Lee Factory crimp die and cast boolits?

[crabo]

I have heard of the Lee Factory crimp die and I think that it puts a crimp anywhere you want it. Right? Do I understand the concept?

How does this work with lead boolits?

Thanks,

Crabo

[44man]

It works OK with hard boolits but I think it will size soft boolits when shot. What I don't like is that the die seems to leave permanent marks on the brass, might shorten the life.
If you are going to try it, adjust for just enough crimp to hold a boolit under recoil in the revolver, don't overdo it.
If you see signs of the crimp left after firing, it has not opened far enough and will make boolits smaller. You will need harder lead and less crimp.

[Bret4207]

You can adjust for lead. There's a bit of learning to it and it will distort even a jacketed bullet if over done. I use them with complete satisfaction.

[VTDW]

You can adjust for lead. There's a bit of learning to it and it will distort even a jacketed bullet if over done. I use them with complete satisfaction.

+1

The LFCD is all I use and with very good success.

[selmerfan]

+1, I don't load cast boolits for my pistol without it!
Selmerfan

[buck1]

I pulled some loaded cast boolits after useing the lee pistol crimp die. It did resize them too small. Boolits were bhn 15. FWIW.....Buck

[Down South]

I noticed the other day while loading some .357 Mag bullets with Win brass that the FCD was swaging my boolits. This doesn’t seem to happen with Rem brass. I’m either going to hone out the die a couple thou or knock the frekin bushing out. I don’t really need post sizing. All post sizing does in my mind is correct other reloading problems that shouldn’t be there to begin with. I do like the crimp in a station by itself and the FCD does a wonderful job of that. Like stated above you can over do the crimp. Usually only ½ to ¾ turn is all that is needed for a cast boolit.


I have heard of the Lee Factory crimp die and I think that it puts a crimp anywhere you want it. Right? Do I understand the concept?

Crabo, I don’t fully understand what you mean by putting the crimp anywhere you want it. Only the very edge of the case will be crimped. The die can be adjusted for different case lengths. Of course the bullet can be seated at whatever depth works best for you and crimped

[selmerfan]

Yep, 1/2 to 3/4 turn is all that's needed.
Selmerfan

[Pepe Ray]

The hand gun cartridge version FCD was created specifically for semi-automatic pistols and the frequent feeding jams incurred with tight chambers and reloaded ammo which becomes enlarged thru the body with old type loading dies. It is indispensable for my 1911 Gov't.
Using them for revolver rounds is a 'maybe' thing. They can work great when you use care in adjusting them. However, when using soft and large bullets the body sizing ring becomes a handicap. If you find your boolets being over re sized go back to the old standard seater/crimper type of die.
Pepe Ray

[MTWeatherman]

Lee makes two "factory crimp dies" . The one for rifles is called the "factory crimp die" and only provides a crimp. The one for pistols is called the "carbide factory crimp die" and resizes the cartridge as well as crimping.

The factory crimp die for rifles, IMHO, is just as friendly to cast bullets as other crimp dies while being more versatile in the process...put the crimp where you want it.

The carbide factory crimp die for pistols is not as friendly to cast bullets...it wants to size the entire loaded cartridge...not good if you're planning on shooting the oversized bullets most cast shooters require. Suspect that most of those reporting problems with the "factory crimp dies" are using the pistol version. Therein also lies the problem...they don't make those rifle type crimp dies for pistols although I did read on this board that the 44-40 rifle die can be used with success on the .44 Mag.

[Down South]

I kinda forgot about the semi autos even though I have five Smiths that are semi auto. I’ve never had any problems with reloads with any of them but a couple of them have only seen jacketed ammo. Using jacketed ammo the FCD would do a great job for a tight chamber thus reducing or eliminating jams. I will be running cast through the other two at any time now so I may have to doctor the FCD dies for them too.

[DLCTEX]

If I get a drag when cycling down out of the FCD for pistols it's time to acess what the problem is. Usually it's either a long case that hit the crimp portion of the seating die, causing a buckle in the case, or shaved lead causing a bulge. I think that the sizing portion of the FDC should only be an indicator that something needs correcting. DALE

[crabo]

Crabo, I don’t fully understand what you mean by putting the crimp anywhere you want it. Of course the bullet can be seated at whatever depth works best for you and crimped[/QUOTE]

That's what I meant. Thanks,

Crabo

[trickyasafox]

maybe he's talking about those cartridges you see with the crimp midway down- to prevent set back? (not sure if thats what its actually for, but you'll see it sometimes on 38spl and 45acp)

[Down South]

maybe he's talking about those cartridges you see with the crimp midway down- to prevent set back? (not sure if thats what its actually for, but you'll see it sometimes on 38spl and 45acp)

That's what I was thinking at first but now I believe he was referring to different bullet seating depths and being able to crimp at that depth.

[dromia]

I use the rifle FCD die on match ammuniton were the case length in the case batch is trimmed to the same.

Along with consistent case neck thickness, mouth diameter and case neck brittleness the FCD rifle crimp can greatly assist consistent ignition.

The down side is it is hard on case mouths and FCD'ed cases require annealing more frequently.

[MTWeatherman]

Use of a FCD has definite merits in many cast bullet/j-bullet loadings for rifles. The collet type crimp provides a firmer crimp less prone to lead shaving on a cast bullet than a roll or taper crimp. As already noted, the crimp is provided at the same point on the case but by adjusting the seating depth of the bullet, it allows this crimp anywhere on that bullet. Although crimp and lube grooves exist to accomplish crimping on cast bullets, they may not be in the correct place for correct feeding on some rifles and j-bullets may or may not have cannelures at all. This becomes extremely important on some rifle/cartridge combinations such as the 95 Marlin in 45-70 which requires bullets seated deeper than some bullet designs allow. The FCD provides enough force to create it's own cannelure on a bullet (cast or jacketed) to allow the use of bullets that would not otherwise be useable.

On a personal level, for other than j-bullets, I'd be hesitant to use the Carbide FCD version supplied for pistols. However, if your cast bullet is near groove diameter, bullet resizing in the loaded cartridge would likely not be an issue...assuming you don't have some thick-walled cases. I have considered trying the .44-40 rifle die for my .44 Mag but since I roll crimp as a separate step in crimp/lube grooves for bullets I use, don't feel a real need at this point.

[35remington]

"The hand gun cartridge version FCD was created specifically for semi-automatic pistols and the frequent feeding jams incurred with tight chambers and reloaded ammo which becomes enlarged thru the body with old type loading dies."

Let's be clear on one point - "old type loading dies" produce perfectly acceptable automatic pistol ammunition. They do NOT "enlarge thru the body" by some "fault" in their design. In nearly every instance that chambering cannot occur with reloaded ammunition, the bullet used is either oversized or tipped in the seating process, producing a bulge that prevents chambering.

If this is occuring and it is "corrected" by the Lee FCD, bullet pull is reduced when the oversized round is passed through the die. It is better to locate the source of the problem and fix it first. If rounds are gauged, you don't need the FCD. If you are using one, check to be sure the bullet retention in the case is not being adversely affected by testing bullet setback.

Know for sure what the FCD for pistol rounds does in your own use before you take the word of anyone on the internet. Understand how it works, and be aware there are drawbacks to any "solution" to a problem.

Regarding the rifle FCD, a crimp ring is left at the case mouth that does not get ironed out on firing. This tends to swage the bullet to a smaller diameter as it passes through the reduced diameter ring at the end of the neck on the way out. As always, check accuracy to be sure the FCD is not negatively affecting your cast bullet loads before taking for granted that it is an improvement.

In some of my loads there is a downside. Check to be sure.

[MTWeatherman]

"Regarding the rifle FCD, a crimp ring is left at the case mouth that does not get ironed out on firing. This tends to swage the bullet to a smaller diameter as it passes through the reduced diameter ring at the end of the neck on the way out. As always, check accuracy to be sure the FCD is not negatively affecting your cast bullet loads before taking for granted that it is an improvement.

In some of my loads there is a downside. Check to be sure."


Good advice from 35 Remington for any crimping of cast bullets. Suspect that there may be more bullet diameter reduction and damage than we realize with some of our roll and taper crimps as well...especially with softer alloys. 44Mans advice to use the minimum amount of crimp necessary is a good rule to follow no matter the crimp type used. I'm of the opinion that any type of crimp can be counted on to do some type of damage to a cast bullet upon firing, unless it is a very hard alloy. For that reason, I confine crimping of cast bullets to lever rifles and heavy recoiling revolvers where its absolutely necessary to hold the bullet in place during recoil and set that crimp at the minimum necessary (that extends brass life as well). Granted, since crimping usually does create more uniform ignition...especially with slower powders, it can have cast bullet applications as well as jacketed. However, usually (IMHO), where cast bullets are concerned, a better solution wherever possible (bolts, single shots, and stack magazine fed semi-autos) would be to chose a better burning powder for the application and avoid the potential bullet damage that crimping of a lead bullet could cause.

[snuffy]

Regarding the rifle FCD, a crimp ring is left at the case mouth that does not get ironed out on firing. This tends to swage the bullet to a smaller diameter as it passes through the reduced diameter ring at the end of the neck on the way out. As always, check accuracy to be sure the FCD is not negatively affecting your cast bullet loads before taking for granted that it is an improvement.

You're kidding, right? You don't think the pressure of the powder does anything to that neck? The neck of a rifle shell is thrown outward against the chambers neck portion BEFORE the boolit has moved much if at all. That pressure is more than enough to iron out any crimp. MAYBE if the case neck were made of steel and thicker.

The neck of the brass cartridge is what seals the gases from flowing back around the outside of the case. Of course very low pressure lead loads sometimes leak around the outside of the neck, as evidenced by the black soot on them. THEN maybe a heavy crimp could scrape a lead boolit on the way past it.

[Buckshot]

.............I won't be using the FCD for loads with the Rossi M92 in 357. It was sizing down the cases (new R-P and old nickle Western) loaded with cast at .359". Loads fired using that die were poorer then the exact same loads when I was using the crimper in the seater die before.

..............Buckshot

[44man]

Snuffy, that is something I question, always have. Pressure can not fully work on the neck until the boolit is out of the way. I cannot picture the neck just opening all at once to leave the boolit hanging.
I have also seen too many cases with crimp remaining when soft lead was used. Using hard lead or jacketed with the same load irons the mouth smooth.
Since almost all cast boolit loads for rifle or pistol are in the lower pressure ranges, I would not bet on necks flying open all at once.
Maybe with a long bullet that goes in past the shoulder, gas can go around the boolit and force the brass open however it seems to me that every boolit would then be gas cut before leaving the brass and the throats would fill with lead fast. I never see any indication that there is a gas path opened around a boolit. High speed photos of bullets leaving the muzzle do not show powder smoke ahead of bullets either.
Brass is soft and the expansion should flow foreward with the pressure rise, following the boolit out.
If I am wrong, someone has to prove it to me.

[44man]

I have found a perfect use for the FCD. I had some boolits with loose gas checks so I used a rod in the die to allow a boolit to just go in the right amount to crimp the front edge of the gas check.

[TGM]

I use the FCD when reloading 45 colt. My bullets are on the soft side and I have no problems . You have to set the die to just give you a good roll crimp.

TGM

[Cloudpeak]

I've loaded about 20,000 lead loads in 9mm, 40 S&W and 45 ACP on my LNL over the past few years and never saw the need for a Lee FCD. I slug the bore, size the bullet appropriately, load test rounds (without primer and powder) and check for proper fit to the chamber and for bullet setback after chambering the "blanks" several times.

If I get setback, I reduce the diameter of the expander plug, load up some new dummy rounds and re-check for set-back. I seat and taper crimp in two operations and use the taper crimp die to remove the case mouth bell. Seems to work well for me.

Cloudpeak

[Bob Krack]

Does the "crimp" usually "swage" the boolit (or part of it) to less than desired?

Vic

[DLCTEX]

You set the die to crimp as much as you want. I think a lot of people tend to use too much crimp. DALE

[35remington]

"You're kidding, right? You don't think the pressure of the powder does anything to that neck?" (Regarding the ring left by the FCD in rifle calibers).

Snuffy, if the pressure ironed out the factory crimp, it would be gone, and the crimped area would be the same diameter as the rest of the neck. Pressure does not remove the factory crimp nor even flatten it completely since the crimp is still present post firing. Lower pressure cast bullet loads are especially affected, but crimp remains on 50-60,000 psi loads, too.

"Springback" does not account for this. Note that the springback of the brass is different in the crimped area than the rest of the neck. Essentially there isn't any; at least, much less than the rest of the brass in the neck. It is prudent to question whether your (usually) oversized lead bullets are affected as they exit the case.

Just be aware of what it's doing to your loads; I haven't found the same downside with jacketed bullets.

[selmerfan]

My advice would be to not overcrimp your loads. I use it just as a separate crimp die, 1/2 turn is my normal adjustment, 3/4 is what I used to use on heavy .454 loads, but I've sold that barrel. I use it with my .357 Maximum because when I was trying to crimp even a little bit in the seat die, I was crinkling some of the cases, I assume because of the long length of the case that is unsupported while applying the crimp. I like the FCD because it fully supports the case wall while crimping.
Selmerfan

[crabo]

I guess I should have explained myself better, but I got a great education by not expressing myself well enough. I was wanting to deep seat longer boolits for my 357 lever gun.

I think I am much better off to get a mold from Mountain Molds with the nose length, meplat size, front bearing width, and crimp groove exactly where I want it. Of course it may take a couple of tries before I get there, but the journey is at least half the fun.

CRabo

[44man]

Someone makes a nice cannalure rolling tool (I think it's Magma.) Then you can put a crimp groove wherever you need one.
Has anyone here tried one yet?

[leadman]

I found an advantage to using the FCD with j-bullets in my 7mm Rem Mag Encore after I bought the RCBS Casemaster for checking case and bullet runout.
I did find my cases had from .002" to .005" of runout after sizing that I could not eleminate with 2 different sizer dies.
I would charge the case and seat the bullet and check runout. It was usually unchanged so I would apply a very light crimp with the FCD. This would reduce the runout usually to .002" to .003". If the runout was still too much I would recrimp and rotate 180' and recrimp again. This would reduce the runout.

I'll have to check some of my cast loads to see if this works with them.

When I shot these loads it did reduce the group size by about a quarter of previous size.

The FCD works on the same principle as the fitting crimper I used to make hydraulic hoses for heavy equipment.

I also have seen factory 30-06 ammo that was fired and the factory crimp was not enlarged to the size of the rest of the neck. It will still be slightly tighter even after sizing. Trimming or the Lyman M die takes care of this.

[Ricochet]

Someone makes a nice cannalure rolling tool (I think it's Magma.) Then you can put a crimp groove wherever you need one.
Has anyone here tried one yet?No need for it with the Factory Crimp Die. It makes a cannelure perfectly matched to the crimp, wherever you want it, with cast boolits or those redcoat things.

[leftiye]

44Man, If we're talking about the same thang, C-H makes a cute little cannelure tool. I use it to put cannelures on my 55 gr. Horny S-X bullets in .223 cal.. It is necessary I find for use in my Mini14, otherwise, the case mouths get dinged when chambering, and I blow primers and get 11"X1.5" vertical groups. If you can find a smooth place to put the cannelure on lead boolits, it should work, I'd guess.