Three 44 Mag Rifles, Two LBT molds & Two Different Bore Sizes: Will it Work?

[Themoose]

I have three 44 magnum rifles... I have slugged the bores and they are .431, .431 and .430... I have two LBT LFN molds that cast bullets @ .433 and weigh 280 and 270 grains.... I have sized them to .432, lubed with LBT soft blue and use gas checks... I know they will work in the rifles with .431, but when shot in the .430 bore; I am finding small "silver flecks" of lead(no smearing). I also tried resizing some previously sized to .432 down to .431 and noticed the same thing...( I also was able to see some lead flakes in the lube grooves when resized to the smaller size).

Is is ok to shoot the bullets if they are .002 over groove size without spiking pressure?

Should I cast some at .433 and just resize to .431 instead of .432 first?

I know that I can try them and answer my own question, but I am hoping to learn from others experience and the newest rifle to the group(.430) is one that has special meaning as it was willed to me by a very close relative and I don't want to have an "oops! moment".

Thanks for helping,

TheMoose

[44MAG#1]

Have you thought about loading a few with a reduced charge and fire a few and make a determination based on you experience?
That is what I would do. Maybe drop a grain and a half and come up the scale? Looking for accuracy.
Of course that is just me.

[Themoose]

Yup, I worked up some loads in the tighter bore and am about 2.5 to 3 grains lower than the bolt guns(the tighter bore is a Henry BigBoy lever action)...got some that were too low with H110 and had one "squib" load.... changed over to mag primers and went up a full grain...

thanks for the reply,

TheMoose

[44MAG#1]

I use either standard primers or Winchester LP primers which are a compromise between standard and magnum.
There shouldn't be that big of a difference in .002" diameter in cast bullets. Something else is also playing into the equation.

[44man]

You fail to mention the alloy at all. How can we see what happens without? But if you tame 1 in 38" twist rates you need a trophy.

[Themoose]

Sorry, for the omission.... I used wheel weights and water dropped them... now, they are a couple of years old, so may have softened some... the Henry does have a 1:38 twist... I did do a "break in" of the barrel... cleaning thoroughly after each of the first five shots, then a thorough cleaning of each of ten three shot strings... the bore looks very shiny and I do not feel any rough spots.... I originally thought the "specs or flakes" were from resizing down to .431.... but also saw some, though not as many when I just used the .432's.

TheMoose

[44MAG#1]

All that cleaning???
You must be looking for miracles out of that barrel.

[Themoose]

No, no miracles....It is a "special" rifle for me.... It is one that I would have never bought for myself... I am a deer hunting fanatic, hunt Indiana and Ohio as well as my current residence (PA)...I prefer bolt guns, shooting a Rem 788 and a Ruger 77(both in 44 mag) had and sold a Marlin 94 in the same caliber...

The gun was left to me by a cousin who I was extremely close to.... we talked almost every day, no matter how many miles seperated us over the years... I always visited with him on my annual hunting trip to IN... he had a large collection of weapons when he died and his wife said that he only left two rifles.... one to me and another Henry to a close friend for many years...He left a hand written note with it...I want to honor him and use that rifle on my upcoming hunts this season(health permitting).. the rifle will not wear a scope as all my others with the exception of a flintlock do.... my aging eyes can no longer make out a good sight picture with the factory sights so I replaced them with a Skinner peep and a Marble's fluorscent front sight.... I've shot some 1 1/2" groups with it @ 50 yards and that is plenty good enough for a woods rifle as long as I do my part.....If I hunt field edges I can always revert to one of the bolt guns for longer shots....

So, the long answer to your question is that I'm not expecting a miracle.... just trying to get the equipment tuned to do the best that I can get it.... the old geezer on the trigger will be the "weak link"...

TheMoose

[44MAG#1]

Moose,
I understand but do you really thing that "conditioning hence seasoning the barrel) will actually help?
Be honest now with your answer.
A case iron skillet yes but a barrel?
Especially with cast bullets?
Espcially with that type of rifle?
I am trying to learn something here.

[Digital Dan]

Moose, the lead particles may be more of a reflection of the alloy and quenched hardness than an evil omen. It isn't at all uncommon or something to fret about. You ought not worry too much about the finished size, but might benefit with the addition of about 2-3% tin by weight in your alloy and air cool rather than water quench.

[44man]

Moose,
I understand but do you really thing that "conditioning hence seasoning the barrel) will actually help?
Be honest now with your answer.
A case iron skillet yes but a barrel?
Especially with cast bullets?
Espcially with that type of rifle?
I am trying to learn something here.
Fully agree, waste of time, can't fool twist rates. Seasoning a barrel is a fools thing. No such thing.
Can the rifles work at 50 yards? Of course. To commemorate a family member means you have love. I like that. I will say your your loss touches me but does not make the gun shoot better.

[Themoose]

44MAG#1,
If you read Veral Smith's book, he firmly believes that fire lapping a barrel will help.... I was hesitant on fire lapping this gun after reading the dangers of light loads using H110.... especially when I did have a "squib" load in one.... so I took a middle of the road("Safe") approach.... do I think it will work? not necessarily, based on my experience, probably not... but it shouldn't hurt.... again... I would never have chosen this rifle, and I didn't like the twist before... but it is what I have to work with... and again, I am just trying to optimize it, tweak what I can... again the biggest issue will be the old geezer on the trigger...It may sound a little corny, but when I am working on the rifle or loads I kind of feel my cousin watching.... he never would do any of the " tuning" that I would do, never use cast bullets.... just shoot what the local gun shop had on hand.... he would think that I was pretty silly for putting in the time that I do....and, I guess a lot of guys on the forum fall into the same category as me....don't necessarily settle for the easy way and hope that they can get a little success from their efforts...
I hope that helps explain the sentimental attachment and I guess a parable would be for my buddy who is into horses, leave me one when he leaves this earth.... I dislike them, have used them in Colorado chasing elk and still would rather walk.... but if he left me one, I guess I would throw up a fence, a small shelter and try to get along with the critter.... no one ever said I was smart.... in fact, my departed cousin used to tell people that I was "strong like a bull and smart like a tractor".

Going back a few posts, I do know this rifle does not like loads as hot as the other two and I will be going somewhere in the vicinity of 21.5gr H110 based upon initial accuracy testing...haven't tried the chrono yet, but guessing it somewhere around 1450 fps...

TheMoose

[runfiverun]

laying down a good coat of lube and keeping it consistent is more conducive to good boolit shooting.
the silver flakes can be a couple of things.
excess tin, antimony dendrites, trailing edge failure.
if they aren't accumulating or causing accuracy issues I wouldn't sweat them too much.
as far as the oversized boolit causing a pressure concern that's another non event.
.002 is gonna raise your psi about 500 well within the limits of a normal rounds variations, and with a powder like H-110 it can cause the load to settle down and burn more efficiently.

[44man]

The rifle will need more then you can attain. WAY more. Case is too small. Yes the .44 is SMALL. You are into revolver loads with a 1 in 20" twist.

[Blackhawk357]

Moose I fire lap all of my new rifles. Time spent with your firearm is never wasted. Good luck on your hunt!


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[mdi]

Hmm. Lots of info. But, I would shoot the .433" bullets in my .430" groove diameter barrel. BTW; SAAMI dimensions for .44 magnum rifle is .431". So, .002" over groove diameter is not a problem. I have a Puma .44 and have had to go .433" to get it to shoot at it's best...

[HangFireW8]

Lead flakes from sizing means you are cutting not sizing. Modern sizing dies have a tapered throat which should prevent this. Some very old dies do not and will cut instead of size. Sometimes the die lube holes have burrs and cut into the side of the boolit.

Whatever is happening to cause it, cut boolits are damaged off-center boolits and will not shoot as well.

Even the hardest lead alloys are much softer than jacketed, and will swage easily down to size in the barrel's throat.

[Digital Dan]

Moose, try a different powder if you want to lighten things up a bit. There be many styles that don't have the baggage H110 carries. 2400 might be a starting point, or Li'l Gun.

[square butte]

Just shoot the as cast at .433 diam. .002 over bore diameter is my go to diameter in a bunch of .30 cal guns - Just make sure your rounds will chamber

[Themoose]

HangFireW8,

The flaking I saw on the bullets were the ones that I resized to .431 from .432 and flakes appeared on top of lube in grease groove above gascheck. Thanks for the advice on powder Digital Dan... and thanks to all who have commented in a positive way to my questions. Anyone have any ideas on powder and powder charges to do a fire lap? I know that you only want enough to make sure the bullets exit the full length of the barrel....

Thanks again to all...

Kindest regards,

TheMoose

[runfiverun]

4.5 grs of titegroup will poke them out, as will 4 grs of clays.
your pressure will be about 11-12K and the velocity will be about 600 fps in the revolvers.

[mdi]

I think I would work out the bullet problem before I changed powder, that is if I was changing powder to effect "flaking"...

[44man]

I loved the little gun but I tried everything. I made molds to .434", lapped dies to everything. Shot from 240 to 330 gr boolits. Best was a design I made and had Dave Farmer make for me.176455 Lube test at 50 yards. I thought I had it made but needed a laser guided boolit past 50 yards. To get this at 50 and miss paper at 100 will twist your mind. Can't be done.

[HangFireW8]

Moose, what sizing system/die are you using, Lyman, RCBS, Lee, Star, or something else? Where did you find or make a .431" die?

[Themoose]

I have the Lyman. The die was either made by either Buckshot, ThePerfessor, or from a blank die from ThePerfessor and reamed by local machine shop. My memory is not so good these days.

[HangFireW8]

If it was reamed locally, it may lack taper and/or have a step that is cutting those shavings.

[Iowa Fox]

I have that same LBT LFN thats drops at 434 with COWW and thats what is stamped on the mold for dia. I size to 432 and use LBT Blue soft. It's been a long time since I slugged a bore, I size to a pound slug of the throat. The lead (angle) that transitions from the throat to the rifling is important if you want the bullets to fly their best. That LBT lube does a good job if your really pushing things hard.

[Themoose]

Ok Folks, I got some trigger time and used my new chronograph... I weighed each powder charge and made up two sets of ammo just varying the expander die used(one was the standard that comes with the dies) the second was one I had made up for me... I also was able to install the new fiber optic front sight.. height was fine and I only had to make small windage adjustment to the Skinner to zero @ 50 yards... the new front sight completely covered the bull @ 50 yds, but I was able to shoot groups from 1.5-2"... the sight covered the entire sheet of paper @ 100yds, but groups ran slightly over 3"... given my eyesight and iron sights and my use(woods rifle for deer) I am very satisfied with the results...The groups were slightly larger using the pistol expander die and the variation in velocity was also greater.. Custom expander die groups Averaged 1642 fps with a spread of 10 f/s... the pistol expander group averaged 1653 fps with a spread of 38fps accuracy was almost as good as the other groups with the exception with one flier and that could have very well been me... There rifle was easily cleaned after the session with only a few flakes of lead shown on the patches... I used the previously cast LBT 270LFN cast @ .433 and sized to .432.
I am sure my results would not please some who are striving for a higher standard of performance, but given my age, end use, iron sights and bullet options available I am very satisfied....THANKS TO ALL FOR SUBMITTING YOUR IDEAS... YOUR HELP WAS GREATLY APPRECIATED.

TheMoose