Potential Accuracy Glock 19 with cast

[6622729]

What is the potential accuracy of a Glock 19 at 25 yards free hand? That means no rest, no leaning against anything, just standing in free space with two hands on the gun using unmagnified mechanical sights. The attached picture tells you where I am right now at 27 yards with the 4" KKM barrel. Ignore the miss way up at the top (picture is sideways). That is not a recent shot.

175597

[msinc]

I played with a Glock 17 and 19 a few years back...sounds like you are not doing bad at all. I did a lot of trigger work to the ones I had. Ghost connector and Wolf spring kit. That helped the most. I also tried different sights. The question is what size groups are you shooting now, vs. what size do you want to shoot???? I was able to keep them all in a 4 inch group at 25 yards with either gun if I did my part. I also was using Blue Dot powder and 120 grain Lee bullets, but you are close enough and maybe even better with your ammo.

[6622729]

I played with a Glock 17 and 19 a few years back...sounds like you are not doing bad at all. I did a lot of trigger work to the ones I had. Ghost connector and Wolf spring kit. That helped the most. I also tried different sights. The question is what size groups are you shooting now, vs. what size do you want to shoot???? I was able to keep them all in a 4 inch group at 25 yards with either gun if I did my part. I also was using Blue Dot powder and 120 grain Lee bullets, but you are close enough and maybe even better with your ammo.

I guess I should have added that my Glock is completely stock except for the barrel. I had the Double Diamond connector installed at one point but I didn't feel it as 3.5lbs so I took it back out after shooting it for a while. The Glock connector feels identical to me. I also took back out the tungsten recoil spring assembly in favor of the stock plastic one. Things got instantly better for me. Sights are Trjicon night sights. My load is Lee 124gr round nose tumble lubed with 45/45/10 or Berry's 125gr plated round nose. OAL is 1.135-1.140 in either case over 5.2gr BE86 and CCI #500 primer. Separate Lee crimp.

If you were able to get 4" groups then I have a ways to go. I guess I'll keep shrinking my target. I seem to be able to adjust and hit it so I'll just keep on the paper plates until I don't miss it anymore and then to a smaller circle.

[B. Lumpkin]

3-5 inches would be normal. The gun can usually do better benched.

[6622729]

3-5 inches would be normal. The gun can usually do better benched.

Ok, that helps. So I'm almost at a consistent 9" now. Once I stop missing a 9" paper plate at all I'll start cutting down the diameter. I'm happy here at 9". If I could get to 5", maybe 6", that would be fantastic. I know the limitation right now is all me. I think my load has that 5" in it.

[Mk42gunner]

Ok, that helps. So I'm almost at a consistent 9" now. Once I stop missing a 9" paper plate at all I'll start cutting down the diameter. I'm happy here at 9". If I could get to 5", maybe 6", that would be fantastic. I know the limitation right now is all me. I think my load has that 5" in it.
Sorry to bust your bubble, but right now you don't know what the limitation is.

You need to shoot from a bench rested position to see just how much of that nine inch plus group is you, and how much is the equipment.

Robert

[dverna]

Accuracy cannot be determined free hand, unless you are a Master class shooter, and even those men and women use a rest for load testing.

The gun should be able to hold under 4" at 25 yards with decent ammo. 3" is not uncommon.

The Glock is not a target gun but it does do a good job for what it is. I have three of them so I am not bashing them - I like them. The one I shoot the most has a Lone Wolf barrel and it holds about two inches at 10 yards hand held slow fire, but I am 40 years past my peak as a pistol shooter. Very few can outshoot the capability of the gun.

[B. Lumpkin]

Ok, that helps. So I'm almost at a consistent 9" now. Once I stop missing a 9" paper plate at all I'll start cutting down the diameter. I'm happy here at 9". If I could get to 5", maybe 6", that would be fantastic. I know the limitation right now is all me. I think my load has that 5" in it.

KKM makes good barrels. I have them installed in my Beretta Ball guns. I would recommend you bench the gun a couple times to get a good measure of the accuracy potential of your gun and load. I know you had the conditions of no rest, standing etc., but we can't answer THAT question. What you are really asking with that question is how good can YOU shoot.

First, I applaud you for shooting at 27 yards. It is rather refreshing to read of someone shoot at that range when all the rage is 7 yards "for defense training" or some such.

Keep practicing. While shooting, tell your self one thing "Front sight, front sight, front sight". The gun has the mechanical accuracy to shoot better than 9 inches. You just have to do your part and keep practicing as you are. No mag dumps, no fast shooting. Make every shot count.

[Ola]

Hmm, let's see.. only one 9mm pistol was not able to make it under 4 inches (rested, 25 metres / 5 shot group). I have test shot the same way for at least 20 different stock pistols. Some were high end, most regular stuff like Glocks. The Glocks are as accurate as the rest of the bunch. Some of them are little bit more, some are little bit less accurate.

In this respect your goal should be 3".

[Char-Gar]

I do not find the Glock an easy gun to shoot well. The plastic frame and the striker firing system works against fine accuracy. So I don't worry about the size of group. At any range I would use it against a human target, it has plenty of accuracy to get the job done.

I have XS Big Dot sights on mine. I just cover the area where I want the bullet to go and press the trigger. It has never failed to do what I ask of it. I do not ask it to shoot small groups on paper targets. It is the junk yard dog of pistols and won't show well at Westminster!

[6622729]

Sorry to bust your bubble, but right now you don't know what the limitation is.

You need to shoot from a bench rested position to see just how much of that nine inch plus group is you, and how much is the equipment.

Robert

No, I do know the load is more accurate than what I'm currently shooting because I can sense and see some of the mistakes I'm making but I get the point. All I am saying is that there is plenty for me to do yet before I have to wonder if that last shot was me or the load. Right now I know when it's me. :lol:. If a guy is supposed to be able to get 4" at 25yds free hand and I'm currently at 9". I'll be very happy to see a consistent 6" group.

In regards to the Glock not being a target gun, I know. It was originally purchased as a defensive handgun. Glock, and the metal Trijicon night sights were strongly suggested by a police officer/ex military friend. It was after I started shooting it that I developed a desire to get better with it and then to start casting for it and target shooting. I am building a Glock 34 as a range toy target gun with stock sights to start. That will be factory new ammo until I can get a KKM barrel for it so I can shoot my cast reloads.

In regards to practicing at 27yds, thanks for the nice comment. I am enjoying the challenge. It's not a special distance. It's a 25yd line that my target is a yard behind and I'm stepped back from the shooting line by a yard as well. No one is ever at the range shooting handgun at the same time or I would not stand back like that. It makes it easier to recover my brass from the concrete. The place is a trash pit making it a fantastic source for brass but difficult to find my brass when it lands in the pile.

Most importantly I guess is that I am finding no difference in accuracy between factory new, factory reloads and my reloads of Berry's copper plated or my cast lead. I'm shooting Lee 124gr round nose, Lee 124gr truncated cone and NOE 358-135 hollow points and while the POI might be a little different between them, it only takes a shot or two to settle in with the new projectile and be back to the 9" paper plate. Concentrating on that front sight and taking up the pretravel in the trigger have been the most recent improvements. I'm in my 50's , wear glasses and get between 100-150 rounds in a week. I'll keep plugging away.

[6622729]

whoops, I just double tapped the post. Lol

[runfiverun]

try a bigger black dot instead of the orange one.
once you can hold your front sight in precise alignment with the bigger dot you'll start throwing your holes more in one area of the target.

[B. Lumpkin]

Get some B-8 pistol targets for practice. You can get a 100 count box for $17.99. Another good one is the B16 target, but it's a bit smaller. I like the B-8 so it can catch those shots I throw way out there...

Add in some pasties and you are good to go!! The Glock is capable of decent accuracy. Fitting a Barsto barrel will make Glock capable of great accuracy.


As for ammo, it goes like this for me: Jacketed bullets number one, Cast set up for the gun number two, with plated being last choice. I've never gotten plated to shoot as accurately as a quality cast bullet in the 9mm, and I've never gotten cast to shoot as well as a good jacketed bullet in 9mm. Zero, Nosler, and Sierra top the heap for good, accurate, jacketed bullets.

[yondering]

As for ammo, it goes like this for me: Jacketed bullets number one, Cast set up for the gun number two, with plated being last choice. I've never gotten plated to shoot as accurately as a quality cast bullet in the 9mm, and I've never gotten cast to shoot as well as a good jacketed bullet in 9mm. Zero, Nosler, and Sierra top the heap for good, accurate, jacketed bullets.

I have, and regularly do, but it goes against conventional cast bullet wisdom. Light weight, high velocity, and powder coated bullets give great accuracy in both of my Glock 19s, with either OEM or aftermarket barrels. I'm using the Lee 95-RF (TL grooves bored out to straight wall), dropping at 102gr, at 1500 fps, and also a 105gr hollow point from a modified Lee 120-TC at 1450 fps. Both shoot as well as any jacketed loads in those guns.

[Ola]

If you are in doubt with 9mm pistols, you know, not sure how accurate they are: buy some high end ammo and try out.

The go-to-ammunition to use in accuracy testing is NORMA K-pist (if it is available somewhere?) . It was the most accurate ammo in 8 out of 10 pistols. The K-pist is (was?) Swedish submachinegun ammo and in short pistol barrels the velocity changes were huge, but still it was incredibly accurate.

2 out 10 were more accurate with Lapua Combat or some high end American HP-ammo (fe. Speer GoldDot, Federal Hydra-Shock...).

EDIT: I Just found a company that is now making the bullet used in the NORMA K-pist ammo:
http://www.ammotech.se/startsida/products

(it is the 123 gr TC)

[msinc]

I had a KKM barrel and I also had several Lone Wolf barrels when I had Glocks. Both barrels worked real good with cast bullets, the KKM looked better inside. I remember getting an aftermarket part that was the little takedown "thing"...it was extended to make it easy to grip, but it also was made different where it engaged the barrel. Not a lot of difference, and I remember it required some shooting to "seat" before it worked its best. It worked and did what it was supposed to do, which was enhance accuracy by causing the barrel to lock up the same every time. It was like $45 for a little chip of metal, but it worked...sorry I cant even remember the name of the thing. You might want to try one.

[Lloyd Smale]

Like was suggested. Before you can make any determination you need to sit at the bench and work up an accurate load. NOBODY can just grab a handgun throw together a load with unknown accuracy and make a accuracy determination. Ive shot loads with my glocks off the bench that went into 2 inch at 25 yards and ive shot other loads out of the same gun that were lucky to all land on a paper plate. Its not just glocks I can say that about. My rule of thumb is if I have a gun that shoots into X inchs at 25 yards I should be able to shoot off hand a group about twice that size. That said most glocks with some load development will shoot close to 2 inch and its a rare one that again with some load development that wont shoot under 3 inch. But trying one bullet or one powder proably isn't going to get you there unless your luckier then me. Now with some trigger work (that especially glocks need) I might be able to knock it down another inch or so. You don't need a fancy aftermarket barrel on a glock to shoot cast. Ive had two of them and they didn't shoot an iota better then the factory barrels did with there best loads. Most are chambered tighter and tend to reduce what glocks do best and that is to run like the energizer bunny.

[6622729]

Like was suggested. Before you can make any determination you need to sit at the bench and work up an accurate load. NOBODY can just grab a handgun throw together a load with unknown accuracy and make a accuracy determination. Ive shot loads with my glocks off the bench that went into 2 inch at 25 yards and ive shot other loads out of the same gun that were lucky to all land on a paper plate. Its not just glocks I can say that about. My rule of thumb is if I have a gun that shoots into X inchs at 25 yards I should be able to shoot off hand a group about twice that size. That said most glocks with some load development will shoot close to 2 inch and its a rare one that again with some load development that wont shoot under 3 inch. But trying one bullet or one powder proably isn't going to get you there unless your luckier then me. Now with some trigger work (that especially glocks need) I might be able to knock it down another inch or so. You don't need a fancy aftermarket barrel on a glock to shoot cast. Ive had two of them and they didn't shoot an iota better then the factory barrels did with there best loads. Most are chambered tighter and tend to reduce what glocks do best and that is to run like the energizer bunny.

The point of the question was to gauge what people have observed as the accuracy potential of the average Glock 19 at 25yds. No sense chasing loads or being too hard on myself trying to get tighter groups if I'm trying to get to a group size that is generally considered unobtainable. My question I think has been answered, I can get a heck of a lot smaller than 9" out of the average Glock 19 at 25yds. Now I know trying to get smaller will not be a waste of time.

I found the NRA targets in a .pdf online and test printed a 25yd B-8. That'll be my next target once I am 100% on the paper plate. Anything inside the 8 ring on the 25yd B-8 will be my goal after that. In the meantime, that'll be a lot of Lee 124gr round nose down range!

Casting the scrap lead alloy, cooking up the Recluse tumble lube, working my way up through reloading equipment (currently using Lee Classic Cast 4 hole turret and auto drum powder measure) and making it all come together. This is a very fun hobby!

[B. Lumpkin]

I have, and regularly do, but it goes against conventional cast bullet wisdom. Light weight, high velocity, and powder coated bullets give great accuracy in both of my Glock 19s, with either OEM or aftermarket barrels. I'm using the Lee 95-RF (TL grooves bored out to straight wall), dropping at 102gr, at 1500 fps, and also a 105gr hollow point from a modified Lee 120-TC at 1450 fps. Both shoot as well as any jacketed loads in those guns.

Do they hold the X-ring at 25 and 50 yards?

[B. Lumpkin]

I found the NRA targets in a .pdf online and test printed a 25yd B-8. That'll be my next target once I am 100% on the paper plate. Anything inside the 8 ring on the 25yd B-8 will be my goal after that. In the meantime, that'll be a lot of Lee 124gr round nose down range!

Good stuff! I would recommend you switch to a target with scoring rings sooner, rather than later. Compete against yourself and have fun!!

[Shiloh]

The potential accuracy is however you can acquire your best groups. The steadier you can hold it the better the groups.
Weight training will help a lot.

Shiloh