boolit shape

[RED BEAR]

excluding hollow points does the shape of a boolit affect the terminal ballistics or is it simply hardness weight and velocity? does a simi wad cutter preform as well as a flat nose or a round nose?

[Digital Dan]

Yes
No
Maybe

[44man]

Said well. The semi wad cutter meplat works but the shoulder does nothing and is a pain to guide a cylinder. A WLN or RNFP does as good but will clock the cylinder. A WFN can have more drop at long range and is really no better then a WLN on game.
The fact is if a boolit is too hard and fast, a WFN can move tissue out of the way with the pressure wave off the meplat.
Affect on game is determined by boolit construction so a soft nose cast on a WFN is so destructive it is scary.175026 Entry hole from a soft nose that also destroyed the neck before exit.
Meplat work on game changes with velocity and hardness. To depend ONLY on a flat nose can ruin your day.

[runfiverun]

but I'd rather have that flat nose pushing it's way through an animal than a round one.
round noses act like a wedge and worm their way through flesh.
a mismatched alloy/velocity combination is often blamed for failures [this goes for copper coated stuff too]
when it is just the velocity making the bullet/boolit do what it was designed to do faster than intended.

think about it like pushing on a pencil.
you can slowly lean on it's point against a wall but if you push quickly you'll snap the tip off in your hand.

[44man]

That's true to a point. A RN can be soft and expand to work as well. Most hunting bullets have been RN and spire points made to expand.
A FN too hard for the velocity just pokes a small hole. My BFR's in 45-70 and .500 JRH proved very sad. Casting just half the ogive softer cured it. Both guns used a WFN.
Surprisingly the .44 needs no expansion and I believe keeping velocity from about 1100 to 1300 fps, the LBT WLN and the Lee 310 both kill very fast, same in the .45 Colt.
I fell under the spell and thought my larger guns would work with just a WFN, mainly from posts here that said all you need is a flat nose.
After 180 revolver kills, I will beg to differ every day of the week. I had the impression that heavier and faster would be more effective but deer going from 120 to almost 300 yards with double lung hits and losing a couple from no blood trails sure was eye opening.
Now 99% of deer hit with a softer nose are legs up before I am out of recoil. Any that run are down in 20 yards.
The .475 is the fastest killer with a hard 22 BHN WFN. Velocity match causes massive internal damage with no loss of meat.Here is what it does inside. 175054
Now a .44 with a WLN with a 22 BHN boolit. 175055
The .475 is 1329 and the .44 is 1316 fps. I will not trade for more velocity. I have seen it all and know what each caliber needs.
I am convinced too hard, too fast and too flat will move tissue out of the way into a secondary wound channel that collapses back. A WFN can do LESS damage then a WLN or Keith.
I know it sounds funny but you are better off slowing it down.

[runfiverun]

yes the spire points do expand but they are manipulated to do so by exposing the soft lead at the tip and by making the jackets nose thinner.
take away the exposed lead and you slow down [delay] the expansion, change the exposed leads alloy and change it again.
change the thickness of the copper at the nose section [or the alloy of the copper] and you again change the expansion speed.
now take any of the above and speed it up or slow it down and manipulate all of it all over again.
they new wonder bullets are nothing more than attempts to duplicate the old cup and core [horn. interlock/rem corelokt/win P.P.] bullets performance at their older cartridges lower velocity's [28-2900ish fps]

cast works much the same way only on a slower time frame.
you have a terminal performance goal in mind.
mine is to make 2 holes, the front one @ caliber size and the back one about 1.5 times caliber size.
[the old silver dollar exit wound]
the wound appears that large because the skin is drawn outward and tears violently but the internal wounding will show the true picture of what is really happening.
if you overrun the alloy's compressability it will tear apart and create massive shock either at the surface or throughout the entire cavity.
this can be compromised and mitigated by the meplat diameter.
I run my 358 Winchester right up to jacketed speeds with a 250gr boolit and it shoots and acts like a jacketed bullet on deer.
others have tried the same thing and lost entire shoulders the difference is my harder alloy and the small meplat the smaller point allows entrance before the nose starts moving rearward and shearing by the time it slumps enough to really make a difference it's on it's way out again.
something else that's overlooked is the spin speed of the boolit something that is spinning fast is going to have a higher terminal effect on how the boolit works and will require a slightly tougher alloy to deal with that force as well.


BTW the way me and Jim ain't arguing, we are actually agreeing.
we have discussed this many, many,many times :lol:

[osteodoc08]

You mention the exclusion of HP boolits, but even too hard a HP boolit will not function properly.

A softer WFN is my shape of choice for game gettin boolits. Haven't failed me yet but GA deer aren't that tough and the 45/70 could plow through a herd of them if lined up just so.

[44man]

It is true that Runfiverun and I are in agreement. A good man with something you should listen to.
Things are not cut and dried and the printed word with gun rags or those with one or two deer to tell you what works is so sad.
Can you kill with a sharp stick? Seems as if a sharp stone worked better.

[RED BEAR]

i was really looking to cast some soft lead slugs for the better halfs snub 38 and 44 special the velocity being what is obtainable with snub nose in these calibers i figured i could cast pretty soft and still get good results . i figured it would be better to practice with what will be carried than to carry factory hp and practice with something else. i have a variety of molds swc , rnfp ,rn in several weights (38 100gr- 170gr , 44 180gr- 300gr) just wondering if bullet shape was going to make much difference?

[runfiverun]

well pretty much all the above pertains to what you are asking [probably a little too in depth :lol:]
I prefer rnfp's for everything.
I don't know your ultimate goal as far as terminal performance.
personally I would have no problem carrying a low BHN nominal weight boolit in either revolver at around 700 fps.
soft and squishy will inhibit the penetration but you only need about 12-14" to be super effective.
more than 5" will reach vital organs on most people.
the lower speed allows for 'dwell time' which is quite efficient at letting someone know they been shot.

[44man]

I also am a believer in "dwell time." Spin and stability has another good use, a straight path. Hard boolits make the trip straighter so my soft points also depend on even expansion.
Pete shot two deer sideways but nicked shoulder bone on the way in with 320 gr LBT, WLNGC with his .44. Both deer were gut shot when he did not hit there. Boolits turned 90° and he found one in a ham, the other lost in the gut pile. Strange things happen! The Cast Precision boolits are softer then mine.
As you go smaller or slower, another can of worms opens and is a reason I don't like the .357 since boolits/bullets are lighter and don't carry to two holes well. You need more expansion with smaller calibers that limits penetration. I don't like light 180 or 200 gr boolits in the .44 either. If you use XTP's, the best favor you can do yourself is go to the 300 gr.
It is harder to get out of a deer then to get in. I seen videos of a razor sharp broad head going through a buck, the skin pooched out a good 6" before the arrow broke through.
I don't want any bullet to fragment, turn or stop. Not like shooting a BG.