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abunaitoo
08-30-2016, 01:49 AM
We had a rifle blow up yesterday at the range.
Looked like a Ruger All American. 308.
Guy just got it. Was shooting handloads.
Fired about 10 rounds through it when it blew.
He didn't know he blew it.
Fortunately the guy next to him noticed the barrel and stopped him.
He had chambered another round and was about to fire.
From the looks of it, he had a squib load, bullet got stuck in the barrel, and boom.
No one got hurt.
Bolt worked fine.
Don't have pictures because can't afford a phone with a camera.

Ballistics in Scotland
08-30-2016, 04:56 AM
A description would be useful, but if it was simply an amputated barrel, that would be pretty sure to be a fairly substantial bore obstruction. If it was a bullet, it would be pretty sure to be a very small or omitted powder charge. The case which produced the blowup might show excessive pressure signs or might not. But the case from which the lodged bullet came would show the signs of extremely low pressure.

It is quite possible that the action will be unimpaired and reusable, but it needs careful checking out by a gunsmith, and not just any good gunsmith, but one who understands this situation.

mcdaniel.mac
08-30-2016, 05:01 AM
Good to hear the shooter is fine. I'd be interested to hear more about the cause and the damage. Sounds like Ruger's rifle kept the shooter safe. Good for them!

6bg6ga
08-30-2016, 06:36 AM
This is why one must be careful when reloading. Bullets tend to get stuck in the barrel when there isn't power in the case or the charge is low. Makes for a bad shooting day.

OS OK
08-30-2016, 06:50 AM
I'm starting to get the idea that when someone hears you are a handloader they are wary of you. Maybe they pick their kit up and move down the bench a couple or three spaces...in case you suddenly detonate yourself.
When I got into this back in the day, when my hair was not grey...there was a level of respect for a man who was able to assemble his own cartridges, someone who worked with molten lead...how mysterious. If you were one of the chosen few allowed into that mysterious place where he does his magic, you marveled at the gizmos he had, the tools, his stock and the myriad styles of boolits and brass cases, all the obsolete cartridges standing in the window sill or on a plaque.
He was usually one of the best shots around, or was the hunter who always brought the remarkable buck home across the front car fender, the go to guy so to speak in the gun world. He was the guy whose opinion about a deer rifle got repeated...what he said was usually the 'bottom line' so to speak.

What has happened?

I keep hearing of the fellas around here who never have enough time to do this or that, or they want something because it saves so much time even though it may not do the best job for them...I kinda look at it in wonderment and can't put a finger on the culprit. Do we not stress enough the seriousness of this passion, not put enough emphasis on attention to detail...has the marketing and retail end pushed past the margin where any odd duck coming down the road can just buy one of the reloading 'complete packages' and go home to their garage and just 'assemble' until their hearts are delighted...I dunnoh, just can't put a finger on it...perhaps we have become so many that we just hear of this happening more just because of numbers....? I dunnoh.

6bg6ga
08-30-2016, 07:00 AM
Well said OS OK. Handloaders used to be respected and admired because they took pride in reloading and the attention to detail. They took the time to work up a load for extreme accuracy. As a kid I remember watching my father as he was reloading and tricked a charge into the pan on his scale and carefully put the little funnel onto the neck of his 30-06 and dumped the charge into each one. He might load up say 10 of a particular charge and then make an adjustment and reload another 10 that might have been a tenth or two heavier charge. I remember his 1/2" groups with only a 4 power scope at 100 yards at the range. He would load say 4 or 5 different loads and keep the results written down to obtain that perfect load.

victorfox
08-30-2016, 07:03 AM
Well the advent of internet, youtube, etc had its ill effects...

I see videos of guys doing stuff that makes me frown or shiver.. Many look like suicidal fools.

6bg6ga
08-30-2016, 07:08 AM
Many may be

Ole Joe Clarke
08-30-2016, 08:00 AM
I noticed the same thing. A kid has just bought a "kit" three weeks ago, became an expert, and so he posts a U tube video on the net showing how to do it. Some of those videos are absolutely scary.

Have a blessed day,

Leon

10x
08-30-2016, 08:19 AM
I noticed the same thing. A kid has just bought a "kit" three weeks ago, became an expert, and so he posts a U tube video on the net showing how to do it. Some of those videos are absolutely scary.

Have a blessed day,

Leon

The feeling you get when the guy at the range next to you who is shooting his first reloaded his first rounds tells you that he is using 2 grains above max load....

OS OK
08-30-2016, 08:23 AM
Leon, the sad part is that I'll leave a short comment trying to help them on the YouTube vids and they usually come back at you with vengeance...I know that this is a shortcoming on my part but..."I just don't give a damn anymore...let fools find their own salvation."

opos
08-30-2016, 09:07 AM
I'm an old man that has loaded since the early 60's....so far have not had any "events" of note...did have one "accidental discharge" back in the 50's but that was operator error and nothing else and no damage...but did get my attention.

I'm a low volume loader so I use a single stage press for my rifle loads and a Lee Classic Turret press for the 4 handgun calibers I load..I'm a strictly by the book man on load development and seldom if ever get much load data off the internet...once in a while someone I know and trust will post and I may have a conversation with them and then check their data with my resources.

The thing that I've noticed on several other boards is the flurry of new loaders that have gotten AR's or some other form of "tactical" rifles and have become 1000 round a weekend shooters over night. Then comes the question about what equipment to get to start reloading...and I watch the other new folks pushing them toward the high end progressive presses with all the automated features..then the old timers ring in with "start with a single stage" and go from there. I can't imagine trying to understand the basics of loading and all that goes with it as well as powders and primers, etc while trying to figure out how to use a high end progressive.

It sort of reminds me of my flying days (I no longer fly). I began flying in the 50's in the simplest of single engine airplanes...and old J3 Cub...I got a solid foundation in the basics of flying and then slowly began to move up in performance and complexity...I finally ended up with a high speed, complex aircraft that had accounted for many private pilot deaths and injuries due to the "pilot" being way behind that kind of plane....I never had a scrape and flew it all over the Southwest in business....high altitudes as well....but no way would I have attempted to hop in that Bonanza and go flying with low hours or as a "learning" experience.

Wish folks would just slow down a bit..hate to see the outcome and it's not good for the hobby...I am not perfect..I may have a kaboom today at the range....but with thousands of rounds having been loaded carefully over a lot of years I might stand a better chance of all ok than if this was my 3rd box of 44 mag and I just used my brand new "Superdog 4000 Speedy Loader" with a new load I saw on the internet.

OS OK
08-30-2016, 09:23 AM
Yep, those fellas that go out on weekends and spray lead...I suppose they have fun and that's ok but I just can't justify the cost.
I had opportunity to get behind a .50 in the Corps and bounce a 55 gallon drum at 600 yards like a tin can...that was soooo fine an experience. Today, after that, nothing even comes close so I leave the spraying to those who never experienced the real deal.

DerekP Houston
08-30-2016, 09:34 AM
I kinda prefer to get the corner stall away from everyone else at the range....I've seen squibs from factory rounds and over pressured handloads. Judging by the number of holes in the ceiling and walls I'm surprised half the people can hit the standard sized target. Makes collecting my brass easier anyways.

edler7
08-30-2016, 09:42 AM
I see a lot of "immediate gratification isn't quick enough" in people today. Nobody wants to earn their stripes, just have them handed to them. The pride of learning the ropes isn't around much anymore.

OS OK
08-30-2016, 09:47 AM
"Ropes...What ropes?.. We don't need no stinking ropes! We gots de iPhone dude!"

Kraschenbirn
08-30-2016, 09:52 AM
Yup...some days I have a real problem understanding how some shooters at our club got past our membership committee and made it through the mandatory range safety orientation.

Bill

Ballistics in Scotland
08-30-2016, 10:07 AM
It sort of reminds me of my flying days (I no longer fly). I began flying in the 50's in the simplest of single engine airplanes...and old J3 Cub...I got a solid foundation in the basics of flying and then slowly began to move up in performance and complexity...I finally ended up with a high speed, complex aircraft that had accounted for many private pilot deaths and injuries due to the "pilot" being way behind that kind of plane....I never had a scrape and flew it all over the Southwest in business....high altitudes as well....but no way would I have attempted to hop in that Bonanza and go flying with low hours or as a "learning" experience.


Ah yes, the fork-tail doctor killer. I'm not sure whether its accident rate came from that unique design feature or from performance and complexity. In 1970 I hade some very interesting conversations with the leader of a group of Soviet students in Paris, and he told me he taught himself to fly in the early 50s, from the instruction book which came with a Polikarpov biplane. It was on a vast facility which was landable grassland to the horizon and in an era when a little death and loss of obsolete hardware was no big thing in Russia. He said it couldn't be stalled, and as long as you kept near the ground, you could just slow down till it become its own parachute. If the grass was long enough to show the direction of a strong wind, you could do a vertical landing. Then he would say "I don't suppose you have that much freedom in your country?"

jmorris
08-30-2016, 10:17 AM
I saved the photos from the most blown up rifle I have ever seen, the fellow knew it though. It was a result of the poor guy grabbing a can of titegroup instead of Varget.

http://i664.photobucket.com/albums/vv5/qvideo/650/IMG_4183_zpsd4hbzkyb.jpg

http://i664.photobucket.com/albums/vv5/qvideo/650/IMG_4184_zps1ymmuoza.jpg


Despite the totaled rifle he was actually really lucky, he only suffered hand damage.

lefty o
08-30-2016, 10:18 AM
I kinda prefer to get the corner stall away from everyone else at the range....I've seen squibs from factory rounds and over pressured handloads. Judging by the number of holes in the ceiling and walls I'm surprised half the people can hit the standard sized target. Makes collecting my brass easier anyways.
holes in the ceiling usually come from the muzzle loader guys.

OS OK
08-30-2016, 10:27 AM
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/webkit-fake-url://9B06B575-9EBF-42D7-B885-9C99692BC15F/IMG_4184_zps1ymmuoza.jpg

morris...I can't even find words to express myself on this one...surely someone will find just the right quip that describes this event adequately! OMG!

bob208
08-30-2016, 10:41 AM
well some of the problem with handloaders is they think every thing they load has to be magnum plus. I have even seen it here. how hot can I load ? I need the hottest load I can get.

Fergie
08-30-2016, 10:42 AM
I've had one squib, and it was not a round I loaded. I grew up reloading with my Dad. I'd sit there and clean primer pockets while he would tell me the different operations. In all the years, he never had a bad round that I can remember. However, as his cancer became more advanced, and his pain more severe, he had to rely on opioid pain relievers that did a number on his memory and and concentration.

After he passed, I went out shooting one day, and after a particularly soft report from the 1911, I noticed it wouldnt chamber the next round. I looked at the sticker on the box and they had been loaded shortly before he passed. Didn't want to take a chance so I set that box aside, and pulled every round when I got home.

Age, on either end the spectrum, can be a detriment to the task at hand.

Ballistics in Scotland
08-30-2016, 10:56 AM
I saved the photos from the most blown up rifle I have ever seen, the fellow knew it though. It was a result of the poor guy grabbing a can of titegroup instead of Varget.

Despite the totaled rifle he was actually really lucky, he only suffered hand damage.

That is surprisingly often the case. The best authority Iknow on shotgun failure, although his final editions date from the early 1960s,remains Sir Gerald Burrard. In his personal, legal and forensic work heinvestigated over five hundred shotgun failures, of which none was fatal andonly four produced injury of any kind. He saw some very lucky escapes, which aperson would be unwise to count upon, and extremely expensive damage wascommonplace.

I maintain, though, that with load information like that displayed on powder cans and all manner of loading equipment, the person who just wants to get a common firearm working well runs very little danger. As in business, it is striving to extract the top dollar, or top ft./sec., that is dangerous.

One of the most disturbing developments in modern IT, is the convention that it is all right to lie on the internet. Well, just look at The Pit. I'm convinced that a lot of people describe things on Youtube which they have never actually tested, either just to impress or to see if others get away with it. It is a shame, since it has the potential to be such a valuable source of information. At the moment I am researching the ammunition used in the earliest Schmidt-Rubin rifle, the 1889, and this wipes away endless errors which cartridge reference books parrot from one to another. But for every one like this, there are several Heath Robinson (which translates as Rube Goldberg) experimental displays.

popper
08-30-2016, 11:02 AM
holes in the ceiling usually come from the muzzle loader guys. Most are on the pistol range!

Ola
08-30-2016, 11:19 AM
Back to the subject: the blown-up rifle.

So, the Ruger got broken but the shooter is OK.. that is good.

But WHY did it blow up?

-the ammo?
-the rifle?
-something else?

If the bolt was working OK, that sounds like there was something wrong with the barrel from the beginning..

dverna
08-30-2016, 11:32 AM
I am old too. I started reloading because I was poor. It took me a long time to save up for the equipment and molds I needed. During that time I read.... and I read a lot.

I think it is too easy for people to start reloading nowadays. And they do not study the art as much as they should. Heck, look at some of the stupid things posted on this site. And we are too kind to the idiots.

I am surprised there are not more accidents.

Plus common sense is NOT trainable. What kind of fool has a squib load and chambers another round? Like I said, we are too kind to idiots.

I hate going to a public range. I see guys who cannot hit the page of a notebook at 7 yards "teaching" their girlfriends to shoot. I see these same yahoos getting their CPL's after "passing" the range test.

opos
08-30-2016, 11:40 AM
Ah yes, the fork-tail doctor killer. I'm not sure whether its accident rate came from that unique design feature or from performance and complexity. In 1970 I hade some very interesting conversations with the leader of a group of Soviet students in Paris, and he told me he taught himself to fly in the early 50s, from the instruction book which came with a Polikarpov biplane. It was on a vast facility which was landable grassland to the horizon and in an era when a little death and loss of obsolete hardware was no big thing in Russia. He said it couldn't be stalled, and as long as you kept near the ground, you could just slow down till it become its own parachute. If the grass was long enough to show the direction of a strong wind, you could do a vertical landing. Then he would say "I don't suppose you have that much freedom in your country?"

It was called that because it was the "Ferrari" if the day and quite a status symbol...lots of big money boys decided they just had to have one..doctors, lawyers, etc..many with little or no real training...The Bonanza was designed and built to satisfy the wants and needs of returning fighter pilots that wanted something with real performance...The Bonanza was so clean that if you got the nose down as during rough weather or in instrument conditions and in an unusual attitued, the plane would build speed so quickly it would "red line" before you could catch it...lots of them "came apart"under severe conditions...An old time Bonanza pilot was adamant that if it "got a little scary" to drop the gear and add 20 degrees of flaps and the plane simply wouldn't get away from you and go red line...did that a couple of times when I got in nearly over my head...

WFO2
08-30-2016, 11:43 AM
I started reloading years ago with a Lee single stage . I was lucky enough to have a good friend teach me step by step and walk me through a whole bunch of rounds .I still have that press and the first round I reloaded .He is the only person I know who's reloads I will shoot .He says the same of me . Now years later with several presses and die I still do the same checks for quality and safety .

BK7saum
08-30-2016, 11:44 AM
If he substituted titegroup which is a fast pistol powder for Varget which is a medium rifle powder, it would definitely have been an ammo issue. Gross overload of wrong powder

runfiverun
08-30-2016, 01:46 PM
and titegroup at that.
it don't need no help to go to stratospheric pressures.

robg
08-30-2016, 02:02 PM
Hole in the ceiling in our club recently ,Chinese shotgun ,had basic clean ,but packing grease around firing pin gone hard .first shot OK next round pumped in slam fire, pin stuck foward

DerekP Houston
08-30-2016, 02:23 PM
holes in the ceiling usually come from the muzzle loader guys.

Indoor range..no muzzleloaders allowed. I had to stop one day and get the range safety officer after hearing the guy next to me hit the dang target rail 15 times. He kindly recommended stop trying for headshots and shoot center mass....people gotta learn I know but safety first yall.

I'm not sure where the fascination with maximum power loads came from. I mean if it makes it more accurate sure bump up the charge, but i try to use as little as possible. Too each their own I suppose. If I want more "power" I just go up in caliber. Why try to make a pocket 9mm shoot handcannon type loads?

country gent
08-30-2016, 02:53 PM
Lets see we know a barrel burst or blew up dont have alot of details as to what when why or how. By this How was the ammo loaded, whack a mole, single stage, turret, true progressive or bench rest dies and arhbor press? WHat was the bullet wieght, for that matter bullet dia, there are some calibers with several dias of bullets IE 308, .308, .309, and 311 in jacketed. .308 is standard Lapua made secanars in 308 and 309 dia and 303s 7.62X 39 use .311 all are available. Chamber specs a tight neck can increase pressures greatly when it cant release the bullet. A squib load leaving the bullet in the barrel. Cleaning between shots and a patch getting left in the barrel also can cause a blow up. The fact the bolt opened and functioned afterwards is diffrent from normal blow ups. WHile it undoubtably happened there really isnt enough information to come to a conclusion on what and why.

bouncer50
08-30-2016, 02:53 PM
About 30 years back we had a place that sold reload ammo. They had once fired brass primers powder and bullets. But they had a display of blown up pistol and rifle, shotguns. The owner told me it was not his reload that did that. He said that most of the time it was a case full of bulleyes that people put in by mistake. One guy he told me try to load for his 30-30 and fill the case with bullseye thinking that pistol powder is less powerfully then rifle powder and he blown up the rifle. Some people should not reload or drive cars

Char-Gar
08-30-2016, 03:14 PM
I have been loading since 1958 and probably has a million or more rounds loaded. I have never had any kind of reloading mishap that damaged a gun in any way. The blown up guns are not necessary a part of reloading, but always the result of somebody's carelessness.

In these days of people cranking out rounds on a progressive reloading without any real knowledge of what they are doing, these things are all to common. Throw in the folks buying "baggy brand" reloads at gun shows and there you have it.

country gent
08-30-2016, 03:26 PM
Char-Gar in the right hands and knowledge level a good progressive can be very safe and productive. Unfortunatly alot buying these machines are new comers that dont understand each individual step or what it "feels" like when performed alone. They want bragging right I have XXXXX progressive press on my bench. I loaded many years of high power ammo on a single stage press and batch method before buying my progressives. These new first time firearms buyers have no clue and the internet experts all recomend the big progressive machines as the way to go. If they dont know understand each step done alone how will they ever get the knowledge doing 4 or 5 things at one time?

DerekP Houston
08-30-2016, 03:37 PM
Char-Gar in the right hands and knowledge level a good progressive can be very safe and productive. Unfortunatly alot buying these machines are new comers that dont understand each individual step or what it "feels" like when performed alone. They want bragging right I have XXXXX progressive press on my bench. I loaded many years of high power ammo on a single stage press and batch method before buying my progressives. These new first time firearms buyers have no clue and the internet experts all recomend the big progressive machines as the way to go. If they dont know understand each step done alone how will they ever get the knowledge doing 4 or 5 things at one time?

I dunno, I think i actually load slower on my progressive than I did on the turret press. Too many things to double check and make sure they are feeding properly. The main factor for me was just pulling the handle less times per round and to stop the primers from falling all over the place. Only had one batch sneak past me with a powder bridge (no powder dropped) and those 40 were enough of a pain to break down that now I double check with a flashlight every so often.

Still need to degrease and get the LnL powder measure setup, but I'm of the opinion "if it ain't broke don't fix it"

tommag
08-30-2016, 03:40 PM
Even weighing each charge, one can make a mistake. I charged twenty or so cases with 335 once and used a light for final inspection. They looked a little too full. Took another look at the scale and saw that the big weight was one notch off. Good thing I caught it, not sure 30 grains in a 223 Would be been a good thing.

MT Chambers
08-30-2016, 03:44 PM
I blame progressive reloaders and people in a hurry, I just have to look into all the charged cases together, in the blocks before I proceed!!

mold maker
08-30-2016, 05:02 PM
I started loading on a borrowed single stage in the early 60s and bought my first Reloader
Special a year later. It is still a perminate fixture on my bench. Although it has newer neighbors including a super whiz-bang progressive, the old RS gets regular use.
How any new loader can deal with the intricacies learning to load, and master getting a complicated progressive to all come together is beyond me.
It is way too important to learn the basics and gain confidence instead of filling a bushel basket with unproven ammo just because the Mfg says you can.

JSnover
08-30-2016, 05:04 PM
I saved the photos from the most blown up rifle I have ever seen, the fellow knew it though. It was a result of the poor guy grabbing a can of titegroup instead of Varget.

http://i664.photobucket.com/albums/vv5/qvideo/650/IMG_4183_zpsd4hbzkyb.jpg

http://i664.photobucket.com/albums/vv5/qvideo/650/IMG_4184_zps1ymmuoza.jpg


Despite the totaled rifle he was actually really lucky, he only suffered hand damage.
Well, like it says on the label, "A little goes a long way."
There's your proof.

abunaitoo
08-30-2016, 05:38 PM
Don't have any other details on the blow up.
About 3" from the end of the barrel was split open in three places.
Not the open flower, but bulge with splits.
I'm not sure if he was a new shooter or not.
He did say the rifle was new.
His comment was "That didn't last long. I just got it"
He said he was shooting handloads.
Don't know if he loaded them or someone else.
There was another guy with him.
He packed up and left soon after.

country gent
08-30-2016, 05:44 PM
Thats what I was trying to say or imply Derek, A seasoned handloader checks and double checks everything. Alot of these newer people figure if the machine is rated for 650 an hour there going to shoot for 700 an hour. I to run a progressive press at times and it does a great job for me. But then I dont try for record breaking rounds per hour. When loading BPCR rounds my Hand wad seaters have scales on the side and I can see the powder hieght seating wads before compressing the charge. Pulling compressed chrges, digging the powder out with a screwdriver or modified drill bit is a real joy. I check and recheck.

Blackwater
08-30-2016, 08:56 PM
That is surprisingly often the case. The best authority Iknow on shotgun failure, although his final editions date from the early 1960s,remains Sir Gerald Burrard. In his personal, legal and forensic work heinvestigated over five hundred shotgun failures, of which none was fatal andonly four produced injury of any kind. He saw some very lucky escapes, which aperson would be unwise to count upon, and extremely expensive damage wascommonplace.

I maintain, though, that with load information like that displayed on powder cans and all manner of loading equipment, the person who just wants to get a common firearm working well runs very little danger. As in business, it is striving to extract the top dollar, or top ft./sec., that is dangerous.

One of the most disturbing developments in modern IT, is the convention that it is all right to lie on the internet. Well, just look at The Pit. I'm convinced that a lot of people describe things on Youtube which they have never actually tested, either just to impress or to see if others get away with it. It is a shame, since it has the potential to be such a valuable source of information. At the moment I am researching the ammunition used in the earliest Schmidt-Rubin rifle, the 1889, and this wipes away endless errors which cartridge reference books parrot from one to another. But for every one like this, there are several Heath Robinson (which translates as Rube Goldberg) experimental displays.

Great point, BinS. It's amazing that we live in "The Information Age," and such a large % of it is either erroneous, outright lies, or willfully misleading. For a long time, I've shied away from any and all data except that provided by the powder and reloading companies who have a lot to lose if they should give out bad info. Anonymity on the 'net leaves the door wide open to fools, idiots and miscreants of all flavors.

I blew up a Super Blackhawk once, but it was totally MY fault. Told the story before, reloading late at night (quit after 3:00 a.m.) and grabbed the wrong can to pour my powder from the measure back into the can. Set myself up for next session's "boom!" And from what I've seen, it really doesn't matter so much whether you're a newbie or have loaded a million rounds. It's more about presence of mind, often, than anything else.

And all the guys who post wanting to just be told the quick and easy way to load and go shooting without learning the whys and wherefores don't get a lot of info from me any more. Aiding and abetting someone's foolishness and laziness would make me accountable for any "accidents" they might have, at least in THEIR minds and potentially their lawyers'. Let someone show some interest in learning and in understanding, though, and I'll be with them all the way. It's a real pleasure helping others get started and understand reloading. And they do come along. Just not real regularly. The ones who only want to save money and git-r-done quick and cheap, just flat scare me!

MaryB
08-30-2016, 11:52 PM
I run my turret press as a single stage and use the turret as a handy way to keep the dies setup right between sessions. I charge 10 cases, weight the charge in each to make sure the powder measure is set right then I make a dowel and slip it into the case and mark the powder level. After I charge 50 cases I dowel and flashlight check each then go to the next step. Why do I make things harder? I fight pain and I take pain meds so I have to concentrate and double check each step. And EVERY completed round gets checked for length and I randomly tap one nose down to make sure the crimp is good. It is better to be safe than sorry!

And I see no need to go to massive powder charges, 90% of the time it makes accuracy worse and beats the heck out of the gun and me. Mid range for most loads has worked just fine with my .223 reloads being accurate enough to put 5 in the space of a quarter at 100 yards(using a bench rest, I am not that good!)

Lonegun1894
08-31-2016, 12:03 AM
holes in the ceiling usually come from the muzzle loader guys.

Do you have anything to back this up? My local ranges have very few muzzleloader shooters, but sure seem to have a lot of holes in the ceiling, most .22 to .35, and a LOT of 9mm brass laying all over.

tdoyka
08-31-2016, 01:39 AM
i don't have a progressive on my bench. i do have a lyman turret press tho. and i've been really thinking of going back to a lee classic cast press. i don't know a thing about progressives, except they're left leaning and vote democrap[smilie=l:.

my turret, back in de day, did everything from decapping to putting a crimp on the bullet, all on the turret. i think that i would be better off using a single stage. i do, however, use the hornady auto charge powder dispenser. i still check it on the beam scale and the hornady is right on.

i have not blown any guns up, although i have cracked the rifle/pistol cases because i knew what i was doing(yes, i can be that dumb and stupid, at the same time!). when i was first starting out reloading, i was for sure that they(meaning hornady, speer, seirra...) only put the max charge of x powder, using y bullet, in the book because they didn't know. so i(young and dumber) did what any red blooded 'merican would do, i disregarded it and set out on my own:confused::-(. i used my '06 with a 150gr bullet and x powder to try and find THE MAX. i started out with x powder's max and i proceded to go a grain ahead until i reached THE MAX. i found it, it cracked the case on a brand new cartridge. so i loaded it down a 1/2 grain and i used it deer hunting.

i look back at what i have done, it puts a shiver down my spine. i took a '06 and a 150gr bullet to near 300 mag velocities. i don't want to even figure out the amount of psi was involved:veryconfu:groner:. its a wonder i never blew the gun up while i did that. my first couple of years i had to get the maximum velocity out of the '06, then my mentor showed up and taught me the error of my ways. i think only one of my loads reaches the maximum, all of the others are alot less than the max. cast boolits are the absolute "worst" of finding THE MAX;-). i mean i tried to make the 165gr ranch dog with 25.5gr of rel7(around 1800fps) going out of my 30-40 krag with open sights to get around 2" at 100 yards:wink:. but i don't have the power to make it go faster[smilie=1:. (sarcasm at its finest)

kmw1954
08-31-2016, 01:42 AM
Just finished reading all of this and as of yet we have not heard back from abunaitoo with any further detail, though I've read a lot of speculation. Then the topic seems to have quickly turned from the mishap to reloading practices and equipment. abunaitoo stated that the shooter was using reloads which means nothing or everything. We do not know what experience the shooter had with reloading. We do not know what equipment he was using and we don't even know if he was the one that actually produced those reloads. Those are questions I'd want answered before I made any judgment. At this point we don't even know if the ammunition was the cause.

I take home rolling your own very seriously, there are inherent dangers involved but none that cannot be controlled, most all mistakes or mishaps are user error or carelessness, that being either in reloading or baking chicken..

mcdaniel.mac
08-31-2016, 01:47 AM
I sold a Savage model 10 to a guy, stayed in touch because he was interested in a shotgun I had as well. He emailed me asking why he couldn't chamber surplus ammo, so I asked for pictures. I'd used South African ammo in it with no issues personally. The pictures he sent back looked a little bit off, but it wasn't until I looked at the head stamp that I realized he had a bunch of .307 Winchester ammo. According to him, his uncle gave it to him and said it would shoot just fine in that rifle.

When I was running my FFL I had a repeat customer who should have been sentenced to sit on his hands in the corner and think long and hard about his life choices. He came back complaining that the AR15 upper I sold him wouldn't run, turns out he had a carbine buffer with a rifle length spring in a rifle buffer tube. Well, I grab a mag of shop candy, I think it was a mix of AE XM193 and Wolf Gold as that's what I usually ordered, slapped the upper on a lower I'd just finished slapping together, and ran the mag with no problems. He pulls out his lower and the problem was pretty obvious. Then he pulled out a mag and after swapping the buffer asked if he could test-fire it. Anybody who's ever started a late-model Kubota in cold weather will know what it sounded like! No two shots had the same powder charge as far as I could tell, based on the noise, flash, and recoil. All handloads. According to him, he liked to drink and watch TV while loading.

I have friends that are big into motorsports, I used to ride a motorcycle, and between that and shooting it just seems like there's something about burning fuel, whether it's guns or engines that attracts reckless people. Bigger explosions, more noise, more money!!!! Nothing we can do except stay out of the danger area.

Brandi
08-31-2016, 03:38 AM
When I was in college we were lucky enough at that time to have a rifle range on campus (it had been a military academy way back when) and I started taking classes. At the time I already had quite a bit of shooting experience and was fresh out of the military so I was pretty disciplined in my shooting but you never know everything. Our instructor was a retired military man and a very good teacher.

On our first day of pre-range safety classroom training our instructor wrote "SQUIB" in giant letters on the chalkboard. He then asked if anyone knew what it was. I had heard the term and was pretty sure I knew the answer but wasn't confident enough to risk saying something stupid. Most of the students were new to shooting and didn't know anything so no hands hit the air. The instructor then told us it was one of the most important things we needed to understand before ever picking up a loaded gun. He not only discussed it but really pounded it in to our heads. He let us have both barrels so to speak and made sure every single person not only understood but would remember it for life.

Like I said I knew what a squib was but it was never something that was ever taught to me with the seriousness that he did. I never understood just how dangerous it was and how important it was to watch (and listen) for until that class. When I later taught my sister to shoot I taught her about squib loads before ever shooting a live gun. My old instructor would say that just paying attention to what's going on down range isn't enough. You had to listen to every shot you made. You always paid attention to that sound. You had to do it automatically without even thinking. You had to know when it sounded different, even just a little bit. One mistake could destroy your gun, injure yourself and/or others or worst case scenario, kill someone.

That was many years ago but to this day I'm always listening to my shots without thinking about it and if I'm watching someone else shoot, I'm listening to their shots too. I've stopped shooting more than a few times because something sounded off but fortunately I've not experienced a squib myself or been around when someone else did. Now that my sister and I have started reloading it's something I've been thinking about a whole lot more. Squibs and hangfires are pretty rare but since she and I are both new at reloading I'm on hyper alert when we are shooting our handmade stuff. Thanks OP, this thread has me thinking, I think I'm going to do a refresher with the sis on this subject just so it's as fresh on her mind as it is on mine.

abunaitoo
08-31-2016, 03:57 AM
No other details.
I don't expect any more.
Don't know the guy.
No one I know knows him.
All I got is what I heard and what others told me.
I did see the rifle.
Didn't see the ammo, but I did see a plastic ammo box on the table.
Probably never know what the cause was.

OS OK
08-31-2016, 09:20 AM
"I love these little morning chats with you fellas, kinda like sitting around the morning camp fire with a cup ah joe listening to the crackle of the fire and the wisdom of the old timers...only today it seems that there's a lot more than wisdom in the air...if everyone practiced what they preached we wouldn't see near so many of these detonated arms.
On the other side of the coin...and, with 'common sense' being such a rarity these days, I'm surprised that we see only these few examples of good intentions gone wrong.

Anyone want some more joe?

charlie

Ole Joe Clarke
08-31-2016, 09:26 AM
I'm surprised that a lot of shooters don't know what caliber pistol or rifle they are shooting. One young guy told me he had a ".38" pistol, turned out to be a .380 Colt. Another brought me a partial box of .38 S&W that he said wouldn't fit in his wife's pistol. I asked him what caliber her revolver was and he didn't know, he though it was a .38. Sure nough, it is a .38 Special, and .38 S&W's are about .005 larger in diameter, no wonder they wouldn't go in the .38 Special. He did manage to shoot about half the box in the special but they were hard to get out, didn't know why the others wouldn't go in the gun.
Just yesterday, a young guy brought me a .410 shotgun, a tiny little Rossi that he had traded for, with a empty shell stuck in the chamber. I took a cleaning rod and bumped it and it came right out. He had just traded for it, and the guy that he got it from said it would fire .410's, .45 cal long colt and .45 auto. I guess it doesn't matter that 45 caliber is .040 larger in diameter than the .410 shot shell.

Kinda scary "ain't" it?

Have a blessed day,

Leon

Ballistics in Scotland
08-31-2016, 09:38 AM
Don't have any other details on the blow up.
About 3" from the end of the barrel was split open in three places.
Not the open flower, but bulge with splits.
I'm not sure if he was a new shooter or not.
He did say the rifle was new.
His comment was "That didn't last long. I just got it"
He said he was shooting handloads.
Don't know if he loaded them or someone else.
There was another guy with him.
He packed up and left soon after.

You did get back to us with enough information to know the problem was almost certainly a bore obstruction. Rifle barrels are far thicker at that point than they need to be to resist pressure, so I don't believe any kind of overload would do it there, rather than near the chamber. I

It is a long way into a modern-sized barrel for some object from outside to penetrate, and yet I don't know if a primer explosion without powder, which is almost inconceivably brief, could have send the previous bullet that far. Well, maybe... But I think there was most likely an extremely small powder charge. People do talk about coarse-grained powder "bridging" in the measure and failing to come out, but the makers of these things aren't stupid about product liability, and I would be surprised to find it happening to this extent. More likely someone just reached the end of a hopper of powder without noticing.

Probably the user of the gun loaded his own, but it outlines the folly of shooting handloads from some stranger you don't trust, quite literally, as yourself. If you make a saving by buying some, it could turn out mighty expensive money.

ghh3rd
08-31-2016, 09:50 AM
I have a Lee Turret Press on my bench, and use on of my four stations for an RCBS powder checker. I just feel better being able to visualize each load before I top it off with a boolit. Overkill... maybe. Peace of mind... yes.

lefty o
08-31-2016, 10:21 AM
Do you have anything to back this up? My local ranges have very few muzzleloader shooters, but sure seem to have a lot of holes in the ceiling, most .22 to .35, and a LOT of 9mm brass laying all over.
yep, ive watched them do it.

ghh3rd
08-31-2016, 11:06 AM
Why would muzzle loaders be susceptible to discharging into the ceiling? No primer, no boom while seating the charge and projectile (would sure hope not anyway!). Once the primer is inserted it is handled the same as any other rifle, right?

DCP
08-31-2016, 12:10 PM
In case you missed this. I-think-I-dodged-a-bullet


http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?313140-I-think-I-dodged-a-bullet

Traffer
08-31-2016, 12:14 PM
I was at the range the other day testing some of my hand reload 22lr's. I filled a mag of them for my mosberg 702 plinkster to see if they would cycle ok. A guy walked by me as he was leaving. He was looking at me with big eyes. I told him that I was shooting powder coated 22lr reloads. He said, "I noticed sparks flying out of your gun, what was that?" He was amazed. Like I had some kind of lightning gun or something. After explaining that I added aluminum powder to the primer to make the primer hotter and with more fire, we had a nice discussion about my work. (It was kind of neat to see the sparks flying out of that little semi-auto. It does the same thing with factory ammo but you just can't see the sparks but gas and debris does fly out of it a lot.) If you are tempted to start rebuking me for this, please hold off.

lefty o
08-31-2016, 12:19 PM
Why would muzzle loaders be susceptible to discharging into the ceiling? No primer, no boom while seating the charge and projectile (would sure hope not anyway!). Once the primer is inserted it is handled the same as any other rifle, right?
youd think, but no.