Marlin 336 - 31141 - newbie 1st range report

[chickenstripe]

OK, I understand that just about everyone on the board that has a 30-30 has used the 31141.... but this bullet/gun/cartridge combo is just too easy. I wasn't out to get bench rest accuracy, and I ddin't get it but shooting my first cast rifle bullets was like the first time I went shooting.

Did alot of research on this site, but no indication of expected 100yd accuracy.

31141 (sized 0.310), gator checked, IMR3031, trimmed brass (2.028), primer pockets cleaned, throats deburred, 2.525 COAL, CCI-200 primers, RCBS pistol lube, 3/8 turn on the taper crimp die after first engaging the belled brass.

Gun was cleaned to remove all copper fowling, it's a micro-groove barrel. (boy was that thing dirty)

Barrel slugged to 0.3085, full length pass chamber to crown.

I did not weigh the brass, but it was all remington headstamp, and was once-fired from this gun.

With factory jacketed ammo, I get under 2" at 100yds with this gun, any bullet, any manufacture. I'd like to do the same with cast.

My bullets weighted in @ 180gr +/- 1gr, checked and lubed, cast of air-cooled WW I have no idea how hard, and no way to check.

5-shot groups @ 100yds

Powder Group
Charge Size

22.0 2.25 1450fps avg
23.0 4.25 1580fps avg
24.0 4.5 1650fps avg
25.0 4.25 1750fps avg
26.0 5.5 1850fps avg
27.0 9 1950fps avg

The loads from 25grs and up had recoil equivalent to factory 170gr loads @ 2100fps, I was surprised the velocity was so low. The 27gr load started to flatten the primers, and is considered MAX in the Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook

Now for the questions.....
Are these common results? If not, what should be expected?

I understand that accuracy is relative, that's why I quantified my expectations above.

I got excited when I saw the group size start to come down after the 24gr group, I thought I hit another node, but then the faster I pushed it, the worse it got.
I'd like to push these at about 1800-2000fps and get groups about 2" at 100yds.

Should I try:
different powders,
different lube,
different bullet size,
different primer,
different brass,
different COAL,
different trimmed length,
tighter/looser crimp,
harder bullet (water dropped WW, alloy with linotype)?

I'm by no means complaining, It was like shooting for the first time again. :-D

I'm going to try smaller graduations of this powder, but some guidance would be great. I'm a firm believer in changing one variable at a time, but when the bullet is a variable, that introduces 100% more variables, so I'm going to need some direction.

Before the question is asked:
I used pistol lube, because that's what I had in the sizer... I do have various other lubes (one of those variety packs from ebay)... but I'm a newbie, so I used what what was easily available. Although, I got zero leading. Just lucky I guess.

Thanks for the assistance (in advance)....

chickenstripe

[Glen]

What size is the throat? I'd try bullets sized .311" next. How are you belling the case mouths?

[Jon K]

chickenstripe,

* To get better groups next try .311, then .312, and also try .310 again, and .309.

* 3031 won't get thee speed you want, you need a slower powder. For speed you're looking for with good accuracy, try 28 gr Varget 1975-1997 fps in 2 different guns(Win 94 & 64). You can also try 748 & 4064, although I found Varget had the best 200m accuracy. Be sure to try the different sizes, I know 2 guys whom I gave 311041 samples( both have the 336 both mfg different dates) one gun liked .310, and the other wouldn't shoot anything but .312.

Jon

[MtGun44]

My best accy in the .30-30 has been with W748 and IMR 4895. So far I have gotten good results with
311041 in my W94, but not in my M336, but I have not spent a lot of time with the M336 and cast.

Bill

[chickenstripe]

I do not know what size the throat is.
Would I just mic a chamber casting?

Case mouths are belled using a universal expander die.

OK, I have almost all of the powders mentioned, except Varget. I'll try those next.

I guess I'll have to get more sizing dies!

[Larry Gibson]

chickenstripe

Before getting another sizing die work with what you have. You've a 10" twist barrel with micro-groove. You should get the accuracy you're expecting upwards of 1750-1950 fps. Two things will get you there; first is a harder alloy. Second is perhaps a slower powder.

Before getting exotic with other alloys simply try adding 2-3% tin to your WWs and water quenching them from the mould. This generally hardens them to 15-18 BHN which is about what #2 alloy is. BTW; we harden bullets to keep them from over obturating during accelleration not to keep from "stripping" in the rifling. So don't worry about softening the bullets by sizing them. 15-18 BHN is plenty hard enough to withstand the accelleration of the velocity of the 30-30.

Perhaps a change to a slightly slower powder will help also. 3031 is on the fast side of medium burning powders but many do get really good accuracy with it in the 30-30, mostly in M94s, as mentioned in previous posts, with standard rifling of 12" twist though. If you have 4895 give that a try. Start down at 22 gr and work up in 1 gr increments. I also suggest a 3/4 gr filler of dacron over 4895 or Varget powder.

Try the harder alloy first. Then try the different powder. Assuming you are using an appropriate lube I wouldn't worry about different lube, different bullet size, different primer, different brass, different COAL, different trimmed length or tighter/looser crimp until the first two I mentioned are tried. If you've too soft an alloy for the velocity none of the others are going to make any difference in accuracy.

Larry Gibson

[chickenstripe]

Tried the IMR4895 powder today, five three shot groups.... definitely will give me exactly what I'm looking for in velocity. 29.0 - 30.0 grains gives me an average around 1950fps give or take, but my velocity was 2000, 1948, 1873 with 29.0gr and 2050, 1957, 1982 with 30.0gr (kinda all over the place). Groups were 4.0" for 29.0gr, and 10.0 inches for 30.0gr

Lots of smoke with the 30gr charge, bit still no leading.:-D

Mr. Gibson:
Can you expand on the alloy hardening using % linotype instead of % tin? I have WW and linotype, but no tin.

Would a 50/50 mix be an equvalent, or start at something like 10% lino and experiment? I'm all for this, and may just go ahead and try it. After all it's the journey, not the destination.... :drinks:

chickenstripe

[BABore]

My 336 MicroGroove Marlin ran just a shade bigger on groove diameter. I did detect a few constrictions in the bbl, but let it ride. I started with 0.310 boolits cast from 50/50 WW-Pb, OHT'd. It did around 1 1/2 to 2 inches at 100 yds using a 2.75x scout scope rig. I tired both 0.311 and 0.3115 boolits and it got better and better. I ended up at 26.5 grs of 3031 with a CCI 200 primer. Groups averaged just a shade over 1 1/4" for 3 shots at 100 yds.

After a prolonged winter boredom period, I decided to firelap the gun. Microgrooves often respond to firelapping. Using Beartooth's/LBT's technique, I lapped it and broke it back in. Using my previous mentioned load, groups opened about 3/8" larger. Having firelapped many guns before this with all positive results, I played with the charge wt. a little. I ended up finding my accuracy at 27.0 grains. 3-shot groups run between 3/4 and 7/8 at 100 yards.

Marlin's can also be funny about forearm rests. Some don't care, some have to be in a certain place (close to the action), some only like a hard or soft rest, and some don't like anything but your hand holding them. I've got five Marlins, and only two will tolerate their forearms just setting on a bag.

Incidently, I am shooting the 311041 Group Buy boolit. It's a little different than the Lyman in that the boreride nose is tapered instead of straight.

[WyrTwister]

OK, I understand that just about everyone on the board that has a 30-30 has used the 31141.... but this bullet/gun/cartridge combo is just too easy. I wasn't out to get bench rest accuracy, and I ddin't get it but shooting my first cast rifle bullets was like the first time I went shooting.

Did alot of research on this site, but no indication of expected 100yd accuracy.

31141 (sized 0.310), gator checked, IMR3031, trimmed brass (2.028), primer pockets cleaned, throats deburred, 2.525 COAL, CCI-200 primers, RCBS pistol lube, 3/8 turn on the taper crimp die after first engaging the belled brass.

Gun was cleaned to remove all copper fowling, it's a micro-groove barrel. (boy was that thing dirty)

Barrel slugged to 0.3085, full length pass chamber to crown.

I did not weigh the brass, but it was all remington headstamp, and was once-fired from this gun.

With factory jacketed ammo, I get under 2" at 100yds with this gun, any bullet, any manufacture. I'd like to do the same with cast.

My bullets weighted in @ 180gr +/- 1gr, checked and lubed, cast of air-cooled WW I have no idea how hard, and no way to check.

5-shot groups @ 100yds

Powder Group
Charge Size

22.0 2.25 1450fps avg
23.0 4.25 1580fps avg
24.0 4.5 1650fps avg
25.0 4.25 1750fps avg
26.0 5.5 1850fps avg
27.0 9 1950fps avg

The loads from 25grs and up had recoil equivalent to factory 170gr loads @ 2100fps, I was surprised the velocity was so low. The 27gr load started to flatten the primers, and is considered MAX in the Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook

Now for the questions.....
Are these common results? If not, what should be expected?

I understand that accuracy is relative, that's why I quantified my expectations above.

I got excited when I saw the group size start to come down after the 24gr group, I thought I hit another node, but then the faster I pushed it, the worse it got.
I'd like to push these at about 1800-2000fps and get groups about 2" at 100yds.

Should I try:
different powders,
different lube,
different bullet size,
different primer,
different brass,
different COAL,
different trimmed length,
tighter/looser crimp,
harder bullet (water dropped WW, alloy with linotype)?

I'm by no means complaining, It was like shooting for the first time again. :-D

I'm going to try smaller graduations of this powder, but some guidance would be great. I'm a firm believer in changing one variable at a time, but when the bullet is a variable, that introduces 100% more variables, so I'm going to need some direction.

Before the question is asked:
I used pistol lube, because that's what I had in the sizer... I do have various other lubes (one of those variety packs from ebay)... but I'm a newbie, so I used what what was easily available. Although, I got zero leading. Just lucky I guess.

Thanks for the assistance (in advance)....

chickenstripe




What is the bullet diameter unsized ?

Try shooting unsized ?

God bless
Wyr

[chickenstripe]

BABore,
I have a 1894c that doesn't care about rests and will shoot just over 1" at 100yds @ 1700fps with jacketed, and at lower velocities the 358156 will do the same. I just ass-umed that since the jacketed loads out of the 336 shoot to 1-1/2" the cast should have the ability to do the same. I'm glad you mentioned this, I'll have to try different rest tecniques, maybe this one is picky with cast?

Wyr,
The bullet major diameter is 0.311 if memory serves. I cast these bullets about a month ago. I did think of shooting unsized, but how can I lube and check and keep the bullets unsized? Should I just press the checks on by hand and then use LLA (or the other way around)?

[Patrick L]

Although the velocity won't be what you're looking for, for just fun shooting and practice you may want to try some lighter loads. I shoot some real powderpuff loads using Green Dot, but I'm sure there are lots of other powders in the same vein that would give similar results depending on your guns likes and dislikes. I never really tried to match jacketed load velocities with any of my cast boolit rifle loads, so I can't help you there.

Here's a link to a thread I posted a few weeks back with some pictures of 50 and 100 yd targets:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=30237

Good luck!

[wmitty]

Velocity may not be acceptable but I've had really good luck with Re-7 and the group buy 31141. ACWW sized .311".

[9.3X62AL]

Microgroove tends to prefer fatter boolits. My sole MG 30 caliber (Marlin Model 62 in 30 Carbine) dotes on Lee Soup Cans (113 round flat point/GC) and #311316 sized at .311"-.312". I use a 32-20 expander spud (.309" diameter) to prevent the case neck from swaging down your boolit--chances are the 30-30 die set's expander ball is about .306", which will do BAD THINGS to .311" boolits.

[Junior1942]

Al might have just hit your accuracy nail on the head with his comment about a too-small expander ball.

[chickenstripe]

Junior and 9.3,

Although I understand the bullet swaging issue would give me poor accuracy.....
I do not understand how I would be getting 2.25" groups at powder charges yielding about 1450fps.

If the boolit was that undersized for the bore, wouldn't it shoot patterns instead of groups, not matter what the velocity was?

[Junior1942]

1450 fps = 104,400 rpms
1950 fps = 140,400 rpms

Bullet deformation means more at higher rpms.

[chickenstripe]

I thought the point was that the bullet would be swaged to be undersized for the bore? Therefore not engaging the rifling?

[w30wcf]

chickenstripe,

I would try a 50/50 w.w. / lino. That should give you a brinell of 16-18 and would be just fine for 2,000 f.p.s. It has been in my .30-30's.

Bullet weight of + - 1 gr. is definitely too much variation (2 grs. total) for the most accurate shooting. I would suggest sorting your bullets by cavity then by weight from the heaviest to - 1/2 gr. and try those for group. At higher velocity, the weight variation becomes more of a factor.

Are you pre seating the gas checks?

w30wcf

[chickenstripe]

w30wcf,

I place the gas checks into the RCBS lube-a-matic II, place the bullet onto the check, and then size/lube.

I'll be trying the 50/50 WW-lino this weekend, and also finer weight segregation, in a seperate test. I guess I'll have to load more ammo!!!
"Sorry honey, I may be at the range all day"

I'll keep everyone informed.

Thanks to everyone for all of the assistance.

[w30wcf]

chickenstripe,
Thank you for the update. If the gas checks do not go on freely by hand all the way to the base of the bullet, I would suggest pre seating the gas checks by locking the sizing die ejector pin in place, then preseating the gas checks.

I would wait at least 24 hours after casting to let the bullets get some strength before you do this to make sure that you won't upset the bullet nose.

Unless you have a Lyman preseater stop (it will work with an RCBS Lubrisizer - at least mine does) you can do this by putting a short bolt between the bottom of the die and the top of the ejector rod. Then turn the adjustment screw up until the ejector rod / bolt is touching the bottom of the die.

Preseat the gas checks by putting little (very little) pressure on the handle.

After you have a batch of bullets with the gas checks installed, remove the bolt and lube / size normally.

Have fun and good luck!

w30wcf

[chickenstripe]

w30wcf: The gas check slip onto the base of the bullet, by hand, with a bit of pressure. I'll seat them before setting the bullet in the sizer.

Update:
Cast the 50/50 lino/ww boolits last night..... boy they sure are pretty.

It made all of my casting issues with this single cavity mold, dissappear. It used to take over 30 boolits before they started to drop without issues (sharp corners, fully filled, no wrinkles). I'm going to segregate by weight (+/- 0.1gr) this evening, and size/lube/check.

I'm going to weight before and after running them through the sizer, to see what happens to the weight.... just to satisfy my own curiosity. I suspect there is some variation in the weights before and after sizing/checking/lubing.... there would have to be, right?

Everyone, thanks again for the assistance.

[BABore]

I'm going to weight before and after running them through the sizer, to see what happens to the weight.... just to satisfy my own curiosity. I suspect there is some variation in the weights before and after sizing/checking/lubing.... there would have to be, right?

Everyone, thanks again for the assistance.


Not really. The entrance to the sizing die has a gentle leade. Your not shaving metal off when sizing, but displacing it. Measure the OAL before and after and you will see. If you start seeing any lead shavings, look for TP misalignment cause you should see any.

[WyrTwister]

BABore,


Wyr,
The bullet major diameter is 0.311 if memory serves. I cast these bullets about a month ago. I did think of shooting unsized, but how can I lube and check and keep the bullets unsized? Should I just press the checks on by hand and then use LLA (or the other way around)?


The Lee sizer dies are pretty cheap and push on the base , instead of the nose .

They male a .311 die

http://www.leeprecision.com/cgi/catalog/browse.cgi?1214145481.2473=/html/catalog/lubesize.html

Give it a try . It will install the gas check .

Last time I was at the range , I shot some C312-185-1R

http://www.leeprecision.com/cgi/catalog/browse.cgi?1214145481.2473=/html/catalog/bullmol2.html

loaded with 1.0cc of surplus WC820 . 100 yard , 6 shot group , sandbags & 3 x 9 scope on a marlin .30-30 . 1-1/2" x 2" x 2-1/4" triangle .

These were lubed and GC'ed with a Lyman machine .

God bless
Wyr

[chickenstripe]

Allright everyone,
the 50/50 lino/WW bullets proved to be magic.
Charges used were 27/27.5/28/28.5/29/29.5/30 grains of IMR4895.
Bullets weighed out to be 170.5gr +/-0.1.

All groups were 3-shot, and all ended up to be in the 2" range, except for the 29 and 30gr charges which were around 4"+. I had several groups where the first two shots touched, with the third being a flier and enlarging the group.

Velocities started out at 1800fps, and went to about 2000fps. So it appears that I've reached my goal. I will however do more tweaking to sqeeze out a bit more accuracy, just to see if I can.

Now the question is, will these 50/50 boolits be acceptable for use on deer, or will they be too hard?

I'm going to do some "wet-pack" testing with phonebooks, etc. Just thought I'd post the question here to get real world feedback.

Thanks to everyone for the assistance.

[w30wcf]

chickenstripe,

Glad to hear that you had some success with the 50/50 blend. THe best thing to do is shoot the bullets made from your particular alloy into wet phone books / newspaper at your normal hunting distances to check for expansion.

If your bullets are larger than .310" you might try them unsized to see if that improves accuracy. Pre seat the gas checks and run the base of the bullet into the sizing die just far enought to size the gas check to the diameter of the bullet,
then lube by hand.

w30wcf

[Newtire]

Hi Chickenstripe,

A well known guru here on this board gave me this load for the 311041 & the 311407. I used these in a Win 94. 30.5 gr. H-335.

I also had real good success with 31.5 gr. Win 748 and then 28.5 gr. AA 2520 and these same boolits.

My best accuracy with "J-word" bullets in my 30-30's has been 31 gr. IMR 3031 with any 150 gr. 30-30 bullet.

Just what I have found to work...