Light rust in bore

[aarolar]

After a thorough cleaning of my hawken and letting it sit a few days I always have a slight bit of rust in the bore. My regimen includes a thorough swabbing with the breech end in a bucket of water till I get clean patches. Then I pull it out and swab it a few more times for good measure. WD40 soaking then let it drip upside down for a few then swab the excess WD out and finish with a well saturated patch of bore butter. This is after sitting a week or so after this regimen.
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[mooman76]

Some oils and solvents after sitting in the bore a few days can pull dirt and grime out of the bore. Some of them also turn brown or a rust color also and I have heard of BB doing this. I'd reoil the bore and keep checking.

[Outpost75]

Light rusting is "normal" and nothing to worry about. You can probably reduce or eliminate it by using something other than WD40 to displace residual moisture after hot water cleaning. I'm not sure if the bore butter is doing you any favors either.

A lanolin-based hair dressing will emulsify any water, protect the surface and lubricate it without using petroleum.

[aarolar]

Some oils and solvents after sitting in the bore a few days can pull dirt and grime out of the bore. Some of them also turn brown or a rust color also and I have heard of BB doing this. I'd reoil the bore and keep checking.
Ya that's what I typically do is keep checking back especially at the end of the season I just would sleep better if I could not have this happen.

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[aarolar]

Light rusting is "normal" and nothing to worry about. You can probably reduce or eliminate it by using something other than WD40 to displace residual moisture after hot water cleaning. I'm not sure if the bore butter is doing you any favors either.

A lanolin-based hair dressing will emulsify any water, protect the surface and lubricate it without using petroleum.
I kinda figured this too but I can't sleep at night thinking about rust in my bore and become obsessed with checking it.

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[triggerhappy243]

I am guessing you live in a somewhat humid climate? As your barrel is "'COOLING"' it is also developing condensation. I live in a dry climate, and also get those rusty patches..... and I also clean with hot water. Mainly because I want all the fouling to flush out of the breech end. WD-40 is "'supposed"' to displace water. That is what the "'WD"' signifies..................... yea right. WD-40 has no lasting lubricating qualities to speak of.

[FrontierMuzzleloading]

no rust should be present, especially light rust. Any rust is NOT normal.

[aarolar]

I am guessing you live in a somewhat humid climate? As your barrel is "'COOLING"' it is also developing condensation. I live in a dry climate, and also get those rusty patches..... and I also clean with hot water. Mainly because I want all the fouling to flush out of the breech end. WD-40 is "'supposed"' to displace water. That is what the "'WD"' signifies..................... yea right. WD-40 has no lasting lubricating qualities to speak of.
Muggy state of Georgia

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[bubba.50]

try replacin' the WD-40 with 91% alcohol for water removal after cleanin' followed by a few dry patches & replace the bore-butter with Birchwood-Casey Barricade for storage lubrication/bore-protection purposes.

[Outpost75]

I would concurr with the gentleman that rust is not normal in Colorado, but I can assure that it IS in the mid-Atlantic and Gulf coastal states. IF the OP lives in an urban area the normal pollutants in the air will cause corrosion even of stainless steels if left dry and unprotected.

[FrontierMuzzleloading]

then I suggest those on the oceans find an actual product that works. Rust is not normal and no gun respecting person would ever allow the slightest amount of rust on their firearms.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

The most effective thing for removal of water from the crannies of metal is heat. With a shotgun your barrel's last contact with anything aqueous should be boiling water, poured through with the barrels detached, and held in something like a twisted towel or wooden tongs so that you don't drop them. In a rifle you can probably make an extended funnel with a cartridge case. Water will give out about nine times as much heat as the same weight of steel will absorb, if the temperatures equalize. So it doesn't take much to get the barrel hot enough to evaporate itself bone-dry with only a little airflow.

My climate isn't very humid, and the nightly change in temperature isn't enough to produce much condensation. So my case may not be as much as some people's. I have never had trouble using WD40, but I hear some people have, and I'm prepared to believe that a good mineral oil or grease is more reliable. I have also heard adverse reports on 3 in 1 oil as a rust preventative. Again, sometimes it is fine, but it has been made over a long period, in many places.

I think a slightly heavier oil is less likely to be accidentally wiped off surfaces, and my favourite is car gear oil. Unlike engine oil it doesn't contain detergents etc., which might behave differently over long-term storage when cold, from what they do inside an engine hotter than boiling water.

[odfairfaxsub]

try replacin' the WD-40 with 91% alcohol for water removal after cleanin' followed by a few dry patches & replace the bore-butter with Birchwood-Casey Barricade for storage lubrication/bore-protection purposes.


I I have a can of denatured alcohol for this reason in my bench area. I use it to get moisture out, to prevent cross contamination of multiple types of solvent in bores, to clean things. Learned this doing hi voltage work for the power company. It's one of the only things you can use to get rid of 1000s of contaminants without electrical tracking and leave no residue behind

[mooman76]

WD-40 is fine for getting rid of the water and can work fine here also as a light lubricant but it is very dry here and humidity is often in single digits. WD-40 dries so it's more like a dry lubricant. If it's not working for you, then get something better like Barricade.

[Maven]

aarolar, I live in the humid Hudson Valley and will get a light amount of rust if I don't carefully clean, dry, and oil the bores of my ML's. After a thorough cleaning with your favorite BP solvent, dry the bore thoroughly, and apply a liberal amount of WD-40 downbore and with a patch soaked in it. Leave it in the bbl. overnight. After a day or two, soak a patch or two in ATF, then swab the bore with it, and rub down the rest of the exposed metal with it*. You can store the gun bore up or down, but check it periodically for signs of rust. As I said in my 1st sentence, I get very little rust using one of "evil" petrochemicals in my bbls. and no ensuing accuracy problems either. If rust does occur, it's usually due to poor cleaning, not drying the bore enough, or not using enough ATF afterward.

Hope this helps!


*Sometimes I use Marvel Mystery Oil + either WD-40 or ATF those patches.

[Outpost75]

then I suggest those on the oceans find an actual product that works. Rust is not normal and no gun respecting person would ever allow the slightest amount of rust on their firearms.

The light brown surface rust inside the bore of a black powder muzzleloader is akin to browning on the outside and does no harm. Some old timers actually felt it beneficial as with use the bore was conditioned in a manner similar to a cast iron skillet...

But as for rust being normal or not, what works for you in Colorado I guarantee does not work on the Atlantic coast.

I'm done here.

[rfd]

there should never ever be rust of any amount in a barrel or chamber or lock or anywhere on an ml. that's almost always a case of not cleaning properly and then not oiling/lubing properly, if done at all. if yer lazy about gun cleaning, yer gun and you will both pay a negligence price.

after a shooting session with a hooked breech plug flintlock's barrel, such as a hawken style, i'll pull the barrel, stick the ignition end of the barrel in a bucket of tepid, not warm or hot, water and use a patched jag to dissolve all the bp residue. only takes 4 to 6 pumps to get the tube down to gleaming metal. a scraper for the breech face, then a few more pumps of water. (note: if you have a patent breech, the breech flue needs cleaning with small diameter brush such as a .22, with patch wrapped around it - failure to do this will create mitigating rust). patched jag to dry, sloppy wet patched jag with some oil based product such as break free clp or wd-40 (never ever had a problem with good ol' wd # 40). the flint lock gets pulled and goes into a bucket of warm to hot water and brushed good, patted dry, hair dryer or heat gun to fully dry if there's no hot sun, sprayed with wd-40 and the excess patted off. i'd do the same with a cap lock. after over 4 months of storage, the barrel and lock look like new. been doing this for decades and if some of y'all think it's not good, it sure works fine for me or i'd change pronto. enjoy.

[Blammer]

wd 40 is your issue (my opine), get a good gun oil and your rust should not be an issue.

[Col4570]

Many of us here have taken to using ready mixed windscreen wash for BP bore cleaning.Followed by several dry Patches then a patch with Engine Oil.

[Maven]

Can't argue with that method, Col4570!

[Ballistics in Scotland]

there should never ever be rust of any amount in a barrel or chamber or lock or anywhere on an ml. that's almost always a case of not cleaning properly and then not oiling/lubing properly, if done at all. if yer lazy about gun cleaning, yer gun and you will both pay a negligence price.

There is truth on both sides here. A bright rust-red film after cleaning with an aqueous substance is normal and harmless. But it must on no account be left like that. Rust promotes rust, and unlike black iron oxide or the oxide film on aluminium, it can continue under what is there until it forces flakes loose. A brush or firm dry patch in the bore will remove it, but it is vital to oil the bore as soon as you see it.

[jjarrell]

try replacin' the WD-40 with 91% alcohol for water removal after cleanin' followed by a few dry patches & replace the bore-butter with Birchwood-Casey Barricade for storage lubrication/bore-protection purposes.

Bubba is spot on. I use Barricade after cleaning, in all my muzzleloader bores. Patches will come out white even after weeks of storage.

[rfd]

so many good ml cleaning component roads to take. i still prefer break free for apres shoot protection best of all.

[ShooterAZ]

I have had ML barrels "flash rust" upon pouring very hot water through the bore. Switching to just luke warm soapy water eliminated this. I will usually dry the barrel by setting it in the Arizona sun until it's nice and warm. After the barrel is completely dry, I will lightly coat the bore with rem oil, or even break free for long term storage. No more problems here. I will usually check it after a week or so just for good measure. I use 99% isopropyl alcohol to remove any oil prior to shooting it again. I hate rust!

[rfd]

i've also found -many decades ago- that hot water just promotes rust on iron and steel pretty quick if not removed asap. bp residue fouling will readily and easily dissolve in plain tepid water, so no need for hot water, or soap. this is how it was done for centuries and it still works well in this new millennium. afterwards, dry it all out, where isopropyl alky just makes that chore faster. then and oil up, most any gun oil will do just fine.

[725]

I'm with Col4570 & maven. Clean it & oil it. I've used synthetic engine oil, after drying, with great success. I generally prefer Eezox, Fluid Film, or Corrosion X as a rust preventative. For general use and frequent use, I have to clean, oil & leave wet for a couple days and then clean again and re-oil. Seems like I benefit from a double cleaning & oiling. I never have rust after the first cleaning but always do seem to get more fouling off with the second cleaning. Leaving it wet lets the oil work under anything I may have missed the first time. Good luck.

[richhodg66]

Many of us here have taken to using ready mixed windscreen wash for BP bore cleaning.Followed by several dry Patches then a patch with Engine Oil.


I've been using synthetic motor oil to wipe things down with for a while now, thought I was the only one doing it. Sure seems to work at preventing rust.

[shdwlkr]

Well I used to clean my muzzle loaders with boiling hot water and then several dry patches and finally a light coat of kroil and never had a rust problem and that was when I was in NYS and yes humid in summer and damp cold in winter. But what do I know I only did for the better part of 4 decades ymmv. Also using such hot water with just some dish soap usually dawn the barrel was usually dry by the time I was applying the kroil.

[oldred]

More than one correct way to do this and several have been mentioned already but also several wrong ways. To those who think a bit of rust is normal and harmless, consider this, the brown substance you see is iron oxide that is the residue of the rusting process, the iron from your barrel being converted into iron oxide by combining with oxygen! In other words every single time you see ANY rust in your barrel you will be looking at what was once, but no longer, part of your barrel's bore. Every single time you allow rust to form you are losing metal and eroding your bore by allowing that iron to be changed into rust and over time even very light rusting will destroy the bore! It is NOT normal or ok to allow your good bore metal to be converted into an iron oxide waste! A good cleaning with warm soapy water followed by a though drying then sealing the bore surface with a good oil to seal out oxygen from the air and you will never see rusting, it really is as simple as that and no new miraculous space age concoctions are necessary. WD40 is an excellent moisture displacer (W-ater D-isplacer 40th formula) but it is a very poor lubricant and offers very little rust protection, it is a solvent not a lubricating oil.

There are many good oils to use, of course just plain old fashioned gun oils are good ones but so is just about any motor or gear oil. My personal favorite is chainsaw bar&chain oil because it is heavy and has an additive to make it cling to the metal so it doesn't run off over time like a lot of other oils, the downside is that it requires a though solvent cleaning to completely remove before loading the first shot but it is unbeatable for long term storage.

Note, the tranny fluid that has been mentioned also works great BUT it will overtime cause metal staining from the red dyes used in it if that is of any concern.

[GoexBlackhorn]

try replacin' the WD-40 with 91% alcohol for water removal after cleanin' followed by a few dry patches & replace the bore-butter with Birchwood-Casey Barricade for storage lubrication/bore-protection purposes.
Good post.

[GoexBlackhorn]

I've been using synthetic motor oil to wipe things down with for a while now, thought I was the only one doing it. Sure seems to work at preventing rust.

Sure smells terrible too.
Lots of gun oils out there that work. Cheap too..... like Hoppes.
Personally, I use a gun cleaner and Premium oil for storage like Slip2000 EWL and Lucas Extreme Gun Oil. During hunting season I'll shoot two loads everyday and use Birchwood-Casey 2 in One Bore Scrubber to clean the bore afterwards. Then dry-patch thoroughly.

That Birchwood Casey stuff has a little bit of bore preservative / anti-rust in it. No concerns acquiring rust using it swabbing after morning and evening hunts.

[Buzzard II]

I know this is an older post, but does anyone use Kroil after cleaning? Alcohol or Ballistol used prior to shooting.

[Hossfly]

I use kroil every where, as a bore cleaner, lube for sprew screws along with candle and bees wax. What I use to store any ferrous, to stop rust of any sort here in wet Louisiana, for looong term is LPS #3. It’s nasty looking, leaves a brown coating but will keep things from rusting, all my stored dies get coated with it.

[Markopolo]

I get the same thing when I use WD 40.... Its more of a residue then rust.

[TheOutlawKid]

Id stay away from bore butter...me and everyone else i know personally has had bad luck with it, although a couple friends in the high desert swear by it. If you want a natural protectant id stick with lanolin or a lanolin based formula, if u want chemical then barricade is the easiest and best to atain. Also balistol is great...stinky...but great. But those 3...alone or in any combination will definately keep rust away. WD-40 is great...but after applying in a barrel and once its worked its magic i then wipe it off with a clean patch and then i apply barricade or balistol. Old wd-40 will gum up...but it does work great to remove moisture from all the nooks and crannies u cant get into. Trick is to wipe off the excessive wd-40 after its been applied and allowed to work for a couple mins. I had the same issue u had when i first started and used bore butter...once i removed bore butter from my routine all rust issues disappeared...and i live in very humid south texas. Hope this helps

[rfd]

bore flash rusting is typical of using hot water during cleaning or not swabbing/drying it off properly. i clean with tepid tap water only, and ballistol. nothing else is needed for ALL my guns and their bores shine mirror bright. all those commercial bore cleaning concoctions are just marketing hype of one degree or another. some "home remedy cleaners" are more harmful than good, too.

the biggest problem with cleaning any black powder gun is either ignorance or laziness. just fired barrels that aren't about to get reloaded, or after the last shot of the day is taken (particularly with muzzleloader spit patches), that bore needs swabbing and a mix of water and water soluble oil (1:6 ballistol:water "moose milk") on a sloppy wet patched jag will keep the bp residue soft until yer back at the ranch for a proper cleaning that ends for me with straight ballistol lube. i also keep that "moose milk" in a small sprayer for wetting down the lock (muzzleloader) or breech (bpcr sharps or roller). if no water soluble oil is handy, wd40 as a *temporary* fix is fine but the final lube needs to be real oil of most any kind.

[passgas55]

I will throw this out. I was and still am a believer in hotwater/soap/hotwater flush. If you buy a water soluble cutting oil and do your last hot flush with a mixture it should eliminate any flash rusting and still dry out your barrel. Then use your oil of choice.

On another note I do civil war cannon fire. At the end of the day all we do is run a worm in to remove what is left from the last shot then do a wet mop (water only) and that's it. No rust in the barrel. The barrel stays black on the inside. Shocked the **** out of me the first time I checked the barrel. I myself have two small cannons but I still do cold flushes followed by the cutting oil treatment on one of them. I used to use motor oil but I was getting a lot of black goo on my gloves. I did make a home made cannon tube and I am following just a wet mop routine. Working good so far.

[Edward]

The most effective thing for removal of water from the crannies of metal is heat. With a shotgun your barrel's last contact with anything aqueous should be boiling water, poured through with the barrels detached, and held in something like a twisted towel or wooden tongs so that you don't drop them. In a rifle you can probably make an extended funnel with a cartridge case. Water will give out about nine times as much heat as the same weight of steel will absorb, if the temperatures equalize. So it doesn't take much to get the barrel hot enough to evaporate itself bone-dry with only a little airflow.

My climate isn't very humid, and the nightly change in temperature isn't enough to produce much condensation. So my case may not be as much as some people's. I have never had trouble using WD40, but I hear some people have, and I'm prepared to believe that a good mineral oil or grease is more reliable. I have also heard adverse reports on 3 in 1 oil as a rust preventative. Again, sometimes it is fine, but it has been made over a long period, in many places.

I think a slightly heavier oil is less likely to be accidentally wiped off surfaces, and my favourite is car gear oil. Unlike engine oil it doesn't contain detergents etc., which might behave differently over long-term storage when cold, from what they do inside an engine hotter than boiling water.

I disagree /hot water will produce flash rust every time(fact) and is not needed ,cold /tepid is what is required nothing more ! After dry patching use a good BP oil or I use Ballistol and even bear oil works great and no rust ever (works for me) Ed

[rfd]

to each their own, it's all good as long as it always works. to me, even IF hot a hot water flush did not promote flash rusting, which it can and does, plain tepid tap water works extremely well, as it has done so for centuries and no need to find/make hot water. water in the tube is just to begin the real bore/rifling cleaning process that for me begins with the lock removal and cleaning as the water sits in the bore loosening the cr@p up.

*IF* i was lazy or there was no way after taking the last shot to run a sloppy moose milk (or wd40 or whatever) wet patch down the bore, and leave it there before the real cleaning takes place, then yeah, i might need hot water to hasten the baked-on bp residue getting soft. but having been there and done that too, i'm lots more careful about taking care of soft bp residue before it becomes hard and lots more of a pain to remove. ymmv.

[bob208]

I have been using hot water and wd 40 for the last 30 years with now rust problems at all. the trick is to go back and keep checking and oiling.

[waksupi]

Hot water sets fouling harder. Use room temp water, cut your cleaning time.

[fiberoptik]

Light rusting is "normal" and nothing to worry about. You can probably reduce or eliminate it by using something other than WD40 to displace residual moisture after hot water cleaning. I'm not sure if the bore butter is doing you any favors either.

A lanolin-based hair dressing will emulsify any water, protect the surface and lubricate it without using petroleum.

Sounds like Bag Balm!


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[rfd]

lanolin - mutton tallow - gato feo - mmmm, good.

[Tom W.]

Try Rem Oil rather than WD-40. If left to sit for any length of time it will turn hard, orange and difficult.

For cleaning I'll use what I learned from the NMLRA magazines, very hot water and Ivory soap, and use gauze instead of t-shirt or whatever to clean with.

[rfd]

you'd think after all these decades that the nmlra knew what they were doing.

[Black Jaque Janaviac]

So. This highly destructive light rust . . .

What exactly are those awful horrible consequences? As near as I can tell if you get light rust from time to time, your grandchildren will see the accuracy of the gun deteriorate long after your dead.

I used to get all stressed out over a little bit of rust, as shown in the picture, until I shot the gun again and found that my worries were for naught. Later I learned that barrels can be refreshed or rebored. Yes it costs anywhere from $75 to $175, but if its something you need to do after 30 years and lots of shooting.

It's not like I don't clean and oil my guns, it's just that sometimes . . . well life happens. And there have been times when I DID clean and oil my guns and what the?! There's rust in there.

The other thing I've noticed is that if you buy a factory-made gun that is blued, the bluing is inside the bore. If you buy a kit-gun, the barrel is usually in-the-white. Barrels that I've had from in-the-white are A LOT more difficult to keep from rusting. Even though I've browned those barrels, the browning solution doesn't touch the inside of the bore.

So while some guys might have a store-bought gun with a blued bore, others may have a kit-gun.

[Bazoo]

My buddy and I, having very little experience with muzzleloaders but doing some research and figuring it out ourselves do this.

we put boiling water in a bucket, put the barrel and small parts in with some dawn, then run patches on the jag drawing up the water and do that a while till the water is black. Then dump the water, making sure not to dump any of the small parts. We go through another batch of boiling water, and get it as good as we can, then we dry it and oil the bore with vegetable oil. Then we dry patch that out best we can. It holds well that way, takes an hour give or take.

[Bazoo]

Hot water sets fouling harder. Use room temp water, cut your cleaning time.

Will have to give that a try, thanks.

[Black Jaque Janaviac]

takes an hour give or take.

I wonder . . . if you're using real black powder, maybe the cleaning isn't as critical as the oiling afterwards. I.e. if it takes an hour to clean the gun (like I used to) you are more likely to not have the time to clean it right away, so there it sits. Whereas, if you just run a few wet patches followed by a dry patch or two and finally an oil - you can get 'er done in 15 minutes and your rust problems will be far less than not cleaning at all.

[OverMax]

You're on the right track with swabbing. The only addition I can suggest to your swabbing. Seeing such patches calls for a Red Brass Brush soapy scrubbing prior to storing and also remove the nipple for a couple days thus allowing better bore ventilation. Then re-installing a [lubricated thread] nipple.
I highly suggest sir.. Buy a CVA bore light or a night time fishing bobber and strip/remove its light for you're bore light purpose.

[charlie b]

FWIW, is it really rust or is it the remains of the lube in the barrel? Some lubes turn a brownish color when left to sit.

Me? I swab the bore and patent breech at the range with windex until clean. Dry with patches, then a good swab with CLP. FYI, CLP continues to clean for a few days so I will pull the rifle back out and dry patch, then CLP again. Then it stays rust free.

I run alcohol through the nipple and bore before firing to clean out the residual CLP.

[GregLaROCHE]

lanolin - mutton tallow - gato feo - mmmm, good.

I agree with you. Those natural products are the way to go. I think WD-40 is way over rated. Ballistol is a much better product for firearms.

If you want to save money on WD-40, take one part of any oil you want and add it nine parts paint thinner, put it in a spray bottle and you have a great substitute. Works great for cleaning stuff and is a heck of a lot cheaper.

[rfd]

i'll only use wd40 as a *temporary* "quick fix" for bp residue until water soluble oil and plain water are available. nothing but those two "ingredients" are needed for both fouling control and cleaning of any firearm that employs black powder propellent.

again, as in the dayze of yore where the military literally banged it into the heads of soldiers to worry more about their firearms than their lives, paying strict attention to yer bp firearm cleaning ASAP after shooting is an important key to their well being and longevity.

keeping the bp residue soft is the job of the lube and why tallows and greases were, and still are, the better patch lubes.

[megasupermagnum]

I'd just like to add that I used to use hot water, and used to get flash rusting. I never used boiling water, but our old water heater gets quite hot. On a suggestion from this forum, I've began using cold water. I fill a bucket with water that comes straight from the water well, nice and cool. I also stopped using soap, as I found it just didn't do anything for me. I've tried a follow up of Windex, and it may or may not help. What really gets mine clean is to use a smaller bore brush and turn it to clean out the chamber of the breech plug. I follow with a scrubby pipe cleaner through the fire channel, I always get a good puff of black out this way, that no amount of water pumping will ever clean. With cold water you have all the time in the world to get it dry and oiled. I wipe mine down with a cloth, run a couple dry patches down, and let it sit at least 15 minutes before oiling.


Anyway, back to the real question. I use CorriosionX for gun oil, and it seems to do a wonderful job. I would not put my trust in Bore Butter though. We get period of bad humidity, that's when everything rusts for me. My suggestion is to try a different oil.

[shdwlkr]

Well guys I use hot water and dawn to clean my muzzleloaders and have been for the better part of 40 years and have not dealt with any real rust issues and yes I use kroil, but what do I know beyond what works for me.
I would not use boiling water as the hot water gets the metal hot enough that by the time I dry the outside of the barrel dry the inside is dry YMMV
I forgot to mention I lived in NYS state for decades and now live in the western part of the country. My muzzleloaders were always of the TC variety and yes being able to remove the barrel from the firearm does make cleaning the barrel easier. I did find that moisture in your environment can present issues I don't deal with anymore.

[Black Jaque Janaviac]

There is another forum entirely dedicated to American longrifles that had a post with something that actually comes close to a scientific test of rust preventers.

From memory some of the top ones were Frog Lube, Eezox, and Birchwood-Casey's RIG. He also noted that plain ol' Hoppes #9 solvent (not the oil) did passably well, worth mentioning because it is cheap and widely available.

He really tested the rust-preventatives leaving them out in the rain and dosing them with salt. So Hoppes #9 would probably work well enough provided you aren't packing your gun in salt or throwing it in the ocean.

I will be getting some RIG or maybe Eezox to try out soon.

[megasupermagnum]

I did a test a few years ago. I screwed a number of plain washers to a board, and coated each with an oil. I then left it outside for a month. I used some bearing grease on one, that did the best. CorrosionX was a close second. Both Rem oil and Hoppe's oil (not solvent), did poor. WD-40 looked almost identical to the plain washer control. I also tried Kroil, and it was middle of the pack. Kroil is a great penetrating oil, not much for rust.

[indian joe]

Hot water sets fouling harder. Use room temp water, cut your cleaning time.

THANK YOU SIR!!!!
I have been cleaning with non heated water for years - against the wise advice of about 95% of blackpowder shooters I meet - usually have my guns put away clean while they are still foolin round with theirs - cant tell em though!

[Black Jaque Janaviac]

I'd just like to add that I used to use hot water, and used to get flash rusting.

Wow. What did you do with all those guns you supposedly ruined? Now that they're just garbage, I'll take 'em off your hands for ya. :razz:

[GregLaROCHE]

Could there be a difference in the alloys used in the steel, that causes some to rust more or less than others?

[charlie b]

I think it depends more on where you live and humidity levels as well as your water quality.

I had to use bottled water in our last house cause it was very hard out of the well. The softened water tasted like sea water there was so much salt in it.

[Walks]

No one has mentioned the 91% Rubbing Alcohol, Murphy's Oil Soap, Hydrogen Peroxide combination in equal amounts.

I've used this Mixture for 25-30yrs, never a Rust problem. By the time I've cleaned a pair of cap & ball revolvers, my hands are completely clean. I just run a patch with kroil down the bore and chambers. Then wipe it down with kroil. Same with muzzleloader rifles.

Had no rust problems in 25+yrs.

[reivertom]

After I clean it with soap and water, I dry it out and coat the bore with straight Ballistol. I have had good luck with it preventing rust....

[john.k]

As to steel types,I have always noticed that some kinds of bolts last for ages in the weather,others rust and disintegrate in a year or so.Generally the cheap hardware store type .......I am pretty certain the element in the steel causing rust is sulfur......added to some steels to make it free cutting.Adding copper to steel makes it rust resistant,with 10% copper its called "Cor-ten" weathering steel......of course adding 10% nickle and 10% chrome or more of either makes a stainless steel.,but some stainless steels do rust.

[Mr_Sheesh]

Side note - I've used RIG since the 70s on battery terminals, it does a GOOD job of preventing corrosion on those terminals. Add #0 or thicker battery cables to the starter (I like thumb sized cables here, or thicker) and your car's engine should start with just a tap of the key to "Start" instead of needing 30 seconds of grinding, if all else is set up right. (Fuel Injected engines, let the fuel pump rail come up to pressure with the key on "Run" for a few seconds first.)

[FergusonTO35]

Ever since I switched to Triple 7 I have had zero problems with rust, zero. For a quick clean after a few rounds I swab the bore with any of the commercial BP solvents and run a wire through the flash hole or breech plug to make sure it's clear. Then, dry the bore and swab again with Bore Butter. For a more thorough clean I do the same except remove the breech plug or nipple and scrub with hot water, then dry thoroughly and reassemble with anti-seize compound.

[sharps4590]

no rust should be present, especially light rust. Any rust is NOT normal.

You bet. Georgia and Colorado are identical in their heat and humidity.

I've used bore butter since it came out and have never had an problems with it. After having been in the bore, or exposed to the atmosphere, it will turn brown. I'd bet that's what you're seeing on your patch. It will protect your bore by creating a coating oxygen can't penetrate. No oxgen, no rust. Get it on too thin is what causes the difficulties.

My cleaning regimen for muzzleloaders is with boiling water, fresh off the stove. Fill the bore, let it set 5-10 minutes, repeat. Fill the barrel again and using a jag and sort of tight fitting patch, slush and flush the last fill out of the bore. Go to work with patches dipped in the formerly boiling water and a brush, shouldn't take long before everything is out of that bore. Re-boil the water and pour it through the barrel. Hold it with a towel or something because it will get hot....imagine that. When finished with that swab the bore with dry patches until none come out wet. Ok, here's what I think happens at this point. The barrle is HOT! I believe that opens and cleans all the little cracks and fissures that are in every barrel. At this point start swabbing the bore with patches swimming in bore butter. Keep them really full of lube. As the barrel cools I believe as the cracks and fissures cool and contract they push out the bore butter that was in them. When you swab the bore with another saturated patch it catches that lube and goes on to coat the bore and as it cools and dry's, it is a barrier to oxygen. A side benefit is that because bore butter will build up in the bore, by using the boiling water any that is starting to build up is melted out and you start with a clean, fresh barrel.

I might be as goofy as a pet coon but that's worked for me for 40+ years.

[FergusonTO35]

I might be as goofy as a pet coon but that's worked for me for 40+ years.

That's what counts, isn't it? I bought a few tubes of TC Natural Lube on clearance. It's blue rather than yellow, ever try it?

[GWarden]

I coat the bbl. of my ML bench rifles after cleaning with a coating of RIG. This has been the best I have found to eliminate later having the "brown" patches.
bob

[Multigunner]

Experiments run in the 1840's using lightly rusted barrels vs new highly finished barrels suggested that the fine pitting of the old barrels allowed noticeably higher velocities and often better accuracy than the new barrels.
They determined that lubes mixed with fouling settled in the pits and acted like microscopic ball bearing under the pressure of bullet passage.
Apparently they used lubed slugs rather than patched ball for these tests.

[Black Jaque Janaviac]

Multigunner, interesting claim. Do you have a source?

[Geezer in NH]

Old post quote from an old BP magazine. Note BB, WL and all the rest of the colors were from the same folks. It' a great read. I have not used any since I was told by a barrel maker they had to chisel the **** out of the barrels the warranted do to it.

I tried the Wonder 1000 theory, and I'd love to see someone
actually do that. I've watched 5 different guys try it, and the record
is 8
shots, same as I got. Of course, another way to look at it is: on any
given day that I am hunting deer with it and I get off 10 shots and
don't have a deer to show for it, I probably ought to go home and give
some serious consideration to what I am doing wrong.

Tony,

You have no idea how much humor has come out of Ox-Yoke's claims on the
1000 Shot Plus lube. To the point where some of us now call them
Ox-Joke. With any of my three BP rifles "an historic feat" is getting the
4th ball down the bore without resorting to a bigger hammer.
I'll run you through the full story since the snow has started to fall.
Lets go back to the early 1980's.

A shooter/buckskinner by the name of Young, living in California, went
to the range one day and forgot his patch lube. In utter desperation he
whips out a tube of Chap-Stick and smears it on a few patches. Lo &
Behold it worked better than the lube he had been using. Several of his
buddies tried his idea and reported it worked well. So Young then
tracked down the source of Chap- Stick which is a common lip balm
formulation that has been floating around since the late 19th century.
Chap-Stick is petrolatum (petroleum jelly) with 5% cetyl alcohol and
water. The cetyl alcohol acting as the emulsifyer. With the cetyl
alcohol the water forms minute beads within the petrolatum. Without the
cetyl alcohol you can't get the water to mix in any way with the
petrolatum. Huge quantities of cetyl alcohol are used in the production
of PVC emulsion resins used in kitchen flooring. (My old job was as an
R&D
Tech. on these resins.) The petrolatum is the moisture barrier and
carrier for a topical agent used to soothe chapped lips. The water
emulsified into the petrolatum reduces the drag of the "stick" when you
apply it to your lips and acts as the moisturizing agent. Young then
finds a place to buy Chap-Stick in bulk and packages it as Young Country
Arms 103 Lube. That his lube and Chap->Stick are identical in every
respect, right down to the color, suggested he simply bought from the
makers of Chap-Stick in bulk quantities. Now Ted Bottomly had started
Ox-Yoke and made pre-cut patches and packs of patch cloth. He wanted a
patch lube to round out his line. He bought the first Ox-Yoke lube from
Young. When I first saw them I was at the late C.P. Wood's house in West
Virginia. Woody was looking at a 4 ounce container
of Young Country 103 and a 3 ounce container of Ox-Yoke's patch lube.
Both were identical in every respect, including color. You paid the same
price for 3 ounces of Ox-Yoke's lube as you paid for 4 ounces of Young's
lube. The logical conclusion would be that Ox-Yoke was buying from Young
and the missing ounce was Ox-Yoke's profit on the deal.

Both were advertising their respective lubes in the magazines. Young
advertised that you could fire a hundred rounds without wiping the bore
with his lube. Three months later, Ox-Yoke would advertise that when you
used their lube you could fire 200 rounds without wiping the bore. The 3
month lag time in the mags being the lag time in getting adds scheduled.
This went on, each one upping the ante, so to speak.
Those of us connected with the Buckskin Report discussed this in letters
and thought it a great joke.

The others in the field at that time were Hodgdon with their "Spit-Patch"
which was nothing more than beeswax emulsified in water with a soap.
Then there was T/C Maxi-Lube which was nothing more than the same
petroleum grease they used to grease the bearings in their machines.
Blue and Grey products was selling an automotive wheel bearing grease
that had been pigmented, not dyed, blue. I receieved several letters from
Doc Carlson. He was seeing BP muzzleloaders come into his shop with
balls or slugs stuck in the bore just ahead of the powder charge. You
could not pull these projectiles by any normal method.
He would have to remove the breech plugs, pull the charge and beat them
out of the bore, toward the muzzle with a heavy rod and a hammer. He
described the presence of a black tar-like film in the bore where the
projectiles had been frozen in place. The common thread in this being
that the shooter had used one of the "petroleum-based" lubes. I had to
explain to Doc that the petroleum greases were nothing more than
petroleum lubricating oils that had been "bodied" by the addition of
metallic soaps such as calcium or cadmium stearate. With a petroleum
lubricating oil, or grease, anytime you heat them to a high temperature
in the presence of sulfur you get asphalt. The way asphalts were
produced was to take crude oil and sulfur in an autoclave. Heat the
mixture to 600 degrees for about 8 hours
and you had road tar. Which is about what was happening in the gun.
Since the repackaged Chap-Stick was a petroleum wax it did not form
asphalt with sulfur and high temperatures. I then wrote an article for
the Backwoodsman magazine and compared the behavior of the two Chap-Stick
lubes to the behavior of sperm whale oil when it had been used in black
powder guns.

Well, Old Ted Bottomly jumped right onto that one. three months later
he starts advertising that his lube is "all-natural, non-petroleum" and
authentic, using what our ancesters had used. At that point I figured
his parents were to Christian to call him ******* so they settled for
Bottomly. By about 1984, Bottomly and Young had a falling out over
pricing. The one ounce shy thing with Ox-Yoke pushed most of the
customers to Young's lube. Same thing, same price but more of it with
Young Country 103. And by this time we were up to 800 rounds between
swabbings. Technology marches on. Bottomy came out with his first Wonder
Lube. Years of research went into this lube, or so he claimed. Now at
this time Ox-Yoke was located in West Suffield, CT. A short time later I
was searching the drugstore shelves looking for petrolatum-based skin
care products or salves that I coulde repackage and become a millionaire
. I spotted this tube of something
called "Mineral Ice". Menthol in petrolatum. Made by a Dermatone
Laboratories located in Suffield, CT. Out comes the map. just by a
mere coincidence both companies were located just across the river from
each other. This of course raised doubts as to the "years of research"
comments out of Bottomly. The new Wonder Lube went into the lab. Proved
to be mineral oil, paraffin wax, a yellow dye and oil of wintergreen. A
book at work on fats, waxes and oils nailed this one down to a common
chest rub preparation for those with head colds who could not tolerate
camphorated oil. Again it was billed as "all-natural and non-petroleum".
Never mind that paraffin wax comes from paraffinic crude oils and mineral
oil comes from napthenic crude oils, the yellow dye and the oil of
wintergreen should convince anybody that it is all-natural and
non-petroleum. Given the wax and oil, I simply refer to this type of lube
as a remanufactured vaseline. With the yellow dye the rubes will swear
it is beeswax.

One thing about con artists is that they are never content to leave a
con artest for any length of time. In 1990, Bottomly comes out with a
new version called 1000 Shot Plus lube. High-technology now made
possible a lube that eliminated fouling, eliminated the need to clean and
would totally stop bore corrosion. Bottomly searched the world for this
modern technology and found it in Germany after years of searching. This
advance in this lube was made possible by this
secret micronizing agent. It gave the lube a micron particle size that
made all of this advancement possible. At that point his chest thumping
ego trip gave away the formula. This secret micronizing agent is no real
secret and has been around for over 100 years. It is nothing more than a
fossil wax mined in Germany. The same time of wax used to be mined in
Utah as Utah Wax but the mine closed for lack of business.
Paraffin wax is a hard brittle wax that forms huge crystals. When you
look at a block of paraffin wax sold for food canning you see lines on
the surface of the blocks of wax. Those are the lines denoting crystal
size. It had been found that if you added this fossil wax to paraffin
wax it would reduce the size of these crystals, though nowhere near a
micron in size. Paraffin wax was limited in which skin care and salve
formulations it could be used in because of the macro-crystallinty of it.
This made it unsuited to preparations where hardness and brittleness
were objectionable. By using the fossiol wax addition the paraffin wax
could replace more expensive waxes in these products. But when you lay
this type of Techno-Nonsense on a bunch of ignorant rube BP shooters they
will beat a path to your door, wallet in hand.

Now, to get back to an historic feat of 3 shots without swabbing the
bore. The problem with this type of lube is that as long as the surface
temperature of the bore is above the melting point of the wax, about 40
to 45 C, the fouling deposited by the combustion of the powder will slide
off the metal when pressure is applied to it. When the surface
temperature of the bore is below the melting point of the wax it will act
as an adhesive and hold the fouling to the surface. The unburned
charcaol in the powder fouling will adsorb most of the mineral oil
present in the lube. This turns it into an oily sludge that simply
builds up in the breech with repeated loading of the gun. After a few
rounds are fired in a flinter you have the oily sludge being blown out of
the vent which then coats the flint and frizzen. Lubricated flints
strike no sparks.
Now for the real punch line. With the addition of the micronizing agent
they doubled the amount of dye used so the new lube was more orange in
color, compared to the lemon yellow of the previous version, and they
doubled the amount of oil of wintergreen. Convince the rubes that it is
now even more natural. During the past few years there has been much
******** about the quality of Ox-Joke's pre-lubed patches. I have seen
packs in the store where the lube had turned hard and brown. The mineral
oil migrates out of the paraffin wax into the low density polyethlene
used in the bags. This makes the lube hard and brittle. It goes back to
paraffin wax properties. With these an historic feat is getting the
second ball down the barrel without wiping. Ox-Joke supplies T/C with
Bore Butter which is only a slight modification
of Ox-Joke's standard formula.

Remember the dbate about blowing down the barrel on the message boards.
My off line joke was that as long as you use the repackaged Chap-Stick as
a patch lube you would not get chapped lips from blowing down a cold
barrel.

Then their was Uncle Mike's Apple Green patch lube. Another paraffin
wax/mineral oil lube with methylsalicin in it. Nothing more than a
repackaged arthritis salve. I can tell you that is was very effective on
a knee suffereing degenerative joint disease. So if you are going to go
out in those North Woods in winter weather to hunt the elusive whitetail
you ought to take all three lubes along. Prevent chapped lips, take care
of chest colds and arthritic joints from all of the hoofing through the
snow. No reason for you to return home in anything less than the best of
health in spite ot the weather. Might be a good idea to take along one of
the ascorbic acid-based powders since that is vitamin C. Then Goex's
sugar-based powder might make an emergency trail food.

I joke with Dixon that it is bad enough we have to deal with the ATF,
what next with these products, the Food and Drug Administration too???
Well, time to go sit out on the deck for a smoke and listen to the snow
flakes fall.

[fiberoptik]

Always figured that they were all bs! Thanks for clearing that up for us.


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[indian joe]

Always figured that they were all bs! Thanks for clearing that up for us.


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Amazing how many otherwise clever fellers get conned by the fancy lube story --- then they go back for another dose with the "cleaning" products ----blackpowder Solvent --hah -- try H2O

[Edward]

Excellent dissertation on a silly marketing ploy /well said/Ed

[725]

Thanks, Geezer. Loved it.

[Armyboy12A]

WD-40 is not marketed as a "long term" rust preventive...they have a silcone based spray for that...WD-40 dries over time allowing rust to set in. It is good, along with 90% isopropyl alcohol, at initially displacing moisture. I recommend using RIG grease for storage, or even cosmoline. RIG is easier to clean but cosmoline has stood the test of time, seeing as you can buy WWII era firearms without a spec of rust on them.

[swheeler]

Geezer that was a great read, thank you. Right now I have in my supplies Wonder Lube 1000, TC bore butter and Hodgdon Spit Patch, I feel like I've been swindled![smilie=l:

[TheOutlawKid]

Wonder lube 1000 and bore butter type products wont help your situation. Ive always had issues anytime i used it, especially with pyrodex. I only use cold/room temp water and only distilled water. I use a small spray bottle to clean my guns, you would be suprised how little water/cleaner is required to get the job done. I dont buy into the whole "seasoning" the bore nonsense...so when i clean i make sure to remove all left over fouling and wax and oil based lubes. To do so i use a very inexpensive degreaser called "LA totally awesome" from Dollar stores. Its gentle on bluing but gets deep into the pores of the metal to remove any fouling and waxy oils that can trap any moisture and fouling that will cause rust. I have some white nylon bristled brushes i use to clean my guns with that had seemed to turn a dark grayish black color from cleaning all the fouling from my guns, i used Dawn and even break cleaner/carb cleaner to clean the brushes. Didnt work, got them a little clean but atill left them dirty. I then sprayed LA Totally Awesome on the brushes and it cleaned off the built up fouling and lube grime that no other chemical cleaners could. I was impressed...since then its just about all i use. I dilute it anywhere from 50-75% water and 25-50% cleaner...you could probably even get away with a 10% cleaner 90% water formula too. After i scrub with this cleaner i run some dry patches to dry and then use some patches that have Barricade. This combo works great for me. I insist that my fellow members head out to the dollar store and spend a dollar on this yellow liquid cleaner. It is well worth the investment.

[Black Jaque Janaviac]

Not all brown residue is rust. Take a paper towel and wipe a well-seasoned cast iron fry pan and you'll get a brown paper, though you could see no rust.

Rust is usually a red color. Count me as a disrespectful gun owner. Not that I purposefully let them rust, but "finding what works" is a bit elusive. I've read up on experiments with several rust inhibitors and Rig is supposed to be among the tops. Well my guns have rusted with a good dose of Rig.

The one thing I have noticed is that barrels that were commercially blued are far easier to maintain than "kit gun" barrels which have the outside browned while the bore remains in-the-white.

[n.h.schmidt]

The Outlaw Kid has put me on to the LA awesome cleaner. It has been very effective for me. I mostly shoot pyrodex with very corrosive home made percussion caps. I clean with this stuff and use Ballistal to finish up. No rust with this. Room temp tap water only.
n.h.schmidt

[TheOutlawKid]

Mr.n.h. schmidt, thanks for taking my advice! Worth the dollar huh?

[n.h.schmidt]

I'll say! Worth a buck. My next best is window cleaner with ammonia.
n.h.schmidt

[jjarrell]

I don’t subscribe to the the belief that petroleum based anything in my bore is bad. I use OE black powder with mink oil as patch lube. I clean and dry with hot soapy water and cotton patches until the last patch is not marked. Then I run a wet patch of Barricade through and coat the bore.

I dry patch to make sure there’s no oil in the bore before shooting the next time of course. Long story short, I never have any rust or residue on the dry patch before the next shooting session. Rust is much worse for a bore than a light coat of rust inhibitor, that is wiped out before its shot.

[waksupi]

I don’t subscribe to the the belief that petroleum based anything in my bore is bad. I use OE black powder with mink oil as patch lube. I clean and dry with hot soapy water and cotton patches until the last patch is not marked. Then I run a wet patch of Barricade through and coat the bore.

I dry patch to make sure there’s no oil in the bore before shooting the next time of course. Long story short, I never have any rust or residue on the dry patch before the next shooting session. Rust is much worse for a bore than a light coat of rust inhibitor, that is wiped out before its shot.

Petroleum + carbon = asphalt

[jjarrell]

Petroleum + carbon = asphalt

Agreed. Asphalt + bore = Bad.

However, Barricade doesn’t stay wet. But it does keep rust from forming in your bore. An alcohol patch, followed by dry before shooting and the bore is clear. No asphalt. Lol.

I wouldn’t use it if the patches came out anything but white. After that, the beeswax and mink oil keeps everything all slickery. :smile:

[Alferd Packer]

I use hot water and a brush followed by patches to dry the bore. I mix a tablespoon of Arm an Hammer washing soda in a quart of hot water and add a tablespoon of kerosene to the mix. I can clean the gun several times with this mix.
After cleaning I dry the bore with dry patches.
Then I run a lightly greased patch back and forth in the bore to spread a thin coat.
Just regular gun grease. I follow that with a lightly saturated patch of gun oil.Rub that one back and forth on a cleaning rod. Then one tight fitting patch on a jag just the way the bullet goes thru. Inspect the bore and that's it. I use a pull thru jag for Winchester 94's for the final stroke.
I never had any rust yet. Guns used in winter can suffer from condensation causing rust after cleaning. I always like to inspect them once every week after cleaning. I inspect the bore and run a patch thru. Sometimes another application of cleaner and ready and regrease.
Of course if you own a gun safe with a dehumidifier running 24-7, you probably clean it and oil it and lock it in the stable.
Ideally, all guns should be stored that way, but I spent my safe money on a couple more guns.
Anyway, handling your guns and checking the bore a couple times a week apart after shooting and cleaning is the least a conscientious gun owner should do. When you check, always run a clean patch thru the bore. There are things the eye to the bore can't see, but a patch is a better tell I think.

[TheOutlawKid]

I use Barricade without issue in all my black powder guns. Of course its not used as a lube...just a rust prevention coat, a very thin light coat. I love the stuff, one of the best ive ever used to prevent rust.

[TheOutlawKid]

I once used mink oil from track of the wolf by instelf and in many different lube mixes...works great as a bullet lube but not as a rust preventer/metal protectant. I used it as arbor lube and all around lube and rust preventer and it always caused a wet rust that mixed with the mink oil. By itself or in mixes it always caused some brown slick gunk that smelt like rust and stained any fabric it touched, washing didnt clean the fabrics either. I really wanted to use it but no matter what it always left that rust film behind, although the rust never caused damage to the metal or seem to "stick" to the metal i still decided on not using mink oil...and if i were to use it as a bullet/patch lube either by itself or in a wax mix...id definately clean the gun very well to get every last bit of it off my guns when i cleaned them and definitely before storage. Now for arbor lube i mainly use a mix of mobil 1 synthetic grease mixed with a little lanolin and canola oil...which suprises me that it hasnt gone rancid over time due to the canola oil. Ive also used the same mix without the mobil 1 synthetic grease...just lanolin with a little canola oil, works great and actually keeps rust away and keeps the cylinder moving after so many shots. Good stuff.

[hpdrifter]

try replacin' the WD-40 with 91% alcohol for water removal after cleanin' followed by a few dry patches & replace the bore-butter with Birchwood-Casey Barricade for storage lubrication/bore-protection purposes.

This. Since starting the use of Barricade.................no rust returns.

[The Old Man]

After a thorough cleaning of my hawken and letting it sit a few days I always have a slight bit of rust in the bore. My regimen includes a thorough swabbing with the breech end in a bucket of water till I get clean patches. Then I pull it out and swab it a few more times for good measure. WD40 soaking then let it drip upside down for a few then swab the excess WD out and finish with a well saturated patch of bore butter. This is after sitting a week or so after this regimen.
http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20161008/5963e257e60006f1d02a596925b3b2ec.jpg

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I don't think what you are getting on the cleaning patch is really rust. Oftentimes the patchlube/conical lube isn't removed during regular cleaning, and as it burns during repeat firings that which your patch is showing is the result.

Some call it seasoning, but reguardless, it burns after a while. Eventually it can effect accuracy. Getting it out is nettlesome. I've heard tell that 91% alcohol can loosen it for removal, and T/C suggested the elimination of petroleum based cleaners because they hinder the seasoning process of their Natural Lube, but very tight patches on a cleaning jag, (I double patch in my 54) will get a lot of it out by dry patching between the hot soapy water, and clean hot water rinse, then to dry.

Does it make a difference? Not all the time, so, if it ain't broke don't fix it.

One more thing, you may have heard that the "seasoning" can hinder accuracy, and a few gunsmiths have made a little money cleaning it out......now you know why.

[waksupi]

I'm starting to think that color is from the WD40. That's the color it turns when it oxidizes a bit. With that little bit of discoloration showing, I wouldn't even worry about it.

[Gtek]

I wonder if there are any places or facilities, let's call them retreats, yea a retreat. A nice place where one could take a loved one or a friend to a structured, secure place. Professional guidance to help them find another source for their displacement issues and help them get of the WD.
. :bigsmyl2: