.38 S&W Newby

[Flinch]

Hi All I'm new here. I just scored a Ruger Security Six in .380 rim (.38 S&W). I have never owned a .38 S&W before but decided to pick one up because I have some health problems and want a gun with decent stopping power with minimal recoil, blast and noise. Home protection is now a Glock 17 but I might retire it when I'm up and running with something more fun for me to practice with. A .38 special would be an easier route to go but I'm attracted to the small case of the .38 S&W and I feel that the very small case volume should be very efficient using minimal powder for a given velocity.

I have not reloaded or cast in years so it will take me some time to get up and running again. While I wait for my gun to arrive I've ordered a couple of boxes of .38/200 loads from Old Western Scrounger (commercially reloaded ammo) and a couple of boxes of Magtech 146 grain lead loads.

From reading previous threads here I gather that:

1. The Ruger will probably slug at or about .357".

2. The gun will probably need loads approximating the .38/200 loads to shoot to point of aim.

3. New Lee carbide dies will probably work well for this gun.

4. Pure lead may be used for .38 S&W casting. Probably especially at the low velocities of a 200 grain slug.

I understand the reasoning of using a tumbling round nose bullet but am interested in casting a flat point bullet of about 200 grains instead. One question I have is that I'm not sure a flat point bullet would have a tapered profile that would fit into the .38 S&W chamber. Any thoughts about this? Any flat point 200 grain mold you could recommend for this gun? Y'all have a great forum! Thanks!

[Harter66]

Welcome.

The only 38/200 ,38 S&W , 38 New Police I've had any experience with needed a 362 dia cast bullet .

I'm not up on every gun made but something doesn't sound right about a Sec6 in a 38/200 , it could be a custom/special order piece I suppose .

I did once load some 9x23 rimmed made of trimmed 357 brass but that was more fooling around than any serious work . So very short cases will work and shot ok in a Sec 6 357 . I would venture that a modern recent gun ( I think the Security 6 was dropped in 1978) would have 360 throats much like the pre-1935 guns in the cartridge did just so the ammo will chamber with the fat bullet .

I'm sure you know but maybe not that there is a 38 short , 38 S&W , 38 long and 38 Special. I can't imagine the short or long being in a Security 6 . The S&W is a little longer than the short and was sold as 38/200 ,Colts New Police and 38 S&W . To add confusion I had a very early model 10 marked for 38 Smith and Wesson Special cartridge , it is 38Spcl .

Good luck . I hope I didn't muddy things up to bad .

[45-70 Chevroner]

Harter66 is correct. The 38 S&W has a larger diameter case and a larger diameter boolit than a 38 special. It is no problem though loading a 38 special to 38 S&W velocities. The 38/200 is actually a 38 special load.
One more thing, you can not chamber a 38 S&W in a 38 Special.

[Flinch]

Thanks everyone. The Six was indeed made in .38 S&W for the Indian (and I think) the Irish governments. Not a lot were made however. I don't have the gun in hand but I'm guessing it uses a .357" barrel. I think more recent .38 S&W's used a bit smaller bores than the older ones. I even think Smiths made in the 60's and 70's used the modern grove diameters for the barrels. However, I've only gleaned this from reading here so I'm no authority on this old caliber. The .38 special did indeed have an old 200 grain load but the .38 S&W also used a 200 grain load as well in British war time guns. I think this Ruger is sighted for the 200 grain load since it was made for a former colony. Maybe others here can chime in though. Thanks again for your help!

[Outpost75]

The Ruger .380 Rimmed revolvers made for India were sighted for 178-grain Mk.2z ammunition and the Accurate 36-178D and 36-177P bullets are correct to shoot to zero.


176089176095

Early India revolvers were assembled by reworking 9mm revolvers leftover from a French Police order, re-chambering 9mm cylinders to lengthen the chamber body from the 0.754" length of the 9mm Luger to 0.775” for the .38 S&W, re-polishing and re-roll-marking the barrels. The conversion was simple and worked well because, the French 9mm cylinders had already been faced around their circumference to clear the 9mm moon clips, whereas the unaltered DA revolver extractor provided ample purchase for normal headspacing of rimmed .38 S&W cartridges. French 9mm revolvers converted to ".380 Rim" for the first half of the India order could use either 9mm Luger/ Parabellum ammunition with moon clips, or .380 MkIIz (and .38 S&W) without the clip. The reamers used to convert the 9mm cylinders cut a 3-degrees Basic transition from the 0.385" mouth diameter of the .38 S&W chamber to the 0.3555-.3565" 9mm cylinder throats, providing adequate clearance for the .363" bullet, gently transitioning it out of the cylinder and into the forcing cone. Velocity and accuracy of 9mm ammunition were somewhat reduced compared to firing in the unmodified, original 9mm cylinder, but performance was still deemed “adequate for combat.”

Later .380 revolvers lacked the moon-clip clearance and were chambered to minimum SAAMI specifications for the .38 S&W having .358 cylinder throats and .357 barrels. The .380 Mk.IIz as loaded in the UK and India produces 610+/-25 fps. Mk.2 ammunition fired in the tighter Ruger runs about 700 fps.

Current ammunition catalogs of the US makers cite 685 fps for the .38 S&W 146-grain LRN at 150 ft.-lbs. Previous tests in which I fired .38 S&W factory loads in my Ruger Service Six, 1960s-era Western 146-grain Lubaloy .38 S&W loads gave 727 fps with an extreme spread of only 12 fps and a standard deviation of 5 fps over a 10-shot string. Recent production Winchester 146-grain unplated LRN with W-W head stamp produced velocities gave close to the catalog number, 662 fps with an extreme spread of 75 fps and a standard deviation of 29 fps. Current production Fiocchi 146 LRN gave impressive results in the Ruger, producing 809 fps, with a standard deviation of 21 fps, very little different than is expected firing standard pressure 158-grain lead round-nosed .38 Special in a revolver of similar barrel length!

In working up loads I found my particular Ruger shot to its fixed sights, with 155-grain Accurate 36-155D approximating the ~800 fps velocity of Fiocchi factory ammo with 2.5 to 2.7 grains of Bullseye.

176090

.38 S&W Velocity Data in Webley & Scott Mark IV vs. Ruger

Ammunition: _________________________Webley Mark IV 4"____Ruger 4"
Fiocchi 146-grain LRN factory load_____________750 fps, 19 Sd___________809 fps, 21 Sd

Accurate 36-155D, 2.1 grs. Bullseye____________640 fps, 8 Sd____________671 fps, 11 Sd
Accurate 36-155D, 2.5 grs. Bullseye____________710 fps, 16 Sd___________756 fps, 11 Sd
Accurate 36-155D, 2.7 grs. Bullseye_+P Ruger Only_not fired_______________801 fps, 9 Sd
Accurate 36-155D, 3.0 grs. Bullseye_+P Ruger Only_not fired_______________852 fps, 12 Sd

Accurate 36-178D, 2.1 grs. Bullseye_____________595 fps, 10 Sd___________601 fps, 18 Sd
Accurate 36-178D, 6.3 grs. #2400_+P Ruger Only__not fired_______________748 fps, 28 Sd

NOE 201-grain Mk2, 2.1 grs. Bullseye____________609 fps, 12 Sd___________629, fps 15 Sd

[murf205]

Outpost---you da man! No wonder this site is the go to place when you need to REALLY know something. Learned something new, many thanks.

[Flinch]

Thanks Outpost! How do you tell the early 9mm converts from the later revolvers? The 9mm barrels must be .355" I think??? If so, they sound tight for the jacketed ball ammo. The cylinder conversion you mentioned does a lot of squeezing down!

Also, how well does the factory Fiocchi ammo shoot to point of aim in your Ruger? And have you ever tried the Magtech load before? It is pretty reasonably priced at Cheaperthandirt.com

Looking at the top two molds I see that a .357" groove diameter barrel would bear a long ways on both, especially the 36-177P mold on the top right. In a .360"+ barrel these molds would seem about right, but would the bearing surface be too long in a .357" barrel? Maybe it would not matter if one used soft lead. I'm thinking about pressure here. Thanks again!

[quail4jake]

Well done! incredible depth of knowledge and insight into application. Thank you, outpost, this is great education!

The Ruger .380 Rimmed revolvers made for India were sighted for 178-grain Mk.2z ammunition and the Accurate 36-178D and 36-177P bullets are correct to shoot to zero.


176089176095

Early India revolvers were assembled by reworking 9mm revolvers leftover from a French Police order, re-chambering 9mm cylinders to lengthen the chamber body from the 0.754" length of the 9mm Luger to 0.775” for the .38 S&W, re-polishing and re-roll-marking the barrels. The conversion was simple and worked well because, the French 9mm cylinders had already been faced around their circumference to clear the 9mm moon clips, whereas the unaltered DA revolver extractor provided ample purchase for normal headspacing of rimmed .38 S&W cartridges. French 9mm revolvers converted to ".380 Rim" for the first half of the India order could use either 9mm Luger/ Parabellum ammunition with moon clips, or .380 MkIIz (and .38 S&W) without the clip. The reamers used to convert the 9mm cylinders cut a 3-degrees Basic transition from the 0.385" mouth diameter of the .38 S&W chamber to the 0.3555-.3565" 9mm cylinder throats, providing adequate clearance for the .363" bullet, gently transitioning it out of the cylinder and into the forcing cone. Velocity and accuracy of 9mm ammunition were somewhat reduced compared to firing in the unmodified, original 9mm cylinder, but performance was still deemed “adequate for combat.”

Later .380 revolvers lacked the moon-clip clearance and were chambered to minimum SAAMI specifications for the .38 S&W having .358 cylinder throats and .357 barrels. The .380 Mk.IIz as loaded in the UK and India produces 610+/-25 fps. Mk.2 ammunition fired in the tighter Ruger runs about 700 fps.

Current ammunition catalogs of the US makers cite 685 fps for the .38 S&W 146-grain LRN at 150 ft.-lbs. Previous tests in which I fired .38 S&W factory loads in my Ruger Service Six, 1960s-era Western 146-grain Lubaloy .38 S&W loads gave 727 fps with an extreme spread of only 12 fps and a standard deviation of 5 fps over a 10-shot string. Recent production Winchester 146-grain unplated LRN with W-W head stamp produced velocities gave close to the catalog number, 662 fps with an extreme spread of 75 fps and a standard deviation of 29 fps. Current production Fiocchi 146 LRN gave impressive results in the Ruger, producing 809 fps, with a standard deviation of 21 fps, very little different than is expected firing standard pressure 158-grain lead round-nosed .38 Special in a revolver of similar barrel length!

In working up loads I found my particular Ruger shot to its fixed sights, with 155-grain Accurate 36-155D approximating the ~800 fps velocity of Fiocchi factory ammo with 2.5 to 2.7 grains of Bullseye.

176090

.38 S&W Velocity Data in Webley & Scott Mark IV vs. Ruger

Ammunition: _________________________Webley Mark IV 4"____Ruger 4"
Fiocchi 146-grain LRN factory load_____________750 fps, 19 Sd___________809 fps, 21 Sd

Accurate 36-155D, 2.1 grs. Bullseye____________640 fps, 8 Sd____________671 fps, 11 Sd
Accurate 36-155D, 2.5 grs. Bullseye____________710 fps, 16 Sd___________756 fps, 11 Sd
Accurate 36-155D, 2.7 grs. Bullseye_+P Ruger Only_not fired_______________801 fps, 9 Sd
Accurate 36-155D, 3.0 grs. Bullseye_+P Ruger Only_not fired_______________852 fps, 12 Sd

Accurate 36-178D, 2.1 grs. Bullseye_____________595 fps, 10 Sd___________601 fps, 18 Sd
Accurate 36-178D, 6.3 grs. #2400_+P Ruger Only__not fired_______________748 fps, 28 Sd

NOE 201-grain Mk2, 2.1 grs. Bullseye____________609 fps, 12 Sd___________629, fps 15 Sd

[Outpost75]

On the off chance that your revolver does have a higher front sight for the 200-grain bullets, as front sights are pinned in, came in different heights and "could" have been replaced by a previous owner, Accurate does have a couple heavier bullets for .38 S&W which are:

176123176124

[Outpost75]

...How do you tell the early 9mm converts from the later revolvers? The 9mm barrels must be .355" I think??? If so, they sound tight for the jacketed ball ammo. The cylinder conversion you mentioned does a lot of squeezing down! Also, how well does the factory Fiocchi ammo shoot to point of aim in your Ruger? And have you ever tried the Magtech load before? Looking at the top two molds I see that a .357" groove diameter barrel would bear a long ways on both, especially the 36-177P mold on the top right. In a .360"+ barrel these molds would seem about right, but would the bearing surface be too long in a .357" barrel? Maybe it would not matter if one used soft lead. I'm thinking about pressure here. Thanks again!

No pressure issues in the Rugers, but the cylinder throats are tight, .354-.355 in the converted 9mm revolvers, so they are easy to tell. The long tapered transition from the chamber to ball seat will let 36-178D enter, but not 36-177P. The squeezing down does raise pressure and velocity, but well within the Ruger's design limits. A strong gun!

Fiocchi ammo shoots to the sights on mine. Have not tried the Magtech.

[reddog81]

I don't own any newer 38 S&W revolvers but I've had good luck using 148 HBWC swaged bullets from Speer. The soft swaged bullets will squeeze down if necessary or expand to fit an oversized bore. If you haven't cast in awhile and want to use a commercial bullet I'd recommended this one.

The LEE dies should work just fine.

[Flinch]

When I spoke of thinking of pressure I wasn't so much thinking of the Security Six which was obviously built to withstand .357 mag pressures but other .38 S&W revolvers. I have my eye on a 2" Smith Courier which was built in the 1960's. I think it probably has a bore diameter of .357"??? If so I wonder how the 36-177P bullet would work (or the even longer 200 equivalent bullet)? It would seem to me that almost the entire bullet would be a bearing surface in the barrel. However if one cast the bullets soft maybe there would be no pressure issues???

I'm thinking of having a mix of older and newer .38 S&W's. From what I understand the groove diameters runs from .361" to .357". If this is correct maybe a soft cast bullet sized to .359" would work acceptably for both. It would swadge down for .357 and hopefully upset to fill the bore in a .361 gun. Using pure lead or a very soft allow might help this. Any thoughts about my line of thinking?

Also, what is the twist rate on the Security Six? I can't find it for sure but I think it is the same as Smith and Wesson at 1 turn in 18.375".

The 148 grain HBWC would indeed be the answer to get up and running quickly with just about any gun in this caliber. Many thanks all!

[Outpost75]

The Ruger Service Six, Speed Six, Security Six are all 18.75" twist same as S&W.

Rechambered Ruger 9mm to .380 Rim and my 1930 production Colt are both .344 bore and .354 groove in the barrels.

S&Ws I have measured in the past ran the same as Webley & Scott, .354 bore and .360 groove with .362 cylinder throats.

The 36-177P with .357" parallel sided nose with tolerance positive will enter S&W cylinder, but may need to be sized for Rugers, depending upon manufacturing variations based on when produced.

If ordering 36-177P for use in a Ruger the same .357 nose diameter is OK, but in your order specify NOSE TOLERANCE NEGATIVE! That way rounds will chamber without resistance but nose will engrave and be guided by rifling.

Size bullet so that loaded rounds enter the CYLINDER easily without resistance. IGNORE barrel bore and groove diameter.

The 148 HBWC is a good choice. You can load out in .38 S&W cases to 1.20" OAL and use .38 Special wadcutter data.

[Flinch]

Thanks again Outpost. You really cleared things up for me.

[Texas by God]

Ah, memories. As a youth I carried my .38/200 Enfield daily and used it on rabbits, squirrels, bullfrogs and varmints. My load of choice was the 148hbwc over 2grs Bullseye loaded with my Lee Loader. I modified my hammer by cutting a SA notch and I soldered a brass bead on the front sight to correct poi for my loads. I wish I still had it of course. Best, Thomas.

[Flinch]

Outpost, do you know if the .380 rim Ruger Speed Sixes (with the short barrel) came in both the 9mm converts and "normal" variations? Also, is the gun you gave the above chromo data for a 9mm convert?

If anyone should need some (relatively) cheap factory ammo, cheaperthandirt.com has Magtech .38 S&W ammo for $20.49 per box of 50 and even discounted ammo for a case of 1000 rounds!

[Outpost75]

Gun from velocity data above is a 9mm convert. Speed Six indicates the round butt frame shape, not the barrel length. Both 2-3/4" and 4" barrel lengths were made on both frames, round butt Speed Six and square butt Service Six. A very few 5" Service Sixes were made also, I believe for RUC and some may have gone to RHKP.

So far as I know .380 Rim Speed Sixes were all .38 S&W chambering, and all of the 9mm converts would have been reworked French models, which were matte military finish Service Six 4" square butt with lanyard loop.

[Bigslug]

Welcome Flinch!

As you clearly understand, you're going to need to slug the bore with a lump of pure lead before you really get cooking. I'd strongly suggest you also find someone with a set of pin gauges to determine your cylinder throat diameters before you pick a mold, as offerings in .38 S&W can vary quite a bit. The nice thing about ordering from Accurate Molds is that (a.) Tom is FAST, and (b.) he'll cut the design you pick to drop at the diameter you want, using the alloy you want.

I would not worry so much about making your bullets out of pure lead, and go instead with a mix that's easier to get a clean cast with. At .38 S&W velocities, expansion is going to be of dubious reliability whatever you use - you're better off with the flat points.

As to the "Tumbling Webley bullet". . . I've played with the authentic .455 MKII design cast soft, the not authentic, but probably less stable than the 178 grainer NOE .364-200-RN, and the Lyman 358430 which closely resembles the 200 grain MKI bullet cast hard, and I'm solidly convinced it's bunk. These bullets at the appropriate velocities penetrate six water-filled gallon milk jugs or more in a straight or slightly curving line, typically making round holes all the way. A hit on heavy bone might change that somewhat, but you're not going to have the total end-swap of the 5.56 NATO rounds in the space of a human body, and even if you do, so what? It's not travelling NEARLY fast enough to do more than push soft tissue out of it's way with relative gentleness. Nope. Damage to peripheral tissue is pretty unlikely. These are miniaturized African dangerous game solids, intended to be lined up with something important and sent through it.

The Lee dies work great. Also handy to use the sizer/expander on 9mm to keep the brass from crushing your slugs too small on seating. Don't recall if they come with a flat point seater stem though.

I REALLY like the idea of a Security Six in .38S&W. Talk about a candidate for "Last firearm on Earth to ever wear out"!

[Flinch]

Thanks Outpost and Bigslug! I've been thinking about something to slug the barrel with (don't yet have the gun in hand). Also is there any reason one can't slug the cylinder? Hornady makes .375" round balls for muzzle loaders. I believe they are made of pure Pb. I would think this would be ok to ram down the barrel and cylinder??? I have not slugged in years so I'm not sure if this is too big???

Outpost mentioned above not worrying too much about the barrel size and just sizing so the loaded round will go in the chamber. I wonder if a bullet of about .359 would work ok in most guns? If cast soft it should swage down in a small bore and hopefully upset some in a large bore. This would make matters easy if one wanted to load for several guns with a one-size-fit-all approach like factory ammo. What do y'all think?

Here is a link to the Ruger I purchased (yes I paid up for it). The finish appears to be normal bluing so perhaps it is not a 9mm convert???

http://www.gunbroker.com/item/580651145

[Outpost75]

A soft alloy of 50-50 wheelweights and plumber's lead, which drops as- cast at .359-.360, tumbled in Lee Liquid Alox or LSStuff 45-45-10, loaded and shot as-cast and unsized, will workfine in any of the .380 Rim Rugers.

[Flinch]

Outpost, would you think .359-.360 would work in most any .38 S&W? I'm also thinking about getting a 1950's vintage Smith Terrier which I assume used a larger bore and chamber??? Thanks again!

[quail4jake]

This is great education, I never knew that Ruger chambered the Security Six in the 38 S&W, I was under the impression that the last revolvers commercially chambered were the S&W Safety Hammerless in 1942. But now I know differently.
I've always thought of the US load (145gr LRN) as a different animal than the .380/200 Webley. FWIW, I load for "fatbore" (.360 groove) .38 S&W using Missouri bullet Co. 145gr LRN with a single lube groove and no crimp groove sized .361 BNH 12 ahead of 2.5gr Trail Boss @ 680 fps SD 10-25 with great grouping and enough oomph to move steel and spin groundhogs.
So far I'm using the commercial boolits because I haven't yet found a mold to make that same design which is faithful to the originals and works so well...if anyone has advice on finding one please let me know.
Outpost recommended equal wheelweights and lead, I'll bet that will hit BNH 12 on the money.

[Flinch]

This is everything you wanted to know about the .38 S&W and then some! I have read somewhere that the standard factory loads might use a hollow base bullet but I'm not sure. I ordered a couple of boxes of Magtech ammo and will pull one when I get them.

Smith and Wesson made 5 shot J frame .38 S&W's until the early 1970's. I forget the exact date.

Outpost, I noticed that you posted right after I edited a previous post to include a link to the Ruger I purchased. Did you see the link? If not here it is again:

http://www.gunbroker.com/item/580651145

Thanks again!!!

[Outpost75]

Later production with the heavier barrel and commercial blue finish should be .38 S&W chambering without the clip clearance cut. Nice score. Valuable gun.

Older .38 S&W factory loads were a hollow-based bullet. Current production by Winchester and Fiocchi have a slightly cupped base bullet of .358" diameter.

[Echo]

Good job, Outpost!

Flinch, I would recommend using a tad of Sn with your Pb - helps mold fillout by reducing the surface tension of the melted alloy, and doesn't harden much. Two % would be sufficient. And I like the looks of those Accurate boolits - I would suggest the 155-grainers, for reduced recoil.

I'll be in Houston soon (home town) - I'll PM you, and maybe we can have - lunch, or shrimp, or tacos, or...

[Flinch]

Thanks Echo definitely PM me. Good idea about the tin. I need to get some pure Pb and I guess solder for the tin. I think I will order the accurate 155 grainer. It would probably work well in most .38 S&W's. Outpost definitely know's his Rugers and .38 S&W's!

[smkummer]

This has been an interesting post and for those that don't know it, Colt was chambering its Police Positive Special in 38 S&W into the late 60's for the Hong Kong police. Colt dropped the chambering in its commercial catalogs in the early 60's but still took orders as I used to own one of the Hong Kong guns with the short grip frame that came out in 1966. Anyway, both my pre-war Colt banker special and Police Positive fire .358 cast bullets just fine.

I find it somewhat funny that someone would buy a 38 S&W because of recoil reasons when the factory 38 special 148 wadcutter
loads simulate 38 almost to a tee and of course if someone reloads, then its even more of a moot point. But then again, I am all for someone wanting to get their feet wet with obsolete cartridges.

[Flinch]

Thanks for the info sm! One thing that attracted me to the .38 S&W is it's very small case volume. (But if I have to admit it, I do like something out of the ordinary!)

[smkummer]

Oops, I forgot the pics. Early 1930's bankers special with a square butt. Steel Bridgeport mold marked 38 S&W. The bullet has a crimp groove that weighs 150 grains and comes out at .359-360. I have loaded 3.0 grains of red-dot from a older Lyman manual and shot 3 or 4 boxes of them with no problems out of the Colts. Prior to this bullet, I loaded Lyman 358477 (150 grains) as shown with the bullet seated out and the 176327same 3.0 red-dot.

[Outpost75]

While posting eye candy, here are my Webley & Scott, and Colt Police Positive .38 Colt New Police.

176329

[Flinch]

Nice guns guys! More I need to add to the list (sigh....).

[Flinch]

Couple more questions. As I said earlier, I have plenty of reloading and casting experience but most of it was 30+ years ago. So I'm a bit rusty on some of it. I have some equipment but mostly I'll be buying again. I'm going to keep things simple and just use a plain old fashion single stage press. I think I will also approach this incrementally and start with reloading using factory .38 148 grain HBWC's. After I get good reloads I'll then start casting.

My questions are:

1. Any opinions on which brand of 148 grain HBWC's to buy? Or, are they all the same?

2. Will Lee dies as they come from the factory properly seat a wadcutter? I'm not sure if they are set up for round nosed bullets. Even if they are, I was thinking it would probably still push in a wadcutter ok???

3. Will the expander that comes with the Lee dies work ok for these wadcutters that I assume run .357" or .358"?

4. With the very small case volume of the .38 S&W, do y'all weigh every charge or do you find throwing them with a good quality pistol powder thrower is ok? I've read great reviews on the Redding match pistol powder thrower. It might just be the ticket for small capacity cases. Thanks for you all's assistance!

[Outpost75]

Couple more questions...I think I will also approach this incrementally and start with reloading using factory .38 148 grain HBWC's. After I get good reloads I'll then start casting. My questions are:

1. Any opinions on which brand of 148 grain HBWC's to buy? Or, are they all the same?

2. Will Lee dies as they come from the factory properly seat a wadcutter? I'm not sure if they are set up for round nosed bullets. Even if they are, I was thinking it would probably still push in a wadcutter ok???

3. Will the expander that comes with the Lee dies work ok for these wadcutters that I assume run .357" or .358"?

4. With the very small case volume of the .38 S&W, do y'all weigh every charge or do you find throwing them with a good quality pistol powder thrower is ok? I've read great reviews on the Redding match pistol powder thrower. It might just be the ticket for small capacity cases. Thanks for you all's assistance!

In my experience as a competitive pistol shooter, all brands of swaged 148-grain hollow-based wadcutters ARE NOT the same!!!! Winchester and Remington component bullets would ALWAYS out-shoot all of the other brands.

Winchester factory wadcutter bullets are no longer available at retail, but if you should find any at a gun show or yard sale you should BUY THEM ALL, as they were the best ever made by anyone.

Of current production 148-grain HBWC bullets Remington are the best, affordable bullets out there. There is no second place for serious target work in which you expect ten-shot, machine rest groups under 2 inches at 50 yards from a good target revolver. Lapua may shoot better for more money, but nothing else is anywhere near as good for the price.

The other popular brands, Speer, Hornady, Precision Delta, Star, are OK for plinking quality and practice loads, but are not of competition quality. If you can buy them cheaply enough that it doesn't pay to cast your own, they will do.

I use Lee dies with good results and had no problem with either flat-nosed or wadcutter bullets.

For metering small charges I use the RCBS Little Dandy measure.

The RCBS Little Dandy measure uses interchangeable, drums or rotors to throw a fixed powder charge. The proper drum is selected in accordance with a charge table, which lists the nominal charge weight thrown by each numbered rotor, using various powders. Selection of the proper drum or rotor should always be done by consulting current published sources of load data. You should then check the charge weight of YOUR drum against a reliable powder scale. I drop TEN charges onto the scale pan and mentally move the decimal. The drums are usually spot-on to the stated charge weight, or not more than 0.1 grain under. I have never found one which threw more than its stated charge weight. Once the charge weight thrown by your particular measure has been verified, some users leave the measures set up, or package the specific drum in the die box of the caliber in which it is suited. I use the same drums in multiple applications, so I therefore, I post this charge table in my loading area:

These are the rotors I use with my RCBS Little Dandy powder measure and the loads they are used for:

#00=1.7 Bullseye, 2.0 Titegroup, 2.5 AutoComp - .32 ACP with Accurate 31-087T or 31-090B (OK for steady use in light alloy frames), Also as “mild” factory-equivalent load with above bullets in .32 S&W Long for old pre WW2 S&W Hand Ejector.

#0 = 2.1 Bullseye, 3.0 AutoComp - full charge .32 ACP and pre-WW2 S&W .32 Long Hand Ejector with Accurate 31-087T or 31-090B (steel frames only).

#1 = 2.5 Bullseye, “Full charge” load for postwar .32 S&W Long with 31-090B, or .32 ACP with 73-gr. FMJ, practice load for .380 ACP with 35-120H. Approximates factory velocity with 36-155D in .38 S&W.

#3 = 3.0 Bullseye, standard load for .32 H&R Mag and .32-20 with 115 LFN, and .38 Spl.148 HBWC flush seated. Full-charge load in .38 S&W for Ruger .380 Rim revolvers with 36-155D.

#5 = 3.5 Bullseye for standard pressure 38 Special cast 146 DEWC or 160LFN

#7 = 4.0 Bullseye +P .38 Spl. with 158 Lead, and as 146 DEWC “full charge wadcutter” for use in .357 guns. Minimum charge with lubricated cast lead bullets in most .30 cal. rifles for “Silent Without Silencer” aka “Cat Sneeze.” Minimum charge for JACKETED bullet small game load in .223 Rem. To ensure reliable bore exit.

#8 = 4.5 Bullseye Standard target load for. 45 ACP 200-230 grain lead, and .38 +P equivalent in .357 brass with 160 to 180 grain LFN. Standard charge in .45 Schofield with 230-grain FN Cowboy bullet.

#9 = 5.0 Bullseye Full charge in .45 ACP for 230-grain FMJ hardball, full charge DEWC for .357 brass, Minimum charge for JACKETED bullet for “cat sneeze” for any .30 cal. rifle from 7.62x39 to .30-’06. Minimum charge in .45 Colt.

#12 = 6.5 Bullseye standard charge for. 45 Colt 250 LFN, 200-grain .44-40, .44 Mag 240-gr. “medium” velocity.

#13 = 7.2 Bullseye, Maximum charge .45 Colt 250-gr., Subsonic gallery load with 150-200-grain plain-based lead in 30-’06.

#15 = 8.4 Bullseye, 1100 fps with 240 JHP in. 44 Mag revolver, 100-yd. target load in smooth barrel .30-'06 plainbased 150 to 205 grains. Gallery practice with JACKETED bullets in .308 Win or .30-’06.

#18 = 14.5 #2400, standard load for .357 magnum 158 to 160 grain lead SWC or FN,

#19 = 15.4 #2400, full charge .357 Mag. 158 jacketed, 200-yard target gascheck load in any. 30 cal. from 7.62x39 to. 30-'06 using bullets from 150 to 205 grains. Also very good in. 30-30 and. 32-40!

#22 = 12.7 of Bullseye! Small game and gallery load for belted cases of .300 H&H and larger. Approximates .38-55 Winchester in .375 H&H with #375449, throws 17.9 #2400 for full charge Winchester 1892 .44-40.

#25 = 20.8 #2400, Standard charge 44 Mag. for 240-260-grain LFN and . 30-30 with 170-LFN. Good in. 30-'06, with either GC cast or jacketed bullets weighing from 150 to 200 grains.

[dondiego]

I use the Little Dandy #2 rotor for 2.8 grains of Bullseye - Good for 32's, .380 ACP, 38S&W, and 38 Colt. I have never even seen a smaller rotor. I need a #1! I own two Little Dandy's. Love them!

[Bigslug]

Reply to post #32.

You're probably going to get OK functionality with a factory HBWC with a fast powder due to the Minie-ball effect, but I really think your best bet is to measure out your gun before you go shopping for anything. A lot of these guns want boolits that are in the .361-.362" range. The only way to know, is to KNOW, ya know?

A good powder dropper will be fine provided you flip the tumbler with uniform force every time. Checking every charge? For a short range .38 S&W defense pistol? In a chassis that was built to take .357 Magnums? MMMMMMMM. . .no. . .

[Flinch]

Thanks guys! I remember the Little Dandy, I think I used one in the past. I have checked around but can't find any Remington 148 grain HBWC's so I got a box of Hornadys and a box of Speers. I'm not looking for top accuracy but just something that will work reasonably well to get me up and running. It would seem to me that the 148 grain HBWC's would work OK in most any .38 S&W??? I also ordered a box of .375" pure lead round balls. Hopefully this will be fine to slug the barrel and chambers with. I won't buy a mold until I slug the barrel and chambers.

I picked up a can of Bullseye today at the local gun store. I noticed looking at various threads on this forum that min and max loads for the .38 S&W can be quite close together. That got me thinking about the accuracy of throwing powder. I agree that it would not be much of an issue with the Ruger but it would seem to me that one would have to carefully meter the powder charge when working near max loads when using the more typical guns chambered for this caliber. I have probably forgotten how accurate the various powder throwers are.

[JWFilips]

My wife shoots a lot of 38 S&W from her 1950's Terrier S&W revolver: If you are not casting for it yet, Matts Bullets makes a great 149 Grain RN size it @ .362" ask for his soft alloy. Also Carl from CB bullets will run a 360" on his 125 TC design! My wife uses this as a light training load ( much easier on the wrist & shoot to the same POA
when shooting in practice!) For her CC loads I have a beagled (To 361") Lee 358 SWC in 9 bhn alloy These I load HOT for her ( Terrier has a 2" BBl)
They open up the size of close to half dollar! These are Summer CC rounds The winter CC round are run in 13 bhn alloy

[Flinch]

Sounds like a good system JW! I reckon you would need to have two different loads in cold country. Here in Houston you might have to shoot through a sweat shirt in winter so no big deal there. Thanks for the tip on the bullets. I think my Ruger will probably slug at about .357 but I think I will pretty soon buy an old Terrier so I'll need some larger bullets.

[JWFilips]

Just remember with soft alloy Fatter is better! If it slugs out at .357 that is Copper jacket territory ....So ...359" means alloy bullets territory!
You new guys just got to learn to understand that:D

[quail4jake]

My compliments, outpost! A beautiful brace of .38s, you're a wealth of knowledge. Thanks again!

While posting eye candy, here are my Webley & Scott, and Colt Police Positive .38 Colt New Police.

176329

[Bigslug]

I have checked around but can't find any Remington 148 grain HBWC's so I got a box of Hornadys and a box of Speers. I'm not looking for top accuracy but just something that will work reasonably well to get me up and running.

That should kinda give you some idea as to what bullet weight the gun was sighted for. . .

BUT. . .

Is this an adjustable sighted gun? In which case, it doesn't matter. This would incline me toward Outpost's diameter-appropriate 200 grain flat nose. Possibly the 193 grainer to facilitate rapid reloads as it tapers a little more at the nose.

[quail4jake]

Whoa! again, my compliments!

In my experience as a competitive pistol shooter, all brands of swaged 148-grain hollow-based wadcutters ARE NOT the same!!!! Winchester and Remington component bullets would ALWAYS out-shoot all of the other brands.

Winchester factory wadcutter bullets are no longer available at retail, but if you should find any at a gun show or yard sale you should BUY THEM ALL, as they were the best ever made by anyone.

Of current production 148-grain HBWC bullets Remington are the best, affordable bullets out there. There is no second place for serious target work in which you expect ten-shot, machine rest groups under 2 inches at 50 yards from a good target revolver. Lapua may shoot better for more money, but nothing else is anywhere near as good for the price.

The other popular brands, Speer, Hornady, Precision Delta, Star, are OK for plinking quality and practice loads, but are not of competition quality. If you can buy them cheaply enough that it doesn't pay to cast your own, they will do.

I use Lee dies with good results and had no problem with either flat-nosed or wadcutter bullets.

For metering small charges I use the RCBS Little Dandy measure.

The RCBS Little Dandy measure uses interchangeable, drums or rotors to throw a fixed powder charge. The proper drum is selected in accordance with a charge table, which lists the nominal charge weight thrown by each numbered rotor, using various powders. Selection of the proper drum or rotor should always be done by consulting current published sources of load data. You should then check the charge weight of YOUR drum against a reliable powder scale. I drop TEN charges onto the scale pan and mentally move the decimal. The drums are usually spot-on to the stated charge weight, or not more than 0.1 grain under. I have never found one which threw more than its stated charge weight. Once the charge weight thrown by your particular measure has been verified, some users leave the measures set up, or package the specific drum in the die box of the caliber in which it is suited. I use the same drums in multiple applications, so I therefore, I post this charge table in my loading area:

These are the rotors I use with my RCBS Little Dandy powder measure and the loads they are used for:

#00=1.7 Bullseye, 2.0 Titegroup, 2.5 AutoComp - .32 ACP with Accurate 31-087T or 31-090B (OK for steady use in light alloy frames), Also as “mild” factory-equivalent load with above bullets in .32 S&W Long for old pre WW2 S&W Hand Ejector.

#0 = 2.1 Bullseye, 3.0 AutoComp - full charge .32 ACP and pre-WW2 S&W .32 Long Hand Ejector with Accurate 31-087T or 31-090B (steel frames only).

#1 = 2.5 Bullseye, “Full charge” load for postwar .32 S&W Long with 31-090B, or .32 ACP with 73-gr. FMJ, practice load for .380 ACP with 35-120H. Approximates factory velocity with 36-155D in .38 S&W.

#3 = 3.0 Bullseye, standard load for .32 H&R Mag and .32-20 with 115 LFN, and .38 Spl.148 HBWC flush seated. Full-charge load in .38 S&W for Ruger .380 Rim revolvers with 36-155D.

#5 = 3.5 Bullseye for standard pressure 38 Special cast 146 DEWC or 160LFN

#7 = 4.0 Bullseye +P .38 Spl. with 158 Lead, and as 146 DEWC “full charge wadcutter” for use in .357 guns. Minimum charge with lubricated cast lead bullets in most .30 cal. rifles for “Silent Without Silencer” aka “Cat Sneeze.” Minimum charge for JACKETED bullet small game load in .223 Rem. To ensure reliable bore exit.

#8 = 4.5 Bullseye Standard target load for. 45 ACP 200-230 grain lead, and .38 +P equivalent in .357 brass with 160 to 180 grain LFN. Standard charge in .45 Schofield with 230-grain FN Cowboy bullet.

#9 = 5.0 Bullseye Full charge in .45 ACP for 230-grain FMJ hardball, full charge DEWC for .357 brass, Minimum charge for JACKETED bullet for “cat sneeze” for any .30 cal. rifle from 7.62x39 to .30-’06. Minimum charge in .45 Colt.

#12 = 6.5 Bullseye standard charge for. 45 Colt 250 LFN, 200-grain .44-40, .44 Mag 240-gr. “medium” velocity.

#13 = 7.2 Bullseye, Maximum charge .45 Colt 250-gr., Subsonic gallery load with 150-200-grain plain-based lead in 30-’06.

#15 = 8.4 Bullseye, 1100 fps with 240 JHP in. 44 Mag revolver, 100-yd. target load in smooth barrel .30-'06 plainbased 150 to 205 grains. Gallery practice with JACKETED bullets in .308 Win or .30-’06.

#18 = 14.5 #2400, standard load for .357 magnum 158 to 160 grain lead SWC or FN,

#19 = 15.4 #2400, full charge .357 Mag. 158 jacketed, 200-yard target gascheck load in any. 30 cal. from 7.62x39 to. 30-'06 using bullets from 150 to 205 grains. Also very good in. 30-30 and. 32-40!

#22 = 12.7 of Bullseye! Small game and gallery load for belted cases of .300 H&H and larger. Approximates .38-55 Winchester in .375 H&H with #375449, throws 17.9 #2400 for full charge Winchester 1892 .44-40.

#25 = 20.8 #2400, Standard charge 44 Mag. for 240-260-grain LFN and . 30-30 with 170-LFN. Good in. 30-'06, with either GC cast or jacketed bullets weighing from 150 to 200 grains.

[Flinch]

All great info! The wadcutters are just to get me up and running reloading again. Then I'll stop being lazy and cast a proper bullet!