Something Quite Disturbing to me

[Artful]

Found this thread about a catastrophic shooting "accident"
http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_3_118/700705_300_BLK_through__223_Rifle_Kaboom___56K_War ning_.html&page=1

Seems someone went shooting with their 223 AR's with store bought ammo but somehow a
300 blackout cartridge found it's way into a 223 ammo box and of course blew up the rifle.
Fortunately the shooter wasn't hurt when it went off.

300 Blackout round fired in 223 rifle mistakenly
http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/image-203-660x472.jpeg
What was poked out of barrel
http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/image-210-376x660.jpeg



And another person reported that he bought a box of ammo and noticed a cartridge was swapped for a different cartridge in his box of ammo.

It would appear that some prankster or some of the Anti-gunner crowd are trying gorilla warfare type tactics.

So if your buying ammo - please check that you are actually getting what you think you are.

And if you find anything unusual you don't place it into your firearm. My next concern is if they take to putting correct cartridge hand loaded with overload of fast powder into factory boxes.

[merlin101]

I never thought of anti-gun terrorism. A few years ago I bought a box of (IIRC) .45acp and right in the middle was one cartridge that was different (.460Rowland)?? I never paid much attention thinking maybe a factory screw up or someone at the store comparing the two.

[edler7]

Just one more reason to load 'em myself. If I find something like that, I know right where to find the guy that did it.

[Butchman205]

More and more...I prefer to roll my own.
This is another reason why.


-Butchman

[EMC45]

Buying ammo? What is this you talk about?

[smokeywolf]

I've never owned or even shot an AR platform. How does a 300 BO chamber in a 223 to the point that the bolt will close and the gun can fire? Also, how can the guy charging the magazine(s) not notice the difference between the 223s and a 300 BO? A 300 BO will fit in a 223 magazine?

[Harter66]

This is the 4-5th 300 BO in a 223/556 blow up I've seen this yr .

I have a couple of questions .
How is it possible to chamber a 300 in a 223/556 AR ?
That's like getting a 308 bolt closed on a 358 Winchester .
The 300 is over twice the 223 bullet and neck diameter and the same OAL .
When loading a magazine you didn't notice a round with no neck and a bullet even in extremes 1.5-3x maybe 5x as heavy . 55 vs 250 or 72 vs 125 . You maybe didn't notice it when you loaded a stripper clip .... That's like not noticing a Peterbuilt in a parking lot of pickups .
I've never pulled down a factory round but there are a lot of handloaders that use a full case of powders like H110 so breach seating and neck sizing doesn't work as a theory for me here .

I've seen my share of Weatherby shoulders on 7mm RM brass but have shoved a few new empty cases in a 264 WM in a 98 , I don't see it with a seated bullet on a full case and that's only .007 .

That leaves a load with only a half case powder and a very very heavy spring on a 223 lower or hammering on the forward assist.

Pay attention .......

These 2 cartridges aren't like getting a 350 RM in a 7mm STW .

[WebMonkey]

Same smokeywolf.
How does a 30 chamber in a 22.
I can see mashing the projectile with the foward assist, but not the brass with projectile in it.

yes, the 300 blackout was intentionally designed to 'work' in stock magazines.
part of the 'selling point' of the blackout cartridge.

swap your barrel and away you go from, 5.56 to 300BO.
:)

[Artful]

I've never owned or even shot an AR platform. How does a 300 BO chamber in a 223 to the point that the bolt will close and the gun can fire?
http://blog.westernpowders.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/300-ACC-Blackout72.jpg


Also, how can the guy charging the magazine(s) not notice the difference between the 223s and a 300 BO? A 300 BO will fit in a 223 magazine?
300 blackout is made from a shortened 223 case and is designed such that the only change to the rifle is a barrel change to shoot it in an AR.

[Artful]

This is the 4-5th 300 BO in a 223/556 blow up I've seen this yr .

I have a couple of questions .
How is it possible to chamber a 300 in a 223/556 AR ?
See answer above


That's like getting a 308 bolt closed on a 358 Winchester.
No, the 358 is based on a full length 308 case - the 300 blackout on a shortened case.



The 300 is over twice the 223 bullet and neck diameter and the same OAL.
COAl is the same so as to operate from the magazine yes, not case length.
and the danger is firing a .308 trying to get it to squeeze down to .224.



When loading a magazine you didn't notice a round with no neck and a bullet even in extremes 1.5-3x maybe 5x as heavy . 55 vs 250 or 72 vs 125 . You maybe didn't notice it when you loaded a stripper clip .... That's like not noticing a Peterbuilt in a parking lot of pickups .
I've never pulled down a factory round but there are a lot of handloaders that use a full case of powders like H110 so breach seating and neck sizing doesn't work as a theory for me here .

I've seen my share of Weatherby shoulders on 7mm RM brass but have shoved a few new empty cases in a 264 WM in a 98 , I don't see it with a seated bullet on a full case and that's only .007 .

That leaves a load with only a half case powder and a very very heavy spring on a 223 lower or hammering on the forward assist.

Pay attention .......

These 2 cartridges aren't like getting a 350 RM in a 7mm STW .

New shooter might not even notice it didn't look like the others - we were all there once.
But my concern is complacency about accepting that it's new box and we don't examine
them like we should - especially if someone tampers with the contents at the store.

[starmac]

It could be and sure might have been an antigunner that swapped the ammo.
That said without knowing the guy that shot it, but knowing a lot of folks that shouldn't even look at a firearm hard, it could have also been some guy that wanted to see how well it shot, or if it would. I don't expect he would admit doing it on purpose if it was.

[Blackwater]

Good post, Artful. Thanks. Could be as you fear, or could also be some idjit who was looking at ammo putting them back into different (wrong boxes). No telling, really, but one ALWAYS needs too pay attention to anything that looks out of place. Just goes to point up that even factory ammo isn't "foolproof!" They keep making better and better fools every day .... and the malicious.

[Artful]

It could be and sure might have been an antigunner that swapped the ammo.
That said without knowing the guy that shot it, but knowing a lot of folks that shouldn't even look at a firearm hard, it could have also been some guy that wanted to see how well it shot, or if it would. I don't expect he would admit doing it on purpose if it was.

Except that he states neither of them own a 300 blackout - and I have seen multiple people now (even on this board) that report that their factory box of ammo had an incorrect caliber cartridge in the box.

And I'd be willing to bet that the ammo Factories have very strict procedures to see that it won't happen on their end.

[Echo]

One time at our range a guy shot a 7mm Mauser round in a 7mm Mag rifle. Shot, don't know if it hit near aim point, but sure modified the case. He said, 'Well, it's 7mm, isn't it?'. They are out there...

[Pine Baron]

Reminds me of project Pole Bean. :shock:

[Harter66]

Must be why 20ga is yellow and 16ga used to be purple .

I've seen the cases sxs but never in a chamber cut away I guess it is like getting the 350 in a 7STW .
Still you'd think.......

[Artful]

One time at our range a guy shot a 7mm Mauser round in a 7mm Mag rifle. Shot, don't know if it hit near aim point, but sure modified the case. He said, 'Well, it's 7mm, isn't it?'. They are out there...

I seen that in reverse when I was safety officer at the range one day - guy trying his darndest to slam a cartridge in his "new to him" Surplus Mexican Mauser in 7x57 - had been sold a box of 7mm Remington Magnums - 'cuz he just asked for a box of 7mm.

[Artful]

Must be why 20ga is yellow and 16ga used to be purple .

I've seen the cases sxs but never in a chamber cut away I guess it is like getting the 350 in a 7STW .
Still you'd think.......

Oh, it's bad's when you have a newbie drop a 20 in a 12 also.
https://www.hunter-ed.com/images/drawings/ammo_warning.jpg
https://i.ytimg.com/vi/3t9KJM5_qDk/hqdefault.jpg

Frankly, I was surprised not more damage to AR and shooter with the 300 blackout incident.
- New Bolt and Barrel and inspect upper for cracks and away you go.

[OeldeWolf]

I thought that it was Operation Patriot's Son in the Viet Namh War, which mixed in rounds designed to blow up when fired, into NVN supplies? Tnhough I had a friend (USMC) who said he left sabotaged AK's and magazines for the NV's to find.

[2wheelDuke]

I've always been afraid of a mixup between .223/5.56 and 300blk. Most of the loads I prefer to shoot in .300blk won't chamber in the .223 because the boolit starts to headspace the round too early. But there's always that chance of it being pushed further back into the case and compressing the powder. It seems to be mostly the lighter jacketed 300's that are able to chamber in a .223.

I try to use a different style of magazine for each to minimize the chances of a mistake.

I remember shooting with a friend when I had 2 1911's. One had a .400 cor-bon barrel in it. For those that aren't familiar, .400 cor-bon is a .45acp case necked down to .40 caliber. I had things set up so that each gun had it's appropriate ammo, and they were on separate benches.

Somehow, a magazine of cor-bon rounds made their way into the .45acp gun anyway. My friend started shooting, and wondered why it sounded so quiet. I don't believe it cycled, so he cleared it. After a couple times, I looked and saw what was going on. The boolits weren't making it to the target and the cases were blowing back out to .45acp dimensions. Fortunately they weren't the other way around.

[dbarry1]

My friend has a 300bo and I've got a couple 223's we shoot together. Never thought of ammo mix up till this post. Yikes. Thanks for posting this.

[xs11jack]

It looks like dealers are going to have to put factory ammo in a locked case and take it out for inspection by the buyer with the dealer hovering over him. while this will stop sabotage if that is what this case was, it will inconvenience both the customer and the dealer. With killery harping on the 2nd amend. I wouldn't put it passed someone switching ammo even knowing that it might kill someone. Remember that woman that played Willow in CSI? She tweeted someone that she wished all gunowners would die. There are some evil ones out there, be careful.
Ole Jack

[Hamish]

"I try to use a different style of magazine for each to minimize the chances of a mistake."

Ive used P-Mags in the BO and steel mags in the .223 from the beginning, because the BO ran flawlessly with them. I wonder how the Teams/SF communities differentiate their mags?

[smokeywolf]

Artful,

Thanks for your post #9. A prime example of, "a picture is worth a thousand words".

[Artful]

Your Welcome smokeywolf (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/member.php?17391-smokeywolf)

[Artful]

With killery harping on the 2nd amend. I wouldn't put it passed someone switching ammo even knowing that it might kill someone. Remember that woman that played Willow in CSI? She tweeted someone that she wished all gunowners would die. There are some evil ones out there, be careful.
Ole Jack

I remember when the "Greenie's" started spiking Trees after a sale of Forest Land was scheduled for cutting - Nasty People - Don't think of or have empathy for the other person.

[JWT]

Same can happen with 8mm and 30-06.

[Swede 45]

Probably someone at the shop had a little show and tell? Picking out one of each to explain and show.. Got distracted along the way and put them back wrong ..
Seen storeclerks do the show and tell plenty of times..

[OS OK]

The guy was prolly playing 'donkey kong' on his iPhone while he loaded magazines the night before.
What ever happened to being 'observant' and paying attention to what you are doing?
I think the modern man has the attention span of a goldfish these days!

[popper]

I think the modern man has the attention span of a goldfish these days! Yup. I've been one a couple times. Seems like I've lately seen more ammo boxes glued shut to prevent pilfering.

[nagantguy]

years ago some idiots we're going into guns galor, probably my favorite gun store of all times and putting live ammo in rifles on the show floor, I don't think they were ever caught but it happened more than once, and I do remeber one case where it was a odd/uncommon caliber like 458 lott that had live ammo inside it. so maybe not your typical run of the mill anti gun moron but I'm not sure. this only roughly corilates with your post, but it was the first thing that popped into my head.
second thing that popped into my head, as there is lots of room was last winter when bought some new winchester super x 30 30 ammo from dunhams , I posted about it then, one round was so bent at the shoulder it would never chamber, another was slightly bent and a few rounds had cracked and very brittle brass. I sent it in and they replaced it, gave me a voucher for another box and a coupon for 50% off winchester gear.

[starmac]

I know it is easy to overlook things, but when one loads a 300 blackout while loading 223, does he think, oh nice a fat one??

[Storydude]

I know it is easy to overlook things, but when one loads a 300 blackout while loading 223, does he think, oh nice a fat one??
I'm the same....How in creation did he not notice this?

Reminds me of a guy that bought a custom Mauser in 7mmRem, a whole box of locomotive killing rounds and brings me both, wanting to do a chamber cast...."Because the bolt won't close...It's not 7mm"

I asked him to show me....he dropped in the round into the breech and tried closing the bolt..."See? It won't Close!"

I took it, pushed round INTO magazine, loaded like butter.
He STILL SWORE up and down it wasn't a 7mm.

45 min and a 80 dollar chamber cast later he finally relents and accepts it's a 7mmRem.

I told him to go and buy another box, because the bent rims on all of his probably won't extract easily.

I should have bought it off of him when he got divorced....It was a nice gun.

[ShooterAZ]

I'm the same....How in creation did he not notice this?

I'm in this camp also, someone clearly wasn't paying attention...Factory ammo or not

[AggieEE]

I've just got through building a 300BO, don't have ammo for it yet. I'm looking at color coding the mags. My 223 is black with black pmags. the 300 is flat dark earth and I want to color the mags the same. That way if a shtf situation happens it will keep me from doing something stupid while in a hurry to reload.

[Artful]

I know it is easy to overlook things, but when one loads a 300 blackout while loading 223, does he think, oh nice a fat one??

Just out of curiosity did any of you go to the link in the first post?

Did any of you read the first line in the linked story?

The one that goes like

"Took a friend of mine out with a rifle I had put together for him a few years ago; he'd never fired it."

[starmac]

Just out of curiosity did any of you go to the link in the first post?

Did any of you read the first line in the linked story?

The one that goes like

"Took a friend of mine out with a rifle I had put together for him a few years ago; he'd never fired it."

Ok, first time, now when he was loading the mag, and got to the 300 blackout round, did he think oh nice a fat one?
I get it that anyone can make a mistake, but you would think loading the mag a guy should notice the difference.
If I owned both, I would be more concerned about grabbing a mag loaded with the wrong round than mixing them up at the time of loading.

I do not doubt that it came in a factory box, being it on purpose (entirely possible) or someone checking out the difference and screwing up. It is the reason most stores frown on anyone opening boxes of ammo.

[Artful]

Having been a range officer and instructing newbie's - I've seen people try and load ammo into the wrong end of the cylinder on a revolver (you know from the front) - loaded shells into my Remington 870 base forward and jammed it up real nice - so I have NO doubt a newbie wouldn't even blink at putting a 300 BO in with 223 ammo.

[TXGunNut]

Wow, pretty scary! Saw some non-Weatherby ammo fired in Weatherby rifles and IIRC a 308W fired in a 270W back when I RO'd on a public range. Didn't realize the BO would chamber in a 5.56 but it seems to do so quite easily. It's safe to assume that folks who don't assemble their own ammo (let alone, cast boolits!) don't spend a lot of time looking at their ammo when transferring it from box to mag.

[DSRichert]

All my 300 BO mags are marked in yellow "300" With extra yellow paint pen in the mag recessions

Sent from my LG-K330 using Tapatalk

[Regulator.]

I know it is easy to overlook things, but when one loads a 300 blackout while loading 223, does he think, oh nice a fat one??
funny good one I'll have to remember that one

[mold maker]

I cleaned a PD range for the brass for several years. You would not believe the brass I found that had been fired in the wrong chamber. This wasn't a public range, everybody there had police training. I never saw or found gun parts from blown guns, but that's not to say it didn't happen.

[Artful]

Lot's of people who are LEO have little interest in firearms - it's like the Handcuffs or Mace they have to carry.
And I knew of Dept's that let the officer choose what they wanted to carry as long as it was good quality and they could qualify so you saw 9mm, 40S&W, 45ACP all on the same line. Funniest thing I saw was two guys with 1911's shooting side by side but one was 45 ACP and he grab'd up a magazine from his buddy and inserted the magazine and when he dropped the slide the entire cartridge came plop out the end of the barrel and landed on the table. :lol:

[Ballistics in Scotland]

Lot's of people who are LEO have little interest in firearms - it's like the Handcuffs or Mace they have to carry.

:lol:

Military rifles are almost never marked with the chambering, because the soldier just loads what they give him. In much the same way, police firearms training seems to begin from the moment the policeperson has the gun and ammunition.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

I've always been afraid of a mixup between .223/5.56 and 300blk. Most of the loads I prefer to shoot in .300blk won't chamber in the .223 because the boolit starts to headspace the round too early. But there's always that chance of it being pushed further back into the case and compressing the powder. It seems to be mostly the lighter jacketed 300's that are able to chamber in a .223.


Always being afraid of it is good. I think you and Artful have nailed how it would happen. It starts with the desire for long bullets, for a very useful light-bullet small-game rifle could have been built with the full case length and cartridge OAL length of the .223. Probably it has been. Everything else has. Still, nobody is doing wrong by selling 8x57 cartridges when there are 30-06 rifles to fire them in, or any of the other dangerous combinations.

General Hatcher tells the story of an intellectually inspired person who loaded shotgun cartridges, for which EC was a popular powder at the time, with military surplus (or non-surplus) EC blank. He blew out a piece of barrel from his fine Lefever shotgun, and attempted to nonchalantly leave the range humming a tune. The general claimed not to know whether it was disorientation or the natural desire not to be taken for a fool. But someone produced his piece of barrel, which had lodged in the woodwork of the range, and could easily have lodged somewhere worse.

Point is, I wouldn't totally trust the second-hand word of someone who has just had an accident, and especially an accident for which legal liability might be alleged. Maybe he had a .300 Blackout. Maybe having used a friend's put him within a little cunning phraseology of the truth. Maybe a friend had picked a round from his box and said "See, they are nearly the same." Maybe he or somebody in the gun store dropped the box and picked up the cartridges.

I find substitution in the factory hard to believe. An anti-gun activist in the gunstore? Well, maybe. But it takes quite a bit of knowledge (Cartridges come in different kinds, do they?), including the telescoping of the bullet if it was intended to be deadly assault rather than inconvenience. I think it would have to be either an employee or a gunstore lax enough to let browsers browse inside ammunion boxes. If they do, they had better stop. I expect if a substitution was made, someone with a .300 is wondering why a bullet flew off he knew not where. The way things happen, it will probably be the shot of a lifetime, too.

The British used to "lose" .303 cartridges loaded with guncotton or blasting gelatin on the Northwest Frontier of India. But you have to choose your market carefully for that kind of thing. The wily Pathan minus a finger or two (he will most likely survive even that) would probably think he has been the butt of a tremendously good joke. But southeast Asians want peace, even if it is their kind of peace, and you will have all his friends and relations out planting punji sticks. In Northern Ireland the British, in discovered arms dumps, confined themselves to shortening firing-pin tips and implanting microchips.

Loading cartridges of different sizes in a shotgun doesn't invariably cause a burst, but has become more likely to with star-crimped cartridges, as an overshot card reduced the chance that the smaller cartridge would fire as well. The most dangerous was 20ga in a 16, which was prevented by Sir Gerald Burrard, when he persuaded cartridge makers to very slightly increase the rim diameter which had allowed this to happen in some guns.