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TXGunNut
09-25-2016, 11:31 PM
My brother called me on the way back from his deer lease today. It seems he's finally talked our younger cousin into going hunting and the cousin is bringing his 10 yr old son with him. We don't know if the youngster will actually shoot a deer this year but want to be ready. The J-word hunting loads I assemble for my brother's 30-06 are a bit heavy for the little guy but I figure I can put together a load that will put a S TX deer on the ground without making the little guy gun-shy.
I'm starting out with 12 grs of Unique under a GC'd 311041 and working up from there until I find a load that shoots in my test mule/loaner rifle. I'm thinking that 180 gr boolit at 1500fps or a bit better in a 9 pound rifle will do the job on a little S TX deer just fine without much recoil if the little guy does his part.
I've been kicking around a 30-06 project for awhile, guess I might as well get it rolling. Found 20 prepped brass while I was loading some 38WCF today so the rounds came together pretty easily.

Hick
09-25-2016, 11:43 PM
I haven't tried it with Unique-- but I've done something similar with my M1 at around 1500-1600 fps and the recoil is very low. The M1 is a similar weight-- so what you're looking at should work very nicely.

runfiverun
09-26-2016, 01:31 AM
you'll do fine.
your in 357 mag lever gun territory but with better penetration capability.

petroid
09-26-2016, 07:56 AM
My 300blk cast load replicates that exactly. 170 gr Lee FN cast of 5050 and gas checked weighs 185 gr and at 1550fps it puts them down easily inside 100 yards

Lonegun1894
09-26-2016, 11:45 AM
The load you're talking about sounds like you have nothing to worry about. I just hope the kids you're working this up for is capable, cause in my experience, if you have to work at talking the father into something, and the father tends to teach the son, well, you see where I'm going with this.

44man
09-26-2016, 02:03 PM
You can make things work but WHY? Kids are tough and we loved heavy recoil when young. The more the better. My love was a .300 Weatherby.
When in the army I loved the M1 but seen the Clow bothers get helmets bounced off every shot. I shot rifle grenades from my shoulder. The kid might show you how to shoot.

popper
09-26-2016, 02:17 PM
I get 1450 with a 170 PB like the 041 in 30/30. 9.5 unique - little stouter than a 22LR. 11 gave me pretty flat primers but not much more recoil. I'd plan on dacron for the larger case. ES cut 1/2 when I used dacron or tipped nose up first. Still wasn't bad @ 50 without dacron. Drop @ 100 isn't bad but youngster may have trouble figuring it. Be sure to mark the lite loads - sharpie on the FP works for me.

725
09-26-2016, 02:52 PM
Such a little guy, try and find a length of pull that works for him. He'll have enough to think about & overcome without trying to wrap himself around a long rifle. All your low recoil stuff sounds good to me, it's just a good fit that makes it all work so well.

Wolfer
09-26-2016, 05:23 PM
When I first started shooting cast in rifles I started with a 30-06 , 311041 and 16 gr of 2400. I worked up to 20 gr before accuracy fell off. 1800 fps, very accurate and pleasnt to shoot. Would be no problem for a small 10 yr old boy.

These were so pleasant to shoot I had my doubts about going hunting with them. Deer season rolled around and caught me unprepared so I just went with my light loads. First morning a deer comes thru about 60 yds. One shot and bang flop. The exit showed good expansion without a lot of bloodshot meat. A few days later I did the same thing again. A pickup load of deer and coyotes later and I have no doubts about my loads. I can shoot faster with slower powders but see no reason to.

dverna
09-26-2016, 05:52 PM
You can make things work but WHY? Kids are tough and we loved heavy recoil when young. The more the better. My love was a .300 Weatherby.
When in the army I loved the M1 but seen the Clow bothers get helmets bounced off every shot. I shot rifle grenades from my shoulder. The kid might show you how to shoot.

S squared...D squared...

Most people do not love recoil.

TXGunNut
09-26-2016, 09:09 PM
I don't know the kid (or much about kids in general) but he didn't like the 30-06 with standard loads. We've been working on this cousin and his twin for years but not working too hard. I don't know why he finally came around, just glad he did. I'm a little nervous about fit but apparently it's not an issue. IIRC he's pretty lanky, will leave that up to my brother and cousin.
I like the 2400 in 30-30 and 32 Special but I think I can go a little slower with the Unique. Thinking I'd have to get up around 1800 fps to make 2400 work, I don't think that would be a problem but wanted to try the Unique load first.
Thanks for all the pointers and encouragement, I know the round is adequate but it's something I've never actually done so wanted to do a reality check and make sure I hadn't missed anything.

44man
09-27-2016, 08:39 AM
Such a little guy, try and find a length of pull that works for him. He'll have enough to think about & overcome without trying to wrap himself around a long rifle. All your low recoil stuff sounds good to me, it's just a good fit that makes it all work so well.
I agree here, fit is so important and if correct he will handle recoil just fine. Little guys get beat when the stock is so long they have their head back at the heel. Ladies the same.

Half Dog
09-27-2016, 09:57 AM
30-30's are not too costly.

popper
09-27-2016, 10:33 AM
Load some of the unique and 2400/Rx7 loads. When my older GS was that age he didn't like his dad's 308MX and my unique 30/30 were 'anemic' in his mind. 2400 is still pretty good recoil for 1800 fps (like a 243) but he might handle it. At least he would have a choice.

TXGunNut
09-28-2016, 09:25 PM
30-30's are not too costly.

True. Seems I have a few exceptions to that observation though, lol. That's an option as well but for some reason they decided on the 30-06.
I have a nice reduced load for the 30-30 already worked out.

TCLouis
09-29-2016, 12:38 AM
Do a search on Seafire Blue Dot loads.

I had a good ACCURATE load for the 06, but did not write it down because I knew I would remember it . . . .

Loads for the 130 SSP and 150 GB 312 boolit.

Dang why have I gotten so sloppy with my note taking

I have NO idea what it was, but it shot well.

Then there are always the 4895 reduced loads.

TXGunNut
09-29-2016, 09:18 PM
Don't have any Blue Dot, always been intrigued by it. I do keep 4895 around and given it's history and the old cartridges I enjoy at moderate velocities I'm pretty sure I need to explore it more.
My load notes start circa 1985 but my early pistol loads and 30-06 loads are not recorded because I knew them off the top of my head. ;-) My 38 SWC and WC loads survive but I had to ponder the SWC load awhile before it came to me. My 45ACP load survived somehow but my 30-06 loads are gone. My earliest 30-06 notes deal with working up loads for the (then) new Varget before many loads were published. Even those are incomplete, load I came up with turned out to be over the max loads later published. Oh, well.
Back on topic, the weekend is upon us and I should be able to do some load testing. Need to check velocities on another project so might as well check these too.

44man
09-30-2016, 09:30 AM
It reminds me of my mailman, good friend that always brought his daughter. She was gun shy and used a .223, I did not approve. She shot great and hit a huge doe and lost her. There were 4 of us looking but no blood trail. I never seen a girl so dejected. She hung her head and had a hard time searching.
I went in a short time later and found her deer between 150-200 yards. Still fresh. I gutted and found the bullet only went 6". I convinced him to buy her a 30-30 and she has taken to it so easy. She has been happy ever since with many deer kills.
I would take a kid shooting more and they will ignore recoil shortly. But a loss in the field will hurt them worse and they might quit hunting with you. You need to look at the attitude after a shot, I don't think a kid should lose a deer. It has a large affect. Don't wimp them out, you cause more problems.
I hope you see where I am coming from, have you ever felt recoil with a shot on game? I hardly think so and you did not hear noise either.

NoAngel
09-30-2016, 09:36 AM
I did the same thing for a friends son in .308
A case full of Trail Boss and a properly sized cast bullet will put a deer down just fine.
The deer down here in the south-eastern US are NOT hard to kill. Why people think they need SO much gun to do it is a mystery to me.
I liked the Trail Boss load but that 12.0g of Unique will serve you well.
A 180g bullet at 1500 fps will be more than enough. Shove that load through a pair of lungs or a heart and you won't be walking much that day.

44man
09-30-2016, 09:57 AM
Not that easy and a 180 gr bullet will not open but do you talk a proper boolit or jacketed.
It is not the velocity it is the boolit.
Seen a little doe take 11 shots from a 12 ga with slugs, She might make 80#. I get upset when anyone says deer are easy to kill. Seen a small deer take 6 shots with a 30-06 in the lungs before giving up. 180 gr Silvertips.
I have lost deer with perfect hits with massive power and perfect hits, to even go there. I am not proud of a loss but it happens and I will admit it.
When you even get near the deer I have killed, you might know. When you lose as many from stupid you will learn more too.

ammohead
09-30-2016, 10:51 AM
44man,

20 posts and you have 4 of them. Thread starter stated plainly what he was looking for and all you can do is tell him something different and finish by telling him that he doesn't know enough to know what he wants. Now I see why you have 21,000+ posts. blah, blah, blah.

44man
09-30-2016, 11:26 AM
What he wants is low recoil but maybe a failure on game. Can you justify that? Sorry, one lost deer to a youngster is devastating. Nothing hurts a Youngster like a loss. I am not set to explain to them. I screwed up, so sad you can't see that. To turn a 30-06 to a .22 does no good if the kid loses the deer.
How many deer have you taken? How many did you lose? Would you give the bad experiences to a kid? NOT ME, What is wrong with a 30-30?
You are a Blah-blah-blah . But I do not hate you, just need more learning.

popper
09-30-2016, 11:42 AM
I recommend the filler for unique loads as I got ES of 48 without and 18 with. Doesn't make much difference @ 50 but further out you get a guessing game. Just stuff some dacron in, seat the boolit. I played with the youth 4895 loads a few years back, They worked OK, could probably use some dacron, same with LeverE (308W) BUT fps was down near unique loads so very inefficient powder wise. IIRC, took ~24gr 4895 to get 1400 something fps, 170 gr RD boolit. I mention this as I went on a youth hunt (9-14 yr olds mostly using 243) this Feb when GK got his first doe @100 but he did shoot a little low. Give him lots of ammo of various loads, marked well, to practice. He'll find one he likes.

jhalcott
09-30-2016, 01:18 PM
I always start a new shooter with light loads. Then work up to their comfort level. I stress accuracy over power always. Lots of practice before the hunt lessens the chance of a lost animal. I had a lot of archery targets, the kind that are pictures of deer, bear and other animals, life size! These were great for the new shooters. It seemed to take away the fear of shooting at a live target. I used a Contender carbine with a cut down stock for a lot of small framed shooters. The stock could be adjusted for length. This was the BEST device I found to enhance accuracy. I could change the barrel in a minute from .22 RF to 30-30 or 7TC/U. Loads could be adjusted to suit the shooter and/or game.
Most people do NOT realize how little power it takes to kill a deer, OR how much a solid lead bullet can penetrate. IF a bullet will go thru 14" of stacked wet newspaper AND stay in a 3" group @ 100 yards, you are good to go with it.

dk17hmr
09-30-2016, 02:28 PM
I don't have a pile of dead deer like some folks.

http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f208/dk17hmr/DSCN3774.jpg (http://s48.photobucket.com/user/dk17hmr/media/DSCN3774.jpg.html)

30-06, Unique, and the 311-165 ranch dog....seems to kill antelope just fine though

NoAngel
09-30-2016, 03:22 PM
I don't have a pile of dead deer like some folks.

30-06, Unique, and the 311-165 ranch dog....seems to kill antelope just fine though


Huh, imagine that. I bet you take an unfair advantage though and actually take the time to learn where to put the bullet instead of overcompensating.

Hamish
09-30-2016, 03:30 PM
What he wants is low recoil but maybe a failure on game. Can you justify that? Sorry, one lost deer to a youngster is devastating. Nothing hurts a Youngster like a loss. I am not set to explain to them. I screwed up, so sad you can't see that. To turn a 30-06 to a .22 does no good if the kid loses the deer.
How many deer have you taken? How many did you lose? Would you give the bad experiences to a kid? NOT ME, What is wrong with a 30-30?
You are a Blah-blah-blah . But I do not hate you, just need more learning.

JW,

Take the hint.

Though *you* may not have minded, and even liked recoil as a youngster, almost all children DO NOT and it SCARES MANY FROM FUTURE SHOOTING. The man asked for reduced loads.

Respect his wishes.

44man
09-30-2016, 05:42 PM
Maybe so but we were tougher and did not live with I pads or games. None of my friends were concerned with recoil and thought a gun with no kick was sad for anything except mice.
Our families never shot or hunted so we were on our own. My dad never even fished. We learned the wild and the ways with no help. Never had a game controller. We walked to school in -20° and snowstorms, rode balloon tire bikes 20 to 30 miles to fish or shoot. Now they close the school with an inch of snow.
Can you see a kid today when the country was young? Still need diapers in college. Need to use a girls rest room. Who do you raise? Girly man?
I had two daughters and both were Marines. They learned to shoot when young, never seen a whimper. Kim out shot all the men in basic. 12 GA or 8mm Mauser is fun.
Just what is the common question asked even from grown men? Need a light load! .44 kicks too much. 30-06 hurts! My skinny little girls would poke you and laugh. Matter tough guy?

dk17hmr
09-30-2016, 08:17 PM
Cool story bro.
Great info on unique & cast bullets in a 30-06.

rking22
09-30-2016, 09:32 PM
I took a like approach with my son. the 30-30 and 7.62x39 have a proven record on deer. I have taken several with a 10inch 30Herrett with 125 gr REM bullets. So I loaded him a 308 load with the 125 Rem at 2250fps. I have no idea what kind of group it shot at 100 yards, but was sub 1 inch at 50 yards. AND 50yd was the absolute max I would let him shoot a deer that year. I wasn't hunting with cast in 30 rifles at that time or would have just done up a 311041 at 1700 to make the 308 into a 30-30! My main point is to setup in such a way to limit his shot distance to less than 50 yards. Also spend enough time actually shooting the load and rifle from that same setup he will hunt from. I used paper archery targets to get him used to the correct bullet placement without a bullseye on the deer. I turned some at an angle so he got a feel of where to hold to put the bullet in the vitals from quartering in and out angles. He understood the concept and knew where to hold and had confidence long before we aimed at fur, 1 shot on opening day and 1 deer down.
Too many times parents set junior up for failure by putting them in a position to see deer that are beyond their capability to make a 100% solid hit. Keep the distance short, increases the excitement of the hunt and increases the success rate as well. A 180 FP at 1500 will do as well from a 30-06 at 50yards as it has for 100 years, from a 32-40 levergun!
Replicate the hunt setup as best as possible and keep the shot to short range. He may have to learn to pass on some shots,, that's not a bad thing at all :)
Just my thoughts from guiding my son and daughter into the world of hunting. Daughter used a 357 Handi with open sights, son used my Kimber with a 6X scope, both were solid hits and short trails.

Oklahoma Rebel
09-30-2016, 10:55 PM
SOMEONE MENTIONED USING TRAILBOSS, you might try that, small , fast loads scare me, too touchy as far as pressure. I do not disagree with lighter loads, just make sure to test thouroughly to make sure of penetration and expansion qualities, as far as 44man, ignore him, hes done the same thing to me, tries to make people feel dumb and all that, oh well, have a good one, and good luck to you!

SSGOldfart
09-30-2016, 11:19 PM
I like the Trail boss load as well,but my best near"no Recoil load has always been a 112 gr. 311316 with or without GC , with 13.5grs of IMR 4227. Works great and has no noticeable recoil,my Sako loves them too. I have a medical reason for light loads. I plan to hunt with this load. But I'll keep my shots under a 100 yards.it's a great squirrel load as well.

44man
10-01-2016, 09:11 AM
I took a like approach with my son. the 30-30 and 7.62x39 have a proven record on deer. I have taken several with a 10inch 30Herrett with 125 gr REM bullets. So I loaded him a 308 load with the 125 Rem at 2250fps. I have no idea what kind of group it shot at 100 yards, but was sub 1 inch at 50 yards. AND 50yd was the absolute max I would let him shoot a deer that year. I wasn't hunting with cast in 30 rifles at that time or would have just done up a 311041 at 1700 to make the 308 into a 30-30! My main point is to setup in such a way to limit his shot distance to less than 50 yards. Also spend enough time actually shooting the load and rifle from that same setup he will hunt from. I used paper archery targets to get him used to the correct bullet placement without a bullseye on the deer. I turned some at an angle so he got a feel of where to hold to put the bullet in the vitals from quartering in and out angles. He understood the concept and knew where to hold and had confidence long before we aimed at fur, 1 shot on opening day and 1 deer down.
Too many times parents set junior up for failure by putting them in a position to see deer that are beyond their capability to make a 100% solid hit. Keep the distance short, increases the excitement of the hunt and increases the success rate as well. A 180 FP at 1500 will do as well from a 30-06 at 50yards as it has for 100 years, from a 32-40 levergun!
Replicate the hunt setup as best as possible and keep the shot to short range. He may have to learn to pass on some shots,, that's not a bad thing at all :)
Just my thoughts from guiding my son and daughter into the world of hunting. Daughter used a 357 Handi with open sights, son used my Kimber with a 6X scope, both were solid hits and short trails.
OK, I go along with that. Much better explanation. But you have the key in hand, boolit performance. I never believed in how fast a boolit is or ME, it is how you make the boolit for the speed.
You might say I contradict myself, not so, it is based on what is shot and what the boolit does on deer. You know what bullets you needed so do the same with cast.
Sorry I get carried away with recoil questions since I teach with MORE recoil until comfort is in hand, then a light recoil is never a problem. For instance, a big kid is brought, I give him a .475 or .500 and with instruction, he gets used to it and hits. Then he can drop to a .454 or .44 and be amazing. Ever see a friends kid take pop cans off hand at 100 yards with his dad's .454?
The fear was evident when I put the .500 JRH in his hand until he had it in control, now he wants one.
I gave up working up to find working down is better. Best to get him used to a heavy 30-06 load first.
Judgment is on you. I would not give certain guns to a girl but a .44 never hurt one before dropping to a .357. A .357 before a .22 is something to be seen.
I never forget my soon to be wife with a .44. I had light loads and one time I stuck full house loads in a few chambers. After she shot I asked if anything was different. She said some were louder.
Get recoil out of mind first. It really works.

Digital Dan
10-01-2016, 07:42 PM
Light loads and kids are compatible, maybe necessary and maybe not. Everyone is different. If one has a youngster that is a cool shot, well trained and patient, a little bit of lead at modest velocity can do far more damage than some think. Couple of pics of a dead hog that suffered a head on with CB shorts at about 15-20 yards.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v298/muddler/pig%20pen/DSCN2968_zps85ccff04.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/muddler/media/pig%20pen/DSCN2968_zps85ccff04.jpg.html)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v298/muddler/pig%20pen/DSCN0550_zps4461c968.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/muddler/media/pig%20pen/DSCN0550_zps4461c968.jpg.html)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v298/muddler/pig%20pen/DSCN2958_zps7c69f49a.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/muddler/media/pig%20pen/DSCN2958_zps7c69f49a.jpg.html)

Bullet was recovered about 6" deep in neck muscle behind the skull.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v298/muddler/Guns/DSCN0520_zps7db471ca.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/muddler/media/Guns/DSCN0520_zps7db471ca.jpg.html)

TXGunNut
10-02-2016, 02:05 AM
I hope you see where I am coming from, have you ever felt recoil with a shot on game? I hardly think so and you did not hear noise either. -44man

I do, indeed. I also understand that a young shooter needs confidence to make a good shot on game and a load that beats him up will not inspire that confidence. Losing a deer is a rite of passage for most hunters but there are some very good trackers on this lease, I don't want this youngster to face the doubt of tracking his first deer.

TXGunNut
10-02-2016, 02:20 AM
I have a rather humbling admission to make. I dug out my "test mule/loaner rifle" and foamed the bore to remove all traces of copper. Not a trace of copper. Seems I need to start a notebook on my rifles! Range trip tomorrow/later today!

44man
10-02-2016, 09:29 AM
I hope you see where I am coming from, have you ever felt recoil with a shot on game? I hardly think so and you did not hear noise either. -44man

I do, indeed. I also understand that a young shooter needs confidence to make a good shot on game and a load that beats him up will not inspire that confidence. Losing a deer is a rite of passage for most hunters but there are some very good trackers on this lease, I don't want this youngster to face the doubt of tracking his first deer.
I understand but found they will lose fear once they see recoil does not hurt unless something does not fit.
It brings to mind an old timer that came here. I worked on his 30-30 for him. I had his scope on and sighted. I gave him an empty rifle to see what he did. PERFECT, did not move with a trigger break. Now the world went down the bucket with live rounds. I gained tater grooves all over my range. Now get real! A 30-30!!!! Yes an old guy that hunted a lot was afraid of the 30-30. But I only know of one deer he killed in many years. Accident, I call it.
It has never been the size of the gun, it is mental. Some can dry fire a .22 but put loads in and it is over.
Years of teaching has shown a kid can learn to love recoil very fast if there is no pain. But some don't care if blood flies.
Everyone is different of course but I never baby anyone. Those that can't handle a .44 mag are legion. I seen too many for sale with a few rounds missing out of the box. Elmer would cry. Today it is a little gun. I am old enough to see the .357 was the most powerful revolver on earth, what a sad few words.
Your kid will be a MAN soon. To see a man fear a 30-30 makes no sense. To say recoil will make a kid stop shooting or hunting is an excuse. The thrill of a deer close is ever lasting. He will not know the difference with the shot.
Were we tougher, I guess, results were related to what we felt. Ducks did not fall with wimp loads.

Don Fischer
10-02-2016, 12:27 PM
I've pretty much recently started casting for rifle's. been casting handgun's a long time, haven't learned a thing about it! But my old 30-06 has a pitted barrel so i started shooting cast in it. I have a lot of old Red Dot powder so started using it. With Red Dot, and likely others, there's a lot of mty space in a 30-06 case after you dump in the powder. So I ran a quarter sheet of TP in to hold the powder to the flash hole. Unintended side effect was the appearance of snow every time I fired a round. Really something to watch. My grandson is just 5 but I'd bet he could fire that rifle right now. Recoil is less than a 22RF if that's possible and very accurate at 50 yds. Told my son when he's ready I'll get it out for him to shoot, think he'll love it. I would guess that the same thing would happen with most fast powder's. Seem's I chronographed the load also and it did get to 1800fps! He hasn't fired anything center fire yet but thinking my 32 long would be a good place to start. This introducing kids to shooting is the perfect place for cast rifle bullet's. If they find out down the road they don't want to hunt with them, so what. Get's them started in the right direction with a center fire weapon and no danger of making them flinch or gun shy. Beside's, I think little people will thing the snow is cool!

TXGunNut
10-02-2016, 11:08 PM
Tried the three loads today @ 50 and regulated the sights for this load. All seemed to shoot quite well, was tough to pick the best but went with 12.5 grs. Will test again @ 100 & hopefully call it good. Easiest job of load development in quite some time. Found 20 more good cases, love it when a plan comes together!
Forgot to mention; I really enjoyed shooting those light loads in my heavy old rifle. Very pleasant.

rking22
10-03-2016, 08:43 PM
Nothing like watching the bullet hole appear under the crosshairs :)

Eamonn
10-04-2016, 12:32 AM
I used paper archery targets to get him used to the correct bullet placement without a bullseye on the deer. I turned some at an angle so he got a feel of where to hold to put the bullet in the vitals from quartering in and out angles.

If you hang a bell a bit behind to simulate the vitals you can walk around and get audible hits with an air rifle or a .22 from different angles.

rking22
10-04-2016, 12:43 AM
Hey I like that idea !!!! Mine are grown , but will be passing it along to others as they start down this road, thanks.

Eamonn
10-04-2016, 02:20 AM
No worries, I got it off of YouTube :-)

TXGunNut
10-04-2016, 10:09 PM
Nothing like watching the bullet hole appear under the crosshairs :)

Almost, but not quite. If I would pull down a bit on the fore end I probably could. ;-)
Y'all lighten up on my friend 44man, please. We disagree on some stuff but I value his opinion regardless. Recoil, for me, is part of the fun...up to a point, of course. A big boom and a puff of smoke to go with it and I'm grinning for days. But this isn't about me, or even about my kid. I was asked to put together some low recoil hunting loads and with everyone's help I think this project is coming along nicely.

44man
10-05-2016, 09:09 AM
And you will do just fine too, after all the 30-30 and far less have taken deer forever.
But I bet we will agree it is how the boolit is tailored.
I never get upset because you are all good fellas and I am always sorry if I say anything that upsets anyone. I have requirements.
Match the velocity/boolit to twist.
Make the boolit work.
Get the best accuracy you can, I have experienced hits 10" from the aim point before (.44 mag Marlin) Placement is primary so all of you are correct in that point but the boolit MUST work. Shoulder hits can take a different boolit then behind the shoulders. A boolit that works at 50 yards might not at 100+.
I got to be an old goat---well, from getting to be an old goat!
Turned into a revolver hunter when a rifle was too easy after a lifetime of archery but my .44, .475 and .500 JRH will be pried from my cold dead hands. Yes they recoil but nothing larger is ever needed.
Another reason is I hate to carry a rifle with old age and dragging sucks. I shot a huge doe last season too far from the lane and drug her 400 yards or so, got out of line to the lane. I sure did not want a rifle to hassle.
But I commend anyone to get a youngster to shoot and hunt, we have to keep it going. If it means reduced recoil, do what you must.
I had no mentors and a ton of wrong info. I wish someone could have shortened the learning curve.
I hope you don't see personal. It is general. It is from experience with well over 560 deer kills. Lost count! Not important, just results with each caliber and I still learn myself. One deer lost from the wrong choice is one too many and I have done it too many times.

TXGunNut
10-06-2016, 10:15 PM
Yes, putting a lot of thought into this load and a bit of research as well. It's difficult to get expansion in our little S TX white tail deer, boolit I'm loading should be up for a shoulder or a heart-lung shot. Doing a bit more testing this weekend, if all goes well will load up some hunting ammo and get it and the rifle down to Houston in time for youth hunt weekend.

kens
10-06-2016, 10:23 PM
30-30's are not too costly.
My favorite deer load is a .308 case loaded to what I call .30-30 +P. (entry level .308 loads)
The ballistics chart sez Im throwing a 150gr bullet at 75yards what a off the shelf .30-30 does at the muzzle.
Soft recoil, and it turns a deer inside out, loaded with a .30-30 bullet.

44man
10-10-2016, 09:41 AM
Yes, putting a lot of thought into this load and a bit of research as well. It's difficult to get expansion in our little S TX white tail deer, boolit I'm loading should be up for a shoulder or a heart-lung shot. Doing a bit more testing this weekend, if all goes well will load up some hunting ammo and get it and the rifle down to Houston in time for youth hunt weekend.
I wish you the best and to bring a new hunter in makes you very important. The worst thing ever is for a kid to lose his/her first animal. I have seen it with the wrong guns and bullets. Yes bullets too.
The pain of a young girl can't be felt. But I did find it a little later and got it to her.
You have work and pride to make it right. I am with you and want to hear results.

DerekP Houston
10-10-2016, 10:05 AM
If you hang a bell a bit behind to simulate the vitals you can walk around and get audible hits with an air rifle or a .22 from different angles.

Dang thats a great idea.

taco650
10-10-2016, 11:03 PM
Almost, but not quite. If I would pull down a bit on the fore end I probably could. ;-)
Y'all lighten up on my friend 44man, please. We disagree on some stuff but I value his opinion regardless. Recoil, for me, is part of the fun...up to a point, of course. A big boom and a puff of smoke to go with it and I'm grinning for days. But this isn't about me, or even about my kid. I was asked to put together some low recoil hunting loads and with everyone's help I think this project is coming along nicely.

Agreed! 44man is opinionated but his advice comes from his many years of deer hunting experience. Do I agree with him all the time? No and I have opinions of my own that I will rarely back down from. However, he's given me great advice for my own 44 mag loads and they've been spot on. Read his writings with a grain of salt if you have to but respect his experience.

TXGunNUt, looking forward to seeing what you finish with because I've been searching for a boolit load for my old, shot out Ruger M-77RS in 30-06. My boolit is the Lee 180R which isn't the best I know but its what I have.

TXGunNut
10-10-2016, 11:09 PM
I wish you the best and to bring a new hunter in makes you very important. The worst thing ever is for a kid to lose his/her first animal. I have seen it with the wrong guns and bullets. Yes bullets too.
The pain of a young girl can't be felt. But I did find it a little later and got it to her.
You have work and pride to make it right. I am with you and want to hear results.


Thanks, load showing promise but needs one more (I hope!) tweak before I take/send it south with the rifle. Just occurred to me I probably have the easy job here. My brother is taking the youngster and his dad hunting. Will be the first hunt for both of them. My brother and his BIL are excellent trackers, a well-hit deer will most likely be recovered.

TXGunNut
10-10-2016, 11:15 PM
TXGunNUt, looking forward to seeing what you finish with because I've been searching for a boolit load for my old, shot out Ruger M-77RS in 30-06. My boolit is the Lee 180R which isn't the best I know but its what I have.

IIRC the Lee 180R is pretty similar to the Lyman 311041. Will have to check tomorrow, been a long ugly day and herbal tea is kicking in and I'll be hunting a pillow soon. I think the powder charge is correct but I need a bit of tweaking on the crimp & COAL.

35 shooter
10-11-2016, 01:56 AM
Thanks, load showing promise but needs one more (I hope!) tweak before I take/send it south with the rifle. Just occurred to me I probably have the easy job here. My brother is taking the youngster and his dad hunting. Will be the first hunt for both of them. My brother and his BIL are excellent trackers, a well-hit deer will most likely be recovered.

Hope the little fella gets a nice one right off the bat!

44man
10-11-2016, 11:37 AM
Now, not only a new kid but a new dad hunting also. Just how wonderful is THAT?

taco650
10-11-2016, 10:29 PM
I didn't get interested in hunting until I was 12 or 13 then I started talking to my dad about it. Turns out he had hunted regularly until I was about 5 or 6 then quit. Not sure why, he'd gotten transferred to a new office across the state so maybe with the new job responsibilities, hunting got put aside. Anyway, when I was 14 he agreed to start up again and take me with him. Those were some of the best times of my life because I got to see my dad in a different light and it was really cool! I hope its the same for this youngster.

TXGunNut
10-12-2016, 09:48 PM
Now, not only a new kid but a new dad hunting also. Just how wonderful is THAT?



Yes, sir. I think that's pretty special. The other twin lives up here by me, may be able to get him out there someday buy he's busy making babies these days.

TXGunNut
10-16-2016, 06:17 PM
Well, my part in this project is done. Loaded ten rounds yesterday with final (I hoped) adjustments and took them to the range today. This rifle (Annie) really showed what she was made of! Had some gusty, swirly winds to make things interesting but she shot just fine. Load possibly needs a little tweaking as today's group was about 2 1/4" by less than an inch. Last two rounds after a cool-down (and backing the scope down to 3X) went into about 1/2" dead center so I called it good and came home to load 30 rounds. My brother came up Friday to help with a project so I sent him home with Annie and some soft recoiling, hard hitting boolits. We also shot a couple of rounds of trap and he sighted in a new scope so it was a very good trip.
We have a youth weekend here in TX in two weeks so they might get to shoot a round or two before they head to the lease, if not there's a sight-in range there. I wish I could be there but I'm sure I'll get a full report.

TXGunNut
10-29-2016, 10:38 PM
Tonight in Bee County, Texas, a very happy ten year old boy will go to bed in deer camp thinking about a nice fat buck he harvested earlier today. It made my day to get the news and I wish I had permission to post his beautiful smile here, I'll work on that. Looks like a nice heart/lung shot put this young man's first deer down fast. Cell phone reception down there is spotty but will post more details when available.
Thank you all for your help and encouragement, you've helped make one young man, his parents and many friends and family happy. This is what it's all about, today we did a very good thing.

35 shooter
10-29-2016, 11:36 PM
Congratulations on a job well done all around. I'm sure he'll never forget this one.

TXGunNut
10-30-2016, 11:25 AM
Got a pic PM'd to me last night, my brother was showing off a stack of Dutch ovens with coals glowing on the lids. I'm betting the youngster will never forget that supper either, my brother is an excellent camp cook on top of being a good hunting guide.

TXGunNut
10-30-2016, 05:34 PM
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10211413916530154&set=pcb.10211413916890163&type=3

Hope this works!

TXGunNut
10-30-2016, 05:48 PM
Now for all the details you've been waiting for, finally got a briefing from my brother. Little buck was about 80 yds out, Tanner hit him a little far back but he only ran about 20 yards before dropping. They got to see lots of deer and other wildlife all weekend, even got a little dove & quail hunting in. My brother was a little surprised by one feature of the low-recoil round; deer didn't spook when Tanner fired & missed. As expected when he connected the buck had two good holes, exit only somewhat bigger than the entrance.
Weather was a bit warm in S TX yesterday so the little buck had to go into the cooler right away. Tanner wasn't too big on that aspect of the hunt but we was a good helper and my brother helped Ted dress and quarter the deer and get it into the cooler. Two new hunters got an awesome first hunt thanks to my brother, they even got to see a great demo of Dutch oven cooking.

Texas by God
10-30-2016, 07:38 PM
And thanks to you the hunting community has grown. Good work! I taught my kids to shoot my 22-250 on the bench with .222 level loads. I then resighted it with my 63 gr Sisk load @ 3500 fps. They all got their deer with one shot. Confidence in your ability is paramount. By the way they were 12 years old in each instance and freezing to death in our brutal 40 degree winter- till they saw the game! Best, Thomas.

TCLouis
10-30-2016, 11:23 PM
I have about decided LOW NOISE is almost as important as low recoil to start a new shooter.

To me a bunch of low powered cast boolits down range and work the load up to the power needed for your type of hunting is a good plan.

Digital Dan
10-31-2016, 12:32 AM
Noise....a good reason to use a suppressor when practical. They take some of the sting out of recoil as well.

Eamonn
10-31-2016, 12:51 AM
Also less muzzle rise for quicker follow up and much less blinding muzzle flash in the dark.

44man
10-31-2016, 09:43 AM
Great to hear. Noise confuses me with deer. Seems a high frequency is worse. I have dropped deer with a very loud revolver or shotgun and the deer with the one I shot did not leave. I had a herd bed near the one I dropped. It is funny to get out of the stand and wave my arms to get deer to leave.
Some of my bows have been very quiet to me but turned deer inside out. Had a crossbow in Ohio that sounded like a house falling but it never made a deer jump the string.
A bullet breaking the sound barrier is bad and worse then muzzle blast.

TXGunNut
10-31-2016, 09:12 PM
Deer are funny about what spooks them. A few years ago I shot a little spike at first light and he dropped in his tracks so I just kicked back to see what else would show up. Within minutes more deer came by and only one seemed to notice the recently deceased deer in the middle of the clearing. I have a video of a silly buck that walked within a few feet of me last year while I was clucking my tongue at him. My brother was working on a feeder behind me and I think the deer was more interested in getting the feeder fixed than anything else that was going on. IIRC my freezer was already full from the previous trip so I was just enjoying the scenery.
I hope Santa Claus brings the little guy a .22 for Christmas. I hope I get my rifle back, lol. ;-)

44man
11-01-2016, 10:02 AM
I had just dropped a doe and shortly a nice buck came and he seen the doe and did his best to make her get up. Since we can shoot two a day, he met Mr. freezer too.
I suppose it was 30 seconds to a minute between shots.
I know every single hunter has heard a close shot and watched for a deer to come from there. Doesn't work, I never, ever seen it happen. Only hit deer have been seen and recovered. Now if a guy gets up and spooks them or deer see him, they will backtrack to avoid him.
I did that snow tracking with other hunters in the woods. At every opening they crossed I would stand and wait. Deer run into another hunter and come back to me.
Another thing to know is if you spook a bunch, they run in all directions and get separated. Sit tight, some will come back to find where the rest went. White tails, although herd animals do not stay together when spooked and cover miles together. They split and lose each other.
I have made use of grunt calls but a doe always ran in followed by a smaller buck, guess she wanted better!
Another thing that works if early is a fawn in distress. I used to sit my woods with a fox call and if I seen a deer out in the back I would blow it to sound like a fawn. She would jump the fence to see and come real close, as she would turn to leave I blew again and she would come back, over and over. But it was not deer season so I just played around. It does not work well once fawns get so old. But a real early season it can pay off.
If you see deer too far or run into some close and they don't run, stamp your foot lightly at them and make the same moves they make. Do exactly what they do when they look at you, never freeze up, it will scare them to run behind brush to watch you and all you see is tails when you move. The light foot stamp is a recognition signal, NOT a danger sign. It has been written scent is thrown that other deer avoid, what jerk figured that out? If a deer wants past you and thinks you are a strange deer, she will stamp HARD only to tell you to get out of the way. They will not walk past a decoy either so where you put it is important for archery, they stay on the other side. Put it too far and you don't get close shots.
But stamping my foot at a deer has drawn them over 100 yards to my gun.
I have had herds around me and I can walk and move among them. Kneel down and nock an arrow and use your fist to tamp the ground. I don't think they can tell if you are a man or deer so turn yourself into a deer.
Even at dark they can't see each other and all deer in front have white tails up so others follow, last deer in line has tail down.
What I learned has filled my freezers forever. I know deer.

44man
11-01-2016, 10:26 AM
When our tree has apples, deer come in the yard and will walk past me to the tree. I have my little dog on her leash. My dog sits to watch, deer do not fear her at all. We get 10' from deer, pick apples and drop them at their feet. Given time I could get them to eat from my hand.
I worry about them now and quit hunting my land but those around will kill them anyway. My hope is some will make it. It is hard to kill a deer that comes to me and my dog. I could never kill a tame rabbit for meat. Best meat ever but I would buy it first. Can't shoot squirrels off the bird feeder and make piles of walnuts for them. It has to be fair chase.
I hunted pheasants long ago on public areas in Ohio where they stock birds. I would see one and chase it to get in the air. Others sluiced them on the ground. Birds were stupid and bunched up.
I seen one guy every time, had a Springer that jumped birds. He busted the bird at 20' with a 12 and put the mess in his coat. I guess he loved to eat shot swarming in mush.

44man
11-01-2016, 10:37 AM
Maybe I am crazy but I was a HUNTER first. I did take advantage of learning them and have no excuses. I still get a few rags but it is for RECIPES mostly. Follow the hunting and you will not eat.
We buy the Washington post too but it is because they have a large comic section.

Redleg11b
11-01-2016, 07:37 PM
TXGunNut, I read the first page noticing the date stamps and skipped to the end to see if it had been resolved. Very happy to hear of the youngn's successful hunt.

I'm with TCLouis on the noise too. My son is more a fan of the quieter .357 rifle (1690 fps) than the 30-30 reduced loads (1820 fps and less recoil).

LeadPoisonTX
11-05-2016, 12:58 PM
This was a great story with a happy ending, and lots of valuable lessons learned (for me).
Thanks for sharing. Congratulations on a job well done. Have a great hunting season.

TXGunNut
11-05-2016, 11:41 PM
This was a great story with a happy ending, and lots of valuable lessons learned (for me).
Thanks for sharing. Congratulations on a job well done. Have a great hunting season.

Thanks, glad to share. Tanner's dad killed a nice 8 pt this morning so it has been a very good season for two first time hunters. My season is off to a great start and I haven't even headed for deer camp!

SSGOldfart
11-08-2016, 02:03 AM
Deer are funny about what spooks them. A few years ago I shot a little spike at first light and he dropped in his tracks so I just kicked back to see what else would show up. Within minutes more deer came by and only one seemed to notice the recently deceased deer in the middle of the clearing. I have a video of a silly buck that walked within a few feet of me last year while I was clucking my tongue at him. My brother was working on a feeder behind me and I think the deer was more interested in getting the feeder fixed than anything else that was going on. IIRC my freezer was already full from the previous trip so I was just enjoying the scenery.
I hope Santa Claus brings the little guy a .22 for Christmas. I hope I get my rifle back, lol. ;-)
Sounds like he needs a 30-06. Now that they are hunting it's time to introduce him to handloading so he can feed that 06, next time you might want to try the old Army Marksmanship gallery load Lyman 311316- 112gr GC Boolit,over 14grs of IMR 4227,almost recoil free in the 30-06,I trained many soldiers to shoot with that load.
Again Congrats

FergusonTO35
11-10-2016, 10:13 PM
Fastest deer kill I ever made was with my .257 Roberts with a 117 grain Sierra at somnolent .250 Savage power level. Standard heart/lung shot, no fancy head or spine stuff. With a 24" magnum contour barrel and Howa 1500 long action the crosshairs barely rise when the round fires. Most of my deer killed have been with the .30 WCF and a 150 grain Hornady or Sierra at around 2000 fps. All but one or two were one shot kills.

I started hunting deer with the aforementioned Howa which began life as a .30'06. I hated practicing with it, too much recoil and muzzle jump. Most deer I took with it I would shoot twice because I knew my marksmanship was not so good. I switched to .30 WCF in lever actions with my own reloads in 2002 and haven't looked back. I actually enjoy shooting this cartridge and have alot of confidence in it.

When I decided to get a .257 bolt gun I found that the cheapest way would be to have the Howa rebarrelled. An excellent decision and I don't miss the hard kicking original chambering at all. BTW I wasn't raised in the suburbs on video games, I grew up on a farm and have been hunting and fishing since before I learned to read.

TXGunNut
11-17-2016, 11:43 PM
Sounds like he needs a 30-06. Now that they are hunting it's time to introduce him to handloading so he can feed that 06, next time you might want to try the old Army Marksmanship gallery load Lyman 311316- 112gr GC Boolit,over 14grs of IMR 4227,almost recoil free in the 30-06,I trained many soldiers to shoot with that load.
Again Congrats


Thanks.
Maybe so, getting them into reloading may be a bit of overload at this point. I think a good .22 will give both of them some much-needed time but like most folks here I don't shoot much .22.
No experience with the 311316, wondering if the GC is necessary and it's available as a PB. One of my projects is a low-cost plinker load for the 30WCF, maybe the 30-06 as well.

popper
11-18-2016, 11:01 AM
TX - I got a couple hundred of the Hornady 110gr plinkers you can have. I used to shoot them, sort of accurate at 50 and slower fps. I'm finding something like the 041 san GC are pretty good ~1200 fps or my PB version ~ 1500. More Pb but decent accuracy ~ 100. I'm using uniqe bet 4227, Rx7, 2400 work also. Thinking of trying hp38 sometime.

TXGunNut
11-19-2016, 01:26 PM
Thanks, popper, I have a few of the half-jacket plinkers I played with early in my career. I loaded them over a full charge and somehow connected with a crow once while out fooling around. Nothing but feathers, lol.
I'm thinking about getting a PB 041, thought pretty hard about getting two cavities of each when I ordered this one. Never got around to using 2400 in this project, it was my "plan B" powder because I thought it would come into it's sweet spot a bit faster than I wanted to go. You can bet I'll be looking @ 2400 when I start looking for my own hunting load for the 30-06. I'm thinking 17-18 grs will get me to around 1800 fps, don't see the need to go much faster for my hunting.

SSGOldfart
11-19-2016, 01:42 PM
It's funny how we perceive a hunting round needing to be hotter round,I never figured out why? If one can kill a deer with a 243caliber 70-100 gr.bullet,why a 308 needs a 150-180 gr. Bullet travelling twice as fast. Both rounds use the same case.
Indeed speed kills, but it also increases recoil.Please let us know how you project turns out.

SSGOldfart
11-19-2016, 01:45 PM
Your okay with out the GC,I'm using BLL too.I plan on trying PC.

TXGunNut
11-19-2016, 01:58 PM
It's funny how we perceive a hunting round needing to be hotter round,I never figured out why? If one can kill a deer with a 243caliber 70-100 gr.bullet,why a 308 needs a 150-180 gr. Bullet travelling twice as fast. Both rounds use the same case.
Indeed speed kills, but it also increases recoil.Please let us know how you project turns out.

The only reason I'm looking for a bit more velocity for my 30-06 CB hunting load is to maybe get a bit more energy for shots out to 150 yds or maybe to punch thru a bigger hog. Not convinced that another 300 fps is really necessary but that's what I'm kicking around at the moment. That's a different project with different goals so will start another thread about it after hunting season.

MarkP
11-19-2016, 02:27 PM
My daughter wanted to go deer hunting when she was 8, I promised to take her if she could consistently hit water filled pop bottles placed at various distances up to 175 yds. We started out shooting from a bench at paper using a 243 loaded with RCBS 244-95 FN over about 15 gr of Trailboss. Recoil was very similar to her 2-1/2 lb Cricket (22 LR) then switched to using 58 gr V-Max over a full case of Trailboss. The V-max's worked great for shooing bottles from various shooting positions using a bi-pod.

For hunting loads we used an 87 gr about 350 fps slower than max load I sighted the rifle in. I took her out when she was 9 we saw a few but did not take any shots, she learned a lot that year and got her first deer the next year when she was 10. She is now 12 and is now shooting full loads with 100 gr jacketed bullets. I still use a reduced load for her practice, however she did fine shooting pheasants with 3" 20 ga (7/8 oz @1,500 fps).

My son (2 yrs younger than his sister) is more of a shooter than a hunter he wanted to shoot my 350 Rem mag last winter, I was reluctant to let him shoot it since all of the loads I had were 247 gr cast at 2,000 fps. He shot it while standing I had the butt of the gun in the crotch of my thumb while standing behind him. After he shot he asked if he could shoot it by himself, I set it up on a bench with a bi-pod so he could stand. The scope is 1-3x so the eye relief is 4-1/2 to 5 inches otherwise I would not let him shoot it. He shot about 7 or 8 times at a gong at 165 yds and hit it every time. I was worried he would develop a flinch so I closed the bolt on a empty chamber and when he pulled the trigger no flinch.

He got his first deer last Sunday using the 350 Rem Mag, I ran out of time so we ended up using a Hornday 180 SSPB over 45 gr of RL-7.

Taking my daughter out tonight, rifle season ends this Sunday, then Blackpowder opens Dec 1st.

180983180984

TXGunNut
11-19-2016, 03:04 PM
Good job, Mark! Lots of good info in that post, thanks. Hope y'all have a great hunt tonight.

ammohead
11-19-2016, 03:11 PM
My daughter wanted to go deer hunting when she was 8, I promised to take her if she could consistently hit water filled pop bottles placed at various distances up to 175 yds. We started out shooting from a bench at paper using a 243 loaded with RCBS 244-95 FN over about 15 gr of Trailboss. Recoil was very similar to her 2-1/2 lb Cricket (22 LR) then switched to using 58 gr V-Max over a full case of Trailboss. The V-max's worked great for shooing bottles from various shooting positions using a bi-pod.

For hunting loads we used an 87 gr about 350 fps slower than max load I sighted the rifle in. I took her out when she was 9 we saw a few but did not take any shots, she learned a lot that year and got her first deer the next year when she was 10. She is now 12 and is now shooting full loads with 100 gr jacketed bullets. I still use a reduced load for her practice, however she did fine shooting pheasants with 3" 20 ga (7/8 oz @1,500 fps).

My son (2 yrs younger than his sister) is more of a shooter than a hunter he wanted to shoot my 350 Rem mag last winter, I was reluctant to let him shoot it since all of the loads I had were 247 gr cast at 2,000 fps. He shot it while standing I had the butt of the gun in the crotch of my thumb while standing behind him. After he shot he asked if he could shoot it by himself, I set it up on a bench with a bi-pod so he could stand. The scope is 1-3x so the eye relief is 4-1/2 to 5 inches otherwise I would not let him shoot it. He shot about 7 or 8 times at a gong at 165 yds and hit it every time. I was worried he would develop a flinch so I closed the bolt on a empty chamber and when he pulled the trigger no flinch.

He got his first deer last Sunday using the 350 Rem Mag, I ran out of time so we ended up using a Hornday 180 SSPB over 45 gr of RL-7.

Taking my daughter out tonight, rifle season ends this Sunday, then Blackpowder opens Dec 1st.

180983180984

A excellent and much needed story on this thread. Two different approaches to bringing youngsters into the sport of big game hunting. Both successful and neither more worthy than the other. Which ever method works for the purpose of preserving our American heritage of hunting on public land for any man. As hunters we all need to embrace whatever method is successfully used to continue this precious right and not nit pick which is better based on personal feelings. There is WAY too much emphasis on this board of what makes us different than what makes us the same. In hunting as well as politics we can end divisiveness by insisting that everyone think the way we do, or by accepting that others peoples opinions might be as worthy as our own to achieve the same ends. May our country find the strength to achieve these ends as you have.

robg
11-19-2016, 03:48 PM
well done ,horses for courses everybodys different

MarkP
11-19-2016, 11:43 PM
My daughter spotted a nice buck coming down the hill from behind, he stopped about 40 yds from us. (behind large post on right in picture above) We watched for about 4 minutes then she slowly turned into position. Unfortunately he spooked and trotted off 30 yds and momentarily stopped and turned sideways. He then ran near the top of the hill and stood there for several minutes, she knows to pass on a shot like that.

Planning to go out tomorrow AM.

TXGunNut
11-20-2016, 09:34 PM
A excellent and much needed story on this thread. Two different approaches to bringing youngsters into the sport of big game hunting. Both successful and neither more worthy than the other....ammohead

Actually we took the same approach, we evaluated the situation and did what it took to make the hunt successful for a youngster. This thread is about the kids and preserving the way of life we love. It's not about any one of us or our personal feelings. My brother read this thread today, enjoyed it and was impressed by all the helpful posts. Said we had a nice discussion group. Couldn't agree more!