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View Full Version : Lil ' Gun and 357 magnum with cast boolits Felix lube too



Willbird
03-27-2005, 07:01 PM
I loaded up 15 rounds of 357 magnum with 18.0 Lil'Gun and the Lee 158RF boolit cast from water dropped WW, I finger lubed them with my first batch of Felix Lube, 15 rounds did not seem to lead, fired them at dusk because I just needed to pop some caps :-) so no accuracy results, nice cantelope sized pink muzzle flash tho.

On the Lil'Gun, Hogden lists 18.0 as max with a 158 grain xtp boolit, at 25,000psi,(1550fps in a 10" bbl) it looks like there is room for more in the case, why did they stop at 18.0 grains ?? Has anybody else used Lil'gun with cast boolits in 357 magnum ?


Bill

44man
03-27-2005, 07:35 PM
Willbird, do not exceed max loads! With smokeless there is always a lot of room left. Unlike black powder that has to be against the boolit, smokeless is not affected by airspace. Do not think you can just fill the empty space. We like you here and want to keep you. :lol:
Your pressure will be lower with the cast boolit, but don't go over max. In fact, your best accuracy will most likely be with less powder.

Junior1942
03-27-2005, 08:33 PM
Willbird, the Hodgdon manual lists 18 grs Lil'Gun as max in 357 with a 158 gr bullet because that's about all the Lil'Gun the case will hold. Your 18 gr load was probably compressed.

I load 16 grs Lil'Gun in 357 mag Rossi M92 rifle with the RCBS 38-158-SWC in wheelweight alloy at 165 grs ready to load. Velocity is 1817 fps from my 20" barrel.

imashooter2
03-27-2005, 08:35 PM
Interesting read in this thread. "Clark" is well known on several reloading boards. His specialty is overloading pistols till they break. I don't advocate his loads in any way shape or form, but check out his chronograph results on 158 grain lead Lil' Gun loads.

http://www.reloadbench.com/ubb/Forum2/HTML/000792.html

Willbird
03-27-2005, 08:39 PM
Thanks 44man, I understand reloading, in fact reload wildcat ctg. all the time that have no commercial loadings. 25,000 psi is very low for 357 magnum.

Junior1942
03-27-2005, 08:46 PM
I read the thread. IMHO, the only way "Clark" could have gotten 26 grs Lil'Gun in a 357 case is with the bullet seated way out.

The usable case capacity of a 357 case with a 158 gr bullet seated normally is about 1.07 cc. And 26 grs Lil'Gun, uncompressed, occupies about 1.8 cc. It can't be compressed that much, I don't believe. Not with normal seating depths, anyway.

44man
03-27-2005, 10:29 PM
Willbird, that is low, but some powders will really jump pressure fast if more is put in. I am not that familiar with Lil Gun so I can't say what it will do. Thats why I follow the book with new powders. Yes, I would work up over max with rifles but would measure expansion rings, etc. Many of my most accurate loads were over max.
I didn't mean to make you sound like a beginner, sorry. It's just that I don't know a lot of you. I have friends that have been reloading forever that I still have to watch like a hawk. I don't mean to put you in that catagory, but I see what happens sometimes. My friend was told by a boolit maker to start at 19.5 grs. of 296 in his .45 Vaquero with 335 gr. boolits and work up until he got pressure signs. I will not tell you how much he put in before he stopped. He never did get even a sticky case and did no damage at all, but I turned white when he told me. OK, he went to 30 grs. PLEASE DON'T DO THIS, ANYONE---DANGEROUS. :shock:
I have also lost touch with the .357, not having one for so many years, I am ashamed to tell you. The slowest powder then was 2400. I don't own any LITTLE guns now. :lol: :lol:

imashooter2
03-27-2005, 11:16 PM
I read the thread. IMHO, the only way "Clark" could have gotten 26 grs Lil'Gun in a 357 case is with the bullet seated way out.

The usable case capacity of a 357 case with a 158 gr bullet seated normally is about 1.07 cc. And 26 grs Lil'Gun, uncompressed, occupies about 1.8 cc. It can't be compressed that much, I don't believe. Not with normal seating depths, anyway.

I asked him how he did it once. He said he fills the case, compresses it with a press mounted rod that fits tightly in the case, refills the case and compresses it again. I didn't ask about OAL. Clark is a whack job, but reading his stuff for a few years, I'm convinced he's not a liar.

Willbird
03-28-2005, 07:46 AM
And Clark has filled the role of other well respected gun people that tested loads and guns, Elmer Keith said on the 357 magnum in orig concept he loaded up some ammo and fired 1000 rounds to see if the gun would take it.

I was just putting out a feeler on lilgun and 357 in general, and I realise there are some rifle powders that are real twitchy and once you hit 50,000 or so the pressure starts to climb rapidly without adding much if any velocity, and in a few cases you lose some.

in 44 magnum lilgun doesnt show nearly the extremes of lowpressure and high velocity it does in 357 magnum, I have not looked at the 357 max data to see what is going on there with lilgun,I usually look at apowder over a broad spectrum of ctg. to get a "feel" for where it fits into the old line of 2400, h4227,296-h110, unique, and etc.

Bill

Junior1942
03-28-2005, 03:54 PM
I just tried it, and 26 grs of Lil'Gun fills a 357 mag case exactly to the brim. Maybe that guy did compress it enough to seat a bullet. :shock:

44man
03-28-2005, 07:22 PM
I don't think I would like to do that. I like my guns and my hands. I figure if more power is wanted, buy a bigger gun. 8)

Willbird
03-29-2005, 10:14 AM
Not to disagree just for the sake of it 44man but many people feel the 44 magnum is best used for 250 grains loads at 1200fps just like Elmer did, and that wopping loads of 296-h110 and 300-350 grain boolits tread into the "get a bigger gun" territory. I think I would do Clarklike stuff in a bolt action rifle action set up with pistol bbls...there is much to be learned in that arena with new powders I think. The powder compnaies are not going to give us many loads up at the true working pressure of a wellmade revolver in any caliber except maybe 454c, and they will probably wimp that out too just give them time.

On further development of the LilGun loads I loaded 20 more rounds, fired 10 over the ohler proof and got from 1250 to 1350 fps with 8 of the ten clustered right around 1250fps, these were the first run boolits from the Lee 158rf 6 cylinder and they are not lube sized just finger lubed with felix and seated in the cases, they mike .359 and the gun has .3585ish throats. I fired 5 offhand at 25 yards and was encouraged to see 2" or so group.

I fired 5 from an improvised rest (plastic rubbermaid tote we use for UPS box) and got a group high and to the right on my cardboard, 4 shots on the paper looked to be around 6" group. all things considered not bad for a ruger sec six 4" revolver with open sights. This gun has had the action slicked and the bbl set back one thread, the cyl trued and endshake and cyl gap set properly.

Bill

44man
03-29-2005, 09:13 PM
Willbird, I use 320 and 330 gr. boolits in my .44's with 21.5 grs. of 296. Pressures are very low and results on deer are fantastic. I find the heavy boolits are much more accurate too. Many groups are 1" and under at 50 yd's. I have some sub 1" groups at 75 yd's too. I never push loads for speed. I work for accuracy only and don't care what the velocity is because I have never found a deer that will disagree. I will never use a WHOPPING load in any revolver. Big boolits, yes, but, unlike some others, I am well under max loads.
I use a lot of 250 Keith boolits with 7 grs. of Unique for plinking. Very nice load.
I am interested in your Lil Gun results and will buy some soon to play with. Keep up the good work and keep us posted. As soon as I get some powder, I might be able to add to the post.

Willbird
03-29-2005, 10:24 PM
I did count the boolits by weight that I made last night, total for 2 hours was 1372 boolits from a Lee 6 cyl.

need to quit slacking and get moving hehe.

I'm also going to explore green dot because I have 3-4 lbs of it hanging around.


Bill

Greg
03-29-2005, 10:53 PM
Willbird

I loaded and shot Lil” Gun with the Lyman 358156 a couple of weeks back. I was checking accuracy and velocities at 50 yards off the sandbags.

Two weeks ago at the range I started testing some .357 loads in my 8⅜" S&W Performance Center M686 with a 2x Leupold Scope. All of the bullets I shot that week were cast, sized and lubed (NRA / Allox) in 1984. I didn’t even add fresh lube. I just shot them right out of the box from under the loading bench. It was the next day before I thought to get a BHN reading. 15 BHN. Straight wheel weights cast in a Lyman 358156 double cavity mould. I use a Lyman .359 sizing die but get a bullet about .360

This is the only cast bullet that I had ever gotten acceptable accuracy from in 357 Magnum loads.

The first load that I shot was with Win .357 brass, 14.5 of W296 with a WSPM primer, 358156 1.60 oal. 1704 fps 3-3½" group at 50 yards. This was from a box of loads that I had loaded in 1984, most accurate load in a 5" M27 that I owned back then.

I shot the 358156 with Starline .357 brass, 15 grains 2400 (new) and WSPM primer, 1.585 oal. The sun was on the chrono, we got one reading, 1700 fps and 4-4½" no leading.

Then I shot some Lil’ Gun loads, Starline .357 brass, 1.585 oal. I started at 17.0 grains, WSPM primer, 1540 fps, 3½-4" group; 17.5 grains Lil’ Gun, WSPM primer, 1640 fps, 2" group; 18.0 Lil’ Gun, WSPM primer, 1645 fps, group opened up to 4-5" most definitely to much for this combination of components.

Notice how at the PUBLISHED MAXIMUM LOAD of LiL’Gun, my componets resulted in a classic sign of an OVERLOAD !! Increasing the powder charged resulted in a slight increase of velocity.

Next time that I get to the range, I try Lil’ Gun loads of 17.6, 17.7, 17.8, 17.9 to see it there is a sweetspot. But I won’t shoot 18.0 grains Lil’ Gun.
God Bless ya'll.
Greg

Willbird
03-29-2005, 10:58 PM
Well from what Clark found out for us you could have kept pounding powder in til you got to 26.0 grains and not increase velocity.

18.0 in my gun gave absolutely no pressure signs. that is what I would expect if it was hitting 26,000 as Hogden says it does


Bill

Greg
03-29-2005, 11:22 PM
Willbird-

No thanks, I’m sharp enough to learn by others mistakes.

I’ll keep my fingers and all the meat on my thumb. Just because Elmer lost a chunk of thumb when that cylinder came loose and the top strap went flying, doesn’t mean that I need to.
God Bless ya’ll.
Greg

Willbird
03-30-2005, 07:58 AM
I have found Hogden powder mauls to be very accurate, about 10% conservative on rifle loadings, and never ever has a maximum load caused pressure signs, also Clark indicated he asked Hogden why they did not use more Lil'Gun in their max loadings and their reply was "18.0 grains is all that fits in the case"

and FWIW I wouldnt let the .1 of a grain between 17.9 grains and 18.0 grains let me sleep like a baby if the 18.0 kept me awake all night :-)


Bill

Willbird
03-30-2005, 10:09 AM
I want to just make it clear that I ment no slight in the earlier post, I myself have found ctg. that use low baseline maximum pressures (35,00 psi or so for 357 for example) to be very predictible especially with double based powders, if the bullet does not start leading the bore or something else silly goes on increasing powder increases pressure in a predictible manner, there may be a curve to the pressure vs powder increase ratio but I have not seen it take a shot straight off the top of the charts EVER with a 35,000 psi pistol ctg.

This can happen with rifle ctg. and some powders up near 55,000-60,000 psi, usually with a powder that is slightly "fast" for the ctg. it is being used in, IE it will reach maximum pressure well before it reaches 100% loading density.

Bill

Scrounger
03-30-2005, 11:29 AM
I want to just make it clear that I ment no slight in the earlier post, I myself have found ctg. that use low baseline maximum pressures (35,00 psi or so for 357 for example) to be very predictible especially with double based powders, if the bullet does not start leading the bore or something else silly goes on increasing powder increases pressure in a predictible manner, there may be a curve to the pressure vs powder increase ratio but I have not seen it take a shot straight off the top of the charts EVER with a 35,000 psi pistol ctg.

This can happen with rifle ctg. and some powders up near 55,000-60,000 psi, usually with a powder that is slightly "fast" for the ctg. it is being used in, IE it will reach maximum pressure well before it reaches 100% loading density.

Bill
A couple of times I have seen with slower powders, both in rifle and pistol cartridges, the pressure (as shown by velocity) maxes out before you run out of powder room. One example was with the .30-06 and Winchester 760 powder. I was chronographing loads and at one point the velocity stopped increasing even though the powder charge was increased. That was simply all the powder that could be burned in the time frame involved. The excess powder was being blown out the barrel I assume. I am not sure of the explanation, I only know what I saw on the Chrony.

felix
03-30-2005, 11:40 AM
Are you folks buying this Lilgun in large lots? It seems to me I remember someone talking about some really wild lots of the stuff. Where or when, I don't remember at all. Anyway, it sounds like the lot variation is large indeed from the talk on this thread. ... felix

Willbird
03-30-2005, 01:30 PM
I bought my 1lb can at Gander mtn, and there was a recall notice on the powder cabinet about some lots of LilGun, if it was too fast it might be more perfect for 357 hehe

C1PNR
03-30-2005, 02:53 PM
What Felix is talking about is also running around in the back of my mind. That's one reason I don't have any Lil' Gun in the cabinet.

I get started back on the Python, though, and that may change. Speaking of which, I need to look around for a better holster. I really don't like the "Sidekick" that well for that nice old pistola. :)

imashooter2
03-30-2005, 08:39 PM
Are you folks buying this Lilgun in large lots? It seems to me I remember someone talking about some really wild lots of the stuff. Where or when, I don't remember at all. Anyway, it sounds like the lot variation is large indeed from the talk on this thread. ... felix

I buy it by the pound... I've had 2 different lots so far and they have shot as close to identical as powder can. I also have a friend that top hats primers pretty good with the same components/charge I'm using. His rifle is an older microgroove 1894C, mine is year 2001 production.

felix
03-30-2005, 10:34 PM
WE, it is always best to buy powder by the 8 pounders. That way if you buy 2 jugs, you might luckily have 2 different speeds when requesting differing lots. I've done this several times with the H335 lookalikes, and unfortunately always got 2 lots within 1 grain of each other in 30-30 and 35rem case sizes (35 & 40). Not enough difference for fun and games. Hoping for 3 grains or so! ... felix

Bret4207
03-31-2005, 06:38 PM
Re- Clark: I think he used to be on Shooters too. Did anyone else notice his claim that he used a Colt Police Positive reamed to 357 Mag? Maybe he did, but if so there's not much cylinder length to seat a bullet out. Even if he meant an Official Police (Python size frame) I'd say his well being is more due to the over engineering and quality of his Colt than under power loading recomendations from the powder manufactuers.

imashooter2
03-31-2005, 10:27 PM
Re- Clark: I think he used to be on Shooters too. Did anyone else notice his claim that he used a Colt Police Positive reamed to 357 Mag? Maybe he did, but if so there's not much cylinder length to seat a bullet out. Even if he meant an Official Police (Python size frame) I'd say his well being is more due to the over engineering and quality of his Colt than under power loading recomendations from the powder manufactuers.

He has posted elsewhere that he bought a bunch of them and converted them to magnums with a straight reamer. He has since destroyed several. Reading his stuff over the years, he does not just compress some outrageous amount of powder "X" in a case and wander out to the range and pull the trigger. He works up carefully until he blows brass or bends the gun. He has never said, but I doubt he holds them in his hand while he does it either.

StarMetal
04-01-2005, 12:33 PM
Clarkm was on the old shooters and he did his, shall we call it, research in a very safe manner. He absolutely, positively did not hold the guns in his hands when striving for a blowup test. By schooling he is a physicist, so he's certainly no average Joe or dummy. There were some on the old Shooters that looked upon him as some kook, as they thought anyone that would ruin a firearm was one. The man has alot of enlightening information that alot of us would have never gathered in a life time unless we did the same tests.

Joe

swheeler
04-01-2005, 01:07 PM
Product recall Lot#103080221 Hodgdon LIL'GUN call 1-800-622-4366
Scooter :!:

Clark
04-04-2005, 10:31 PM
Here are some of my notes:

4) The Hodgdon max load for the 158 gr. XTP JHP is 18 gr. LIL'GUN for 1577 fps, 10" barrel, 25.8kcup

There is no lead bullet data for LIL'GUN, but I have been shooting 158 gr. LSWCs with LIL'GUN 1.590", WSPM:
13 gr. good 357 mag load
17.5 gr. the primer flattens.
21 gr. the primer top hats
26 gr. case is full, no pressure problems



6) Colt Police Positive 38 Special 4" barrel reamed out to 357 mag:
1) cheap reloads mixed brand brass 158 gr. JHP, 830 fps
2) 18 gr. LIL'GUN 158 gr. XTP 1.59", WSPM, 1173 fps
3) 23.5 gr. LIL'GUN 158 gr. XTP 1.59", WSPM, 1155 fps


There could be a sweet spot somewhere besides 18 gr.

Of the 5 police surplus Colt Positives from the 1950's I got surplus from AIM for $80/each, two have been destroyed. One with AA#5, and one with LONGSHOT. It is a shame when that happens, as these revolvers are way to nice to be destructively tested, even if that is what I bought them for.

Hodgdon told me that they are not using cast bullets becuase Lil'Gun melts the base. I am having no problems, so I continue to do it, but I sometimes use 158 gr XTPs.

"Whack job"?
Is that why I keep getting banned from forums?

imashooter2
04-04-2005, 10:58 PM
Here are some of my notes:

-snip-

"Whack job"?
Is that why I keep getting banned from forums?

But I meant that in the nicest way. :)

454PB
04-06-2005, 12:54 AM
I gotta confess, Clark, I thought you were a little "dangerous" when I read your first few posts. I've changed my mind, now I think you are a "pioneer". I've also been accused of being a little adventurous, but nothing to compare to you.

As to lot to lot variations, I usually buy powder in 8 pound containers. I recently bought 3 eight pound containers of Lil'Gun, and all three are the same lot.

I've been having a real enjoyable time experimenting with this powder, but so far only in .44 magnum and .454 Casull. I will try some in .357 when I'm through with the bigger guns.

I'm as guilty as anybody, but I think we all tend to preach too much about the dangers involved in handloading. My opinion is to help when asked, and warn when I see impending disaster, but sometimes the guy at the shooting bench next to you may actually know more than you do. If I am in doubt about that, I just move away a few benches.

Willbird
04-06-2005, 06:56 AM
Honestly I have been reading on guns and reloading for 35 years of my 40, If you read Ackley's handbook, or the american rifleman, handloader, etc. there used to be LOTS of info about writers exploring where the ctg./gun system breaks down when the pressure gets to high (read that as blowing guns up)

Even Smith/Wesson was recently reported top have made a plug to replace the bbl on a TI cyl J frame revolver and fired (5) +p ctg. with no harm to the cyl. or the gun. What this tells me is that +p 38 special makes it's peak pressure while the boolit is still in the cyl.

People do things MORE dangerous by accident than the things Clark does on purpose. Like switching primers from what is listed in shotgun data, or wads.

Bill

Clark
06-28-2006, 07:51 PM
Someone has sent me pressure traces for LIL'GUN and H110.

It looks like the load data on the Hodgdon site and in their load books for LIL'GUN 158 gr 357 mag is bogus.

What does it all mean?
H110 is just as good as LIL'GUN

Bucks Owin
06-29-2006, 01:07 AM
I too use 18 grs/158 LilGun as my hottest load in my 6" M19-4 Smith because of the low pressure the data shows. I get around 1360 with that load. I can get 1300 fps with 14.5 grs of W-296 but at higher pressures.....

I like LG a LOT for potent .357 mag loads! I think it's THE powder for heavy boolits in the .357...

FWIW,

Dennis

BTW, LG also outperforms W-296 in my .44 mag loads too. More velocity, less pressure...

rbstern
06-29-2006, 03:42 PM
Clark, are you saying the pressure traces show pressures other than what Hogdon publishes? Is a pressure trace a graph of the pressure curve?

Hogdon has ignored a couple of my emails questioning the 357 LilGun data, but, as others here have done, I've safely worked up to 18gr below a 158 cast as well as jacketed, and have no pressure problems.

Kicks pretty good in a 5lb lever carbine, though. About like a 30-30 in a lever carbine.

felix
06-29-2006, 03:47 PM
LilGun is one powder with far out different lot speeds. Be Careful! ... felix

Bucks Owin
06-29-2006, 03:48 PM
Clark, are you saying the pressure traces show pressures other than what Hogdon publishes? Is a pressure trace a graph of the pressure curve?

Hogdon has ignored a couple of my emails questioning the 357 LilGun data, but, as others here have done, I've safely worked up to 18gr below a 158 cast as well as jacketed, and have no pressure problems.

Kicks pretty good in a 5lb lever carbine, though. About like a 30-30 in a lever carbine.

FWIW,

22.0 grs of W-296 behind a .44 mag 250K bullet (actually 260 grs) gets me 1401 av fps and flat primers. The same charge of LG gets me 1453 fps av and moderate pressures and "happy" brass....
I'll admit that the ES and SD could be better with LG.....

I'd like to see this data too Clark...

Dennis

BTW, it's not just the .357/158 gr (10" test barrel) where LG shows remarkably lower pressures, it's everything from the .32 H&R to the .454 Casull.....

PatMarlin
06-30-2006, 12:20 AM
I have a RCBS 38-175-RN that is very accurate in my .357 Smith with Green Dot.

454PB
06-30-2006, 12:53 AM
I have no way to measure pressure, but I can tell you that the "traditional accepted pressure signs" and my chronographs tell me that Lil'Gun will outperform H-110 and WW 296 by a considerable margin in .44 magnum and .454 Casull. Although I have never used my press to compact a powder column, it's easy to get enough Lil'Gun into these cases to produce these results. Not so with H-110 or WW 296, I run out of case capacity before their velocity equals Lil'Gun.

I bought three 8 pound containers at just about the time that Hodgdon came out with the warning about a fast burning lot. All three containers that I have are the same lot number. As I recall, it was only the 1 pound containers that were recalled.

Clark
06-30-2006, 11:05 AM
http://www.mountainmolds.com/pics/psi_296_LG_trace.gif

felix
06-30-2006, 11:43 AM
Clark, does your comuter program, or is one available, to compute the area under the curve and associate that with the velocity? If so, then we might have something useful, to me anyway. ... felix

Bucks Owin
06-30-2006, 12:55 PM
I'm not sure I read the graph properly, but does the area where the lines drops off sharply signify the bullets passing the gap and then when the pressure spikes up again when the bullets are in the barrel?

Interesting but confusing....

Dennis

FWIW, my only .357 at present is a M19 which is not a vehicle to mess with redline loads. Hopefully by next year there'll be a 6.5" Blackhawk in the cabinet to resume playing with LilGun....I'm just happy to safely get 1300 fps out of the Smith!
Wonder how LG would perform in a 10" Ruger .357 Maximum?

Clark
07-17-2006, 05:32 AM
This is not where I got that graph, but it is where it must have came from originally:

http://www.mountainmolds.com/
click on "forum"
click on "pressure measurement"
click on "more 357 pressure data"


When the bullet leaves the bore, a vibration occurs that looks like a pressure spike.
I have designed a different peak sensing strain gauge amplifier of my own that blanks it out, but must be adjusted for how much time after trigger before blanking.

Bucks Owin
07-17-2006, 03:15 PM
I've used up my initial 1 lb bottle of LilGun but am anxious to budget an 8 lb jug. I can't seem to reach 1300 fps in my 6" M19 without some sticky cases using W-296, IMR 4227 or Hercules 2400. (I still have a supply of the old stuff) Of course, 1250 fps is not exactly a "wimpy" load either but besides the lower apparent pressures of LilGun at 1360 fps, the groups are tighter too...

It also gives me an honest 1450 fps under a 250K bullet in my 10" .44 mag Flattop without stressing it much compared to 1400 with equal charges of W-296....

I admit to not using much H-110 but doubt that it would perform much different than W-296 or am I missing something?

I look forward to seeing more data with LilGun, it seems a little scarce. I would also like to see John Linebaugh's thoughts on LG and whether he has been trying some in his potent .45 Colt loadings....

FWIW,

Dennis