bullet profile vs velocity

[andym79]

Hi guys, which of these bullet profiles would travel best if its beginning at around 1450 fps at the muzzle and being shot at 200 yards:

the lyman

311291
311041
311332
311299
311284

thanks

[OnHoPr]

291 @ .202 bc
041` @
332 @
299 @ .377 bc
290 @ .305 bc
620 @ .379 bc
334 @ .340 bc
467 @ .320 bc
407 @ .270 bc
31141 @ .220 bc
466 @ .250 bc
440 @ .134 bc

[andym79]

So are you saying that 311299, 311620 and 311334 are the go?

I was asking about shape and drag as well as BC.

[buckshotshoey]

So are you saying that 311299, 311620 and 311334 are the go?

I was asking about shape and drag as well as BC.

Not sure exactly what you are asking but the ballistic coefficient IS the measure of drag. Thats why boat tail bullets have a higher BC then the same bullet of a flat base design. The boat tails simply have less vacuum behind the bullet in flight. And the mian cause of drag is the vacuum. I can show you actual high speed pictures of the mach cone created by a bullet in flight. The different shape of mach cones created by a pointed of flat nose bullet is apparent. But the "wake" created behind the base of bullet is what is really interesting.

To the first part of your question, they all have the potential for accuracy. One may drop more then the others. One may be blown off course more then the others. But your particular firearm is the last say. No way for anyone to make that determination, except for you that is. Find someone with the moulds you want to try. Then let you firearm tell you what it wants.

[JSnover]

Since the B.C. is a function of both, the higher number should tell you what you want to know but it matters more on paper targets than game animals.

[buckshotshoey]

Since the B.C. is a function of both, the higher number should tell you what you want to know but it matters more on paper targets than game animals.

Ditto.... choosing a bullet mould has to do with what you are shooting at. Groundhogs? Deer? Elk or moose? Cardboard or paper? Choose the bullet with the target first in mind. Your most "accurate" choice may not be the "proper" bullet for the intended target.

[andym79]

Thanks guys, as always there is no single answer, an I was light on specifics.

This bullet, unlike some others I use for hunting, is purely for target shooting. What I meant to ask was which of those is best suited to moving through the transonic?

[buckshotshoey]

Can you tell us what firearm you will be shooting it from?

[andym79]

Sure Winchester 94 30-30, I have been using 311041 it does okay (use it for hunting), but I want to get better from it for target shooting. A load that holds he 9 ring at 100 yards not sometimes but all the time if I do my bit. Something approaching the success I get from the 38-55.

I don't mind single loading it if I get better results, it doesn't have to feed from the mag!

[buckshotshoey]

Out of the mould choices you gave, I only see one suitable choice. The 311041, 173 grain. The rest look too pointed to use in a tube magazine.

The 311672 160 grain MIGHT be flat nosed enough to be ok. Cant tell from the picture.

The 173 grain shouldnt transition to subsonic at 200 yards anyway. If it does, push it a little faster.

You say you dont mind single loading. So now you have to see what twist you have. It might not be fast enough to stabilize the heavier, longer bullets.

If you have the "standard" 1 in 12 twist, and single load.......
The Lyman 311644 190 grain mould (not on your list) looks interesting.

After a very short search, i didnt see any factory ammo over 170 grains. Just dont know if there is enough case capacity in a 30-30 to make anything much heavier worthwhile.

[OnHoPr]

To the first part of your question, they all have the potential for accuracy. One may drop more then the others. One may be blown off course more then the others. But your particular firearm is the last say. No way for anyone to make that determination, except for you that is. Find someone with the moulds you want to try. Then let you firearm tell you what it wants.

There is merit in this comment, but the higher BC boolit will compensate for the shooter's lack of experience with wind at those speeds and at that range. If you single load anything that will fit in the chamber is fine to shoot.

[Randy C]

I think 30/30 is a excellent hunting rifle for cast bullets and the nose profile plays a good part in getting the knock down punch you want for hunting larger animals, What about small animals that you want to keep the fur?

I think I touched on this before but never followed up on which would be the best paper bullet.
A coffee can is what we were shooting when we testing the gun for hunting at longer ranges.

If you have a place to shot see if you can get some members to send you some different bullets and try them in you gun.

[runfiverun]

most 94's will only chamber what they feed.
you might get away with a little different nose shape or a touch more length but the 30-30 doesn't have a long ol tapered throat like a shot up milsurp rifle.
the 466 won't feed worth beans unless you shorten up the oal.
it will however shoot well with that run up to the rifling..
the 041 is the opposite it feeds well but sucks on paper at lower velocity's it's c.o.g. is too close to forward.

[Dimner]

The 311672 160 grain MIGHT be flat nosed enough to be ok. Cant tell from the picture.

I have and have used the 311672 in a marlin 336 I owned. The nose is flat nosed enough for mag feeding without chain detonation... at least it was for me. I didn't die :-) . If it actually feeds in the OPs mag is only determined by experimenting.

[andym79]

most 94's will only chamber what they feed.
you might get away with a little different nose shape or a touch more length but the 30-30 doesn't have a long ol tapered throat like a shot up milsurp rifle.
the 466 won't feed worth beans unless you shorten up the oal.
it will however shoot well with that run up to the rifling..
the 041 is the opposite it feeds well but sucks on paper at lower velocity's it's c.o.g. is too close to forward.

So are you saying the best options are to push the 041 harder or try the 466 as deeply seated as necessary to engrave the rifling?

What about the 291 it look like a good profile!

[Yodogsandman]

It is good but, I like a RCBS 30-180 FN just a little better. No, it's not on your list, sorry.

[popper]

Reliably? None - all are ~ 1100 @ 200 with 20" drop @ 1450 fps. Crank it up.

[John Boy]

The Lyman 311291 and not mentioned the Ideal 311413
I shoot both from a Winchester 94 from 200m to 500m accurately

[andym79]

The Lyman 311291 and not mentioned the Ideal 311413
I shoot both from a Winchester 94 from 200m to 500m accurately

Is that a gas check shank on the bottom of the 413, it looks a bit longer and more tapered than a lot of profiles?

[runfiverun]

yeah put a check on the 041 and try speeding it up.
the best luck I have had with it in the 30-30 is on top of 34grs of 4831.
that gives me 1800 fps.
I also prefer the rcbs boolit mostly because mine has a little fatter nose and won't come back out of the chamber unless I put a good roll crimp on the round.
but the engraving and chambering is easily accomplished with the lever and I know the round is fully chambered by the little snick at the end of the stroke.
fitment is important and without it, design BC and velocity gains you nothing.
the 041 needing that long slow launch to shoot well tells me something is wrong with it's fitment in my lever rifles.

[webfoot10]

NOE 313-150-RF all you need in a 30/30. Feeds through the tube, and is accurate to 200 yds.
Ask Dimner as he is playing around with this bullet now.

[Dimner]

NOE 313-150-RF all you need in a 30/30. Feeds through the tube, and is accurate to 200 yds.
Ask Dimner as he is playing around with this bullet now.


Absolutely correct. It's been the only cast boolit that I have had success with at hunting velocities in my odd ball groove sized Winchester 94. I can make small game and plinker loads at 1200fps. But anything over 1600fps has not worked for me. Until the Ranch Dog designed NOE 313-150-RF. 24gr of H335 with a .75gr dacron filler got me a 5 shot group at .88". 1946fps. This is with 3 light coats of BLL applied as lube.

I am going to alter the load though and try and get something to work without a filler. I'll use Rx7 or 2400 if I can find 2400.

[runfiverun]

if you want to get away from the filler go to a slower powder for better case fill, or just switch to one that ignites easier [one without the burn deterrent 335 has]
2400 can be position sensitive in many cases.
I really, really like it but..... you need to be aware of that.

I'm using 24.5grs of AA-2230 which is super close to your 335 load without the need for a filler.
Rx-7 is pretty good too but 4198/4227 would also work and spark off easily.

[Dimner]

if you want to get away from the filler go to a slower powder for better case fill, or just switch to one that ignites easier [one without the burn deterrent 335 has]
2400 can be position sensitive in many cases.
I really, really like it but..... you need to be aware of that.

I'm using 24.5grs of AA-2230 which is super close to your 335 load without the need for a filler.
Rx-7 is pretty good too but 4198/4227 would also work and spark off easily.


Good to know about position sensitivity. That will be an issue for me as I will be using these for still hunting (deer stalking as they say in the UK) and I'm going to have shots in all kinds of powder positions as I walk up and down ridges. The reason I was so set on H335 is that it's not temperature sensitive either. It may be a fools errand... but I'm looking for something that doesn't need a filler, not temperature sensitive, nor position sensitive. Keep in mind I would say 15 degrees would be the coldest I would be hunting in for deer. Looks like I should try the 4198.

[webfoot10]

Another powder you might want to try is Accurate Arms XMP 5744 powder. I am trying to
find some so I can try it myself. According to the accurate write up it should fill the 30/30
case and not require any fillers, If anyone here has used this powder, How does it perform?
Suppose to work in pistol cartridges up to the big50/140 Sharps. Might be worth looking
into, If you can find it. That's another one to play with mike.
webfoot10

[mnewcomb59]

yeah put a check on the 041 and try speeding it up.
the best luck I have had with it in the 30-30 is on top of 34grs of 4831.
that gives me 1800 fps.
I also prefer the rcbs boolit mostly because mine has a little fatter nose and won't come back out of the chamber unless I put a good roll crimp on the round.
but the engraving and chambering is easily accomplished with the lever and I know the round is fully chambered by the little snick at the end of the stroke.
fitment is important and without it, design BC and velocity gains you nothing.
the 041 needing that long slow launch to shoot well tells me something is wrong with it's fitment in my lever rifles.

Sorry to be off topic, but WOW! I am glad I have a 357. My 170 grain bullet needs 16.5 grains of powder to get 1800 fps, and that load is only around 28k PSI. I load 18.6 grains for 1950 fps. For up to 150- 200 yards, I'd gladly trade B.C. for powder efficiency.

1800 fps and 150 yard zero with .17 B.C leaves me with 1140 fps at 200 yards and -9".

My 1950 fps load at 200 yards has 1223 fps and is -7.5".

For 300 yards I'd take the 30-30 but for cheap plinkin, and the same or more power than guys run cast 30-30, the 357 can't be beat.

[quail4jake]

Amazing how much there is to this when you mix exterior ballistics and terminal ballistics. Now B.C. is not the only thing that matters, it's like a professor and farmer having a conversation...one will theorize on how it works while the other has already made it happen! Andym79, I like your comment about the .30-30 being almost as good as the .38-55, I guess someone had it figured out in 1884, eh?

[runfiverun]

efficiency is nice, and the 357 is alright.
but put the 180gr 357 against the 170gr 30 cal and the 30 cal will out penetrate it even with the lower weight.
you give and you get with each caliber.
now you can ramp the 30-30 up past jacketed velocity's, once you break 2400 fps there is no contest.
the trajectory flattens out immensely. [300 yd drop is like 11" from a 100yd zero]
you then again have a loss because the alloy can't keep up with the striking velocity.
I shot a grouse 3 years back with my 30-30 stoked as far as I could take it, I'm pretty sure there are still feathers floating down the canyon.
it would have instantly shredded a deers lungs on a broadside shot but if I had to make a raking shot I'd have been lucky to recover the poor thing.

there is a balance point in hunting with cast and the alloy, meplat diameter, and striking velocity need to coincide
or you have a big mess or a shallow mess or a small hole.
jacketed works the same way, because your basically dealing with the same material just wrapped up and flung faster.

[andym79]

Absolutely correct. It's been the only cast boolit that I have had success with at hunting velocities in my odd ball groove sized Winchester 94. I can make small game and plinker loads at 1200fps. But anything over 1600fps has not worked for me. Until the Ranch Dog designed NOE 313-150-RF. 24gr of H335 with a .75gr dacron filler got me a 5 shot group at .88". 1946fps. This is with 3 light coats of BLL applied as lube.

I am going to alter the load though and try and get something to work without a filler. I'll use Rx7 or 2400 if I can find 2400.

Is this bad boy 178404the one you got real good accuracy with? It doesn't look like my preconception of an accurate profile, but there you go!

[andym79]

Amazing how much there is to this when you mix exterior ballistics and terminal ballistics. Now B.C. is not the only thing that matters, it's like a professor and farmer having a conversation...one will theorize on how it works while the other has already made it happen! Andym79, I like your comment about the .30-30 being almost as good as the .38-55, I guess someone had it figured out in 1884, eh?

I guess, they did. I am not alone, over here at club level we shoot what we like, but when it comes too serious competition, state or national, the 38-55s come out in mass.