First Attempt at Casting

[aaholland]

I tried my first casting today using a Lee 4-20 melting pot and a 4 cavity NOE 311-230-FN GC BLKOUT mould.


I got the temp of the pot up to 675. I fluxed the pot and heated my mould using a hot plate.


My first few drops were terrible. The bullets were not filled out at all. I figured out that I had to start the pour in each hole of the mold separately originally i was just starting the flow and dragging over each hole.


I stopped at about 20 drops in case I have to start all over. I wanted some feed back from the hive on how these look.


There were also 3 bullets that broke in half? Is that because I didn't let them cool long enough or did I do something else wrong?


http://i68.tinypic.com/2dvmkx3.jpg


http://i67.tinypic.com/18zl9z.jpg

[WebMonkey]

I know you stated the temperature, but it sure looks like too hot.

[Oklahoma Rebel]

what alloy are you using, I'd bet it is too hard, looks like pure linotype

[Oklahoma Rebel]

webmonkey do you mean the alloy is to hot, cuz it kinda looks like the mold wasn't hot enough, and aaholland, did you use a lighter or matches to cover the inside of the mold cavities with soot? it helps to do that on the first time, but if you didn't it isn't too late, just cover the cavities in an even coat of soot, doesn't have to be real thick, good luck, Travis

[aaholland]

what alloy are you using, I'd bet it is too hard, looks like pure linotype

It is Lyman #2 i bought from a guy that made it out of break weights and smelting it with tin and something. Will i not be able to use it for 300 blackout subs?

[aaholland]

webmonkey do you mean the alloy is to hot, cuz it kinda looks like the mold wasn't hot enough, and aaholland, did you use a lighter or matches to cover the inside of the mold cavities with soot? it helps to do that on the first time, but if you didn't it isn't too late, just cover the cavities in an even coat of soot, doesn't have to be real thick, good luck, Travis

I used Frankford Arsenal Bullet Mold Release instead of soot. I thought my mould was to hot as when i did my first drop even after 5 seconds the lead in the mould fell in liquid form when i dropped it. I read on another thread that the mould should be hot enough when the lead on top the spure plate turns hard at 3 seconds.

[jcren]

Too hot on the melt, too cool on the mold. The broken are due to the melt is still too hot when you opened the mold. Hotter mold until you get good fill out at 600 or less and spruce cools in 10 seconds or less. Just my .02 from my Lee 310-230.
Btw, you really have to keep the cadence up on those long skinny boolits. Stopping to check progress let's all that aluminum cool off.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

You are getting good advice, but it looks like you were already getting there. Frosted bullets of the right shape can shoot well. It is always possible that an alloy you buy, especially online, isn't quite what was stated, but it doesn't put you in danger like buying a stranger's reloads can.

You will find a lot of good advice here on producing cast bullets particularly well. But making them passable isn't particularly demanding.

[OnHoPr]

The two boolits between the center and 3 o clock look like you might get the hang of it. If it is a aluminum mold, try dipping the corner in the pot for a minute to heat up. They look frosted to me. That four banger might need more time to cool the boolits before opening. I know my Lee 501 440 gr takes longer to cool even though the sprues have cooled. Try cleaning the lead a couple of times. Are you sure about the alloy content, ???, but try different temps to start. Make sure the nozzle of the pot area is relatively clean. You may need to practice a bit and try to find out the little idiosyncrasies of the mold. Some of them can be temperamental with temps and wait before cut sprue times.

[Cherokee]

In the second picture I see some bullets that look good, just frosted. Keep the mold hot and roll the pot temp down a little. How do you know the pot temp with a Lee, are you using a thermometer ? I used Lee pots for years w/o a thermometer and never had that problem. You are on your way, you just need to work out some details.

[Yodogsandman]

I like them frosted like that! I'd adjust that spigot screw out a turn to dump more alloy faster. Adjust the heat down a little, too.

Good job!

[aaholland]

In the second picture I see some bullets that look good, just frosted. Keep the mold hot and roll the pot temp down a little. How do you know the pot temp with a Lee, are you using a thermometer ? I used Lee pots for years w/o a thermometer and never had that problem. You are on your way, you just need to work out some details.

I got a Lyman thermometer. I had the setting on the pot around 4.

So i should go down to 600 degrees or lower?

[aaholland]

I like them frosted like that! I'd adjust that spigot screw out a turn to dump more alloy faster. Adjust the heat down a little, too.

Good job!

Will do. Ill melt the boolits back down and try again with a lower temp and quicker alloy dump.

[Yodogsandman]

Just a little, say 25*F lower. I suspect your Lyman thermometer needs to be calibrated.

[Walter Laich]

You usually get crummy looking bullets as the mold heats up to casting temp. Sometimes 20 bullets is not enough to get it up to the correct temp.

Let the bullets sit in mold a bit longer before opening, will allow lead to cool a bit and not break apart

Casting is a bit of an art so keep working at it. Great thing is mistakes go back in pot and no one need ever know :-)

[OnHoPr]

I have a question as well on the 2nd pic for any of the experienced casters. Most of my casting has been with pure Pb. Then I have only cast alloy with the Lee molds, some pure Pb and a little bit of alloy in the past 20 years or so. So, I hit the magnifier mode to look at the boolits a little closer. The boolit on the center right looks pretty good. Now for the question, notice on many of the part lines that there is little round type circles and blemishes or whatever. What is causing that? A lot of the boolits seem to have sharp corners on the bottoms. The part line doesn't look smeared like a twisted opening. It doesn't look like fill out on the part line or something. If it is Lyman #2 there should be enough Sn in it to fill the part line. But, it is sporadic. Does this have something to do with vent lines maybe, or possibly the pour mode? The temps of the alloy or mold not in conjunction with one another to cause the condition of the part lines?

[Oklahoma Rebel]

that's what lead me to believe the mold was too cool, the alloy started to harden before ti filled, look at some of the gas check areas. poster, not trying to discourage you, yours are good for a first time, listen to the advice given and you will have it down iin no time, I set my mold, (2 cavity noe, 2 cavity lee) on top of the melter so that the mold part is directly above the alloy as it melts, with the sprue plate is resting on the edge, careful not to set the wood handles on the rim, they will burn. let us know how you are doing! good luck and welcome, Travis

[Yodogsandman]

Probably some outgassing from using mold release. Probably some vent lines were filled by mold release. I've never used mold release and only "smoke" a mold as a last ditch resort.

Some swirls and little holes are from just not filling the mold fast enough.

Sometimes there's some oils left from machining the mold. A mold sometimes needs to be cycled a few times before it goes away. 2 or 3 casting sessions. Sometimes you can just cast enough to get past that.

The OP describes the first casts as taking a long time to solidify, probably from the mold being preheated over 400*F. He then cast 20 to 30 boolits and the mold temperature came down and stabilized. His next casts probably would have got better and better with less voids and swirls. I'd guess that each casting session after this, his boolits will have less defects.

[Oklahoma Rebel]

id bet so as well

[runfiverun]

your mold was waaay plenty hot.
it actually needed to be run a bit cooler.
counting after the sprue flashes over and before opening the mold will give you a cadence, you can adjust your cadence through the count.
I vary between 5 and 7 depending on what I'm seeing from the mold.

[aaholland]

Ok i am going to try again today. Going to try 650 pot temp. Heat my mould up pretty hot on a hot plate. Going to set my pour speed up one turn. And clean the mould with soap and water before hand and heat to dry to ensure no water is present before casting

My question is what is a good round about cadence for starting out? I read 3 seconds on spure cooling but what about from pour start till the start of next pour? I am not looking for exact time just a starting point

[Moonie]

I like my spru to solidify at a 5 count. Get a hot-plate to pre-heat the mold and you will have fewer rejects when you first begin casting. I keep my pot at 700F and adjust my cadence to keep the spru count at about 5. When it creeps up I'll cool the mold briefly with a fan.

[Yodogsandman]

About 3 pours per minute. Set your mold preheat so the boolits cast with a 5 second flash over on the sprue. Cast faster or slower depending on how your boolits are coming out. With those long boolits, I'd wait a few seconds to open the mold. Let them harden up more to prevent breaking. Try not to dump the new boolits on the ones cooling off. It will all come to you in time. Shoot the good ones and melt the bad ones.

[OnHoPr]

Nobody, or maybe nobody knows unless they have the exact same mold as you about the cadence. Have your lead at that temp, have your mold hot, with clean pot and alloy, pour a smooth steady stream, after the sprues harden wait about 5 seconds before cutting. If the boolits come out frosted like the ones in the pic, pour another mold fill and wait for a minute before cutting the sprue. Then fill up the mold again and when the sprues harden do the 5 seconds again. If they are still frosted do the one minute wait again. This will stabilize your mold temp. Then you can go from there to getting your alloy temp in tune. If you are getting wrinkled boolits you need to heat up your mold. You may have to heat up your alloy too. It might take more than a few pours to get the mold and alloy temps balanced. If your sprues take quite a long time to harden (???) maybe you might be to hot with mold or alloy. That 1000 gr of lead will heat up or cool down the mold. Say after quite a few pours and your boolits are coming out still frosted then the alloy is to hot. Once you get a boolit like what is on the right of your pic just try to stay smooth.

[gwpercle]

Casting takes a while to master...or even just get proficient at . Both the alloy and mould must not be too hot or too cool .
Casting and watching results is the only way to learn. I start out with my Lee's pot dial set on 7.5 and preheat the mould on top of the pot then start casting to get it up to proper temperature....the first few go back in the pot.
I pour and make a puddle, it should take about 3-4 seconds for the puddle to freeze over, then I count to 5, 6, or 7 , to let the boolit fully harden and then open the mould...watch out for lead smearing on block top and underside of sprue plate.
When the boolits start getting frosty, that means your a tad warm. I like to cast just below a hard frosty look, I call it light frost...on my dial its about 7.25.
When everything is up to temperature(mould and metal) don't be in a rush , just get a comfortable pace going, fill completely , let puddle set up , count to 5 , open mould and dump. I have found it better to drop sprues in a box, not try and put back into the pot, going too fast will actually cause problems, NOE's hold the heat so no reason to go fast...just go at a steady comfortable pace....this ain't no race.
The NOE moulds are easy to cast with and will help you learn the ropes, don't despair it just takes doing and paying attention to what works and doesn't work. I started in 1968 and am still learning new things. That black mould release spray, I used it and it builds up, not the best stuff for cavities. A better release agent is Liquid Wrench Dry Lubricant...no wrinkles and no build up. Follow Al's directions for NOE mould use and you should be just fine.
Good luck, welcome to the addiction !
Gary

[Strtspdlx]

I wouldn't worry about numbers and worry about what the mold is showing you. I watch how it takes in lead. Meaning is it too cold and venting correctly. Then once it's full how quickly the sprue hardens. Meaning if it's hardens real quick I'm way too cold. If it takes a long time to harden or I cut the sprue and see soft lead I'm way too hot. You have to pay attention to the sprue. The mold will most definetely tell you what it wants. You just have to know what to look for. Get all the numbers and temps out of your head. I recently started casting with a thermometer. And honestly it takes my concentration off the entire task and puts it on one variable. I have a not well shot video on YouTube where I tried to show newcomers like myself how to vaguely cast and what to watch. If you'd like I can try and post a link.

[Oklahoma Rebel]

I drop my boolits in a box of sawdust to cushion them and make sure that they aren't hitting each other,when it gets crowded I push the cooler boolits to a corner and keep going

[aaholland]

Ok I think this time looked a lot better. I got the mould up to a temperature where the top of the sprue hardened around 5-6 seconds which was not to hard with the hot plate between low and medium it ended up being the perfect preheat for 5 seconds to harden. I went with a pot temp of 650 this time.

I see why people get mad at the lee pots. It just randomly started leaking like twice in an hour. I had to adjust the screw that changes the flow to stop it.

I made some other mistakes such as not closing the mould the whole way. (Actually the screw holding the metal top in place got loose so i just had to tighten it and make sure i closed it the whole way).

I plan to power coat these unless you guys see a reason I should melt them down again.

http://i63.tinypic.com/2vtv96e.jpg

http://i67.tinypic.com/mjtq39.jpg

http://i67.tinypic.com/dhe4hw.jpg

[Yodogsandman]

Just melt down the ones that aren't perfect. Melt down any with voids, rounded bases or bands and any with bases that didn't cut off square. You got a lot of good ones there! You can expect each casting session will get better.

Now, wait for about three weeks to let your boolits age harden to almost full potential.

Tighten the screw on the sprue plate so it will just close by gravity when turned to the side. Clean any smears off from the backside with steel wool, rubbing with a wood stick or rub with an ingot. Did you lube the top of the mold with 2 cycle oil or Bullplate?

Rather than powder coat, I like to tumble lube with 3 coats of Ben's Liquid Lube (BLL) on rifle boolits and just one on pistol bullets. I found that I couldn't get the best accuracy with rifles using PC. BLL is made from 60% Johnsons liquid floor wax and 40% Lee Liquid Alox. Seat the gas check and size boolits. Give boolits a thin coat by swirling in a plastic tub and let dry on wax paper... repeat two more times and load em up.

[jcren]

Looks like a good start to me. Just in case you didn't know, fins are typically caused by a spec of lead on the mold face. Will just look like a small shiney spot. I have used BLL and pc both for my Lee 230 and NOE 165 and did not have leading with either. I prefer the smooth, hard finish of pc.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

http://i67.tinypic.com/mjtq39.jpg

aaholland,
welcome to the site.

Long skinny rifle boolits are troublesome to cast, to say the least. For your second time casting, you sure got some real good results, especially with the witches brew of advice you got in this thread. Keep up the good work.

[OnHoPr]

Those will shoot, now make a couple thousand in about 8 sessions. You will see more on how the mold works at certain temps along with the certain temps of the alloy. You will go ahhh, then ahhh again, then ahhh again, etc. You will gain smoothness on your pours and cadence.



Witches Brew!! this aint Halloween, that's when the rut starts.

[aaholland]

Ok i have gas checks but what happens if i shoot these without them? Bad accuratey?

[Yodogsandman]

Accuracy without GC's will depend on the velocity, the fit, the alloy, the lube and the powder load. Keep velocities low, say under 1500 FPS. Be sure that the boolit fits your chamber well and isn't undersized. Use a good lube. Use an alloy that is weak enough to obturate and fill your bore at pressures from your powder choice. I normally use a GC if it has a shank for one.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

Ok i have gas checks but what happens if i shoot these without them? Bad accuratey?
A lot of shooters have no problems shooting a boolit like that without a GC. But, accuracy can be effected by an imperfect base, hence the GC, it improves the boolit base's uniformity.

[gwpercle]

Looking GOOD aa , your getting the hang of it.

A tip for Lee bottom pour pots....keep a low pan under it , large enough so the whole unit can sit in it and low enough so there is no interference with the mould/fill spout . Mine's an old jelly-roll pan . When it drips all the alloy will stay in the pan and not all over the bench top. I can tell you from experience...that pan is a bench saver.
Gary

[44man]

I would also say the mold was too hot. Slow down.

[flint45]

Those boolits look pretty darn good shoot em up dont be afraid to experament a little that to me is part of the fun. One time i I put all my relly bad boolits together after casting some boolits for the .303 about 15 lubed em and shot them they shot almost as good as the good ones now days Iam alot less picky and use boolits that some would throw out.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

Those boolits look pretty darn good shoot em up dont be afraid to experament a little that to me is part of the fun. One time i I put all my relly bad boolits together after casting some boolits for the .303 about 15 lubed em and shot them they shot almost as good as the good ones now days Iam alot less picky and use boolits that some would throw out.
Funny, it was about 5 years ago, I was just cutting my teeth on casting 22, using a NOE mold, this was before I started using a hotplate to pre-heat the mold. Anyway, I wound up with a huge pile of wrinkly, but well filled out boolits. I put a GC on them and TL and loaded them with a small dose of Red Dot in 222rem cases for an old savage 340. I could hit a squirrel sized target at 50 yards....but large patterns at 100 :( ...That was before I got a decent seat die...that dang loosey goosey Lee seat die makes ammo with a lot of runout.

[aaholland]

Looking GOOD aa , your getting the hang of it.

A tip for Lee bottom pour pots....keep a low pan under it , large enough so the whole unit can sit in it and low enough so there is no interference with the mould/fill spout . Mine's an old jelly-roll pan . When it drips all the alloy will stay in the pan and not all over the bench top. I can tell you from experience...that pan is a bench saver.
Gary
Good idea a few of the spills melted into my table top :wink:

[aaholland]

Accuracy without GC's will depend on the velocity, the fit, the alloy, the lube and the powder load. Keep velocities low, say under 1500 FPS. Be sure that the boolit fits your chamber well and isn't undersized. Use a good lube. Use an alloy that is weak enough to obturate and fill your bore at pressures from your powder choice. I normally use a GC if it has a shank for one.

I am going to slug my barrel this weekend to determine what size i need to size these boolets to.

[aaholland]

Oh it is becoming an addiction already. I stopped by my tire shop and asked if i could have their wheel weights. They said ok.

[Idaho45guy]

Casting takes a while to master...or even just get proficient at . Both the alloy and mould must not be too hot or too cool .
Casting and watching results is the only way to learn. I start out with my Lee's pot dial set on 7.5 and preheat the mould on top of the pot then start casting to get it up to proper temperature....the first few go back in the pot.
I pour and make a puddle, it should take about 3-4 seconds for the puddle to freeze over, then I count to 5, 6, or 7 , to let the boolit fully harden and then open the mould...watch out for lead smearing on block top and underside of sprue plate.
When the boolits start getting frosty, that means your a tad warm. I like to cast just below a hard frosty look, I call it light frost...on my dial its about 7.25.
When everything is up to temperature(mould and metal) don't be in a rush , just get a comfortable pace going, fill completely , let puddle set up , count to 5 , open mould and dump. I have found it better to drop sprues in a box, not try and put back into the pot, going too fast will actually cause problems, NOE's hold the heat so no reason to go fast...just go at a steady comfortable pace....this ain't no race.

Gary

This pretty much mirrors what I've learned in casting a few thousand boolits... Though I've been using nothing but steel molds and have gotten pretty good at my cadence. I typically run two two-cavity molds at the same time with two different bullet designs. I also have two 20lb Lee pots set at 7 or so. One pot is used to refill the second pot which I am dipping from. I fill one mold, set it down, pick up the second mold, fill it, then set it down. Then pick up the first mold, whack it open, dump the boolits, refill it, set it down, then dump and refill the second mold, then back to the first. I can do about 30-40 boolits before I start getting frosting issues. When those start, I lay the molds down in the open position and start collecting the scrap, organize the boolits into groups of ten, double-check my lead temp with the gauge (keep it around 700-750ish depending on the particular mold), then I am ready to rock and roll again. I do an average of 200 boolits an hour. Voids and imperfections in the bullet are almost always due to too low of temp of either the lead or the mold... If I need to take a break, I rest the molds on the edge of the pots.

[Idaho45guy]

This is what the set up looks like at my dad's shop where he casts about 40k bullets a year. I did about 5k with this setup...

176951176952

[shoot-n-lead]

...that dang loosey goosey Lee seat die makes ammo with a lot of runout.

Yeah, if you are gonna use a Lee seating die, it will teach you to run that bullet up in the seating die, bring it out...turn the cartridge a third of a turn and run it back into the die, bring it down and spin a third of a turn and run in back into the seating die and then crimp it...takes almost all of that runout, out of the bullet. BUT...it is much better to just purchase a quality seating die, as you did.

[aaholland]

Ok another question. Will wheel weight clip on lead work to mold these 300 blackout bullets? My lead source sells $1 per pound of clip on WW and $2 lyman #2. Last time i bought the $2 lead but i wanted to know if i can spend less.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

Ok another question. Will wheel weight clip on lead work to mold these 300 blackout bullets? My lead source sells $1 per pound of clip on WW and $2 lyman #2. Last time i bought the $2 lead but i wanted to know if i can spend less.
That will depend on what pressure you load to? Subsonic? or J-word rifle velocities?
with that said,
ponder this, boolits cast "air-cooled" COWW is just a bit softer than #2, and boolits that are heat treated COWW or cast "water-dropped" COWW is harder than #2.

edit: have you read this?
http://www.lasc.us/CastBulletNotes.htm

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

...that dang loosey goosey Lee seat die makes ammo with a lot of runout.

Yeah, if you are gonna use a Lee seating die, it will teach you to run that bullet up in the seating die, bring it out...turn the cartridge a third of a turn and run it back into the die, bring it down and spin a third of a turn and run in back into the seating die and then crimp it...takes almost all of that runout, out of the bullet. BUT...it is much better to just purchase a quality seating die, as you did.
It should be reiterated that the context of my quote was in regards to Lee's Rifle seat dies. I am OK with their pistol seat dies...well for the most part [smilie=1:

[aaholland]

That will depend on what pressure you load to? Subsonic? or J-word rifle velocities?
with that said,
ponder this, boolits cast "air-cooled" COWW is just a bit softer than #2, and boolits that are heat treated COWW or cast "water-dropped" COWW is harder than #2.

edit: have you read this?
http://www.lasc.us/CastBulletNotes.htm

Reading your link looks like clip on ww are almost the same hardness as #2.

I am shooting exclusively subsonic

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

Reading your link looks like clip on ww are almost the same hardness as #2.

I am shooting exclusively subsonic
Subsonic pressures are low, air cooled COWW will be fine. If you have published data for that from a manual, many times they list pressure. There is info in that link about Max alloy Pressure.

[aaholland]

Can i melt down hi tek coated bullets to reclaim the lead?

[Yodogsandman]

Yes, don't sniff the fumes! Do it outdoors a little at a time if neighbors are close by.