Oil supply

[Junior1942]

I live in Louisiana's oil belt. Last night at the local honky tonk I was sitting between two age 30 guys who work on land drilling rigs for different companies. One guy's company is adding rigs as fast as possible. The other guy's company just finished building 34 new land rigs and is in the process of hiring crews to man those new rigs.

Those young fellows make exactly the same pay as they discussed it in length. They make a base pay of $98,000 a year with full benefits and bonuses. They work 7 days on and 7 days off.

My family is about to be blessed with 3 deep natural gas wells. The price of oil and natural gas is high enough for an oil company to spend big bucks on lawyers to research the heirs and to force the unwilling heirs to sign anyway. Some people will turn down money if it means someone they hate won't get any money either. My momma called it, Cutting off your nose to spite your face.

The above scene is taking place all over America's oil belts. Oil companies are frantically adding drilling rigs and just as frantically leasing hitherto un-leasable land. In a couple of years the results will = supply catching up with demand.

[JSnover]

Since this is just a response to the higher price (it wasn't considered profitable until now) I doubt we'll see any relief at the pump. Either way, I hope it works out well for you.

[10-x]

Junior, CONGRTAULATIONS!!!!

Now maybe this will make you a Republican!!!!![smilie=1:

(just kidding)

[Scrounger]

Junior, CONGRTAULATIONS!!!!

Now maybe this will make you a Republican!!!!![smilie=1:

(just kidding)

Maybe one of the guys will send you a "I love George" T-shirt.

[JSnover]

Damn...... Now I'll have to support high energy prices because my CastBoolitsBuddy Junior gets to pocket some of it.
Any chance you might hold a site benefit auction.......?[smilie=1:

[Junior1942]

I won't get a penny of the money due to the fact that I gave my part of the family land to my daughter 20+ years ago. However, her and my sister will get the biggest slice of the royalties, so I will benefit indirectly. The royalties could easily be $10,000 per month each. Of course, the wells may be dry holes, but the oil company drilling them has a good well on an adjacent 40.

PS: gas wells are notoriously fickle. For example, back in the 70s a friend drilled his own gas well on his own land. In other words, he got 100% of the production. Things were going along just fine, and he was raking in loads of money. Then he decided he could rake in even more money via changing the choke to one with just a slightly larger hole. It would allow more gas to pass through. So he changed the choke, and his well sanded up and never produced another cubic foot of gas.

[Bret4207]

I recently heard that an oil field in the North Ddakota/Montana area hadbecome economically feasable to develop. Estimates palce it, at best, as having 415 BILLION recoverable barrels of light, sweet crude using todays technology. One industry guy said, "It's like discovering 5 Saudi Arabias in your back yard." Now whether this field will actually ever produce any oil is still up in the air, but it does make one wonder if maybe the future isn't quite so bleak after all. Given some decent new technology, a few fields to hold us over until things get going, Gov't cutting some of the red tape involved with refineries, continued experiments with clean coal, nukes, wind, solar, etc. we might actually have a future.

Of course the enviro whacko's and their lawyers will put the brakes on all of this ASAP!

[felix]

From what I have learned from the past, the gas wells in Louisiana have up to 20 percent propane. Now, that is a quality gas unmatched by any other area in the continent. It would be a shame to have a working hole like that get slammed shut because of greed. ... felix

[gon2shoot]

I have worked in the energy production business for over 30 yrs.
The tree-huggers and bugs and bunny folks have added a significant amount to the cost of things. Some was necessary, a lot is pure BS politics.
We have A LOT of resources in this country but it aint cheap to get to market.
I don't expect to see prices to fall much untill consumers make some changes.

So I'm only spending about $250 a week on fuel.[smilie=1:

[Bret4207]

I'd alos note that while our group of lovable bufoons collectively know as "Congress" has outlawed and restricted Americas ablilty to drilloff shore, the Chinese are signing 100 year leases in the Gulf of Mehico, or so the news says. Gotta admire the long term vision of our politicians

[MT Gianni]

There was a major find a few years ago in an area of Utah that no one expected to see. Ther are plenty of wells going in in the "patch area of MT/ND.
Wet gas, or gas with a high btu content is measured but it is what the contract states as to whether you are paid for wet or dry gas in most cases. Nat gas runs 950-1000 btu /cuft, LP is 1500 and Butane 2000. The more hydrocarbins the "wetter" the gas, so the higher the price. There is still a very large amount of coal that can be burned cleanly and we should re-examine nuclear, imho, but I think we will continue to hit bumps in the road in the near future, especially when the incentive to find the new fuels and sources lies in the hands of the ones currently controlling production. Gianni

[454PB]

I find it curious that we've been up against this "energy crisis" since about 1973, and our government has done nothing to address the issue for those 35 years, and yet now it's George W's fault.....and even with a democratic controlled congress.

I wasted 2 1/2 hours of my life the other night watching "There Will Be Blood". I thought the movie sucked, but you gotta admire the men that developed the oil industry.

[MT Gianni]

454PB, the Government has addressed the energy crisis. My 1980 Datsun 210 got and honest 40+ mpg and it was carborated. Thanks to Gov. interference/intervention we can't get near that with fuel injected cars today. Gianni

[JSnover]

If the gov't didn't react in the 70s, they sure as hell won't now. The Saudis literally stole the wells and refineries and kicked the foriegners (us!) out. And all the Carter administration could come up with was price controls; an economic disaster. No matter how bad things get, I almost feel safer if I know they'll do nothing.
The nearest I ever got to 40mpg was in a '95 Buick with a V6: 32mpg on the highway. Maybe not stellar, but pretty good for a mid-sized car. Plus it had every creature comfort and safety feature available for that model year. Everything's a trade-off.......

[Boerrancher]

look folks, it is simple, if you think about it every problem this nation faces has been caused by our gov,both reps and dems alike. Now you have not only the presidential candidates but every one else in gov trying to convince you that MORE gov is the solution to the problems that THEY created. If you doubt this statement, name a problem that we face that was not created by our Gov and I will gladly explain to you how it was.

Best wishes form the Boer Ranch,

Joe

PS Woke up to a brand new Boer Baby this morning, the herd keeps growing.

[Scrounger]

Every day I get more old and decrepit. Any chance I can blame that on the government? Or anybody except me....

[10-x]

Does the government cause CRS?

Maybe all of us can blame it on them and get some of our tax $$$back[smilie=1:

[45nut]

http://apnews.myway.com//article/20080609/D916LLF00.html

Saudis call for meeting about oil prices


Jun 9, 12:27 PM (ET)

RIYADH, Saudi Arabia (AP) - Saudi Arabia says it will call for a meeting of oil producing countries and consumers to discuss soaring oil prices and work to prevent unjustified rise in prices.

Information and Culture Minister Iyad Madani says the kingdom will work with OPEC to "guarantee the availability of oil supplies now and in the future."

In a statement following the weekly Cabinet meeting, Monday, the minister said Saudi Arabia will also work to control "unwarranted and unnatural" price hikes.

He said that the current price of oil is unjustified.

[Boz330]

Does the government cause CRS?

Maybe all of us can blame it on them and get some of our tax $$$back[smilie=1:


2 weeks ago I received a letters from the state saying I hadn't payed my taxes on 2 airplanes I'm parteners in. This was due the end of last year. They of course added on the reasonable (to them) penalty and interest of 25%. In addition they increased the value tremendously as well. I called the number on the notice and told the guy that if it had not been paid then why did I have 2 bills and one cashed check for the amount of those bills. Long story short there is no communication between the counties that collect the taxes and the state.

[bruce drake]

Boz,

They were expecting you to take the fleecing like a sheeple and pay again...

Good for you and did you tell them that you'd expect a decrease in next year's taxes to cover the time you wasted fixing their problem.

Bruce

[joeb33050]

I find it curious that we've been up against this "energy crisis" since about 1973, and our government has done nothing to address the issue for those 35 years, and yet now it's George W's fault.....and even with a democratic controlled congress.

I wasted 2 1/2 hours of my life the other night watching "There Will Be Blood". I thought the movie sucked, but you gotta admire the men that developed the oil industry.

"and our government has done nothing to address the issue for those 35 years"

Gas mileage for the fleet has gone up a lot.
Left turn on red.
Teeny spare tires.
55 mph speed limit.
Tax incentives for insulating houses, replacement of boilers, insulating public building roofs, doors and windows, new water heaters. Look at the efficiency of gas and oil furnaces now.
I was in the business of replacing boilers in public buildings with government help for the municipality on the $$$, and my guess is that on average, energy consumption was reduced by more than half. FOR EVER!!
What happened was that gas got cheap, you didn't want to go 55 any more, or pay for city halls to replace boilers and insulate roofs, you found the loophole in the mileage standards and bought SUVs, you took down your solar water heaters and went back to 2X4 from 2X6 walls, and now you bitch about the government not doing anything. You, the people, are responsible for what your elected representatives do. YOU are responsible! I'll bet the ranch that if all the contributors to this topic (except me) copied their letters to representatives regarding energy policy, for the last 35 years, and we put them in a pile, that the pile wouldn't have enough energy to fry an egg.
You live in a republic. You elect your representatives, from alderman to president. If you get off your F.A. and vote, and about half of you don't, then those representatives will be guided by your votes and messages.
You know the deal, you were taught the deal in grade school.
If you don't participate, don't bitch.

Wink
joe b.

[JSnover]

I dunno, Joe. I've been voting for quite a while and it doesn't seem to work. I've also written a stack of letters on numerous topics and gotten a pre-printed, rubber-stamped response to each one.
You're right about consumers' behavior affecting the price of commodities but it seems to me (and others) the government will only get involved to suit their own interests, not ours. In this case it's a moot point, though. Oil is such an important commodity I'd rather not give our elected officials control over the markets, since it's a virtual guarantee they'll screw things up even worse, IMO.

[Bad Water Bill]

First off take crude oil off the futures market. Next find out who is getting filthy rich on the price of diesel fuel. I was just offered a price on a 55 gal drum delivered to the house for almost the price of a big mack less than the local station per gal. No I do not want big brother sticking his nose in but ---------. Years ago there was a law against price fixing. There were laws against meeting in a hotel room and all setting the same price. It seams like today the petroleum cos play can you top this. No I do not have an answer.

[blinddog]

It seems if i recall right the first deisel engiens ran bio fuel, that is what they was desghined to run on. I have a carbide generator from the 40s that still works, when i can get carbide. all the rooms in our house have oil lamps, just in case( ice storms mostley).wood stove blower has 12 volt back up can run for 4 days. we put in about 1 1/2 acers of garden each year and can the heck out of it.
the economy sucks, yes. but you can prepare your self the best you can, vote for the less of two eviels, and make your voice heard![smilie=1:

[454PB]

I assure you Joe, I've voted every election since I was old enough to do so.

Where I live, you can only turn RIGHT at red lights.

How many oil refineries or nuclear power plants have been built in the last 35 years?

There is enough coal in Mt. and Wyoming to power the country for 100 years, yet we still burn natural gas and oil for that purpose.

Hydro electric power is renewable, but is nearly verboten due to environmental concerns raised by the same types that want to outlaw lead in ammunition.

Until the electorate is willing to accept some well controlled environmental risks and the various government officials at all levels collectively prod them into acting on new sources of energy, we have to bite the boolit and pay for imported oil. We should have been drilling in ANWR and off our coasts 20 years ago. Instead, Mexico and China are now planning to do that.

The "NIMBY" attitude has put us where we are.

[Boerrancher]

vote for the less of two eviels, and make your voice heard![smilie=1:

That is the problem for the last 100 years we have been "voting for the lesser of two evils." That is why I am voting for Bob Barr (L) for president. I see very little difference between the communist and the socialist candidates.

Please take the time to watch this video interview with Glenn Beck

http://www.bobbarr2008.com/media-center/play/93

Best wishes from the Boer Ranch,

Joe

[MT Gianni]

Blinddog, great first post and welcome. Gianni

[floodgate]

Boer:

Remember the NAIS (National Animal Identification System) flap a couple of years back? Register all your animals (even goldfish, it was proposed at one time); implant a $10 micro-chip for ID; file a report within 48 hours every time the animal crosses a property line; etc., etc.. That one was laughed to death, fortunately - but "THEY" are still trying. We quit the local Farmers Market scene five years back, after they imposed three tiers of regulation and inspection - local, County and State: report all vegetables etc., brought to market, all taken back unsold, reconcile with log of sales, fines if they didn't match, yatata, yatata. A neighbor is setting up a guerilla Farmer's Market at Navarro, two miles away; we won't register, report or notify NOBODY, NOHOW!!

Anonymous

[blinddog]

Heres a real head scratcher that i found, thought some of you might like it.
www.freeamericanunderground.com, click on 911 military industrial complex. hope this kid is full of hooy.

[10-x]

Wanna bet we will be sorry the patriot act passed?

[Junior1942]

Wanna bet we will be sorry the patriot act passed?We already are, most of us anyway. I'll bet you my favorite rifle that "their" computers search for key words on every gun forum on the net. I'll bet "they" also monitor every phone call from and to the more radical forum members. Think about that if you're on a forum with vocal neo-Nazi members.

PS: if you'll notice, there's two key words in this post. That guarantees that a "them" person will read it, not just a computer.

[Boz330]

Boer:

Remember the NAIS (National Animal Identification System) flap a couple of years back? Register all your animals (even goldfish, it was proposed at one time); implant a $10 micro-chip for ID; file a report within 48 hours every time the animal crosses a property line; etc., etc.. That one was laughed to death, fortunately - but "THEY" are still trying. We quit the local Farmers Market scene five years back, after they imposed three tiers of regulation and inspection - local, County and State: report all vegetables etc., brought to market, all taken back unsold, reconcile with log of sales, fines if they didn't match, yatata, yatata. A neighbor is setting up a guerilla Farmer's Market at Navarro, two miles away; we won't register, report or notify NOBODY, NOHOW!!

Anonymous

They should do that to the illegals when they cross the border.
The other crap is so you don't cheat the gov out of there 75%.

Bob

[Newtire]

When it rains, it pours...I just got done watching a rather controversial film on the net called "Zeitgeist" where they talk about how government, big business & religion all have things in common. Then last weekend, we rented the movie "Network" ("I'm mad as hell and am not going to take this anymore"). The writer of that movie way back then predicted all of the events that are happening today.

Funny to me how just liking shooting makes me a republican? I know that I am a veteran who got screwed out of G.I. medical benefits and am watching our great government trying to take away more benefits from the G.I.'s. Something fishy going on here...

It don't really seem much like Mom & apple pie like some folks would have us believe now does it?

[blinddog]

Hey, how about this. if you sighn up for welfare you get free member ship to NRA.

[blinddog]

its still mom and apple pie, the mom is paris hilton wanabe or prozaced out of this world. Apple pie come from mcdonalds or wal-mart backrey.

[Scrounger]

WalMart apple pie is crappy, just like the ones you get in the supermarkets. But the apple pies from Sam's Club are the best I've ever eaten. Same company, different pie---Go figure.

[blinddog]

paycheck stub is voter regestration.
number of years worked = number of times you can vote.
minemum wage for congress and president.
no raises unless voted on by public.
cannot run for more than one term unless voters write them in.
can have no ties with bidding corperations for goverment contracts.
no severance package, serv your time in office then get back to the work force.
popular vote (not electoral) elects to office.
any violation of constitution is grounds for dismissal,and jail time.
any missconduct in office is grounds for jail time.

This can be fine tuned, but it would be nice for the working man to be in charge for a change!!!!

[Ricochet]

It seems if i recall right the first deisel engiens ran bio fuel, that is what they was desghined to run on.
Actually, Diesel first used gasoline. They did later advertise some of the large low speed Diesels with air injection as being able to use a wide variety of fuels including low grade petroleum distillates, crude oils and vegetable oils. They never got the problems with the powdered coal idea worked out, and the low grade petroleum and vegetable oils became a lot more problematic when they went to "solid" injection and higher engine speeds. The vegetable oils were never used as fuel on a large scale, being intended for special situations where those were locally available cheaper than petroleum in large quantity. (Oil producing plantations and such.)

[Boerrancher]

Blinddog, there is a much simpler way, it is called go back to the original format of the Constitution, before we allowed these politicians to f*** it up so badly over the last 100 years. The founding fathers knew what could happen and wrote the Constitution in such a manner to prevent what we see today, but over the last 100 years, the constitution has been tampered with so much that it doesn't resemble the document that our founding fathers started with. The politicians who pushed for the changes to the constitution only insured that we would continue to have a two party system and vote for the lesser of two evils, thus ensuring they (the parties) would hold power for ever. If you doubt this pick up a copy of the constitution and read it as it was originally written. A good copy will highlight all of the changes that have been made do to various acts and amendments, and yes congress has changed the constitution with out public consent several times. Just look at the Federal Reserve act of 1913 I believe was the year.

Best wishes,

Joe

[bruce drake]

Blinddog, I agree with some of what you are saying but there could be a few more thoughts that could be added to this.

paycheck stub is voter registration. - (what about retirees and those certified medically unable to work - Joe is one I want to vote despite his disability. He's got a brain to think about things.)number of years worked = number of times you can vote. (One man - one vote. If you are a superdelegate and you pick your Parties nominee, you already voted.) minimum wage for congress and president. (No - but 70K is more than enough to live on. Still cheaper than the current 210K that Bubba signed into law when he was President.)
no raises unless voted on by public. (+1 - make it part of the general election. don't let those who stand to receive the raise vote for it.)cannot run for more than one term unless voters write them in. (I think two terms is enough. This way we have some diplomatic and economic knowledge to pass between incoming congressmen and senators. Keep the current term lengths for Representatives but shorten the Senators to just 4 years each.)
can have no ties with bidding corporations for government contracts. (+1 no disagreement with this one.)
no severance package, serv your time in office then get back to the work force. (+1 no career politicians)popular vote (not electoral) elects to office. (NO - Remember, if this true, than populous states like California and New York will have an even more inordinate effect on the elections. If this was in place, we'd have Hillary as the democratic Nominee and potentially we would have suffered through 8 years of President Gore and his Greenpeace cronies. any violation of constitution is grounds for dismissal,and jail time. (This is already in place - we just have Justice Department officials that don't apply the law and creepy lawyers who will defend the guilty parties out of greed)any missconduct in office is grounds for jail time. (same as above)

[Junior1942]

. . . any missconduct in office is grounds for jail time. (same as above)And if a public official or anyone else purposely outs an undercover CIA agent in time of war they get hung by the neck until they're dead, dead, dead. Wait!!!! That's already a treasonal offence punishable by death!!!!

[blinddog]

I humbly stand corrected, I and agree. like i said fine tuned, im sure others will have more opinions.:drinks:

[Boerrancher]

popular vote (not electoral) elects to office. [I](NO - Remember, if this true, than populous states like California and New York will have an even more inordinate effect on the elections.

Bruce,

I am glad that there are some people who truly understand the electoral college and why the founding fathers put it in place. I just wish that others from years back would have been educated enough on the constitution and the founding fathers reasoning behind it all to have not fallen for the slick tongues of the politicians who started subverting it, ensuring that they and their parties would remain the only ones in power.

I fear that all is lost as the schools no longer teach the constitution and the intent of the founding fathers. It seems that the crap my daughters bring home is the touchy feel good, morality in generalities, the gov can fix all our problems, and no one ever fails. It seems those of us who are free thinkers and lovers of freedom are a dieing breed. It will not be long until we are gone and our children will be slaves of the Gov.

Best wishes,

Joe

[Bret4207]

And if a public official or anyone else purposely outs an undercover CIA agent in time of war they get hung by the neck until they're dead, dead, dead. Wait!!!! That's already a treasonal offence punishable by death!!!!

I agree Jr. And if Valerie had been an undercover CIA agent, if she hadn't listed herself in "Who's who" as working for the CIA and being married to Joe, if she hadn't outed herself on a number of occasions there might be a case there. Despite that I agree it should have been kept quiet, but those are the games politicians play.

[Junior1942]

I agree Jr. And if Valerie had been an undercover CIA agent, if she hadn't listed herself in "Who's who" as working for the CIA and being married to Joe, if she hadn't outed herself on a number of occasions there might be a case there. Despite that I agree it should have been kept quiet, but those are the games politicians play.Bret, the right wing spin doctors played those games in order to lessen the impact of what the White House did. Someone commited treason.

[Papa smurf]

Are any of you guys old enough to remember the big rush to Berlin near the end of WW2 by the USSR,England, and the USA? What ever happened to all the information about synthetic fuel Hitler was using ???????????

[Black Prince]

While questions continue to be raised as to whether Judge John Roberts used his influence to fiendishly give two orphans a loving home, damning new evidence has come to light concerning his children - evidence that may put the kibosh on his Supreme Court job once and for all.

The Roberts kids are no strangers to controversy. Jack Roberts, a confirmed bachelor who enjoys dancing and thinks girls are "yucky", has the I.Q. of a four year-old boy and a rap sheet a mile long. In 2003, Jack was reprimanded by a superior court judge for vandalizing the walls of a private residence with Crayola crayons. Last summer, he stole several indigenous amphibians from a natural wetland, a crime against nature for which he has yet to be held accountable. His childlike demeanor and bizarre behavior have frustrated reporters for weeks. When pressed for details on his father's opinions concerning Roe V. Wade, it's not unusual for Jack to burst into giggles and spin around in circles until he falls down.

If Jack Roberts seems to revel in media attention, then his sister, Jane, shuns it. Living a life shrouded in mystery, Jane was rumored to be dating Tom Cruise - but it's widely suspected that the girl with the pageboy haircut "plays for the other team", if you know what I mean. While John Edwards has yet to officially acknowledge her as a lesbian, Jane is rarely seen without another woman at her side. Her dowdy style of dress and lack of frequent abortions have raised more than a few eyebrows. And like brother Jack, her mental instability is a thing of record. Prone to sudden emotional outburts and crying fits over trivialities, Jane is often seen talking to small plastic replicas of human babies, and her addiction to paste has been the talk of the tabloids for years.

If the behavior of one's children is any indication of how a man writes new laws, then I fear for an America with John Roberts on the bench. Sadly, it now it seems that Roberts' children can add treason to their long list of scandals. According to eyewitness accounts from MoveOn.org and NARAL spokespersons, the Roberts children leaked the identity of super-duper top secret agent Valerie Plame to Robert Novak, a Republican operative and closet homosexual. Plied with ice cream and a trip to Disneyworld by the diabolical and queer-as-a-three-dollar-bill Karl Rove, Jack and Jane Roberts had no qualms about destroying the life of an American hero and condemning her husband to an endless succession of lucrative book deals.

As new, more disturbing allegations spring forth from the asses of New York Times editors every day, one must wonder if the flamboyantly gay John Roberts is fit to sit on the Supreme Court.

His children certainly aren't.

[bruce drake]

BP,

If that doesn't start heads a spinning.....

[Boerrancher]

Someone commited treason.

I must agree someone committed Treason. Here is the list.

Sen Ted Kennedy: initially tried back door deals with the Soviets durring the early years of the Reagan Admin.

Sen John Kerry: Lied in testimonies to congress about the Vietnam War and the actions of US Troops.

Sen Dick Durban: Constantly has given aid to our enemy's by his public outbursts against the war in Iraq. (There is a difference between being against the war and publicly rallying against your country and using your political office to do so)

Rep John Murtha: Giving aid and comfort to the enemy by calling US troops murders and thugs.

Nancy Pelosi: For visiting with Syrian leaders and acting as if she has any diplomatic status for representing the United States.

The list goes on and on but I don't feel like typing any more, but I think most of you will see the pattern.

Junior, I love you man, but I just don't see how someone who is as smart as you are, loves to shoot and play with guns as much as you do, can support the Democratic Party. I am a registered Dem, but there have been very few Dem candidates that I have voted for. Most have been locals. The Dem party has been taken over by nutjobs and moonbats, and until they kick out those people and become more mainstream I will never vote for a Dem for national office. I hate the Republican Party almost as bad, and vote for them a bit more than the Dems, but most often I pull the lever for the candidates with the (L) beside them, as they seem to stand for less Gov, lower spending, and more individual freedoms.

Best wishes from the Boer Ranch and Vote for Barr in 08,

Joe

[Bret4207]

Bret, the right wing spin doctors played those games in order to lessen the impact of what the White House did. Someone commited treason.

Junior- The left wing spin doctors played those games in order to increase the impact of what Bob Novak did. Someone should have kept her mouth shut.

I'm with Boer Rancher- I love ya man, but I can't figure you out!

[Junior1942]

Guys, it's easy to figure me out. I'm worried about this country's slide toward Fascism. The "military-industrial complex" Eisenhower warned us about is now the military-industrial-insurance-medical-religious complex.

How can you guys support a party who, just a few days ago, refused to tax the oil companys' obsene profits? The party you guys support also refused to cut the generous tax breaks we give to the same oil companies. Next time you spend $50 on gasoline ask yourself which party supports average Americans and which party supports billionaires.

[Boerrancher]

How can you guys support a party who, just a few days ago, refused to tax the oil companys' obsene profits? The party you guys support also refused to cut the generous tax breaks we give to the same oil companies. Next time you spend $50 on gasoline ask yourself which party supports average Americans and which party supports billionaires.

Junior I don't really. But I do realize that it is easier to get a job from a rich man than it is a poor one. If it were up to me everyone in Fed office, and the various Dept.s, agencies, and the like would all be taken out and executed. There is no excuse for this monster we have allowed them to create, called the Federal Government. Too much power has been taken form the states. The Federal Gov has their hands in too many peoples pies.

Congress gets away with much of the crap they put out, by claiming they have the right to do so under the constitution and the right of congress to regulate interstate commerce. How does stealing my money that I WORKED FOR, and giving it to someone who has NEVER WORKED because of a drug or alcohol problem interstate commerce? How is holding a gun to my head and making me pay for someone else's health care, or worse yet my children who are not yet old enough to work pay for your health care? This Idea of have it now and pay for it later is killing us as a nation. Why should my kids pay for an 80 year olds prescription ? It just doesn't seem right for our children and grandchildren to have to pay down this huge debt cause by entitlements.

Don't go telling me Social Security and Medicare is a Contract with the American public. I didn't get to vote on it, I didn't have a say so in it. If I had what the Gove stole from me in SSI and Med taxes invested in an IRA, I could be independently wealthy right now. As it stands I struggle to make ends meet, and if I was to apply for Social Security Disability, and was lucky to get it it would only be a few hundred dollars, not very good considering they stole thousands from me yearly.

Best wishes from the Boer Ranch and vote for Barr in 08,

Joe

[Scrounger]

You're spinning your wheels, Junior. Even after they lose their jobs, their homes, the important things in their life, they'll still buy the spin that it's the fault of the illegals, the hated liberals, whichever religion they don't like, anybody but the guys with all the money....

[Junior1942]

You're right, Scrounger. The next time these guys buy a tank of gasoline I wish they'd ask themselves if Exxon-Mobil needs a tax increase or a tax break. Hint: they're getting one of the two.

[Boerrancher]

You're spinning your wheels, Junior. Even after they lose their jobs, their homes, the important things in their life, they'll still buy the spin that it's the fault of the illegals, the hated liberals, whichever religion they don't like, anybody but the guys with all the money....

No Scrounger, I get it. The problem is I get it and understand it more than what You and Junior do, in the fact that both of the parties are in power and have been in power for 100+ years, and only do things to keep themselves in power. IF you think that either party gives a crap if you loose your job, your home, or anything else you are just plain delusional. They only care about their own power and the money that put them there.

They have diluted the constitution,and perverted history with public education. With excess regulation, excess taxation, and a general position that Americans can't be successful with out Gov help, they have broken the free spirit of most Americans, as is evident of most everyone to rush in and vote for the lesser of two evils. There is no lesser they are both evil and both are backed by the big money of the world. IF you doubt this look at little Barry Obama's contributors to his finances, the same with Hillary, Al Gore, John Kerry, or any of the Republicans. You will find much of the Big Corporate money going equally to both parties, so don't tell me that one or the other supports the little guy. That is a bunch of crap and you know it.

It is all about control of the population, and just like my quote, these tyrants are using the force of the people to slowly enslave you. I hope you all like turning in your guns, having your fuel and food rationed, and the Gov constantly looking over your shoulder. That is the direction we are headed as long as we maintain the status quo. You say, "It will never happen here not in these United States," but I promise you this, Your Great grandparents said the same thing about things like the patriot act, all of the Social free give away programs the Gov has, at the working man's expense, and the 1968 gun control act. An old man once told my you can pull anything over on the American people, as long as you do it slow enough. Well it has been done to all of you both Reps and Dems and you never saw it coming because you were too busy playing politics.

Best Wishes from the Boer Ranch and vote for Barr in 08

Joe

[sundog]

Junior, who said any of us are supporting ANY of them? That would be an assumption on your part.

For me, I am so frustrated with what is happening I just about can't stand it. Neither McCain nor Clinton are the answer, and certainly NObama! Yet all of them are technically qualified to be president just like me and most everyone else on this board, according to the Constitution. I mentioned the corruption of power in foggy bottom earlier, and it's all about money and power and control. One way to reverse that is to put a screeching halt on the perverse, multibillion dollar lobbying industry that has grown into a cancerous giant sucking the life blood out of this country. That will work only if the American people DEMAND that their elected officials do the work of the people. Protect and defend. It does not include redistribution of wealth!

We are sorely in need of a national leader.

[sundog]

If the oil companies were paying taxes that they currently don't, that expense would just be passed along to the consumer. Price at the pump would yet go up again. Basic eco101.

[Scrounger]

I probably should not have made my previous post on this topic because I have no passion for the subject. It comes under the category of "Preferences" and include:
Democrat or Republican
Religion or Not
Boxers or Jockey Shorts
Blondes or Brunettes
Ford or Chevy
Either side can overload you with data that seems to prove they are correct so in the final analysis we have to make a decision with only gut feeling. In my own little unimportant world I can go either way on any of them and it doesn't seem to make much difference which way I went, my decision didn't condemn the rest of the world to follow. People who spend a lot of time, especially when they are young and impressionable, in an environment saturated with opinions on one side or the other, develop "faith" in that position and are unlikely to ever change it. So we have to keep in mind that while these philosophies are "only opinions", they are very strongly held and there is little profit in trying to change them. I do envy your passion and that you care enough about the rest of us to try to help guide our country in these difficult times. I have to admit that my own little life seems to furnish enough problems and decision making opportunities that I can't seem to find time or energy to worry about whether our next President will be a woman, a Negro of the Muslim faith, or a semi-senile old white man, aka "The Manchurian Candidate". Judging from the ones we've had in the last 40 or 50 years, it probably won't make much difference, we'll get through it, we'll get over it.

[sundog]

Joe, you might as well add that traitorous bitch to your list - Jane Fonda. She never should have been let back into the country.

[Scrounger]

Joe, I guess I didn't get the point I wanted across: Junior will never change his mind, nor will you, no matter what happens.

[felix]

Yeah, Corky, we used to have a national leader, but He is being thwarted at every turn by the govt's employees, most of which are all of us now one way or another. ... felix

[Bret4207]

Guys, it's easy to figure me out. I'm worried about this country's slide toward Fascism. The "military-industrial complex" Eisenhower warned us about is now the military-industrial-insurance-medical-religious complex.

How can you guys support a party who, just a few days ago, refused to tax the oil companys' obsene profits? The party you guys support also refused to cut the generous tax breaks we give to the same oil companies. Next time you spend $50 on gasoline ask yourself which party supports average Americans and which party supports billionaires.

All right, lets say we tax the living heck out of the oil companies and their obscene $.09 a gallon profit. Nine cents a gallon, that's a about the actual profit they make according to the media. Think about that nine cents. The State and Federal taxes on a gallon of gas in my State is about $.62 a gallon. Who's making the obscene profit? And where in the Costitution does it say Gov't can regulate how much profit a company or indivisual makes? Let's cap their profits, I'm sure they won't pass the costs onto the public. Then let's cap the salaries of the Executives. And the sports stars too. And what about businessmen? They make a lot of money too, let's take a bigger chunk of their money. In fact, since the median income is supposed to be about $38,000.00 a year in this country lets tax everyone who makes more than that at a higher rate! How about 60% of their gross? Is that enough? 75% maybe, they don't REALLY need all that money. And while we're at it, lets raise the minumum wage to $9.50 an hour. Then all those porr people will have more money. Wait, if $9.50 is good why not raise it to $12.50...aw heck, lets raise the minimum wage to $25.00 an hour! And we'll mandate the employer has to give them free health care and pay for their education too. That'll fix everything. And we'll pass the Cap in Trade act too. That'll only raise fuel prices $1.50-2.00 a gallon and that will encourage everyone to go buy a hybrid with whats left of their money after we tax them at 75%. And Kioto! We need to sign onto the Kioto accord so that whats left of our industry will be permanently crippled while China, India, Russia, South America and Africa continue to pollute as they wish. The we can take the obscene profits the capitalist Americans make and have the UN redistribute those dollars made on the backs of the American slave labor force and give it to the needy in the thrid world. No doubt the non-democratically elected leaders of those countries will distribute those funds to their people in an efficient and fair manner. North Korea and Myanmar for instance have an excellent record in that area. Should the cruel, rich Amerikans decide not to cooperate the Mexican Army and their sleeper agents within the USA should be to quickly defeat whats left of the Amerikan populance since they by this point have been complely disarmed by the Republicrat Congress.

Yes, guys. I can see your point now. What was I thinking?

[trooperdan]

How can you guys support a party who, just a few days ago, refused to tax the oil companys' obsene profits? The party you guys support also refused to cut the generous tax breaks we give to the same oil companies. Next time you spend $50 on gasoline ask yourself which party supports average Americans and which party supports billionaires.

Junior, I respect your opinion but I just cannot understand how you got there! :) The "plan" the Dems came out with was never intended to have a chance to pass, they didn't even want it to pass! They just wanted to be able to say, "The Republicans are in bed with big Oil".

The "plan" seems very similar to communism to me, remove any incentive for a business to excel and make a profit and make everyone on the same level regardless of effort. We've seen how well that has worked out in a few countries!

[Junior1942]

Sorry, Dan, but the Democrats PROVED that the Republicans are in bed with big oil.

[sundog]

Dang, Bret, take a deep breath.

"The first thing we do, let's kill all the lawyers." (Shakespear's "Henry VI")

Might as well get the lobbyists while we are at.

I'm kidding. You hear me? I'm kidding. It's a joke.

[sundog]

Junior, no they didn't. It's called politics for a reason.

Felix, right on! If the founders were still alive they would be turning over in their graves!

[redneckdan]

How can you guys support a party who, just a few days ago, refused to tax the oil companys' obsene profits?


What obscene profits? The oil industry makes about 25% profit...about the same as any other reasonably successful industry. It just seems like a lot of profit because the scale is so much larger. Think about it, it you got a million in your bank account......you are livin large. If BP has a million in their bank account...they're friggin screwed.

[JSnover]

It would have been a punitive tax, serving no purpose other than turning oil into Pork. And the oil companies would have passed it on to the consumers anyway.
Would the price per barrel have gone down if we gave the Fed a bigger slice?
Doubt it.

[454PB]

A little "fuel" for the fire.....

How about we start rationing?

[sundog]

yeah, and the idiotic reasoning of have a fuel tax holiday until September. Everyone gets used to a lower price, and wham. Just like a new tax. Right when families with kids are having expenses getting them back to school. Makes perfect sense to me. ....

Message to the IDIOTS in D.C. --- Which way do you want it? Huh? Y'all even got a clue?

Crickets and blank stares....

croakers, peepers, and hoot owl.

Then the litany of excuses and explanations, photo ops, press conferences, about how much they care and they know so much more about what is really going on.

Rubbish. On both sides of the aisle.

I don't know why there's even an aisle any more. Do you?

I'm beginning to think that the people who elected them are no smarter. Ahh, that would be???

"We have met the enemy, and they are us."

[Bret4207]

I'm actually seriously considering either not voting or voting for a 3rd party this fall. There's little difference between the 2 main candidates. I'm still totally p.o.'d at the McCain delegates that voted for the Huckster in Tenn or W Va- where ever it was where Romney was kicking butt. I have only slightly more confidence is McCain than Obama, which is to say almost none! And now McC is talking about Bloomberg as VP!!!!! If that ticket goes there's no way I could stomach McC.

[Boz330]

A little "fuel" for the fire.....

How about we start rationing?

They tried price controls in the 70s and all that did was restrict the flow. Rationing would just create a black market and you'd pay even more if you had to have it.
Guys no fuel no economy which means the government will have to make you cough up more.
As far as obcene profits that goes to the shareholders who pay taxes on it as well as the corporation.
The so called tax breaks that big oil gets are the same breaks that any business gets for investing in there businesses. What makes big oil ineligible, they give those same breaks to me so I can invest in my business.
The big oil companies don't have to stay in this country. Sure it is a big PIA to move but there is a point where that might be a possibilty. Then they only pay taxes on the money they make in the US and not what comes in from all over the world. That is a good plan.
I don't like paying high prices any more than the next guy but it is a free market system, Besides everything the government touches turns to you know what. All you have to do is look at what ethanol and biodiesil have done to the food markets.

Bob

[SharpsShooter]

Then the litany of excuses and explanations, photo ops, press conferences, about how much they care and they know so much more about what is really going on.

Rubbish. On both sides of the aisle.

I don't know why there's even an aisle any more. Do you?

I'd have to agree solidly. It apears that viable, leadership candidates are in short supply on both sides. If not for SCOTUS I wouldn't even waste the gas to drive to the polls.
Obama is not a remote choice and if Bloomberg gets in the mix, its all in the crapper.

SS

[waksupi]

Every one who believes no democrats are invested in oil, raise their hands. Any one? Any one?

[Mumblypeg]

Sundog,
If the founders of this country were still alive... they wouldn't be in their graves! Might be turning over though. I'm sorry but this is SO intertaining!

[Swagerman]

More fuel on the Democratic fire.

When Wild Bill Clinton was President, and getting his White owl smoked, you have to admit that regime taxed the hell out of us...but they got this nation pretty much out of hock during their time in office.

Then GW comes into office and decides to have a Napoleon complex, starts kicking butt left and left...him being on the right. Spends this Nations money to the point we don't have any anymore.

So GW decides to give a jump start to the economy by giving us all some cash.

My government supplement check came in the other day, was supposed to be for$1,200 as joint income money for the wife and me. The check was for $600 and a vague reason why it was not $1,200 that I still don't understand.

This money was borrowed from China, I guess it came over by Chinese junk (oriental sailboat) so this junk mail came in a little short...about $600 short.

But I have to admit, Wild Bill never gave me a damn dime, and GW did. OK GW, what did you guys do with my other $600.


Jim

[Scrounger]

Like I said before, Democrat politicians are fools and clowns, but they do less damage to the country than the crooked scoundrels the Republicans give us.

[sundog]

Mumblypeg, it was meant to be said just that way. Yankee humor.

Actually if they were still alive, they would be very old. More Yankee humor.

Jim, about those so called stimulus checks. Mrs Sundog had this figgered out several weeks ago. The goobermint is making millions off this deal with people who owe the IRS. Think about it. As for us, it's here just in time for paying quarterly estimated (what happens when you run a business), so they get it anyway. Bastidges. Ain't about helping individual citizens.

If we were to go to the fair tax, this kinda crap wouldn't be happening, like making citizens criminals when the make a mistake or are late on a tax payment. It would ALL go away, the audits, the seizures, all of it. If you wanted to tax protest, just don't buy anything. I know that I am probably beginning to sound like a broken record about this, but it would be a boon for the economy and individual Americans particularly. The whole tax setup is a sham. Only reason Congress won't do it is because the would lose far too much control over the population. Let freedom ring!

[Boz330]

[QUOTE=sundog;351140]Mumblypeg, it was meant to be said just that way. Yankee humor.

Actually if they were still alive, they would be very old. More Yankee humor.

Jim, about those so called stimulus checks. Mrs Sundog had this figgered out several weeks ago. The goobermint is making millions off this deal with people who owe the IRS. Think about it. As for us, it's here just in time for paying quarterly estimated (what happens when you run a business), so they get it anyway. Bastidges. Ain't about helping individual citizens.


Quarterlies, YEP, roger that.
Just sorry I didn't get some money into an energy mutual fund. Then I could quit work tomorrow or maybe yesterday.

Bob

[Bret4207]

More fuel on the Democratic fire.

When Wild Bill Clinton was President, and getting his White owl smoked, you have to admit that regime taxed the hell out of us...but they got this nation pretty much out of hock during their time in office.

Then GW comes into office and decides to have a Napoleon complex, starts kicking butt left and left...him being on the right. Spends this Nations money to the point we don't have any anymore.


Jim

Well, to be accurate, Clinton inherited a growing economy started by Reagan and his tax cuts that allowed for decent profits on investment. He also came along at the right time to benefit from the tech bubble which he wisely managed by staying the heck out of the way of it. Whoops! I forgot he decided to break up Microsoft which led to the bursting of the tech bubble. Way to go Bill. (I'll stick with economics and not go into his disastrous handling of the attacks on America, selling our latest missile technology to the Chinese, the myriad of illegal campaign money, etc,etc,etc. ) So after blowing the tech bubble and still being the hero he realized the press would believe whatever he said and proudly proclaimed, "We have a SURPLUS!!!" Huzzah, huzzah. Not quite Bill. What we had was a PROJECTED surplus if everything remained static, if the money kept rolling in as it was, if no new spending was approved, if no one screwed with the income or outcome of the Treasury. Then came the 2000 elections, Bill had to go and Al was cutting deals with the Soviets to keep quiet about the subs they were building in violation of a whole buncha treaties. (Forgot about that didn't ya?) As we all know GW won, (need I point out that if GW had won the popular vote and Gore the Electoral College the Dems would have been quite content with the traditional AND legal way we do things), and 7 months into his first term BLAMMO!!! The chickens came home to roost as Rev Wright says. I had high hopes for GW and think he handles Afganistan well at first. Iraq??? Given the info available at the time what else could he have done? Of course hind sight is 20/20 and there's NO WAY there was ifo we aren't privy to, right? So then GW went into over drive and started spending like a druken sailor. So sad. Of course the Dems were right there approving every cent he spent, but what do you expect?

Sad state of affairs boys. I ain't much of a Repub/Bush fan, but lets be honest about this stuff.:???:

[Swagerman]

Like that ghetto song lyrics go, "I work hard for my money, (street walker's lament)" then the gooberment screws us some more. We just a bunch of used up Ho's.

Ain't life a bitch (female dog) then you get dirt thrown in your face.

Jim

[Junior1942]

. . . .Given the info available at the time what else could he have done?
For one, GW, Cheney and Rumsfeld could have listened to the many people who said it was a bad idea.

[joeb33050]

I forgot he decided to break up Microsoft which led to the bursting of the tech bubble. Way to go Bill. (I'll stick with economics and not go into his disastrous handling of the attacks on America, selling our latest missile technology to the Chinese, the myriad of illegal campaign money, etc,etc,etc. )


So after blowing the tech bubble and still being the hero he realized the press would believe whatever he said and proudly proclaimed, "We have a SURPLUS!!!" Huzzah, huzzah. Not quite Bill. What we had was a PROJECTED surplus if everything remained static, if the money kept rolling in as it was, if no new spending was approved, if no one screwed with the income or outcome of the Treasury. ?:

Bret;
I never heard that Bill Clinton burst the tech bubble.

I looked up the surplus. This in millions of $, from the Historical Tables in the 2009 Budget, GPO.
1998 69,270
1999 125,610
2000 236,241
2001 128,236

You're wrong, Bret, and your Economics is wrong. Look it up.
joe b. WINKKKK!

[joeb33050]

Over 1999 and early 2000, the Federal Reserve had increased interest rates six times, and the runaway economy was beginning to lose speed. The dot-com bubble burst, numerically, on March 10, 2000, when the technology heavy NASDAQ Composite index[5] peaked at 5,048.62 (intra-day peak 5,132.52), more than double its value just a year before. The NASDAQ fell slightly after that, but this was attributed to correction by most market analysts; the actual reversal and subsequent bear market may have been triggered by the adverse findings of fact in the United States v. Microsoft case which was being heard in federal court. The findings, which declared Microsoft a monopoly, were widely expected in the weeks before their release on April 3.

One possible cause for the collapse of the NASDAQ (and all dotcoms) were massive, multi-billion dollar sell orders for major bellwether high tech stocks (Cisco, IBM, Dell, etc.) that happened by chance to be processed simultaneously on the Monday morning following the March 10 weekend. This selling resulted in the NASDAQ opening roughly four percentage points lower on Monday March 13 from 5,038 to 4,879—the greatest percentage 'pre-market' selloff for the entire year.

The massive initial batch of sell orders processed on Monday, March 13 triggered a chain reaction of selling that fed on itself as investors, funds, and institutions liquidated positions. In just three days the NASDAQ had lost nearly nine percent, falling from roughly 5,050 on March 10 to 4,580 on March 15.

Another reason may have been accelerated business spending in preparation for the Y2K switchover. Once New Year had passed without incident, businesses found themselves with all the equipment they needed for some time, and business spending quickly declined. This correlates quite closely to the peak of U.S. stock markets. The Dow Jones peaked on January 14, 2000 (closed at 11,722.98, with an intra-day peak of 11,750.28 and theoretical[6] peak of 11,908.50)[7] and the broader S&P 500 on March 24, 2000 (closed at 1,527.46, with an intra-day peak of 1,553.11);[8] while, even more dramatically the UK's FTSE 100 Index peaked at 6,950.60 on the last day of trading in 1999 (December 30). Hiring freezes, layoffs, and consolidations followed in several industries, especially in the dot-com sector.

The bursting of the bubble may also have been related to the poor results of Internet retailers following the 1999 Christmas season. This was the first unequivocal and public evidence that the "Get Big Fast" Internet strategy was flawed for most companies. These retailers' results were made public in March when annual and quarterly reports of public firms were released.

By 2001 the bubble was deflating at full speed. A majority of the dot-coms ceased trading after burning through their venture capital, many having never made a net profit. Investors often jokingly referred to these failed dot-coms as either "dot-bombs" or "dot-compost".

Bret;
Wikepedia ismn't as sure as you. Could you be wrong again?
joe b. Winko!!



Well, to be accurate, Clinton inherited a growing economy started by Reagan and his tax cuts that allowed for decent profits on investment. He also came along at the right time to benefit from the tech bubble which he wisely managed by staying the heck out of the way of it. Whoops! I forgot he decided to break up Microsoft which led to the bursting of the tech bubble. Way to go Bill. (I'll stick with economics and not go into his disastrous handling of the attacks on America, selling our latest missile technology to the Chinese, the myriad of illegal campaign money, etc,etc,etc. ) So after blowing the tech bubble and still being the hero he realized the press would believe whatever he said and proudly proclaimed, "We have a SURPLUS!!!" Huzzah, huzzah. Not quite Bill. What we had was a PROJECTED surplus if everything remained static, if the money kept rolling in as it was, if no new spending was approved, if no one screwed with the income or outcome of the Treasury. Then came the 2000 elections, Bill had to go and Al was cutting deals with the Soviets to keep quiet about the subs they were building in violation of a whole buncha treaties. (Forgot about that didn't ya?) As we all know GW won, (need I point out that if GW had won the popular vote and Gore the Electoral College the Dems would have been quite content with the traditional AND legal way we do things), and 7 months into his first term BLAMMO!!! The chickens came home to roost as Rev Wright says. I had high hopes for GW and think he handles Afganistan well at first. Iraq??? Given the info available at the time what else could he have done? Of course hind sight is 20/20 and there's NO WAY there was ifo we aren't privy to, right? So then GW went into over drive and started spending like a druken sailor. So sad. Of course the Dems were right there approving every cent he spent, but what do you expect?

Sad state of affairs boys. I ain't much of a Repub/Bush fan, but lets be honest about this stuff.:???:

[Bret4207]

Actually I'm right Joe. Or at least I'm far, far closer than you are. Clinton went after Microsoft and that lead to Wall Street and the zillions of formerly enthusiastic investors deciding that the tech stocks might not be a sure bet after all. That mushroomed into the bubble bursting over a period of months. Check the dates and the NASDAQ. You can clearly see the pattern. But gee, you checked the world famous for not so accurate facts Wikipedia so you must be right. Had you been watching things develop back then like I was you'd recall this without having to resort to an "iffy" source. Thats kind of like doing your own research for a book instead of mining websites for it. WINK!!!!

And you'd better go check your facts on the alleged surplus too. We never had an actual surplus in truth. We had a projected surplus through 2010 if you completely discount interest payments on the previous deficit and the National debt. Income at the Treasury exceeded spending for 4 years. Why? Clinton raised taxes on Capital gains, Social Security, 401K account, etc., and all those investors were buying stock and the tech companies were paying big taxes. But the so called surplus ignores the debt we had. It ignores all the interest on those years of deficit spending, which our hero Clinton did for 5 of his 8 years. Now I don't know how money works on your planet Joe, but here on earth if you spend more than you make for decades and then for 4 years you make more than you spend, but don't pay all that borrowed money back, we don't call that a surplus. A surplus would be all your debts paid in full and money left over.

So Joe my sharp tounged friend, you drank the Kool Aide and bought into the Washington method of modern economics. In Washington words don't mean what they do elsewhere. If I say I only want to increase my spending on a program 10% instead of 12% in Washington they say "He's cutting spending!!!" Well no, I'm not. I spending more this year than last, I'm just not spending quite as much as I thought I could for whatever reason. Both sides do it. Alan Greenspan and the Fed have led us by the nose to the precipice of economic disaster. We followed willingly because both parties said he was brilliant and could do no wrong. I believed it for years. Well, he was wrong. You can't manufacture money that has value out of thin air if there's nothing to back it. And you can't call something a surplus if you have a place for all that money to go and it's name is DEBT! Go to Walter Williams website and try and get a handle on economics before you attack me. WINKO!!!

Here's a pretty fair explanation of the 90's economy from an accredited source, rather than some guy in his mother's basement eating Ramen noodles and giving his version of "the facts".

http://www.hoover.org/publications/policyreview/3487697.html

[Bret4207]

For one, GW, Cheney and Rumsfeld could have listened to the many people who said it was a bad idea.

Junior, in 25 or 30 years there'll be a bunch of paper work declassified. Just like most of the allegation's "Tail Gunner Joe" McCarthy made the paper trail will show there was a lot we weren't told. McCarthy was right about Alger Hiss and his crowd. Bush may well have been right about Sadam and his NBC. I still remember convoy after convoy of trucks leaving the suspected NBC Sites and heading into Syria. All Sadam had to do was open his sites to inspection.

Now when all those documents are released, if I'm completely wrong and there wasn't any intel to give the President of a country that'd just been attacked cause to worry that more lives would be lost then I'll buy you a brand new RCBS bottom pour pot. Fair enough?

[sundog]

Point is, Joe, if the Fed did NOT exist (signed into law by a Prez who rued the day - Wilson) this crap would NOT be happening. Wilson was not our bestest pres neither.

[Newtire]

Guys, it's easy to figure me out. I'm worried about this country's slide toward Fascism. The "military-industrial complex" Eisenhower warned us about is now the military-industrial-insurance-medical-religious complex.

How can you guys support a party who, just a few days ago, refused to tax the oil companys' obsene profits? The party you guys support also refused to cut the generous tax breaks we give to the same oil companies. Next time you spend $50 on gasoline ask yourself which party supports average Americans and which party supports billionaires.

I'm with ya Junior...

[sundog]

Next time you spend $50 on gasoline ask yourself which party supports average Americans and which party supports billionaires. quote from someone, maybe Junior.

A: NEITHER. AND BOTH. DOES THAT EXPLAIN IT?

[joeb33050]

Actually I'm right Joe. Or at least I'm far, far closer than you are.

Thats kind of like doing your own research for a book instead of mining websites for it. WINK!!!!

And you'd better go check your facts on the alleged surplus too. We never had an actual surplus in truth. We had a projected surplus through 2010 if you completely discount interest payments on the previous deficit and the National debt. Income at the Treasury exceeded spending for 4 years.

So Joe my sharp tounged friend, you drank the Kool Aide and bought into the Washington method of modern economics. In Washington words don't mean what they do elsewhere. Go to Walter Williams website and try and get a handle on economics before you attack me. WINKO!!!

Here's a pretty fair explanation of the 90's economy from an accredited source, rather than some guy in his mother's basement eating Ramen noodles and giving his version of "the facts".

http://www.hoover.org/publications/policyreview/3487697.html

Bret, sweetie;
You're not right, you're wrong, you little winkette!

Unfortunately, I don't know everything, so I have to do research (mining websites) and getting knowledgable folks to help me out. How do you like the book?

The USA had a surplus in those years, at least according to the GPO and OMB. If, in your infinite wisdom, you choose to invent your own definition of economic terms, then you can make anything true. And you're all alone, knowing that you're right. Alone. Unless you can convince some others, of similar intelligence.

I think that I have a pretty fair grasp of Economics, I got an M.A. Econ. in 1972 and taught off and on from then until 2002 or so.

Clinton, Microsoft, dot-com bubble burst-opinions abound, if you'd like to believe Clinton is responsible, go ahead. Many people who know more about it than you-the vast majority-believe otherwise. This is like Smoot-Hawley and the depression, get into line with the drooling Conservatives.

And, of course, wink, nod!


joe b.

[joeb33050]

Point is, Joe, if the Fed did NOT exist (signed into law by a Prez who rued the day - Wilson) this crap would NOT be happening. Wilson was not our bestest pres neither.

Sundog;
I read, or tried to, Woodward's book on the Federal Reserve Bank. It was pretty clear to me, in 15 minutes or so, that Bob didn't know what he was talking about-didn't know what the Fed is or does.
I suspect that you are in the same boat.
Here are some of the things that the Fed does. Please tell me which you want the Fed to stop doing, and what outfit is going to start doing them

Inspects, destroys defective, and replaces paper money
Is the Treasury's agent for receiving and delivering cash to banks etc.
Clears about one zillion checks a day.
Manages the US debt, buying and selling debt instruments.
Sets the discount (re-discount in my youth) rate. Anyone?
Determines bank reserve requirements, and provides a visible means of verification of those balances.
Announces changes in the Fed's TARGET FEDERAL FUNDS RATE. Who knows what that means?
Anybody? Relationship to the FOMC?
Makes serious pronouncements about the economy.

Which do you want to stop? Transfer function to? Quit forever?

You should read Galbraith's last book, it's pretty clear on how effective the Fed is as controller of the economy. The Fed, and the rest of us, can't forecast the economy with any degree of accuracy; hence the Fed is in front, ostensibly leading the parade, but looking over it's shoulder to see which way to turn.

And, of course, WINK!!!

joe b.

[45 2.1]

Sundog;
I read, or tried to, Woodward's book on the Federal Reserve Bank. It was pretty clear to me, in 15 minutes or so, that Bob didn't know what he was talking about-didn't know what the Fed is or does.
I suspect that you are in the same boat.
Here are some of the things that the Fed does. Please tell me which you want the Fed to stop doing, and what outfit is going to start doing them

Inspects, destroys defective, and replaces paper money
Is the Treasury's agent for receiving and delivering cash to banks etc.
Clears about one zillion checks a day.
Manages the US debt, buying and selling debt instruments.
Sets the discount (re-discount in my youth) rate. Anyone?
Determines bank reserve requirements, and provides a visible means of verification of those balances.
Announces changes in the Fed's TARGET FEDERAL FUNDS RATE. Who knows what that means?
Anybody? Relationship to the FOMC?
Makes serious pronouncements about the economy.

Which do you want to stop? Transfer function to? Quit forever?

You should read Galbraith's last book, it's pretty clear on how effective the Fed is as controller of the economy. The Fed, and the rest of us, can't forecast the economy with any degree of accuracy; hence the Fed is in front, ostensibly leading the parade, but looking over it's shoulder to see which way to turn.

And, of course, WINK!!!

joe b.

Joe-
Since you are telling everyone about things, tell us who owns, controls and runs the Federal Reserve Bank.

[sundog]

Obviously Joe, you have bought into it. All of those functions are primary responsibility of Treasury, not a farmed out private corporation. There in lies the problem. It's a piece of U.S.'s lost sovereignty. Even Wilson regretted signing the law that made it happen. Since you like to research so well, go find the history of how it all happened. btw, it started hundreds of years before the law was signed.

[Bret4207]

Moderator hat off-


You have an MA in Economics Mr. Brennan? Good. I have a few questions you can answer for me. How can you say you have a surplus of income when all your expenses aren't accounted for in the budget? Now I had this explained to me by some people who have a "Dr." "Phd." "Distinguished Fellow at such and such a University" attached to their name, but if you have another theory that's fine by me. I thought you installed municipal furnaces for a living, but I guess we can wear two hats, I do. Maybe you can show me, and them, the error of our opinion. All this is opinion when I think about it since we all interpret things differently. But if you can show me how I'm wrong in real world figures please do. This will be my chance to have a back and forth with someone on this rather than just reading the thoughts of others. I'm just a dumb cop, enlighten me.

As for the bursting tech bubble, did you research that at all? Check the dates and the NASDAQ. Of course Clinton didn't it all by himself, he had plenty of help from lobbyists feeding him huge amounts of money to make sure he stayed out of the way. And yes, I'm sure Repubs get the same grease. It was an unwise action that led to a lack of confidence in the tech market and it's downfall over a period of months. Another case of the Federal Gov't sticking their nose in where it didn't belong and screwing things up. The bubble would have burst eventually I'm sure. But it may well have adjusted slowly without having a widespread effect as it did if it hadn't been pushed by the attack on MS. Maybe Gates should have fed the Clintons more $$$$. They took care of thier friends, as all politicians do.

Your 2nd book? Nope, haven't read it. Got the first one. Most of it was basically accurate. Still hung up on " your alloy has to be HARD!!!" I see. I don't have any need to buy a book when I can go to the people who gave you the info first hand. Hey, wait a minute You didn't plaigerize your thesis too did you?! Naw, you wouldn't do that. Forget I said anything.

So Mr. Brennan sir, can we have a polite conversation now or do you want to continue your attack? Calling people stupid (WINK!!!) tends to raise ones hackles. I've disagreed with lots of people here and we've managed to get along quite well. If you could refrain from looking down your nose at neaderthals like me we could discuss things rather than argue. I'd love to hear your version of why the Depression occured and why it lasted so long. I'm game if you are.

Mr. Politeness Moderator hat back on.

[10-x]

Well kinda of back to the subject of oil/gas..............

Thought I was smart getting up early this AM, going to wally world , buy a gift card for gas(3 cents off per gal.)

On the way in gas was $3.89.............I figured ok $3.86 with the card.........
Went inside bought the card, drove back to the pumps and GUESS WHAT????
In less than 15 minutes the price went up to $3.94!!!!!

You just can't win:confused:/

[joeb33050]

Moderator hat off-


Hey, wait a minute You didn't plaigerize your thesis too did you?! Naw, you wouldn't do that. Forget I said anything.


Bret;
You sound like Chas, another liar. Show me one example of plagiarism. One.
I'm thinking that the doughnuts got your brain.

joe b.

[joeb33050]

Joe-
Since you are telling everyone about things, tell us who owns, controls and runs the Federal Reserve Bank.

Who owns the Federal Reserve?
The Federal Reserve System is not "owned" by anyone and is not a private, profit-making institution. Instead, it is an independent entity within the government, having both public purposes and private aspects.

As the nation's central bank, the Federal Reserve derives its authority from the U.S. Congress. It is considered an independent central bank because its decisions do not have to be ratified by the President or anyone else in the executive or legislative branch of government, it does not receive funding appropriated by Congress, and the terms of the members of the Board of Governors span multiple presidential and congressional terms. However, the Federal Reserve is subject to oversight by Congress, which periodically reviews its activities and can alter its responsibilities by statute. Also, the Federal Reserve must work within the framework of the overall objectives of economic and financial policy established by the government. Therefore, the Federal Reserve can be more accurately described as "independent within the government."

The twelve regional Federal Reserve Banks, which were established by Congress as the operating arms of the nation's central banking system, are organized much like private corporations--possibly leading to some confusion about "ownership." For example, the Reserve Banks issue shares of stock to member banks. However, owning Reserve Bank stock is quite different from owning stock in a private company. The Reserve Banks are not operated for profit, and ownership of a certain amount of stock is, by law, a condition of membership in the System. The stock may not be sold, traded, or pledged as security for a loan; dividends are, by law, 6 percent per year.
__________________________________________________ ______________________
A little searching, maybe an hour of reading, will make you know more than 99.9% of the folks in the country, about the Fed.

joe b.

[joeb33050]

Obviously Joe, you have bought into it. All of those functions are primary responsibility of Treasury, not a farmed out private corporation. There in lies the problem. It's a piece of U.S.'s lost sovereignty. Even Wilson regretted signing the law that made it happen. Since you like to research so well, go find the history of how it all happened. btw, it started hundreds of years before the law was signed.


No, and no again. Those functions are the responsibility of the Fed. The Fed is not a private corporation. We were the last advanced country in the world to have a central bank.
You're confusing what is and what you want it to be. If you want to dissolve the Fed, write to your congressmen. Start a movement, talk to people, print some flyers, do some writing, mail anyone you can think of.
But first, as a responsible citizen, do some reading so you know what you're talking about.
Wink, nod, grin
joe b.

[joeb33050]

Well kinda of back to the subject of oil/gas..............

Thought I was smart getting up early this AM, going to wally world , buy a gift card for gas(3 cents off per gal.)

On the way in gas was $3.89.............I figured ok $3.86 with the card.........
Went inside bought the card, drove back to the pumps and GUESS WHAT????
In less than 15 minutes the price went up to $3.94!!!!!

You just can't win:confused:/

I like it, like the high prices-although they ain't that high. ($4 gas is arguably 30% higher in real $ than it was in 1960.)
Higher prices will make us become more efficient, stimulate innovation, become less dependant on imported oil and put us and our childern in a more sustainable world. Thirty years ago I said that it would be a smart thing to tax gas to $1 a gallon, and raise taxes on gas to mirror the inflation rate. We had the impetus to innovate and conserve then, we lost it when gas went down. Let's not lose it now. Add taxes to make gas $5 per gallon, adjust for inflation, use the tax $$ to innovate and conserve, adjust taxes to help the poor. If we don't do this or something like this, we'll be back in the SUVs again.
joe b.

[Bret4207]

Bret;
You sound like Chas, another liar. Show me one example of plagiarism. One.
I'm thinking that the doughnuts got your brain.

joe b.

Mr. Brennan sir, you started this. Now we can talk about the issue's and you can try and convince me I'm wrong or not. But we need to stop the pissing contest.

[Bret4207]

I like it, like the high prices-although they ain't that high. ($4 gas is arguably 30% higher in real $ than it was in 1960.)
Higher prices will make us become more efficient, stimulate innovation, become less dependant on imported oil and put us and our childern in a more sustainable world. Thirty years ago I said that it would be a smart thing to tax gas to $1 a gallon, and raise taxes on gas to mirror the inflation rate. We had the impetus to innovate and conserve then, we lost it when gas went down. Let's not lose it now. Add taxes to make gas $5 per gallon, adjust for inflation, use the tax $$ to innovate and conserve, adjust taxes to help the poor. If we don't do this or something like this, we'll be back in the SUVs again.
joe b.

Never mind Joe. I just realized we can't possibly "discuss" anything. My eye's are bleeding, my heads going to explode!!! Where's the duct tape........

[no_1]

Gentlemen,

I am not jumping on any bandwagon. I have mostly enjoyed this thread but when the name calling / insults started to fly I decided I would do some research. So I ask GOOGLE the question "who owns the federal reserve" and this is what I found: http://www.federalreserve.gov/generalinfo/faq/faqfrs.htm#5

All I can say is WOW. My 10 minutes of research has taught me a lot about the stuff I had to wait days to read on this thread and the people that wrote it....

I am done with this one until it gets back on the original topic.

R.



Bret;
You sound like Chas, another liar. Show me one example of plagiarism. One.
I'm thinking that the doughnuts got your brain.

joe b.

Who owns the Federal Reserve?
The Federal Reserve System is not "owned" by anyone and is not a private, profit-making institution. Instead, it is an independent entity within the government, having both public purposes and private aspects.

As the nation's central bank, the Federal Reserve derives its authority from the U.S. Congress. It is considered an independent central bank because its decisions do not have to be ratified by the President or anyone else in the executive or legislative branch of government, it does not receive funding appropriated by Congress, and the terms of the members of the Board of Governors span multiple presidential and congressional terms. However, the Federal Reserve is subject to oversight by Congress, which periodically reviews its activities and can alter its responsibilities by statute. Also, the Federal Reserve must work within the framework of the overall objectives of economic and financial policy established by the government. Therefore, the Federal Reserve can be more accurately described as "independent within the government."

The twelve regional Federal Reserve Banks, which were established by Congress as the operating arms of the nation's central banking system, are organized much like private corporations--possibly leading to some confusion about "ownership." For example, the Reserve Banks issue shares of stock to member banks. However, owning Reserve Bank stock is quite different from owning stock in a private company. The Reserve Banks are not operated for profit, and ownership of a certain amount of stock is, by law, a condition of membership in the System. The stock may not be sold, traded, or pledged as security for a loan; dividends are, by law, 6 percent per year.
__________________________________________________ ______________________
A little searching, maybe an hour of reading, will make you know more than 99.9% of the folks in the country, about the Fed.

joe b.

[45 2.1]

I like it, like the high prices-although they ain't that high. ($4 gas is arguably 30% higher in real $ than it was in 1960.)
Higher prices will make us become more efficient, stimulate innovation, become less dependant on imported oil and put us and our childern in a more sustainable world. Thirty years ago I said that it would be a smart thing to tax gas to $1 a gallon, and raise taxes on gas to mirror the inflation rate. We had the impetus to innovate and conserve then, we lost it when gas went down. Let's not lose it now. Add taxes to make gas $5 per gallon, adjust for inflation, use the tax $$ to innovate and conserve, adjust taxes to help the poor. If we don't do this or something like this, we'll be back in the SUVs again.
joe b.

I am aghast at the callous statement you've made. You have absolutely no compassion for your fellow man and the distress this is causing.

[sundog]

And what would happening with all this extra tax money the goobermint would be taking in?

Are you going to reduce some of my other taxes? Huh? Fat chance that would happen. What little bit of relief there has been under the current tax cut is gonna feel like a tax increase when it grandfathers, worse yet, when the next congress and the newly elected dem prez cut it off immediately.

Tax and spend. And borrow and spend. A system designed to make criminals of ordinary citizens!

[SharpsShooter]

I like it, like the high prices-although they ain't that high. ($4 gas is arguably 30% higher in real $ than it was in 1960.)
Higher prices will make us become more efficient, stimulate innovation, become less dependant on imported oil and put us and our childern in a more sustainable world. Thirty years ago I said that it would be a smart thing to tax gas to $1 a gallon, and raise taxes on gas to mirror the inflation rate. We had the impetus to innovate and conserve then, we lost it when gas went down. Let's not lose it now. Add taxes to make gas $5 per gallon, adjust for inflation, use the tax $$ to innovate and conserve, adjust taxes to help the poor. If we don't do this or something like this, we'll be back in the SUVs again.
joe b.

What an unbelieveable statement! The cost increase that we are suffering will tricke down to higher prices for ALL consumer products and wages will not follow to keep pace as the cost of living rises. There are people right now being forced to sell bodily fluids to afford fuel to get to work. Their other option is to put less food on the table for their kids in exchange for the fuel. I am apalled at the idea of giving the gubment another single dime. They already tax.....................

Accounts Receivable Tax
Building Permit Tax
Capital Gains Tax
CDL License Tax
Cigarette Tax
Corporate Income Tax
Court Fines (indirect taxes)
Dog License Tax
Federal Income Tax
Federal Unemployment Tax (FUTA)
Fishing License Tax
Food License Tax
Fuel Permit Tax
Gasoline Tax (42 cents per gallon)
Hunting License Tax
Inheritance Tax
Interest Expense (tax on the money)
Inventory Tax I
RS Interest Charges (tax on top of tax)
IRS Penalties (tax on top of tax)
Liquor Tax
Local Income Tax
Luxury Taxes
Marriage License Tax
Medicare Tax
Property Tax
Real Estate Tax
Recreational Vehicle Tax
Road Toll Booth Taxes
Road Usage Taxes (truckers)
Sales Taxes
School Tax
Septic Permit Tax
Service Charge Taxes
Social Security Tax
State Income Tax
State Unemployment Tax (SUTA)
Telephone Federal Excise Tax
Telephone Federal, State and Local Surcharge Taxes
Telephone Federal Universal Service Fee Tax
Telephone Minimum Usage Surcharge Tax
Telephone Recurring and Nonrecurring Charges Tax
Telephone State and Local Tax
Telephone Usage Charge Tax
Toll Bridge Taxes Toll
Tunnel Taxes
Trailer Registration
Tax Utility Taxes
Vehicle License Registration Tax
Vehicle Sales Tax
Watercraft Registration Tax
Well Permit Tax
Workers’ Compensation Tax

So we are taxed when we make money, spend money, save money, invest money -- and die. You want more???:roll:


SS

[sundog]

SS, did you mention ammo, firearms, archery equipment, and like sporting items under Pittman-Robertson @ 11% which is included in the commodity and then that tax is taxed again with sales tax.

Anyone who understands economics should also understand that this is NOT a very good system.

[Boerrancher]

This will be the last time I post on this thread as it has gone both north and south of the original topic and sadly I must say I helped it, mea culpa, and I am sorry. Back to the original topic, we are always going to have an energy crisis in this country until we get rid of the current political establishment, and get people in office who are willing to do what is best for the nation instead of themselves.

Best Wishes from the Boer Ranch and vote Barr in 08

Joe

[JSnover]

C'mon, some of the best threads are the ones that go through the looking glass....

The post regarding the price of gas isn't really that offensive to me, since I understand the point. IIRC, the cost of a gallon in 1980 - adjusted for inflation - was about $3.20. That's a lot cheaper than $4.15 but it is accurate to say the price has only gone up about 30% over the past 28 years. That's not to say I'm comfy with the current price, just that it helps to get a better perspective. I earned about $3.00 an hour in 1980.
And as far as the budget surplus went, here's how I remember it: The administration claimed to have found a reduction in the growth rate of a portion of the national debt. They projected a surplus in 10 years if everything stayed on course. That was a fantasy. It only took about 3 weeks for the White House and the media to drop the words "projected" and "in 10 years" from their statements. Hell, even the Chinese can't squeeze 10 years' worth of debt reduction into three weeks. But the democrats constructed the lie and the republicans went along with it. Seems they all had to put their differences aside in order to spend that huge pile of money, even though it never existed.

[Bret4207]

IMO the answer to certain parts of our energy problem, in rural areas anyway, lays with folks like me going to solar/hydro/wind/alternative fuels. Doesn't do a lot for my truck and getting back and forth to work today, but given time I hope to get into this stuff. If more people can do that it'll help a little. Of course if they continue to tax me to death there won't be any extra money to get into it.

[joeb33050]

I am aghast at the callous statement you've made. You have absolutely no compassion for your fellow man and the distress this is causing.

Here's some help for you.
The general consensus amongst those who know is that the world amount of oil taken from the ground either has or will soon peak. Maybe 2001, maybe 2010, but right around now.
World demand for oil is increasing dramatically.
Increasing the amount of oil removed from the ground beyond the "proper" amount per unit time DECREASES the total amount of oil that can be removed, and/or increases the removal cost per gallon.
Saudi Arabia and Iran have not and will not, it is pretty well agreed, find great quantities of oil in their countries in the future. Same for all gulf countries.
In the short time, oil/gas prices can, and I'd bet will, fall. But, the long term price picture is of increase.
Increasing the supply of oil is not simply a matter of turning the valve. Much more complex, and costs increase wicked fast.
We're NOT going to run out of oil; instead, the price will increae.
Conservation, substitution of alternatives and innovation are the immediate answer. Not the whole answer, but what we can do now.
The willingness of folks to support = pay for conservation, substitution of alternatives and innovation is driven by energy costs. Higher costs = more.
I have compassion for my grandchildren, they're the ones whose legacy we're spending-whose energy prices in 30 years we're driving up today.

There're a lot of older, retired folks here. We're the generation that had it the best, who lived highest on the hog, who earned the most real dollars, had the best stuff, went to Disney. Ask those retirees about about the young folks working for their old companies, about their pay and benefits and pensions. Think about "two-tier" pay and benefit schemes. Think about the pension plans, ex airlines, ex GM/Delphi, and what the young have to look forward to.

We, the 55+ year old folks, had the best work deal. It's over. Our lives were financed by, among other things, a national debt that's just plain crazy.

We lived in a country with crazy cheap oil/energy, paid for with the same debt. The gas/exize taxes never paid for the highways.

It's over, kids.

Is it doomsday on the horizon? No. It's a kick in the ass, a message telling us to do something. Maybe my suggestion is uncomfortable, probably not the best suggestion. But we better do something, we've had the signal. Not one thing, we need to do a lot of things.

Anyone under 60 today will tell your grandkids when gas was $5 a gallon, and they won't believe you.

By the way, Ethanol is a joke, as a partial solution-unless you're Archer Daniels Midland and their pals.

No winks, nods or grins.

joe b.

[joeb33050]

My son lives in a big house in MA, has a pool and cabana-uses the cabana year round. He has a non-vented propane/lpg stove in both the house and the cabana, with CO sensors all about.
I worried about the suffocation of the family, talked to him at great length, did a lot of research, and decided that the non-vented gas stove is perfectly safe. Bought one for a daughter, her husband installed it along with the CO sensors, and it worked fine. Paid <$250 at Home Depot.

These saved a lot of money for both families. No hot combustion products going up the chimney-no chimney. Gas burned makes CO2 as in Pepsi, and HOH as in water. The water increases the humidity in the house, making it comfortable at lower temperatures. No heating the cellar, cause the stove is in the living quarters.

For many years, many apartments in the Northeast were heated with un-vented "gas logs" in the kitchen stove, many are still in operation. We knew how to do it 100 years ago, then we forgot.

I know about the reservations that building officials have, but it's legal, even in MA.

One small step........
joe b.

[Scrounger]

In the 70s and 80s I was getting raises and cost of living increases that made price increases bearable. Now on my retirement check, and also on Social Security which I don't receive, we get a once a year Cost of Living Adjustment. Funny, no matter how much prices went up, the government said inflation never goes over 1% or 2%. Bread and most other foods, not to mention gas and electricity, have increased 50% or more in the last year or so, but those wonderful government accountants said nothing that increased in price was part of the Consumer Price Index. Wonder how that happened? I take solace in the fact that thanks to them I will take out the same amount of wealth with me when I leave as I brought in. It all works out.

[MtGun44]

The last two "oil shortages" that I lived thru ended up with crude dropping
like a rock after we started shifting to more efficient cars, trucks, furnaces,
etc.

The one difference now is - THERE ARE NO SHORTAGES. Think hard, have you
heard of even one story about somebody that can't get steel, copper, lead,
gasoline, oil, etc????? This one had me wondering. How can prices go up
without actual shortages? Made me think of the Hunt brothers trying to
corner the silver market in the late 80s - they succeeded, for a while.

It looks like the big institutional investors (State Teacher's Pension Funds,
Labor Union Pension Funds, etc, etc) which have literally BILLIONS to invest
have started putting money into commodities. This creates a virtual demand
and drives up the prices relentlessly, even without an actual shortage.

Check the attachment. Worth struggling thru, and I have done a bit of research
and it is apparently legit. Leiberman is trying to get a bill to stop big speculators.

I got this from one of our own about 2 weeks ago, so I don't claim to be any
expert - it just makes a lot of sense. Virtual demand, no actual shortages and
billions to push the prices of EVERYTHING thru the roof.

When this finally turns down, the rush to the exits will make your head spin.

A close friend is a bigtime stock broker and he says this is the real story, impossible
to guess when the downturn will start, but when it does, it will be steep.

HMMMM --- the pdf didn't upload. try this link:

http://armedservices.house.gov/pdfs/Readiness030607/Masters_Testimony030607.pdf

Bill

[45nut]

The real crisis has not yet hit here in the U.S. , but it IS on the way. Buy'em cheap and stack'em deep if you can. Story below that you will not see on your 11 o'clock news.


Gridlocked cities, empty shelves and bloodshed as fury at soaring costs spreads around the world
Last updated at 19:51pm on 12.06.08


Worldwide protests over the rising price of fuel escalated today, with the Philippines presidential palace besieged by lorries, fishermen burning their boats in Thailand, and Spanish petrol stations running dry as hauliers blockade major roads.


Violence has already claimed lives of lorry drivers on either side of the dispute, while one haulier was nearly burned to death in his cab by strikers.


Hundreds of lorries and minibuses blocked roads in Manila leading to Malacanang Palace today to demand the lifting of a 12 per cent sales tax on fuel. Petrol prices there have risen about 24 per cent this year.


http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2008/06/12/article-1025783-0194597800000578-614_468x361.jpg

Anger: Drivers take their grievances onto the streets of Manila


Traffic ground to a halt as anti-riot police halted the convoy, including about 500 tuk-tuks, Manila's three-wheeled taxis.


In Thai capital Bangkok, tens of thousands of heavy lorries are threatening to cause havoc while farmers are demonstrating and fishermen have begun burning their boats in nationwide protests against soaring prices of fuel and other essentials.


Lorry drivers' leaders warned the government that it has until next Tuesday to subsidise their fuel or face at least 100,000 vehicles rumbling into Bangkok.


A half-day strike yesterday by lorry drivers who parked their vehicles on roads across the country was only a prelude to next week's possible push into Bangkok, they said.
Finance Minister Suraphong Suebwonglee said there were plans to help reduce transport costs.


'I am not concerned about the lorry drivers' threat to strike because the government is seeking to subsidise the transport sectors as the whole,' he said.


One fishermen's group said more than half of the 50,000 fishing boats under its wing are being kept ashore because of the high cost of diesel.


Thai Airways International raised its fuel surcharges by up to 100 per cent yesterday day due to the rising cost of jet fuel.


http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2008/06/11/article-1025783-018FC1B900000578-705_468x657.jpg

World crisis: Thai truck drivers block the highway during a strike protest against high fuel prices on a highway on the outskirts of Bangkok

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2008/06/11/article-1025783-019114B900000578-626_468x476.jpg

Fury united: Activists from the Communist Party of India stop a train at Guwahati Railway Station during a protest against the hike in fuel prices today
Meanwhile opposition groups in Malaysia today vowed to push on with mass protests against a 41 per cent hike in petrol prices - despite a pledge from the Prime Minister to keep prices fixed for the rest of the year.


Malaysia is Asia's largest net oil exporter, earning £38 million a year in revenue for every 50 pence rise in crude prices. Protesters demanded to know why rising profits from oil exports were not being used as subsidies to the poor.


A march is planned tomorrow in Kuala Lumpur to the Petronas Twin Towers, headquarters of oil giant Petronas.


A million people are expected for another demonstration in the capital next month.


Police have warned they will take action against protesters, with a permit required for any gatherings of more than four people.


Malaysia followed India, Indonesia, Taiwan and Sri Lanka by raising pump prices last week.


On Monday, Nepal became the latest Asian nation to rise prices to stem losses of a state firm.


Also in Asia, South Korean lorry drivers voted to strike on Monday, ignoring a £5 billion government aid package designed to cushion the impact of fuel price rises.

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2008/06/12/article-1025783-01923D2A00000578-668_468x351.jpg

A protesting farmer throws produce at riot police in Almeria, southern Spain


http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2008/06/12/article-1025783-0191D4E100000578-191_468x286.jpg

A shopper picks out the few remaining oranges at a supermarket in Madrid as shortages begin to bite

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2008/06/11/article-1025783-0191301E00000578-299_468x313.jpg

Fuel anger: An injured farmer kneels in front of riot police during clashes between fuel-protest farmers and riot police in Almeria

In Spain, hauliers' unions vowed to press on with protests, rejecting measures to end the three-day nationwide protests over rising fuel prices.


In San Isidro, near Alicante, a lorry driver is being treated for serious burns after narrowly escaping an attempt by strikers to burn him alive in his cab. Fire destroyed four trucks and damaged a fifth at the industrial park.


The incident, being investigated by police, followed the death near Granada on Tuesday of a picketing haulier hit by a lorry.


Some petrol stations in Madrid and Catalonia have run dry, supermarkets are reporting panic buying and highways around the country have been clogged by slow-moving or parked trucks.


Car manufacturers warned that if the stoppage continues the entire industry will grind to a halt because parts are not reaching factories.

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2008/06/12/article-1025783-0192658300000578-777_468x286.jpg

Mourners in Peligros, Granada, carry the coffin of Julio Cervilla Sojo, the Spanish picket who died on Tuesday after being knocked down by a lorry driver

Lorries driving at low speed jammed access roads around Madrid, Valencia and Murcia, while sea links between the Balearic Islands and the Spanish mainland were cancelled due to lack of fuel.


The action has caused disruption for tens of thousands of British holidaymakers in Spain.


But police yesterday re-established traffic into France at the border post of La Jonquera, where more than 3,000 lorries had been barred entry by pickets.


In all, 51 people have been arrested since the strike started, and police vehicles have escorted nearly 3,000 lorries.

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2008/06/11/article-1025783-01910CBA00000578-790_468x269.jpg

Clashes: Spanish police arrive to break up a picket line by striking Spanish truckers in Iznalloz, near Granada


The strikers - self-employed drivers who represent an estimated 20 per cent of Spain's haulage industry - say big companies can cope better with fuel price increases by lowering their rates to land more jobs.


Infrastructure Minister Magdalena Alvarez has rejected the hauliers' demand for a minimum price for their services, describing it as illegal in a market economy.


The strike is the most serious labour unrest that Prime Minister Jose Luis Rodriguez Zapatero has faced since he came to power in March 2004.


Spanish fishermen have also been on strike since May 30 to protest against rising fuel costs, and 85 per cent of the fleet is now moored.






At least 50 people, nearly half of them police officers, were slightly injured in clashes during a fishermen's demonstration in Seville and one involving farmers in Almeria.


Spain is also struggling with an economic slowdown after a decade-long boom in the property market came to a halt.


Shortages are also beginning to bite in neighbouring Portugal, where retailers have said food stocks at supermarkets are beginning to run out, and several petrol stations in Lisbon ran dry yesterday.


Portuguese farmers said they would have to throw away 660,000 gallons of fresh milk by the end of the day unless the protest ended because they had run out of storage capacity.



A striker died as he tried to stop a truck on a road north of the capital.


Its main Portela airport diverted airlines to other airfields to refuel, saying it could supply only emergency, military and state flights. Some flights were delayed but none were cancelled.


In the Netherlands, lorry drivers said they would limit speed to 30mph on a number of Dutch roads today in protest at calls for a diesel excise duty.


They also want a system to stabilise diesel prices by lowering duties when oil prices rise and raising them when they fall.


http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/article-23494001-details/Riot+police+go+in+to+break+up+Spanish+truckers'+fu el+protests+as+fury+over+spiralling+costs+spreads+ around+the+world/article.do

[MT Gianni]

My son lives in a big house in MA, has a pool and cabana-uses the cabana year round. He has a non-vented propane/lpg stove in both the house and the cabana, with CO sensors all about.
I worried about the suffocation of the family, talked to him at great length, did a lot of research, and decided that the non-vented gas stove is perfectly safe. Bought one for a daughter, her husband installed it along with the CO sensors, and it worked fine. Paid <$250 at Home Depot.

These saved a lot of money for both families. No hot combustion products going up the chimney-no chimney. Gas burned makes CO2 as in Pepsi, and HOH as in water. The water increases the humidity in the house, making it comfortable at lower temperatures. No heating the cellar, cause the stove is in the living quarters.

For many years, many apartments in the Northeast were heated with un-vented "gas logs" in the kitchen stove, many are still in operation. We knew how to do it 100 years ago, then we forgot.

I know about the reservations that building officials have, but it's legal, even in MA.

One small step........
joe b.

Currently illegal in MT. All directions I have read require a permanently open 10"x12" free air opening directly open to the outdoors. Did your kids cut a 12"x14" hole in the room and grill it? How does it heat with the room that open? As much as the Co it is the moisture that needs to be addressed. It averages 1 gallon H20 per 100,000 btu.
Gianni

[VintageRifle]

I personally do not care what someone paid for gas back in 1960 or 1980, or even 1993. Why, I didn't start driving until 1994. This means that today I am paying more for gas than at any other time since I started driving and buying fuel.

Gas was about a $1 and I remember it being under $0.99 many times.

Since 1994 gas has gone from $1.00/gal to $4/gal. This is a big chunk of change. A vehicle that once cost $20.00 to fill up now costs $80.00 to fill up.

I heard about cost of living raises. I have gotten a few of those over the last 8 years. I doubt I will be getting one this year as sales have bottomed out where I work. My wife got a pay decrease last year due to falling business where she worked.

[JSnover]

The reason it matters is because you can't compare 1994 dollars with