Casting with the Lyman 358-439 HP and LOW Velocity

[OS OK]

Objective...to cast a HP round soft enough to mushroom at low velocity. This is about having a .38 Special cartridge that would more likely than not stay within a perp and not pass through into another room in the house and possibly harm an innocent person. A cartridge capable of being fired from a snubby and delivering all its energy by completely mushrooming.

Here I just received a new/used Lee 10# bottom pour from one of our members and thought I'd use it exclusively for soft lead blends. I built a stand for it and the 20# with slide out trays underneath, one for sprue cuts and the other for droppings casts.
The other thing to note here is that I've found that a large hex nut on the hotplate will keep the pin and the mold at 400-450* and they cast perfectly from generally the 2'nd pour.


178592
Here I'm showing the mold open [too soon I might add, see the smear on the boolit base?] but am emphasizing that I use the pressure pour method. This mold is so small that if I don't pressure pour I get lead all over the place. My objective is to get hot melted lead into the cavity as fast as possible to avoid voids and wrinkles.



178594
The load was 4.0g. of Bullseye under this SWC-HP at 166g. This mix of pewter sweetened SOWW [stick-on wheel weights] measures today [24 hours after casting and PC'ing them on the same day] at 7.4 BHN and I would imagine that they will increase to about 8.2 in 48 hours. That I would imagine is soft enough however after testing them on the chrony at 725 FPS avg., I still get mixed results in the water test pipe I shoot them into.
The middle mushroom is where I'd like to stay but I've got to modify something here to make them consistently open up...2 of them didn't want to comply.

Options...​are to load up to maximum here at 4.2g. of Bullseye and increase the velocity a bit but I hate operating on the ragged edge of a max load. Possibly use another powder? Remember I'm casting these exclusively for a little snubby and that's why I chose the Bullseye, pretty quick powder.

Of course I might not be seeing the forest for the trees here so I'm asking your inputs...what do you fellas think?


178593

[fecmech]

I would cast straight lead and use the 4.2 BE load or the +P Unique load. The factory +P SWCHP loads sure look like pure lead to me. It's not like you're going to run a 1000 of these through your gun plinking. If you want to go crazy practicing back the load down a bit for that.

PS. I would stay away from SOWW for carry purposes and get some pure lead. I know SOWW are very soft but the QC for WW's is not too strict. I would have way more confidence in one of those plumber pigs of lead than SOWW's.

[shoot-n-lead]

That looks pretty good to me.

Great expansion on low velocity.

Matter of fact, I am about to embark on such an endeavor with the .357mag soft nose 160gr WFN...I want them to expand "reliably" at 1100fps. As I type this, I am awaiting delivery on my 10lb pot that will be used for my experimenting with this...thought it would be here today, but no joy, on that.

[OS OK]

178608
It's interesting how a small difference in the BHN value can make such a big difference in expansion. These were shot the day before with the same basic mix but mixed at 9.4 BHN [a bit richer in pewter] and same powder load...look how pitiful these expansions were yet such a small difference in BHN. Some out here don't think you can even shoot this soft of lead without barrell leading.

shoot-n-lead, I would imagine what you'll find success with is about 10 bhn, possibly less...they oughta end up looking like little vienna sausages when they pile into something.

fecmech...I may just end up with the 4.2g. load as my book allows 4.5g. as the max on a +P of 168g. I'm not making plinkers and don't expect to make a ton of these because they are special purpose.
Next I'll work up a load for my snubby .357" and for that revolver I'll hop them up quite a bit...it ain't a house gun.

[dubber123]

Pre-plug the cavity with paraffin or boolit lube. HP's work off hydraulic pressure. Plug them with something that flows, and it makes them work much more consistently. Your load is well on the wheezy side, even for a 1-7/8" snub. Powder is cheap in this application. :)

[dubber123]

Pre-plug the cavity with paraffin or boolit lube. HP's work off hydraulic pressure. Plug them with something that flows, and it makes them work much more consistently. Your load is well on the wheezy side, even for a 1-7/8" snub. Powder is cheap in this application. :)http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/hh83/dubber123/IMG_3149.jpg (http://s254.photobucket.com/user/dubber123/media/IMG_3149.jpg.html)

[OS OK]

dubber123...are these examples of the plugged variety...if so, how fast and what was the lead mix or BHN?

[kbstenberg]

OSOK I am starting on the same path but with a 44

[dubber123]

dubber123...are these examples of the plugged variety...if so, how fast and what was the lead mix or BHN?

Pre plugged with LBT Blue Soft boolit lube. (I had some laying around). Alloy was 50% WW, 50% Pb, air cooled, I believe the BHN is 9. Velocity of those was 850 fps. from a S&W mod 60, 1-7/8" barrel. These were fired through 4 layers of denim into water and wood respectively. HP's without the pre-plug trick often clogged with denim or wood fibers and wouldn't expand. The pre-plugged ones worked every time for me. I never tried them below 850 fps. though.

[OS OK]

OSOK I am starting on the same path but with a 44

I hope some of the info here helps you. Feel free to post your results here if you choose not to start a new post.

[[dubber123...
Pre plugged with LBT Blue Soft boolit lube. (I had some laying around). Alloy was 50% WW, 50% Pb, air cooled, I believe the BHN is 9. Velocity of those was 850 fps. from a S&W mod 60, 1-7/8" barrel. These were fired through 4 layers of denim into water and wood respectively. HP's without the pre-plug trick often clogged with denim or wood fibers and wouldn't expand. The pre-plugged ones worked every time for me. I never tried them below 850 fps. though.]]

I think I'll try your way too, I can put denim layers on the front of the water pipe I shoot into...thanks for your comments dub.

[shoot-n-lead]

Not to hi-jack your thread...but I am going to try my project with binary bullets with a near pure lead nose, first. If that is a failure, I will try the HP's.

I will be following this thread...as I have already learned from it.

Thanks for posting your results and progress.

[Forrest r]

FWIW:

I'd skip the pewter and try plain soww's 1st.
I've done allot of testing of different hp's/calibers in either short bbl'd pistols/revolvers or slow moving bullets from calibers like the 45acp. Basically calibers like the 38spl snubnoses, 9mm (3" bbl), 44spl snubnoses & 45acps with a wide range of bullets/bullet weights doing 750fps to 1000fps+.
I've always started with this simple formula, 1bhn ='s 1000fps. OR:
700fps ='s 7bhn
800fps ='s 8bhn
900fps ='s 9bhn
etc.

I also try to keep the alloy being used for the hp's with these slow moving bullets a simple lead & tin mix. Try to keep atimony out of the alloy, it's makes the bullet too hard/brittle.
Not sure if this will help or not, but a couple weeks back I retested a bunch of 38spl p+ loads in a 2" bbl'd 38spl. I've gotten several new molds since the last time I tested p+ loads in a snubnosed revolver (around 2000/2001???). Anyway I wanted to also look at hb bullets. The fbi used to go with a 158gr hb hp swc, their thinking was the hb would prove faster velocities and be more consistent in a wider range of firearms. So I included in my testing a 358431 (lymans hb version of the 358429) & a raphine rnfp that is a hb mold. I used a forster hp tool to put hp's in the raphine hb rnfp and the 358431 hb swc. I used the standard round/ball hb pin for the 358431. From past experience I knew that the round hb pins made the bullets poor performers. A cone shaped hb pin creates a more efficient hb and the end result is higher velocities from the cone shape than their round counterparts. I just haven't gotten around to making a cone shaped hb pin for 1 of my 358431 molds yet. Anyway the 358431 with the round shaped hb was terrible compared to the raphine bullet. Both bullets perfromed equally well with powders that push (unique/2400) rather then a sharp crack like pp. Both the raphine and the 358431 had a 5gr cupped hp cut into them meaning I took 5gr out of each bullet by hp'ing them.

I used 10 different hp bullets in these tests, 6 of them are traditional cast hp's, 1 of them is a cast 148gr hbwc turn backwards to make a huge hp, 2 of them are cast hb bullets that I hp'd with a forster hp tool & 1 of them is a swaged 150gr hp made from a lead core and a 380acp case as a jacket.

I used 10-shot strings for each bullet. Then I took those #'s from the 10-shot strings and added then up to get a 100-shot string for that powder.

4.4gr of bullseye/801fps average for a 100-shot string using 10 different bullets
h&g #51 146gr swchp 807fps
Cramer #25 (hunter) 158gr rnhp 800fps
Cramer #26 150gr swchp 797fps
358439 156gr swchp 792fps
358156 148gr gc swchp 822fps
Mihec 640 158gr rnfphp 802fps
Mihec 148gr hbwc backwards crimped in lube groove 796fps
150gr jacketed hp (xtp profile) made from 380acp cases 817fps
358431 145gr hbswchp 770fps
Raphine 145gr hbrnfp 803fps

5.5gr of unique/833 average for a 100-shot string using 10 different bullets
h&g #51 146gr swchp 828fps
Cramer #25 (hunter) 158gr rnhp 830fps
Cramer #26 150gr swchp 846fps
358439 156gr swchp 818fps
358156 148gr gc swchp 847fps
Mihec 640 158gr rnfphp 838fps
Mihec 148gr hbwc backwards crimped in lube groove 845fps
150gr jacketed hp (xtp profile) made from 380acp cases 835fps
358431 145gr hbswchp 814fps
Raphine 145gr hbrnfp 827fps

5.7gr be-86/845fps average for a 100-shot string using 10 different bullet
h&g #51 146gr swchp 848fps
Cramer #25 (hunter) 158gr rnhp 836fps
Cramer #26 150gr swchp 863fps
358439 156gr swchp 852fps
358156 148gr gc swchp 848fps
Mihec 640 158gr rnfphp 844fps
Mihec 148gr hbwc backwards crimped in lube groove 846fps
150gr jacketed hp (xtp profile) made from 380acp cases 846fps
358431 145gr hbswchp 827fps
Raphine 145gr hbrnfp 841fps

11.0gr of 2400/882fps average for a 100-shot string using 10 different bullet
h&g #51 146gr swchp 867fps
Cramer #25 (hunter) 158gr rnhp 879fps
Cramer #26 150gr swchp 868fps
358439 156gr swchp 879fps
358156 148gr gc swchp 888fps
Mihec 640 158gr rnfphp 891fps
Mihec 148gr hbwc backwards crimped in lube groove 850fps
150gr jacketed hp (xtp profile) made from 380acp cases 916fps
358431 145gr hbswchp 882fps
Raphine 145gr hbrnfp 902fps

6.2gr of power pistol/887fps average for a 100-shot string using 10 different bullet
h&g #51 146gr swchp 878fps
Cramer #25 (hunter) 158gr rnhp 895fps
Cramer #26 150gr swchp 905fps
358439 156gr swchp 873fps
358156 148gr gc swchp 900fps
Mihec 640 158gr rnfphp 889fps
Mihec 148gr hbwc backwards crimped in lube groove 884fps
150gr jacketed hp (xtp profile) made from 380acp cases 910fps
358431 145gr hbswchp 859fps
Raphine 145gr hbrnfp 880fps

I know every firearms different, just trying to put out there what different powders will do with different bullets. The 358156 were used without a gc installed. They have always been a good solid performing bullet in the snubnosed 38spl's. As is that cramer #26, the mold I have actually is a double cavity that has 2 different sized hp pins and throws a 130gr swchp and a 150gr swchp. The cramer #26 is cramers version of the lyman 358477. I have a 358477 hp mold also, it throws a 140gr hpswc. The end result is that I have a 130gr/140gr/150gr hpswc versions of that bullet. I'm glad I did these tests, that 150gr jacketed bullet was a real eye opener.

http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t242/forrestr-photo/af7bb604-c362-4b49-80b7-cc4676d519ad_zps6wxqrard.jpg (http://s162.photobucket.com/user/forrestr-photo/media/af7bb604-c362-4b49-80b7-cc4676d519ad_zps6wxqrard.jpg.html)

A picture of some of the hp's I tested. They all opened up as they should, some did better than others. The shape of the hp has allot to do with it. The mihec 640's (green bullets top row 2nd from left) with those huge hp's will actually work with any of those loads listed above when they are cast with a 9bhn alloy. The cramer (hunter) #25 on the other hand (bottom middle) has a small hp and was designed for the high speeds of the 357mag. It will work at these lower speeds but need to be cast with pure lead and just enough tin for fillout (80 to 1/6bhn) or pure stick-on ww's (6bhn).

Anyway, get your alloy down to 7bhn/8bhn, or start with plain stick on ww's and go from there.

[Digital Dan]

OS OK, you will probably sort this out and make it go, but if not take a look at these.

http://www.hornady.com/store/38-Cal-.358-148-gr-HBWC/

Load them hollow base forward, 3.0 gr BE for starters and see where it leads. They will not exit the average perp unless you shoot 'em in the ear lobe.

[Forrest r]

OSOK I am starting on the same path but with a 44

I've owned/carried/used charter arms bulldogs for 3+ decades now. While they can shoot the heavier bullets they tend to preform best with bullets in the 180gr to 220gr range. Finely got more testing in last month for the 44spl/snubnosed revoler last month, was looking for:
A 44cal version of the "fbi" 38spl bullet.
A 44cal version of the buffalo bore "heavy 38spl p+ 1000fps" snubnosed load.

The fbi used a 158gr hb hp swc for their "fbi load", a winchester hb hp swc.
http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t242/forrestr-photo/82aebed3-109c-4e9d-9b09-2d36e8fb01c3_zpsnrgnkv9f.jpg (http://s162.photobucket.com/user/forrestr-photo/media/82aebed3-109c-4e9d-9b09-2d36e8fb01c3_zpsnrgnkv9f.jpg.html)

I used a lyman 429422 hbswc cast bullet for my tests. The lyman mold uses a round hb pin and the round hb cavity doesn't perform very well with the "snappier" powders so I made a conical/cone shaped pin for the mold instead. 2400 & unique give the bullet more of a push and powders like power pistol have a "snap/crack" to them.
http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t242/forrestr-photo/pininmold_zps9ecf3938.jpg (http://s162.photobucket.com/user/forrestr-photo/media/pininmold_zps9ecf3938.jpg.html)

I also used a Raphine 195gr rnfp hb bullet in my tests also. The raphine mold already has a cone shape hb pin. I hp'd both bullets with a forster hp'ing tool and put a 10gr cupped hp in the bullets meaning the 220gr lyman bullet now weighs 210gr and the raphine 195gr bullet now weighs 185gr. I also tested a cast 220gr hbwc turned around backwards to make a huge hp. And a traditional h&g #142, the #142 is the 44cal version of the lyman's "thompson" 358156 bullet.

I've tested loads in the snubnosed 44spl's for decades and I have yet to find anything that is better than 2400. I did 10-shot strings in the tests.

8.2gr of power pistol
429422 hb hp swc 210gr 898fps
220gr hbwc turned backwards and seated in the lube groove 885fps
h&g #142 200gr gc hpswc 890fps
Raphine 185gr hb hp rnfp 915fps

8.5gr of Unique
429422 hb hp swc 210gr 900fps
220gr hbwc turned backwards and seated in the lube groove 949fps

9.0gr of unique
h&g #142 200gr gc hpswc 970fps
Raphine 185gr hb hp rnfp 1004fps

15.5gr of 2400
429422 hb hp swc 210gr 1015fps
220gr hbwc turned backwards and seated in the lube groove 975fps

16.0gr of 2400
h&g #142 200gr gc hpswc 991fps
Raphine 185gr hb hp rnfp 1040fps

The 429422, & #142 were cast with a 9bhn/10bhn alloy. The Raphine was cast with a 15gr alloy, was casting rifle bullet and used it as a 2nd mold. While 1 cooled I'd pour the other. And of course I forgot about the hard cast bullets and used them in these tests instead of the soft alloyed bullets I have laying around. Those 220gr hbwc's were range scrap and water dropped/harder/brittle. Anyway the bullets/loaded ammo/recovered bullets.

http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t242/forrestr-photo/1c294e6c-d002-4b74-807e-5d6064902af9_zps8worlmj8.jpg (http://s162.photobucket.com/user/forrestr-photo/media/1c294e6c-d002-4b74-807e-5d6064902af9_zps8worlmj8.jpg.html)

Same 220gr hbwc, same firearm, same 2400 load, same yada-yada-yada. This time I used a 9bhn bullet.

http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t242/forrestr-photo/44hbwcaround.jpg (http://s162.photobucket.com/user/forrestr-photo/media/44hbwcaround.jpg.html)

Well there it is:
A 44cal version of the "fbi 38spl bullet" 210gr vs 158gr
A 44cal version of the 1000fps bb load 210gr vs 158gr

A good read on bullet alloy and the velocities they tested their hp bullets to get them to expand/function.
http://www.goodrichfamilyassoc.org/44_Special_Articles/44%20spl%20-%20may%201953%20american%20rifleman.pdf
Those might be 44cal bullets in the link but the same rules apply to 38spl's/45acps when it comes to bhn & velocity.

[OS OK]

http://www.goodrichfamilyassoc.org/4...20rifleman.pdf (http://www.goodrichfamilyassoc.org/44_Special_Articles/44%20spl%20-%20may%201953%20american%20rifleman.pdf) <a 'virtual HP Lead Mine' of information...

Thanks soooo much Forrest r... the information you've posted here could have taken me several pounds of lead and a pound of powder just to come close to some of these details.
The article re-posted above is a 'virtual HP Lead Mine' of information...and after reading several times, I think your 'rule of thumb' about velocity/BHN is right on the money...

I've always started with this simple formula, 1bhn ='s 100fps. OR:
700fps ='s 7bhn
800fps ='s 8bhn
900fps ='s 9bhn
etc.


I appreciate your time and effort here to expand on my thread about Hollow Points

and Digital Dan...thanks for the link to where I can find the HB-WC's but at the moment I've no use for those...I'm too wound up with these two molds I have and this learning curve.
I've heard of doing that with HB casts of varying styles but haven't done it before.

PS...to all...I screwed up my title...the mold I'm using is an Ideal 358-439, perhaps I can get a moderator to fix that?