The virtues of bulky and "hard to measure" powders

[Blackwater]

I note a lot of prejudice against bulky powders, and large grained ones that can be hard to measure precisely. This seems to come more from the younger shooter/reloaders. And there IS merit in a nice, free-flowing powder when using progressive presses. It's more of a safety thing, really. Powders that flow like water tend to give more uniform powder charges. It's just that simple.

However, I fear some have lost sight of the real virtues of some of the bulkier and larger grained powders. Gen. Hatcher, when he was head of Springfield Armory and in charge of ammo production, was once tasked with putting out more accurate ammo for the various military shooting teams. 4064 was the powder they were using, and it worked very well. So the first thing he did was test machine run ammo that used mechanically dumped charges against ammo where the powder was carefully hand weighed, and absolutely consistent, and guess what happened? The machine dumped ammo outshot the stuff with the carefully hand-weighed charges!

This puzzled him and all his staff, and he thought it was a fluke, so tried it again, and several more times. Each time, he got the same result, and the dumped charges shot better. Not by a lot, but it was enough to determine the winner of a match possibly. So what did he do when his expectations were proven wrong? He did the only thing he reasonably COULD do, and just accepted the unexpected results, and began looking for a reason WHY he'd gotten the results he did. He noticed that the machine poured charges stood taller inside the case than the hand weighed and hand poured ones. Then, the light bulb went on. He reasoned that the bulkier charge left a bit more air space between the powder granules, and thus, more space for the flame from the primer to ignite the charge more evenly, completely and consistently. He said he couldn't prove this, but this was his only reasonable explanation for it.

Since then, ignition has become better understood, and I think Hatcher's theory can now be considered pretty well "proven," or at least sufficiently so that we can learn and benefit from the theory as reloaders.

One more thing bulky charges do is simply fill larger capacity cases, so that powder position, and thus ignition, is more uniform. This is a common situation in the old, originally black powder cases like .38 Sp., .45 Colt, etc. And if we don't produce ACCURATE ammo, what's the point? Guns of all types were created to HIT things, not as noise makers. So, even if they do present some challenges, they still have their place and their virtues, and if you're after accuracy, particularly in some of the older, larger cases, turning away from the "bulky, hard to measure" powders may not be the best thing we reloaders could do.

Red Dot and Unique are rather bulky, and have proven themselves for several generations now. And some complain they don't burn as cleanly as some newer formulations do, but .... well, they have this new invention called OIL and solvents, and proper care for ANY gun involves a good cleaning after its use, so .... what's the big deal?

And one last point: Large grained powders dump much better from a powder measure IF we simply take out the .22 cal. nozzle and replace it with the .30 cal. nozzle. That alone, usually eliminates bridging, even with the very large grained slow powders used in rifles. Grain size is also our oldest and surest way of controlling the burn rate of powders. Our chemistry is so much better now, but granule size works every time.

So if you have a prejudice against the bulky and large grained powders, you might want to reconsider, buy a pound and give them a try. If you suddenly start getting smaller groups, don't be too surprised. Just do like Gen. Hatcher did and smile that you've found "something better," and maybe learned something worth while. Prejudice and unmet expectations seem to abound today, but if we learn from it, we become better and more complete shooter/reloaders, I think. They have their place, uses and benefits, and like all such things, if we pan them too much, we lose, rather than "win." Just my thoughts on it.

Getting progressive machines to work perfectly every time IS a big consideration, and Heaven knows, everyone wants to save more time now. But knowing how to deal with the bulkier powders, and watch the machine carefully, and listening to it intently, CAN allow us to do a better job and produce more accurate ammo so we CAN learn to become better shots, and not just make more noise. I've come to love some of the bulky powders, simply because of what they DO for me, and allow me to do with them. YMMV, but this has been my observations on the subject of powders.

[Scharfschuetze]

Nicely said Blackwater. Sometimes I feel like an old curmudgeon for sticking with the tried and true bulky propellants for much of my rifle and handgun reloading. That said, I do use a lot of Winchester 748 ball powder in the 223 Remington as well as tight group and 231 in several handgun loads. The best tool for the job is quite often an old one.

[mdi]

I started loading pre-web, so I wasn't exposed to "bulky vs. easy metering" or "clean burning vs. dirty" controversies . I read about a powder's performance, which came first, then it's other "properties". I have been using a powder considered "dirty" and thus not to be used, for 30+ years; Unique. I have been using a powder that is bulky and hard to meter, since I got my Garand 4 years ago; IMR4064. I guess I just don't have any problems cleaning my firearms or being extra careful when I charge my cases with powder...

[shredder]

Awesome post! I never knew about Hatcher's experiment although I have heard the same result in various publications over the years. The statement that weighed charges are not better than measure thrown in bulky stick powders is very contentious! Proof has already been repeatedly established but that will not stop the ones who do no experimenting from proclaiming it totally wrong. It is counter intuitive but hey! the reloading and casting thing is so full of counter intuitive things this fits well for me! Love my powder measure even more now!

[35remington]

Due to its bulk and burn speed 4064 is my most often used powder for center fire rifles. Excellent case fill at full power charge weights. Due to this feature I consider it superior to 4895 as an all around powder and much prefer it to the excessively dense ball powders of similar burn speed that leave too much airspace in the case to suit me.

[flint45]

I have always liked the bulkier powders, going to try that nozzle trick never thought of that.Shot acouple hundred rouns of ammo loaded with unique and cast boolits the other day the guns and my hands were nice and dirty just the way I like em ITS FUN GETTIN DIRTY!:Fire:

[gwpercle]

Bullseye , Red Dot and Unique would cover all my handgun reloading needs nicely.
Not being able to find them has expander my powder use to 700X, Titegroup , HP-38 , Accurate #5 and I have even been using an old can of Alcan Powder , AL-5. Dealer was closing out Alcan powder stock and I bought it for $1.00.
I don't reload on a progressive machine.
I use a Lyman 55 measure , if you set the cavity to give you a deep narrow cavity and use the correct consistent operation of the measure , it will throw accurate charges.
If I don't want to reset the measure , I use scoops, done consistently , a scoop is a very accurate way to dispense those bulky powders.
A lot of loaders may not even be aware of how consistent scooped charges can be , especially with those flaked powders.
Gary

[dragon813gt]

Start loading for 10mm. You will eventually end up at 800-X. I bought a solution for hard to meter powders years ago. It's called a RCBS Chargemaster. It's fast enough to keep up w/ a LCT. And I know every charge is correct.

[Maven]

Well said and most interesting, Blackwater. Thank you for posting this!

[ShooterAZ]

I love the "bulky" powders, and have no problems throwing accurate and consistent charges with either a Dillon measure or RCBS Uniflow. I load all my rifle stuff single stage. With the really large grained rifle powders I set to throw just a tad light into the pan, then trickle the rest until it's right on the money. "Cleanliness" is not an issue, because I am OC about cleaning my guns after a day at the range.

[EMC45]

I like 700X and 800X. They meter like saucers, but with dippers they do just fine.

[dtknowles]

I use a bunch of Red Dot and my powder measures handle it fine. No way I would be happy without some ball powders and fine stick powders for things like .357 Mag. .357 Max. , .22 Hornet, 6mm PPC and others.

We would not have such a variety of powders if some small selection covered the waterfront.

Tim

[waco]

Start loading for 10mm. You will eventually end up at 800-X. I bought a solution for hard to meter powders years ago. It's called a RCBS Chargemaster. It's fast enough to keep up w/ a LCT. And I know every charge is correct.

SR4759 is why I bought an RCBS Charge Master 1500.........

[Wayne Smith]

I started loading the 30-30 with IMR3031 with a Lee wack a mole loader at 16 - and still prefer it. Bullseye, Unique, 4064, and 2400 are my most used powders at this time. I do use a B&M measure and don't have a progressive.

[Boolseye]

When I started a few years ago it was with 40 y/o containers of 700x, 4064 and 3130.
i don't really even consider the "dirty" or "clean" charge. As for speed of reloading-I like slow and methodical. I did find I could get decent consistency with 800x out of my Redding powder measure using the rifle micrometer.

[dragon813gt]

SR4759 is why I bought an RCBS Charge Master 1500.........

I bought one "just because". But I'm sure glad I did. And it's seen plenty of SR4759 flow through it.

[ascast]

I would be curious to know which progressive handles the bulky stick powders better?

[GhostHawk]

Red Dot is my prefered powder. I never understood why people thought it was "dirty" until I loaded my first 50 rounds of .40sw with 175 gr TC. Soot half way back on the outside, inside like a coal mine. Hmmm I thought, lets try a couple at half a grain higher.

Cases came out clean and barrel was shiny. Light bulb went off, half a grain raised pressure to where it burns clean. Gee I bet you could do the same with a slightly heavier for caliber boolit too!

I don't think I have a ball powder in my reloading area. IMR 4895 I have, 4350 also, and a can of IMR 3031. Is there a caliber 3031 does not work in?

[dtknowles]

Red Dot is my prefered powder. I never understood why people thought it was "dirty" until I loaded my first 50 rounds of .40sw with 175 gr TC. Soot half way back on the outside, inside like a coal mine. Hmmm I thought, lets try a couple at half a grain higher.

Cases came out clean and barrel was shiny. Light bulb went off, half a grain raised pressure to where it burns clean. Gee I bet you could do the same with a slightly heavier for caliber boolit too!

I don't think I have a ball powder in my reloading area. IMR 4895 I have, 4350 also, and a can of IMR 3031. Is there a caliber 3031 does not work in?

3031 won't work in 380ACP or if you meant rifle caliber, .22 Hornet.

Dude, you are missing the boat you need to buy some ball powder.

Tim

[Digital Dan]

I dislike ball powders in the main, mostly because they rarely outperform stick or flake powders.

[Blackwater]

For myself, I like all powders. If it goes "bang," I'll take it and use it. Mostly, I'll use anything that'll give me my best accuracy, and I've tried as many as 15 different powders in a single gun trying to find the "magic load." But some seem to eschew the bulky and long grained "difficult to measure" powders, and I just thought someone needed to stand up and defend them. Great accuracy is where you find it, and often, for me at least, it's been with those "awful" big grained and long grained powders that many seem to be prejudiced against these days. Getting near 100% charge density in a case seems to make a significant difference, oftentimes, and what's the point in shooting if we're not learning something with each squeeze? And only accurate loads (and powders) give us that benefit. Quick and easy has its place, of course, but when one gets serious about accuracy, don't be surprised if it's those antiquated old large flake and long grained rifle powders that do the trick for you. Accuracy nuts have been using them for a very long time. I like some ball powders, like 748 in .223 or 296/H110 in mag. pistol calibers, but day in and day out, I usually use the extruded powders simply because they've given my my best accuracy, typically and commonly. But I'm too much of an accuracy nut to turn down ANY powder, at least for a try. Neat, tidy and quick is good, but accurate is better every time, in my book.

[WyomingWhitetail]

For rifle calibers I rarely stray from what I grew up with, the core 4 or 5 imr offerings. Mostly 3031, 4064, and 4895. Use a little 4320 and 4350. Never had any reason to try anything else in rifles. Been using a lot of bullseye lately in pistols and like it for its easy metering.

[Iowa Fox]

I would be curious to know which progressive handles the bulky stick powders better?

Dillon 450

[44man]

I fear some powder measures so I dump into the pan and weigh each charge unless a ball powder. I Use a Redding BR measure with the baffle and it is close. But I still trickle.
Now the funny thing was BP. If I pour into my little measure and dump in the barrel I get better accuracy then weighed charges so there is something to be said for volume over weight. A charge from a measure with any powder CAN be more accurate.

[WRideout]

I started loading the 30-30 with IMR3031 with a Lee wack a mole loader at 16 - and still prefer it. Bullseye, Unique, 4064, and 2400 are my most used powders at this time. I do use a B&M measure and don't have a progressive.

As a college kid, in about 1978, a friendly gun store owner/gunsmith allowed me to use his reloading equipment in the store, and only pay for the cost of components used. Back then I thought IMR3031 was the only smokeless powder made. I still have a can of it, although I tend to use others now that I am casting my own boolits. For the longest time I only used Dupont powder for metallic, and Hercules for shotgun (is that Alliant now?).

I have run quantities of stick powder through my Lyman measure, and while it can be annoying that it hangs up once in a while, I never had an actual "problem" with it, and have just stayed with that method. The only powder measure I have personally used that didn't seem to chop stick powder was an elderly Hollywood that belonged to my stepfather. If I could find one for the right price, I would probably buy it.

Wayne

[Blackwater]

One other little tidbit about the stick type powders is their construction. Ball powders are round or rolled so they're oval shaped in cross section. Stick powders are simple extruded "logs," but they have a trick to them. They have perforations in the center that run through the length of the granules. What this does, is allow the flame of the burning gasses to get inside and burn from the inside out. As the outside burns, it gets smaller, and everything burns on the surface inward. On the inside, due to the perforations, the granule burns and makes the hole larger as it progressively burns. This makes for a situation where the powder burns at a more even rate than ball powders tend to. This is addressed in ball type powders via the chemistry in them, and in the coatings they use to help control the burning rate. Chemistry applies to the extruded powders as well, but the physical construction of the granules tends to give a more consistent "push" to the bullets, which may also be one of the reasons they often show superior accuracy. This may be a factor with naked cast bullets in particular.

Any powder requires testing, and each powder has its own peculiar and individual niche where it really tends to shine. Things like pressure also control the burning rate of all powders. Increase the pressure, and you simultaneously increase the burning rate. I'm no authority on powders, but this is what I've picked up through the years about powders.

And whatever powder you choose or like, the ONLY way to know what it'll do is to try it on targets and see. All the theory in the world can't replace a single good test on paper. So, at least with the present and maybe future difficulty in finding the powders we want and are habituated to, it may be a good time to try some new stuff. I know some folks who've been pleasantly surprised when they bought an "also ran" powder, and found it was MORE accurate than their old favored powder. Ya' jes' never know 'till ya' try it.

[mdi]

I would be curious to know which progressive handles the bulky stick powders better?
A press is a press is a press. A powder measure is what actually measures the powder charge, and I think you can put almost any powder measure on any press...:roll:

[fatelvis]

SR4759 is why I bought an RCBS Charge Master 1500.........

The exact reason I bought my Chargemaster too!

[Messy bear]

I also use bulky powders. One that is really a challenge to meter is AL-8. But its one of the bulkiest powders I know of. Need to use a measure that's really open and unrestricted. Adding graphite helps a little. This is 6 or 7 dollar powder so thats nice too. A little faster than 2400 but slower than HS-7 with lots of bulk.

[dtknowles]

I also use bulky powders. One that is really a challenge to meter is AL-8. But its one of the bulkiest powders I know of. Need to use a measure that's really open and unrestricted. Adding graphite helps a little. This is 6 or 7 dollar powder so thats nice too. A little faster than 2400 but slower than HS-7 with lots of bulk.

Is there really such a thing as a 6 or 7 dollar powder these days. I would be happy with a 15 dollar powder.

Tim

[runfiverun]

I had some 15 dollar powder..
I'm happy, no,, ecstatic with 18-20$ now.

not all powders that are stick shape are the same.
you can manipulate the same basic formula into different burn speeds by many means.
the hole in the center, burn deterrent, coatings, holes crosswise.
they all change how the powder burns and some change rate as they burn [rl-17]
700-x and 800-x are the same formula they are just different shapes and thickness so burn at different rates.

as far as bulky powders metering efficiently they can depending on how they are metered.
a little hollow rod spinning back and forth is going to measure bulky powders differently than a hole that slides back and forth.
some powders just don't flow well into any opening and it's best to just measure them by weight to get any consistency.

[Messy bear]

[QUOTE=dtknowles;3814215]Is there really such a thing as a 6 or 7 dollar powder these days. I would be happy with a 15 dollar powder.

Tim[/QUOTE
Not sure lately. This was a surplus Bartlett sale a few years ago.

[dtknowles]

[QUOTE=dtknowles;3814215]Is there really such a thing as a 6 or 7 dollar powder these days. I would be happy with a 15 dollar powder.

Tim[/QUOTE
Not sure lately. This was a surplus Bartlett sale a few years ago.

Does Bartlett still sell surplus powder? I guess I could search the internet. I bought a gallon Clorox type bottle of pistol powder from someone about a year ago, was supposed to be some where between N110 and H110, I have not used any of it yet but it would work in a lot of cartridges I shoot. It was, if I recall correctly, about $15 a pound.

How many others use powder from these small distributors?

Tim

[dragon813gt]

Bartlett sells surplus powder when he has it. A lot of what he's had is new production. I should have bought the H110 equivalent, Unique equivalent, SR4759 equivalent and 4895 when he had them. Not that I need it, especially the Unique. But it would be nice to have it just because. I passed on the H110 equivalent because the real powder has such a narrow charge range.