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View Full Version : Need help in ID this ammo - very strange Primer



orisolo
08-28-2016, 01:45 AM
Hi Guys,
I got 31 of this round and have no idea what it is.
It is either a rim fire or the primer is under the copper?
It measure 0.485
Can you help in ID this ammo
Thank you
Ori

175334175335175336

OS OK
08-28-2016, 02:19 AM
A .46 Hammond Carbine is as close as I can get with the limited dimensions you give.
It's listed as a rimfire but the base of that one I've never seen.
What is:
OAL
Rim dia.
Base dia.
Case length
Case mouth dia.
rim thickness

I have a 'Cartridges of the world' book but this one is a riddle?

orisolo
08-28-2016, 02:40 AM
I will get more dimensions tomorrow.
I have seen lots of brass cases in my business but never seen anything like this one especially the base.
I'm not even sure if this is a rim fire or it has a "primer" under the copper?
Very Strange.

OS OK
08-28-2016, 02:50 AM
It looks like a limited experimental production of a round that used to be rimfire and this is an attempt at holding a primer in without press fitting them as we do now. I dunnoh?
Whatever it is it is a good riddle. Should be interesting to know the identity and history of it.

380AUTO
08-28-2016, 03:40 AM
44 Henry?

w5pv
08-28-2016, 06:04 AM
Strange looking dude



Vote Trump

Wayne Smith
08-28-2016, 08:01 AM
In the mix of the transition from rimfire to centerfire there were a number of different central primer inside the case designs that would look like that. Several of them got to production. If it is a center fire cartridge it is a rare bird.

jsizemore
08-28-2016, 08:06 AM
Does that spell S.A.W. in that last photo? Maybe Smith And Wesson?

Could be that the indented middle was an attempt at allowing the action to close or revolve without binding. Added benefit would be more priming compound at the rim and primer flame front directed at the powder charge. I'm just guessing.

Thumbcocker
08-28-2016, 08:22 AM
I have seen .45/70's that were center fire but had the primer inside the case Bennet IIRC. Could that be a Schofield .45 inside primed?

mac60
08-28-2016, 09:33 AM
Ori - S.A.W. is Sage Ammunition Works. The cartridge certainly looks to me like a .56-50 Spencer rimfire cartridge - the measurement you gave doesn't fit though. Need more info to go on. The cartridges are collectible though.

NyFirefighter357
08-28-2016, 09:41 AM
Looks like 50-45 Peabody http://www.gunauction.com/buy/5423136

mac60
08-28-2016, 09:46 AM
Looks like 50-45 Peabody http://www.gunauction.com/buy/5423136

Good work. I believe you nailed it.

maxreloader
08-28-2016, 10:07 AM
Ori - S.A.W. is Sage Ammunition Works. The cartridge certainly looks to me like a .56-50 Spencer rimfire cartridge - the measurement you gave doesn't fit though. Need more info to go on. The cartridges are collectible though.

It's centrally primed and they are very collectible... the ones I had sold for $40+/- each. It all depends on the caliber, rarity, and condition

mac60
08-28-2016, 10:52 AM
It's centrally primed and they are very collectible... the ones I had sold for $40+/- each. It all depends on the caliber, rarity, and condition

Cartridges of the World gives the info that all the Spencer cartridges (.56-56, .56-52, .56-50 & .56-46) are rimfires. The measurement Ori gave does not come anywhere close to fitting any of the Spencer cartridges. NyFirefighter357 thinks it may be a .50-45 Peabody - I think he is probably right.

KCSO
08-28-2016, 12:50 PM
That is a centerfire with an inside primer like the early 50-70 and such. Peabody would be my guess too.

mac60
08-28-2016, 01:10 PM
The link provided for the .50-45 Peabody rimfire cartridge for sale has a complete description including all the dimensional measurements. If Ori would take a look at it, maybe we could get to the bottom of this.

orisolo
08-28-2016, 01:15 PM
Wow, it sure looks like .50-45 Peabody.
Ill get later today to the shop and pull the caliper to see the exact size.
The measurement I gave earlier was made by one of my guys and now I think it's wrong.
The picture in the auction page definitely looks the same, even the marks on the side of the case looks the same.
I'll report once i get more info.
if they are $30-$40 a piece is is a nice jackpot as i have 31 of those.
Thank you everyone.

TXGunNut
08-28-2016, 01:29 PM
Glad I showed up late for this party! First thought was 44RF but was just a SWAG.

maxreloader
08-28-2016, 01:50 PM
the crimp marks on the side of the case are an indication of this being centrally primed as stated earlier. i had a sealed box of 50's from Frankford Arsenal that were made for the 1873 navy that were centrally primed. i have seen single rounds go for $75 and over. the SAW headstamp would be the clue to follow along with overall dimensions.

salpal48
08-28-2016, 01:57 PM
That has all the Earmarks 56/50 spencer Internal primed Centerfire . from Sage. . Collectables Yes. Pricey No. $3.00 to $5.00 @ cartridges shows. . Alway available @shows

mac60
08-28-2016, 06:03 PM
the crimp marks on the side of the case are an indication of this being centrally primed as stated earlier. i had a sealed box of 50's from Frankford Arsenal that were made for the 1873 navy that were centrally primed. i have seen single rounds go for $75 and over. the SAW headstamp would be the clue to follow along with overall dimensions.

Look at the link for the .50-45 Peabody. It has the same type of crimp marks. If it is indeed a .50-45 Peabody it's a rimfire. If it's one of the Spencer cartridges it's a rimfire.

orisolo
08-29-2016, 06:42 PM
Hi guys,
Sorry I didn't made it to the shop yesterday.
Here are the measurements as i get them from my caliper.

bullet length 1.61" (projectile and case)
case length 1.14" or 29 mm
base is 0.643" or 16.35 mm
case width at base 0.554" or 14.07 mm(not included the rim)
case width at mouth 0.532" or 13.53
Rim thickness 0.053 or 1.6mm


Thank you

Ithaca Gunner
08-29-2016, 07:26 PM
Inside primed center fire cartridges weren't uncommon at all. Bannerman's sold the stuff by the case back in the day.

Wayne Smith
08-29-2016, 08:16 PM
Inside primed center fire cartridges weren't uncommon at all. Bannerman's sold the stuff by the case back in the day.

True, but the key word is "weren't". Today they are way less common.

orisolo
08-29-2016, 08:29 PM
Yup, '67 GTO ware common once and sold for $2k but today they sell for more...

Question is, is this 50-45 Peabody? I compare the dimensions to the one in the auction it is seams close enough to be the same but I like to make sure before offering it for sell.
I don't like to mislead anyone.
If anyone here on the forum like to buy one or all let me know

Thank you for the help and the input.

orisolo
08-29-2016, 08:36 PM
I just found this post that suggest this is a 56-50 Spencer according to the HS.
If this forum is correct this is a ~150 years old bullet

https://forum.cartridgecollectors.org/t/spencer-headstamps/2139

http://i142.photobucket.com/albums/r115/Antman452/S_SpencerSA-4.jpg
Headstamp: Impressed S.A.W.
Company: D.C. Sage ammunition Works
Years: 1864-1866
Found on: .56-50 Spencer Only

mac60
08-29-2016, 09:12 PM
Ori - Here is food for thought. Cartridges of the world gives the following measurements for the .56-50 Spencer:

Bullet diameter .512
Neck diameter .543
Base diameter .556
Rim diameter .639
Rim thickness .065
Case length 1.156
Cartridge OAL 1.632

Now - look at the dimensions of the cartridge that was sold at auction:

Rim diameter .640
Base diameter .558
Neck diameter .540
Case length 1.155
cartridge OAL 1.625

I really think the cartridge sold at auction was a .56-50 Spencer rimfire cartridge. I think what you have there are .56-50 Spencer rimfire cartridges. There are several who feel that this cartridge is inside primed central fire. If it were inside primed the crimp would much closer to the base (which serves as an "anvil" to hold the primer in place and allow the firing pin to ignite it). This crimp at the base was standard and needed on inside primed cartridges. Here is a link where you can see this for yourself (you have to do some scrolling around and look)

http://cartridgecollectors.org/?page=glossary

Sage ammunition works (S.A.W) operated from 1864-1866. The Spencer rifle/carbine was a rimfire firearm. In later years many were converted to center fire and cartridges were made from .50-70 central fire rifle brass. This was post war and the Sage works was already in decline. The cartridge is a RIMFIRE.

Ecramer
08-30-2016, 11:28 AM
I make no claims at being a true expert, but the cartridge pictured does not have centerfire ("Benet") priming like the early .45-70 and .45-Colt cartridges used by the US Army. Those are crimped on the sides, true, but just in front of the rim, to anchor the primer in place.

This cartridge is crimped at the base of the bullet. My eyeball said 56-50 Spencer, but measurements seem to indicate its the Peabody cartridge. Both are rimfire.

Ithaca Gunner
08-30-2016, 12:30 PM
You're right about the crimp near the rim, all I've seen have had a skip crimp just above the rim. .45-70 & .45 Colt anyways.

mac60
08-30-2016, 02:52 PM
I make no claims at being a true expert, but the cartridge pictured does not have centerfire ("Benet") priming like the early .45-70 and .45-Colt cartridges used by the US Army. Those are crimped on the sides, true, but just in front of the rim, to anchor the primer in place.



This cartridge is crimped at the base of the bullet. My eyeball said 56-50 Spencer, but measurements seem to indicate its the Peabody cartridge. Both are rimfire.

Comparing the measurements between the cartridge sold at auction as a .50-45 Peabody and the measurements given in COW for a .56-50 Spencer leads me to believe that the cartridge sold at auction was actually a .56-50 Spencer - in other words, somebody got taken.