
if I keep the impact on soft tissue and slow things down I get very good results.
now change the angle or involve a bone and instantly my results are impacted.
the slower velocity is still too much and I get too much surface wounding and a shallow wound channel.
the one thing that helps is in trying to keep the velocity [moderate] but upping the weight of the projectile.

[Kosh75287]

If this has already been suggested, then please forgive the repetition, but has the subject of inverted 148gr. HBWCs been discussed? I would expect that a moderate charge of Unique would launch them somewhat over 800 f/s, which isn't trivial. Expansion is all but guaranteed, since the "front" of the projectile is flat edged and quite open. Accuracy may not be match-grade, but almost certainly is better than minute-of-intruder, especially within a dwelling.

[35remington]

No! Keep going! Info always is good. Just suggesting that you cannot use differing methodologies and figure penetration is the same. Human then barrier is vastly different than barrier then human.

I am just pointing out that a low velocity bullet exiting a human is a poor barrier penetrator. Because it is.

Putting a flimsy barrier in front of gelatin like the FBI does has zero to do with what you are supposing where the bullet hits a human and has the velocity slowed greatly.....before it hits the barrier. The bullet in the FBI test has high remaining velocity when it hits the gelatin (human simulant). Your bullet has quite low velocity after it exits a human when it hits any subsequent wall or house fixture that might be shielding someone you care about. The FBI simulated test has far more potential bullet energy and penetration when it hits the human analogue. Because the first thing the bullet hits is pretty flimsy.

FBI test: flimsy barrier, human simulant. Your test: human simulant, barrier, human simulant. If you want to test for such a thing, set it up that way. The one thing poorly modeled by tissue simulants is skin. Simulants are often penetrated by velocities that would bounce off humans....e.g, slingshot like velocities.

And also, quite frankly, the harm your loved ones face from a low energy low velocity bullet exiting a perp in your house in very low, especially if there s a wall between you and them. Missing your target makes all the "overpenetration through my intended target is bad" concerns as moot as it really is. Full energy bullets are the real problem.

I do not in the least figure on dissuading you from a search to get what you want. Just giving you info that hopefully aids in makng the correct choice.

The most important info I have to convey is that with the velocities discussed here the concern over a bullet exiting a bad guy and then passing through your house and then deeply penetrating someone else in a harmful way is really overblown. Low velocity exiting bullets have rotten penetration potential on someone behind a wall. Actually they have poor penetration on the wall itself. Unimpeded bullets that have hit nothing and are carrying their full velocity are a far bigger worry.

Shoot straight! Know where loved ones might be.

The book by DeMaio is called Gunshot Wounds. Warning: quite gruesome. Heads blown off, gutter wounds of the face, shotgun blasts, etc. The most pertinent part is the velocity loss of handgun bullets as they traverse the human body.

[NavyVet1959]

Maybe try some tests with ballistic gel (or a substitute) set up in front of a chrony? That way, you could see what velocity the bullet was traveling after it went through the "body" and you might be able to decided from that whether it should be a concern. I would suggest also doing it with a regular round nose copper jacketed round for a baseline comparison. My personal experience is that even a copper jacketed RN out of a snub nose .38 will not necessarily go through some parts of the body even if no bones are hit. And the person might not even know he was shot. In the end, shot placement is what is important.

[paul h]

An interesting thread and thanks for sharing all of the experimental results!

I'm of the school that thinks with marginally powerful rounds you can either have penetration or expansion, but not both. I'd rather patch drywall than be unable to penetrate the vitals of a thug, but that's just me. Put a heavy winter coat on a 300# guy and I would not trust a 38 sp with hp's to penetrate the vitals.

[JakeBlanton]

As an RVer, I'm pretty sure that any round I fire would go through the walls of my RV in addition to the walls of the next couple of RVs near me. I hope it never comes to that though since I don't want to have to start gluing and riveting patches to my RV. :)

[OS OK]

My friend...'ELVIS AMMO' @ ... elvis ammo (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCqq2Xh4H4VnMjZemwjTLW0w) ...did the gel test and just this morning posted his gel test video on his You-Tube channel...

Hollow Point (CONTROLLED EXPANSION) Initiator Rounds ===) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HjhO_vsspkw)

Now, we can see a lot more empirical evidence and get this thread back up and running and also argue about some different aspect of a different test...<(just kidding...just trying to keep a good attitude for whatever may result out of this).

OK...so go see this video, leave Elvis a kind word or two in the comments section for the work he now has invested into this crazy scheme of 'limited penetration self defense rounds'.<...Is that a valid name for them or even a valid concept?

Well...?

[NavyVet1959]

I think you need to do a baseline comparison with a bullet of the same weight, but with a full wadcutter profile.

[OS OK]

Are you suggesting finding out how much more penetration I would get at that pitiful speed without those 3 wings?

[Spector]

I think I still like a booger glue and hot glue stick mix. Takes very little booger glue to substantially soften the hot glue stick glue for a custom blend for different velocities. It doesn't shrink as Elvis observed the caulk did and I do not believe would be as prone to melt like bees wax filled ammo in a hot glove box. The hot glue sticks even come in colors if you are into that kind of thing like a lot of powder coaters are.

I have been firing mine into new stacks of phone books because I know how hard they are on hollow points causing them to plug up and not open. That is what convinced me an initiator substance in the hollow point is a good concept.

I put my boolits on heat source, hollow point facing up, and just drop small pieces of glue into it. Any tiny air bubbles seem to come to the top and burst leaving a very nice looking initiator mix form fitted and bonded to hollow point in the boolit.

I tried using a soft booger glue mix in the bottom and then a more firm glue stick on top, but they seemed to mix rather than staying segregated.

The harder glue sticks I believe will feed fine in semi-autos even with contact on the feed ramp. Booger glue i am not so sure about.

I was using a wide deep hollow point cavity in a 0.32'' meplate, powder coated 95% lead to 3% tin boolit with an aluminum PB gas check over HS6 in my 45 ACP, XDS, 3.3 inch. I have chronographed at over 900 fps using HS6, but want to keep my rounds right at 850 fps.

I had Tom at Accurate make me a RFP with no lube grooves that drops at about 235 grains. I reduced the weight to 206 grains by hollow pointing. I chucked and spun the PC-ed boolit instead of the center drill to get a better centered hollow point. Then I sized again. I am going to shoot for a 215 to 220 grain boolit with my next drilled hollow points. I have been trimming my glue with a razor blade flush with the meplate though in a revolver it would not matter unless you seat your boolit way out there.

I have always found glue adhered to the fired boolits after recovery.

That's where my thoughts are on this effort. So for anyone interested in the initiator concept you might want to experiment with hot glues. I suspect you could even make a mold specific to casting the initiator tips like the hot glue indoor pistol boolits people make. Drop one into each of the hollow points and turn on the heat source under the boolits and they should melt, settle right in and bond making a relatively speedy process if you use a tri-tip hollow point mold to cast with. Seems as though a 3 sided hollow point yields stronger petals.

Mike

[wonderwolf]

Wow, lots of good reading here...Had a bit of trouble understanding the direction at some points but I think I get the idea of things.

I also have done a bit of 38/357 load tests and have shot several ground hogs with the 125gr bullets I cast, no exit holes with the pistols (can't remember what happens when I shoot them with the carbine) and drops them dead. I shove the same bullet @ over 2000FPS and it stays together out of my 77/357 carbine, but that load would still dump a lot of energy in a hurry if you see how much it expands in the link below.

http://wonderwolfs.blogspot.com/2015/07/more-38-special-357-magnum-wet-pack.html

I've tested out of 2",4",5",6",10" and 18" barrels and recorded mostly velocity and general bullet performance along with some terminal notes. Good luck trying to find "the load" I agree with another posters comment about the cavity really does make the difference in performance. I fear however that murphy will take over and if you ever are forced to shoot you'll encounter Mr. Murphy and the perps brass jacket button and throw everything off. Coroner would be amazed to find his jacket button next to his spine though I'm sure :)

If I were aiming for a "fragmenting" man stopper that would insure safety of possible by-standards. I would want to lean towards a lathe turned teflon bullet, I've made them in the past and have been very surprised by their performance. Velocity out of my .500 S&W I think was well above 2500 FPS but they transfer all their energy VERY fast. Shot filled swagged bullets would be next

I would next consider the layout of the house and make sure I had lighting and mirrors in "advantageous" positions as clearing a house can be nerve wracking you might as well place some aids to help see around corners and walls, decorative mirrors give a fantastic advantage. Being more realistic I don't carry overly specialized rounds in my HD gun, I carry HP's like most of us do.

Keep up the good work, I plan to take up some more testing of bullets when we thaw out, I found a source for Hornady Critical defense/FTX bullets as a component only (the flat nose ones in their critical loads not the pointy ones)....I plan to see how they work at super fast speeds as well as lower velocites (think .38 Short colt and .357 maximum)

[OS OK]

Spector... It is starting to look like we need to consider those 'initiator tips' and their construction materials...I like the idea of casting/molding those tips out of a non shrinkable media and pressing them into the HP's with a little heat from perhaps a 'heat gun', we all have those. Man, this HP thread is getting pretty deep, huh? Can't say that I don't love it though. My 'Big-Stretch' caulking is too shrinkable, so it's out now!
Hollow Points are a unique boolit in this cast world we are in...each one is/has-to-be designed specifically for the intended purpose and the intended weapon...otherwise we kid ourselves as to their working ability, they become just another lead slug of a different design at varying velocities.

wonderwolf...500 S&W-??? Don't you think the concussion alone would dismember even a 'bigfoot' perpetrator! :bigsmyl2:
What you are doing takes this HP technology into the highest level and realm of foot pounds energy delivered and velocity, not to mention the carbine and the .357 Magnum.
Here is where we are going to learn how important the design of the HP, Pb blend and velocity all have to work in conjunction to the intended application. I'd be hard pressed to figure out what HP design and Pb/Linotype would actually work there...it would prolly get to the diameter of a 70MM cannon and still penetrate about 6 perps in a row and exit in a hole the size of a dinner plate!

Thanks for your interest and please don't hesitate to post your pictures and related facts/Pb blends/velocities/etc. in this thread as no matter what the weapon, what the detail is...I for one learn something from every comment...thanks.

At the moment I'm trying to determine just what I'm going to create for the wife's 'in-house' self defense load in her .38 snubby...I think I'm about 70% there except for the 'initiator point' development...we'll see as the observations, comments and suggestions come in later.

I do like the strategy of considering all the elements of a self defense shooting in the home in the dark of night and using all the advantages we can muster...to this point all I have considered is the actual hallways and angles, furniture and the like...we sure don't want to give the perp any advantage at all.

GEL TEST ARE DONE NOW, SEE THE VIDEO...POST 219 HAS THE LINK...

I GUESS I CAN POST THE LINK AGAIN..https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HjhO_vsspkw

[runfiverun]

at your 750-775 fps the swc types [358477] will penetrate 18"s of cow neck from top to bottom.
or go all the way through from side to side.
it's just a straight hole with little radial damage and very little nose damage.

[wonderwolf]

I was using the .500 S&W at the time simply because its what was close at hand and required little turning on 1/2" teflon rod stock to make into projectiles. There is no actual recoil or concussion with those teflon loads (iirc the bullets weighed 34gr?)

Here is another short blog post I did about expanding bullets and results, everything else I've done is not HP specific, but the mihec 125gr bullet for me can be loaded to all velocities and expand reliably. I've loaded it way down in .38 short colt and I doubt it would go through 2 layers of drywall.

http://wonderwolfs.blogspot.com/search?updated-max=2015-06-29T14:21:00-07:00&max-results=15&start=13&by-date=false

[daleraby]

The first thing that came to my mind was "why would anybody want to do that?" There are all kinds of factory loads out there designed to do the very thing you are trying to reinvent and without the possibility of getting sued over it. That said, I guess there is no harm in developing the load just for the sake of doing so.

[NavyVet1959]

Are you suggesting finding out how much more penetration I would get at that pitiful speed without those 3 wings?

Correct. In order to know what sort of improvement you are getting, you need to establish a base case to compare it against.

If you don't have a wadcutter that weighs the same, maybe take one from your existing mold and load the bullet backwards in the case?

[OS OK]

I would have to ask Elvis Ammo to try that next time he breaks out the gel blocks on some other work he does in the future. I did send him 50 of those SWC-HP's but after all the trouble he's gone to for my benefit, I hate to impose on him even more.

[ironhead7544]

Did you try a piece of tin foil in the hollow point section of the mold?

[NavyVet1959]

I would have to ask Elvis Ammo to try that next time he breaks out the gel blocks on some other work he does in the future. I did send him 50 of those SWC-HP's but after all the trouble he's gone to for my benefit, I hate to impose on him even more.

You might want to do the baseline with the water tube method since that is what you have available to you at home.

[OS OK]

I shoot them down a 4" x 10' PVC pipe leaned up at a 30* angle against two large oak rounds. I can't see how far they go before they come to a stop and they all end up in the bottom of the pipe before I empty the water and stand it on end to dump the rounds.

Forgive me for being so dense but, I don't understand what this 'baseline' would tell me or what I'd use the rounds for in a physical comparison...and compared to what?

What we have seen in the gel test is how far they will penetrate...9" @ 760 FPS @ 155 grains from the snubby and 11.5" from the 5" barrel Ruger.
From what everyone was saying I was almost convinced they wouldn't penetrate the gel more than 4-6" and then would have to agree that these casts at this speed and weight and the overall diameter of the wings would not be adequate for anything.
Instead, we saw something different...and consistent.

All the while Elvis was talking and leading up to the first shot...I was on pins and needles...

[dubber123]

The first thing that came to my mind was "why would anybody want to do that?" There are all kinds of factory loads out there designed to do the very thing you are trying to reinvent and without the possibility of getting sued over it. That said, I guess there is no harm in developing the load just for the sake of doing so.

I've tried HP's in factory form in a few different calibers over the years. I find most of them are just good marketing and fail miserably in real life, particularly short barreled handgun ammo.

[35remington]

That turned out precisely like I prophesied.....the widely expanded snubby bullets were about 25 percent short of the FBI minimums.

How about a couple of pieces of sheet rock first, to model penetration of a missed shot? This is by far the greatest concern, far more so than that a bullet that hits a perp first. This was a bit of a missed opportunity that was suggested earlier. Best to model the greatest danger, not the least danger.

Please excuse the commentary, but if you want to model the dangers of bullet overpenetration, model those bullets most likely to penetrate, which are the ones that miss.

[NavyVet1959]

I shoot them down a 4" x 10' PVC pipe leaned up at a 30* angle against two large oak rounds. I can't see how far they go before they come to a stop and they all end up in the bottom of the pipe before I empty the water and stand it on end to dump the rounds.

Forgive me for being so dense but, I don't understand what this 'baseline' would tell me or what I'd use the rounds for in a physical comparison...and compared to what?

What we have seen in the gel test is how far they will penetrate...9" @ 760 FPS @ 155 grains from the snubby and 11.5" from the 5" barrel Ruger.
From what everyone was saying I was almost convinced they wouldn't penetrate the gel more than 4-6" and then would have to agree that these casts at this speed and weight and the overall diameter of the wings would not be adequate for anything.
Instead, we saw something different...and consistent.

All the while Elvis was talking and leading up to the first shot...I was on pins and needles...

The reason that you do a baseline when you are testing something is so that you know what you start with. To be able to say that you have a certain "improvement", you need something to compare it against.

At the velocities that you are talking about, you really can't factor in any hydrostatic shock, so you're just talking about the volume that the bullet cuts through as it is going through the body. A wider bullet will not go as deep and that *could* be an issue in some situations.

Let's say you have a .356" diameter bullet that does not expand. It is going to punch a 0.099538 sq-in hole in the body. Let's say that you have a hollowpoint that manages to increase the expansion to 0.5". This means that it is going to punch a 0.1963495 sq-in hole. That's about 97% larger cross-sectional area. But we need to look at the *volume* that is displaced, so we should probably multiply the cross-sectional area by the penetration depth. Of course, bullets don't immediately expand, so this is not entirely accurate, but it might give you an idea of whether a certain line of experimentation is worth pursuing.

Even if the volume disturbed is the same, if the penetration is not enough, then it is just a surface wound.

[OS OK]

[QUOTE=OS OK;3816664]Some of you fellas already know that I've been working on a .38 Special load that could be an 'in house defense load' that would most likely stay in the perp and not exit and pass through a wall and injure someone else. I wanted that load for my wife's .38 Taurus 1 7/8'ths snubby.

The above statement of intent is from the very first post in this thread, to me it seems very clear and precise.

This thread started off with other members posting their empirical results and all the details they had to help develop a cast HP that would open wide, hang together and stop in a limited penetration.
Things were advancing very well until you two started with the FBI standards and theoretical calculations...I don't know how to say it any more clearly than...I don't give a damn about either of these criteria! How many more pages must be devoted to making this clear?

All I'm interested in is how to manipulate the Pb blend coupled with the speed, limited by the use of a snubby and have a HP that actually opens up wide, will penetrate to at least the middle of a perp and stops the round and delivers all the energy.

I am so tired of having to deal with this FBI BS that I actually want to quit this experiment, quit going through all the extra efforts to share this with others who actually seem interested...then go about my way in private.
The results thus far have been different than any other cast HP's I have seen...I never thought this was possible without a metal jacket...
You two, on the other hand can't seem to grasp what I'm talking about...why is it that you persist...is it that you want to sidetrack this thread?
Do you intend to stop me in any way possible?

If you don't have any constructive and helpful things to add...to help things go forward...to make results better...then I suggest you both start your own threads, you expend the time, energy and money, name them something like "Here's proof that charlie's all screwed up", or whatever fits your intent...

But I'll tell you this...I'm done arguing with the likes of you and anyone else who can't figure it out.

I honestly thought this forum was a leader in development of the cast boolit and have been touting this concept all over the net...I am increasingly convinced with my every post here that this is not the case.

[35remington]

Toss the FBI criteria out, by all means, if it does not matter to you.

But if you don't see how said bullet works in terms of penetration if it misses, I'm suggesting you don't have the information you really need. It may drive home the point that shooting well and knowing your direction of fire is far more important than the exact bullet you use.

Perhaps suggesting the obvious method of testing is leadership you do not agree with, but unless you guarantee you will never miss, it seems pretty evident that it is a very relevant point that is being willfully overlooked.

How much and what will a miss penetrate? What happens after a pass through on a two sheet rock wall?

[OS OK]

How about a Glock 19 and 9mm ball ammo from 10' away going through 23 layers of sheetrock spaced 3 1/2" apart and putting a good mark on a cinder block after that? GLOCK 19 VS DRYWALL - SHOOTING WALL (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XQbJLvBU37E)

If that doesn't satisfy your curiosity I can't do any better. No one is publishing any cast .38 specials in SWC HP's in the same test.
I would imagine my load will get through at least the first wall...then kill anyone standing behind that even if he is 350 pounds of drugged up and pissed off perp. So, that oughta kill my granddaughter, grandson or my daughter in law or my son in our guest room easily...so, this cast I've got so far is a FAIL.

Oh, but...wait...I didn't say anything about it not penetrating a sheetrock wall if I shoot the wall first...did I?

I AM NOT MAKING A MAGIC BOOLIT THAT CAN PERFORM LIKE THAT...WHAT EVER GAVE YOU THE DAMN IDEA THAT I WAS?

A miss is a miss is a miss and Murphy's gonna have his way with that...or at least until I get some MAGIC BOOLIT ADDITIVE so I can add this scenario of yours to my original intent...

Jesus Lord above...please give me the wherewithal to deal with this guy 35remington before I S C R E A M ! AMEN!

ARE YOU SATISFIED NOW? DO YOU HAVE ANY FURTHER RABBIT HOLES WE CAN GO DOWN?

[35remington]

It is not my intent to get you so riled. Just pointing out that the idea of a "safer" bullet to fire in the home is a mistaken one, and may have the opposite effect if pursuit in a particular direction is overdone.

[yondering]

It is not my intent to get you so riled. Just pointing out that the idea of a "safer" bullet to fire in the home is a mistaken one, and may have the opposite effect if pursuit in a particular direction is overdone.

Let it go man. You're trying to argue something that the OP is not claiming. Your statements are not wrong, but you're not helping anything either. Just stop.

[OS OK]

These are some from a couple weeks ago, some of the ones I sent to Elvis Ammo to gel test (( Hollow Point (CONTROLLED EXPANSION) Initiator Rounds ===) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HjhO_vsspkw))...the initiator tips were made of 'Big Stretch' caulking and it has shrunk. I suppose if I stay with that I'll have to do two applications...so...

182593
I thought of finding something else to use as a tip...first to mind is window screen retainer spline, it's flexible to some extent and it fits in these HP's nice and snug...

182594
then it cuts easily with a razor blade and stays wedged in there...I'm thinking, this is too easy!


182595
And, sure enough it was...too easy. Only one little problem is that it's too hard too...it must be a fluke that one of these HP's tried to open up when the other 4 didn't want to comply.
I re-measured the BHN of these today before testing just to insure that I always know their hardness as that tends to migrate around with out explanation. Last week they were at 6.2 and today they (the one I tested) was at 5.9. That's a slight variation and could be just the variance I might get out of the Lee tester, who knows...but it's there.
Maybe too, our blends of tiny amounts of Tin, in this case 1% to pure lead of 5 BHN doesn't mix thoroughly in our pots, or...that slight amount just is not enough to go around and actually be enough by volume to 'lattice up' with the lead...I dunnoh?

182596
These were fired out of the snubby at 750FPS.
Someone earlier mentioned I oughta try hot melt glue as initiator tips, that's a messy finger burning thought...I'll prolly give that a go tomorrow.

Any suggestions?

[Blackwater]

Well, I'm still enjoying this thread greatly. Been a long time since I've seen this type of data presented here. And .35 does have a valid point. For me, I've just decided to shoot hard cast WFP's or SWC's at the best velocity I can get, and rely on bullet placement. I also kind'a like the fact that a load can punch through a wall and still get through to the bad guy. He might be hiding behind a wall, and I might in some plausible scenarios WANT to shoot through and still hit what's on the other side.

But as I said earlier, it's just me and the wife now, so I'm not nearly as concerned about other "good guys" in the house now. If I know where she is, and know there's someone on the other side of a wall just waiting for me to make a move, and I have no other real choice if I want to live, then penetration CAN be a real asset.

But as they say, "different strokes for different folks," and expansion is not the goal, stopping a perp is. And truly, I'm not very sure which way is actually better. With the limited velocity available in snubbies, I've abandoned trying to get expansion unless I can shoot +P's or better, even though you've conclusively proven, IMO, that it CAN be done. I'm always open to a "better way" and new info and applications for same.

Thanks for a great thread, and keep up the great work! You have me thinking and considering again, and that's NEVER a bad thing!

[35remington]

Tin mixes very thoroughly with lead. I would suspect any differences are due to Lee hardness tester variation....it's hard to measure an indent precisely with the supplied graticule on the magnifier.

Whatever is used for a cavity filler has to flow like a fluid to act as a proper initiator. It is also possible that some media fluid got between filler and HP wall and tended toward the lopsided expansion you see. That is, if the filler was not a tight fit. If it was a tight fit there is something about the material used as a filler that did not collapse evenly on impact. If the bullet was fired into the media at close range it is possible some amount of bullet precession influenced results with this particular cavity filler. With close range shots this is always a possibility even with no fluid or filler.

Maybe actual fluid or the caulk you were using would be better if that is not working. Have to wonder if caulk would not eventually harden over time and lose its flow properties, turning the bullet into a solid? I suppose that might give the ammo a shelf life.

A further explanation of my suggestion for sheet rock testing is in order so I am not misunderstood. A fluid filled tip may not plug like a open hollow point does when striking sheet rock, and this has potential for limiting penetration IF the bullet expands on hitting sheet rock. THIS WOULD BE AN IMPROVEMENT EVEN IF A MISS OCCURRED. Because the bullet would have less penetration than a plugged hollow point, which is a solid.

Since a miss is a possibility, see if a fluid filled tip can limit penetration by deforming the bullet on a "sheet rock first" strike. Fluid is provided to initiate expansion even if no fluid is present in the target. Two layers of rock would be most like an actual wall. Model everything that could happen and see if there is a benefit.

[Spector]

As the volatiles evaporate in any initiator material I would assume that as it shrinks it also hardens as it consolidates. I am not sure that simply refilling after shrinkage would be best. On the other hand I have never really checked hot glue for shrinkage although we have had it around the house for many years and I cannot detect any difference. I bought a glue stick intended for the sportsman's box over 20 years ago. It has been in my tackle boxes all that time and it is still flexible.
I like the fact that when I place boolits on a ceramic topped electric burner and control the heat by turning it on and off to keep it from getting too hot and the glue just settles in, allows any tiny air bubbles to float to the top and burst. The glue will create a slight bubble free symmetrical dome and the material being glue bonds well even in tapered hollow point cavities.

I am simply not well versed in what different flexibilities might be available in hot glue sticks. I have only glue sticks I see commonly available in craft stores and I save all the booger glue that attaches credit cards to letters and other mailings I receive. I keep it in a screw top medicine bottle.

This allows me to vary the flexibility, but as I stated earlier it takes very little booger glue to really soften regular glue gun sticks. The harder glue seems to slide against steel easily and the booger glue seems to drag on steel. That was why I attempted to put a hard glue cap over underlying booger glue. They simply mixed though.

It can be a little tedious dropping tiny pieces of glue into a hollow point even albeit a larger hollow point. But I can do it and get no glue outside of the hollow point cavity.

I like to slice thin strips off the glue stick and further split those with a razor blade creating longer strips. Once the glue builds up in the hollow point cavity I just apply a strip of glue like adding stick to a weld. Then stop and let the glue become symmetrical. Turn off all heat and just let them cool to room temp..

I think most of us will not require many of these filled hollow points for self defense or hunting.

Mike

[OS OK]

This hot melt glue ain't looking too promising and I think it's too hard even though the glue stick is flexible to some extent. I don't like the idea of goofing around with a razor, cutting strips putting pieces in the nose and heating on the hot plate...I want to work out a method that is quick and easy.
I'll never make more than 100 of these into final loaded rounds at any one time. If this doesn't turn out quick, economical and easy then it'll go by the way like anything else that becomes too much of a chore to do.
I'm starting to think pure silicone sealant loaded into another hypodermic syringe like I did with the Big Stretch caulk.
Like 35r said...there may be a shelf life thing built in here...I don't want to deal with that aspect.
And yes...I'll see about sheetrock penetration/expansion and do it in a 3 1/2" spaced increment just like a wall...I just am going to tend to first things first before I go into that...I want to see about wound channel size in wet newsprint. But...these tips have to be worked out first.


182604

Injecting directly into the HP doesn't get it at all...and when you go to wipe the ends flush...well...your burnt!

[Spector]

OK. I'll keep working with the hot glue sticks mixed with booger glue and others can try other materials hopefully discovering an easy to use non-shrinking initiator that also bonds to the hollow point cavity which becomes more important if it is a shallow tapered cavity.

It is probably not as important in deep straight sided cavities.

Mike

[35remington]

NVets suggestion of a baseline really is good. FBI load would be prime as an example. You can emulate some features of that load and try to surpass it (less penetration in building materials) in others.

[lightload]

In your search for an initiator, have you tried kids' silly putty, or modeling clay or regular putty which comes in various consistencies?

[Sean357]

Been reading this and just thought of a silicon sealant/adhesive that might work for what you're needing, DC 734 flowable. It's clear, flows easily so should fill the hollow point. I use it on aircraft for various applications, even after a couple years it seems to hold its elasticity and not harden up. No shrinkage that I've noticed either, but I wasn't really watching for that. It's pricey at ~$25-$30 per tube, but seems to have the properties needed. I also have another one in mind but can't think of the name right now, it's cheaper too but might still work.

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk

[runfiverun]

got any air soft BB's?