Multi ball loads

[KReider477]

176621I saw the attached image while reading about 45-70 loads and was curious to see if anyone has any more information or whether it would even work from a rifle. and what the accuracy and impact patterns would be. Or if the 3 balls would just collide and destroy each other and your barrel.

I also do understand that this has been tried a lot throughout our military history including rounds like the .25-06 duplex round intended for the M1 Garand at one point (this was post WW2 when the idea of a smaller cartridge began coming up). I know it is also prevalent in a lot of shotgun loads for self defense.

Thank Karl

[Tatume]

I believe Paul Mathews experimented with 45-70 multi-ball loads. When I get home I'll look it up and let you know what he had to say.

[KReider477]

Thanks. By nature I'm very curious and this is something that is intriguing to me.

Thanks

[Mark Daiute]

this is covered nicely in the book by Spence Wolfe.

[Blackwater]

It's not quite the same, but back when my son was very young, he put in wanting to go deer hunting with me. He was awfully small at the time, but had shown a great deal of discipline for his age, especially around guns, and he always listened and did things however I taught him to. So, I got a .410 break open type single shot, and cut the barrel and stock off to fit him at the time. Then I loosened the crimp on some 3" shells, and dumped out the shot. Then I dropped in some .380" RB's, and used corn meal as a filler. These 4 balls weighed a tad more than the normal load, but I looked at the gun (built on a 12 ga. frame with very thick chamber area) and figured it'd be safe.

I tried them at 50 yds. and was very surprised when they printed all 4 balls in an area that could be covered with your flattened hand with the thumb sticking out. I figured they'd do well on a deer, but unfortunately, we never got a chance to try it out. Not long after, I got a little Baby Rolling Block in .22 Hornet by Navy Arms, and had it rebarreled to .357 because it had excessive headspace. That became his "deer rifle" very quickly, and that thing would really shoot! When I got a Mini-14, he quickly claimed that and neglected the little Rolling Block because it was a single shot. He was a young but very much budding marksman with all these guns.

But maybe that might give you a little extra hope for your RB loads in .45/70. Your barrel is rifled, I'm sure, and that might spread the balls a little more than a smoothbore would, but I'd say there's a good chance, at least, that they'll do something similar. You may have to tinker with the loading to get it to do really well, but I have a notion that it will surprise you given that little tinkering and experimenting. Chrono will be a big asset in finding a good load. Not sure what you'll do with it, but they're interesting at the very basic minimum. And you never really know when that kind of info and experience may help you some time. Good luck, and let us know how it turns out on target and chronograph. I'm looking forward to reading your report already.

[Tackleberry41]

I have an article somewhere in my computer. I made up some double ball loads for 45 colt. They worked, both hit in the same spot. Not sure what they would do an equal weight bullet wouldn't. And you can only drive them so hard due to the small surface area of the ball that touches the rifling.

I did try the same thing in a 410, and they did pretty well. Both hit pretty close to each other. But it has a choke so sort of straightens them out. I was using .395 RB in brass cases, not going to fit in a plastic wad. Would make a pretty nasty load against something with 2 legs.

[Digital Dan]

Paco Kelly did some work with the .45-70 and multiball loads, 3 if I recall correctly. No specifics recalled nor do I have copy of the article. Google might be your friend there.

I did some 2 ball loads with the .44 mag in a rifle, paper patched. Worked quite well actually, about a 6" group at 50 yards consistently oriented in the X-ring for one and at 10 o'clock for the second. Aggregate of ball weight was about 240 grains as I recall, the loads were not mild. Also shot a single ball load one day, it may be in low earth orbit. Never hit the target.

[Tatume]

Paul Mathews had a short chapter on this. He used two pistol bullets. Impacts were two inches apart at 50 yards.

[JSnover]

I had decent results on the target when I tried that with a 6" .357 but 1/3 of the cases split. These were not heavy loads.
At the time I was a very 'green' handloader and could have made any number of mistakes. I found out later the cylinder was out of time, so my theory was the first ball hit the forcing cone before the second and third had cleared the case mouths, causing a pressure spike.

[KReider477]

Blackwater,
Thank you for the post. I am already checking the gun shops in the area trying to find .459 sized round balls as I have a Marlin 1895 that will be the test gun for this. Sadly I don't have a chronograph but might be able to convince the firearms instructor here at the Department to let me borrow theirs. It will be a little while before I can get to this as Marlin is currently repairing my rifle but that doesn't mean I cant get the balls loaded.

I have found some more write ups on these and so far have only found black powder loads. Because of that I'm thinking of going with a slower burning powder; something along the lines of Unique which I have a couple pounds of. I will also need to get my hands on a better expander die to get these to seat so far down.

I'm also thinking of doing an over powder wad, perhaps just punched cardboard like an old shot gun wad.

[Tatume]

Paul Mathews used powder much slower than Unique.

[Echo]

My thinking on this agrees with 'much slower powder'. Unique might give such a sharp push that the balls would be compressed somewhat into cylinder-like projectiles, not necessarily a bad thing, but... Try 4227, or even 3031 - and I would want to get some sort of loob, just a dab, between each ball. And an over-powder card wad. Just my thoughts...

[KReider477]

My thinking on this agrees with 'much slower powder'. Unique might give such a sharp push that the balls would be compressed somewhat into cylinder-like projectiles, not necessarily a bad thing, but... Try 4227, or even 3031 - and I would want to get some sort of loob, just a dab, between each ball. And an over-powder card wad. Just my thoughts...

I really do agree on the over power wad and the slow powder. I'm not 100 percent on the lube between balls but they will be lubed (either tumble or sort of dry). I'll have to hunt for some of the listed powders or other slow ones.

[Bookworm]

I'll have to hunt for some of the listed powders or other slow ones.
I saw a pound of 3031 at Wal-Mart today...you may not have to hunt hard.

[KReider477]

Your Walmart carries powder? You are a lucky man. We only have one place in our town that sells powder.

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[Bookworm]

Yep, powder at Wal-Mart. Sometimes. And primers. Fewer times.
They carry a small selection of some of the most popular powders - Unique, Universal, Titegroup, and some rifle powders - Reloader 7, 19, H4895, 3031....
It's very much hit-and-miss, sometimes a pound of 2, more often empty space. I once saw 4 pounds of Unique on the shelf, thought I'd hit the lottery. Snagged 2, left 2 for the next guy.

They even have a narrow selection of popular caliber projectiles, wearing jackets, of course.

[Mohawk Daddy]

A gentleman named Bert Shay was shooting double ball loads from a single action Colt in 45 Colt around 1970. He had an article about it in the 5th edition of Handloader's Digest. His favorite load was a duplex load: 2.0 grains of Bullseye against the primer, 8.2 grains of 4759 on top of that, and a card wad to hold it all together. He followed this up with a grease cookie and another card wad before seating the unlubed balls sprue up, one on top of the other. I've screwed around a little with his one ball loads for 1911s, but have no experience with multi ball loads in the 45 Colt or any other cartridge.

[Michael J. Spangler]

http://www.castpics.net/LoadData/Round%20Ball%20Loads.pdf

[KReider477]

http://www.castpics.net/LoadData/Round%20Ball%20Loads.pdf

Having read this article several times now I am very happy to see I was on the right track. I am having issues with 45 call round balls of the right size and will either end up ordering a special mold or ordering oversized and trimming down in a custom .459 lee sizer that I am currently in hurry up and wait mode for.

[Michael J. Spangler]

I bet a Lee .457 round ball mould cast with some tin in the alloy would be right around .459 or so. Maybe a couple coats of hi-tek would bring it up a bit more.



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[Rattlesnake Charlie]

Powder at WalMart?

Sold at WalMart in Alamosa, CO, too.

[dudel]

I have an article somewhere in my computer. I made up some double ball loads for 45 colt. They worked, both hit in the same spot. Not sure what they would do an equal weight bullet wouldn't. And you can only drive them so hard due to the small surface area of the ball that touches the rifling.

Did some experiments with that in 357 Mag/Max a few years ago. I took some lead round ball, and squeezed it in a vise, then ran the result through a Lee push thru boolit sizing die. The result looked like an aspirin tablet. Flat sides gave them more surface area with the bore. Also made the pellets shorter. Two pellets shot pretty well out of a Contender and Taurus revolver. Slugs hit pretty close to each other, separating with distance to target.

[Reverend Al]

I played around with this idea quite a few years ago with very good success, so this might save you some time and effort to work up a usable load. I was shooting them in a single shot Browning B78 in .45-70 and so didn't need to worry about action strength. In the end I settled on 10.0 grains of Unique, seated a .45 calibre gas check over the powder charge using a wood dowel, dropped in three .440" diameter round balls (pure lead round balls for a .45 calibre muzzle-loading rifle), then topped those off with another inverted .45 calibre gas check and a light roll crimp to hold it all in place. The height of the 2 gas checks and 3 round balls crimped perfectly at the mouth of the case. Upon firing, the 3 soft and undersized round balls seemed to stick together and they would consistently stay in about a 5" to 6" group at 100 yards so I don't think they were separating until nearly 100 yards from the muzzle. There were no pressure signs with that load and I shot quite a few of them over the next several years. I would advise AGAINST using a full bore diameter round ball (.457 to .459) in the 3 ball / multi-ball loads for the following reason. I also had some .457 pure lead round balls for a Ruger Old Army pistol and thought I'd try them in my multi-ball load to see if they would shoot any tighter groups. I used the same load of 10.0 grains of Unique, a gas check, three .457 round balls, and an inverted gas check on top with a light roll crimp. The load was identical other than using a full diameter round ball rather than the undersized .440" balls. When I fired the first shot the recoil was fairly substantial compared to my usual .440" round ball load and when I opened the action the lower 1/3'rd of the .45-70 case popped out of the chamber! I checked the chamber and the bore and there was no sign of the forward 2/3'rds of the cartridge case. My guess is that the full diameter round balls gripped the case walls too tightly and the case separated at the lower gas check and the entire front of the cartridge case blew out of the barrel with the 3 round balls inside like a jacketed bullet! I went back to my original load of three .440" round balls for my .45-70 multi ball loads and never had another problem with them. If you have any .440 round balls available I'd try them first and see how it works out for you. Again, guns and brass vary so I'd start out at about 7.0 grains of Unique and work up from there. Good luck with your experimenting ...

[KReider477]

I have 5 rounds loaded 2 of .457 and 3 rounds with a smaller round ball for the .45lc. Now the issue is I have gotten my marlin back form repair. So my father and I took it out to sight in in with factory ammo and after the 9th round the action broke badly. Its going back again