44 Magnum throat size

[fatelvis]

I just bought a S&W 629-4 Classic, and am trying to make up some light loads, using NOE 432241 Keith style boolits. I casted a bunch and sized them to .430". When I tried dropping the sized boolit into the chambers, they hung up in the throats, and couldn't be coaxed through without considerable force. Should I just buy a .429" die and try it again? I've never had a revolver with such tight throats, is this common on the 629? I was also curious as to the groove diameter of the barrel, but I've read it's hard to measure because of the 5 lands/grooves. Any advice would be appreciated as to how you would proceed. Thanks!

[Silverboolit]

You could try wrapping a piece of aluminum from a beverage can around a bullet that has been pushed through the bore, hold it tight around and measure. Measure the thickness of the aluminum times 2 and subtract from your bullet measurement. Should be close.

[Outpost75]

Recent S&W .44 Magnums I have checked for people all run .4285-.4290" with barrel groove diameters .429"...

If you don't have pin gages, find a jacketed .429" bullet and actually verify its diameter with a micrometer and try it in your cylinder throats. My S&W Texas Commemorative Model 544 .44-40 has .4285" throats and shoots just fine with cast bullets sized .429 or jacketed bullets of that diameter. A .44 Magnum S&W of those dimensions should do likewise.

[fatelvis]

Recent S&W .44 Magnums I have checked for people all run .4285-.4290" with barrel groove diameters .429"...
Would a 629-4 be considered "recent"? If so, I think sizing my boolits to .429" might be in order.

[mdi]

You need to measure your cylinder throats to be sure. Pin gauges/plug gauges are a pretty good method (calipers give false measurements when measuring ID of a small cylinder). You can press an oversized slug (or soft bullet) through the cylinder throats and measure with a micrometer. I don't have a .44 Magnum newer than circa 1992 and all have .430" throats and I size all my lead bullets to .430" (Ruger SBH, Dan Wesson 44H, S&W 629).

Finding bullet to gun fit is kinda like buying britches. You can try on a bunch of pants and finally find a size that fits, or you can measure your waist and get the size that fits...

[Tatume]

You haven't said how well the 0.430" bullets shoot. Shoot them. If they shoot well, shoot some more. If they don't shoot well, and you have a 0.429" size die, try it. If they shoot well, make more. Shooting speaks louder than measurements.

[44man]

It does no good at all to shoot boolits larger then throats. Throats should be at the minimum .0005" over groove and a boolit at the minimum should be groove size. Best would be throats .001" larger. A tad more will not hurt.
You must know groove in any case. Most S&W's I have measured run .429" and if a boolit that size will slip through throats they will shoot. If not Doug can fix the gun.
My SBH has .430" groove and .4324" throats and shoots a .430 to .432" boolit with astounding accuracy. Every S&W I owned would do 1/2" at 50 yards.
Here is a 200 yard group from my SBH with a .430" boolit.175266
You don't have to get twisted out of shape, just do the basics.

[Silverboolit]

You could do the quickie test. Slug the bore and take the slug and see if it fits through the throats easily. If it does, you should be good to go.

[44man]

You could do the quickie test. Slug the bore and take the slug and see if it fits through the throats easily. If it does, you should be good to go.
Yes, it works. I keep forgetting that. Thank you for that.

[DougGuy]

You could do the quickie test. Slug the bore and take the slug and see if it fits through the throats easily. If it does, you should be good to go.

I was going to suggest that. That is the no tools way of checking for throat fit. If the slug won't go through the throats, then there is a problem.

[fatelvis]

I'll be trying the quickie test today. If there is a problem, you will be hearing from me as a customer Doug! Lol
Thanks guys....

[runfiverun]

my quickie test is to drive the 1.8 miles to the range and run off a couple of cylinders full of the 430 boolits I already have loaded.
if they shoot well I stop trying to fix stuff and start working on hitting things.

[fatelvis]

my quickie test is to drive the 1.8 miles to the range and run off a couple of cylinders full of the 430 boolits I already have loaded.
Ahhh, your thinking is definitely consistent with your signature! Lol
As always, thanks for your input River, it is always appreciated and valued. BUT.... I only sized a handfull of the boolits, and haven't loaded them yet. AND... my range is about 50 miles away! Lol
As we speak, a .429" die is speeding to my home from Midsouth....

[44man]

It is why I find stuff. I can shoot in my yard and have a 200 yard range down the hill in my woods. I am close to town and have neighbors but they don't care and I even hear shots from town.
To need to drive a long way really limits things. I can shoot, come back up and try something else right quick.
Even in Ohio, I had places to shoot within minutes of home. Farms and such. I had places to hunt from the lake to the river. Such great people.
Same here. Look for Bakerton WV on map quest. Eastern panhandle. Search 379 Cherry run Rd and see how close to town I am.
The funny thing is I am in a HOA that says no shooting or hunting but we blew that out of the water. I can shoot and hunt all my neighbors lands without asking first.

[Tatume]

my quickie test is to drive the 1.8 miles to the range and run off a couple of cylinders full of the 430 boolits I already have loaded.
if they shoot well I stop trying to fix stuff and start working on hitting things.


You haven't said how well the 0.430" bullets shoot. Shoot them. If they shoot well, shoot some more. If they don't shoot well, and you have a 0.429" size die, try it. If they shoot well, make more. Shooting speaks louder than measurements.

Ditto

[44man]

50 to 100 miles to a range--DANG, you better have a lot of things to test. Primer tests, powder charges and alloys. Boolit sizes and on and on. Best to listen to results from actual tests to shorten the curve.

[fatelvis]

That is why I find this forum so useful! LOL


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[mdi]

I guess my methods stem from being a lifelong machinist/mechanic. I want to know what I'm working with, in real life measurements, and find a WAG disconcerting to say the least. Keep trying and eventually you'll find britches that fit...

[runfiverun]

yeah I tend to think a bit like that.
I have only found one 44 so far that needs the cylinders opened slightly and evened out.
my solution to that was to swap out the cylinder from the revolvers twin until I can get it sent out to Doug.

[fatelvis]

I have only found one 44 so far that needs the cylinders opened slightly and evened out.
By any chance was it a S&W 629?

[runfiverun]

nope a stainless ruger 44 special.
it shot well enough without leading but the accuracy was lacking and you could see on paper that the cylinders were cut to different diameters.
as soon as I swapped in the blued cylinder immediately the groups shrank and become uniform.
then I went home and started measuring stuff.
I still haven't sent that cylinder off.
mostly because I have flat rate boxes full of home made 44 cal jacketed bullets made to 430 diameter.
the browning 92 and the 44 special both shoot the same load quite well with them so they kind of become a paired up misfit team.

the 624's of olden day's did have some dimensional discrepancy's.
but AIRC they were more centered around the throat of the barrel, usually needing the entrance opened and the angle changed somewhat in the process.
their dimensions run closer to 429/429 rather than 430/429.
but I wouldn't have even hesitated to give 430 a run the worst that happens is you raise your pressure 3-400 psi.

[DougGuy]

The most important part of the cylinder is that the throats are all even with each other. You can always size to fit the throats. Uneven throats cause uneven pressures shot to shot so it automatically induces a variable into the recoil impulse that causes the muzzle to be in different locations in the recoil cycle, when the booilt leaves. They don't call them sixguns for nothing ;)



but I wouldn't have even hesitated to give 430 a run the worst that happens is you raise your pressure 3-400 psi.

At target velocities yes. At magnum velocities, swaging a boolit .002" in the cylinder can gain you as much as 5000psi depending on how hard the alloy is. Anything that adds to or creates resistance raises pressure.

My modded collet crimp raises pressure but it does so at the very instant of ignition by holding the boolit back against movement from just the primer lighting off. Magnum primers will often cause a boolit to move enough to jump crimp even before the rest of the powder lights off good. Now, you have velocities that are all over the map if you chrony loads that are doing this. I found the modded crimp to lower ES significantly which improves groups appreciably.

Resistance is not only necessary for proper ignition, it is key for consistency. This is reflected in the neck tension on the case, the amount of crimp and style of crimp, and ultimately the diameter of the cylinder throats.

Modded collet crimp used on Left, standard roll crimp used on Right. Fired cases show crimp bands as they are opened up by firing. Boolit is Lee C430-310-RF cast 50/50+2%.

http://i1202.photobucket.com/albums/bb374/DougGuy/Reloading/DSC03150_zps2fffcc0c.jpg (http://s1202.photobucket.com/user/DougGuy/media/Reloading/DSC03150_zps2fffcc0c.jpg.html)

[44man]

Darn Doug, boolit too soft, too much crimp. Case tension all over.175369175370 You can see lube grooves in my brass and the base. too much crimp will size the boolit more. The crimp does not jump open, the boolit scrapes it open. My .500 JRH has less crimp then your .44.

[44man]

[AT TACH=CONFIG]175372[/ATTACH]Thought I taught better. Any sign of crimp left on a fired case is EVIL. You have sized the boolit.
I guess I need more crimp since 50 yards is sad.

[DougGuy]

Darn Doug, boolit too soft, too much crimp. Case tension all over.175369175370 You can see lube grooves in my brass and the base. too much crimp will size the boolit more. The crimp does not jump open, the boolit scrapes it open. My .500 JRH has less crimp then your .44.

Hard alloy needs a LOT less crimp to keep the boolit from moving. You can see lube grooves easier with hard alloy. Soft alloy is a whole different ball game. It takes more crimp because the alloy can swage at the crimp groove so you don't want this to happen. lube groove ripples are there on soft alloy but not nearly as pronounced. My collet crimp opens fully. I can push a sized boolit right into the case mouth of the fired case. It can't swage it down if it is opened enough to do that!

Here is an anomaly that happens with soft metals. If you put it under enough pressure, it has the properties of a liquid. Copper, have you ever seen them make copper pipe fittings? 5,000psi of pressure blows a straight piece of pipe into a tee in a matter of seconds.

Boolits, do the same thing. By the same pressures we swage lead into a die, the pressure from firing swages the lead outward against the case walls, until the case walls are restrained by the cylinder wall. The soft lead boolit at this point becomes sized to that diameter, and if you could stop the boolit halfway out of the case, and then take it out and look at it, you would have:

A. The nose and ogive of the boolit in the cylinder throat.

B. The middle of the boolit on the same taper as the chamfer in the chamber.

C. The base of the boolit still in the case mouth, swaged by pressure to the inside of the case wall.

So in effect, the boolit under the tremendous pressure of firing a full house magnum load, swages out as far as the confines of the cylinder will allow it, and as it moves into the cylinder throat, it becomes swaged back down to throat diameter by the chamfer in the end of the chamber, and it leaves the front of the cylinder at throat diameter. It's like taking a wooden dowel and pushing a ball of play doh through the charge hole and out the front of the cylinder.

The lower the pressure, the less of this swaging action will happen. The harder the alloy, the less of this swaging action will happen because the pressure at which the hard alloy begins to share some of the physical properties of a liquid, is MUCH higher than what is developed in the case upon firing.

Jacketed bullets swage easy also because their cores are dead soft lead. A jacketed bullet will fire through a tight cylinder throat, and then through a badly thread choked barrel, and then bump back up to groove/land diameter pretty easily. How do I know this?

Targets that I fired with jacketed bullets maintained the SAME point of impact both before and after reaming tight cylinder throats and also taylor throating a severely choked barrel. Hard cast boolits point of impact dropped 4" in 20 yards.

[44man]

Soft is ruined faster. Takes more to hold in place for ignition but the heavy crimp makes the boolit smaller at exit. You lose case tension.

[DougGuy]

Yes but it swages to throat diameter anyway so nothing is lost. Plus I think the soft alloy forces the lube against the bore more than a hard alloy does. The boolits I showed in the photo shoot really well. I have yet to take a deer with one but I have no doubt they will perform admirably.

I would probably have to shoot at least two deer maybe three so it stops one of these RF boolits and I can recover it and see what it looks like. If I can get a shot in the woods of 3 standing in a line, maybe I can catch a boolit.

I caught a 300gr XTP out of the second deer one year, fired from a short barreled Vaquero over 23gr of W296 the nose is .700"+ flattened all the way back to the cannelure.

[44man]

OK, darn sure kill a stack. Been waiting for that opportunity myself, save 13 cents! :bigsmyl2:
With the .44 I would save a dime!
I guess your boolits are not that soft anyway and it is weight that penetrates. The Lee 310, LBT 320 and mine is 330 gr. I average 18 to 22 BHN depending on the stack of ingots.
My .475 boolit is 420 gr and the JRH is 440 gr. The JRH does not work with a full hard and might not drop the first deer, it will run 100 or more yards, it is a sharp stick and should start killing better on the 3rd deer. Softening just half the ogive turns it into a mush maker. The .475 needs nothing, it just drops most deer. .44 average will be about 30 yards.
My worst is the BFR 45-70 at 1630 fps. A hard boolit will have deer go 200 to 300 yards with no blood trail. I have to soften the nose. Even a WFN sucks and has proven worse then a WLN. I swear this one needs 5 deer to work. No "dwell time." A sharp stick is better, pin the deer down and beat with a club!
I use Felix lube and most of my revolvers have not had the bores cleaned in 3 years, just the cylinders to keep fresh STP lube. Most times I don't bother with chambers either.
A boolit can be too hard but they have been the most accurate for me so I mess with the nose. I won't use pure on the nose, 3# of pure and 1# of WW metal might even be too soft.
I can't bring myself to a full soft unless a ML.
Don't hit bone. I shot this one front shoulder when she stopped as the hammer fell. Took out all the good burger in the neck too.175415 Someone will always say to use a soft HP???? This boolit only had about 1/8" softer.
Over 190 revolver kills has shown the worst to the best and all calibers. NOT a .357, won't fool with one.

[runfiverun]

Doug I don't think you risk the 5-K area until your over the .003 and into the .004 area.
after .004 all bets are off as to how much pressure will climb.
going .001-2 is really a non issue as far as even seeing pressure out of line with a 'normal' diameter bullet.

[44man]

I can't measure pressure, just go by sticky brass. Lead is so much more forgiving.
The only thing is to not turn throats into size dies. Fit is best. To shoot a .432" boolit from a .429" throat into a .430" Groove is insanity.
When will insanity go away? Darn, forgot obturation and "bump up." Funny guys!

[Char-Gar]

While a fan of the 44 Magnum, I have never been moved to own a mess of them. I own two at the current time and they are both great shooters.

1. A 1970 vintage Ruger Super Blackhawk that has a .430 barrel and .432 cylinder throats. I shoot .432 cast bullet in it.

2. A 1991 vintage 629 Classic that has .429 barrel and .430 cylinder throats. I shoot .430 cast bullet in it and it is the most accurate revolver I have every owned.

I shoot very, very few full snort magnum load, sticking to 900 to 1,100 fps loads. Mild recoil and plenty of thump when they hit.

[DougGuy]

Doug I don't think you risk the 5-K area until your over the .003 and into the .004 area.
after .004 all bets are off as to how much pressure will climb.
going .001-2 is really a non issue as far as even seeing pressure out of line with a 'normal' diameter bullet.

I got that figure from Iowegan over on another forum, long time gunsmith and ruger umm.. guru maybe? Something like that. TBH, I don't know if it was my cylinder throats causing the increased dwell time or the .448" thread choke in the barrel. I suspect it might be more the barrel, when I slugged it with a cleaning rod and a tight patched jag, it got to the shank portion and I had to BEAT the DAYLIGHTS out of it to get it through. It was terrible. Thought the cleaning rod was going to start folding up.

I never shot the gun between doing the cylinder throats and the taylor throat. Should have I guess but then again that would have let a hardcast .452" go against the forcing cone full diameter, where once it got through the throats of the cylinder, it hit the .448" barrel slightly smaller than it started out. 340gr of SSK TC cast with lino over 22.5gr W296 omg what a wrist twister! It would turn the gun sideways in your hand.

Oh well all behind me now, I have relegated this Vaquero and it's heavy boolits to hogs. I have enlisted the utility of a 5 1/2" medium framed Vaquero for deer, using some of Veral's very fine 250gr WFN-PB over 21.5gr H110 in Schofield brass, 1180 ~ 1200fps load, still under 23,000psi, accurate and perfect for deer or bear.

[fatelvis]

I'm sending my 629 cylinder and a 686 cylinder to Doug tomorrow, so he can work his magic on them!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[fatelvis]

I just received my 629 and 686 cylinders back from Doug. Wow, that was a fast turnaround and what beauuuutiful work!! I dropped a .430" sized boolit in each of the 629's chambers. And a .358" sized boolit in the 686's, and all of them were uniform and needed an all so gentle "push" with a pencil to make them drop through. I can't wait to shoot these and see, finally, the accuracy potential of these great revolvers with my cast boolits!
Thanks Doug!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk