Fillers

[mag_01]

:lovebooli Fillers question---I am going to try fillers--like cream of wheat---my tumbling media----I know it rasies pressure----ball park figure how much should I reduce load---both bottle neck and strait wall cartriges--this forum has a wealth of information----keep em in the black. :smile:

[35remington]

mag, skip the cream of wheat and other such fillers, as they add unnecessary weight to the ejecta. You can do better; I'd suggest dacron. Search some of the other posts here on the proper use of filler.

[StarMetal]

Mag1

Proper use of a Dacron filler: First this stuff is under many disquises such as batting for quilts (I like it this way as you can cut long square strip from it and clip off the amount you need to stuff in your case) stuffed toy fillings, pillow stuffing, etc. Now don't become alarmed when the stuff says it's polyesther because that's what Dacron is, Dacron is just the tradename from DuPont. Okay you just filled your cases with the proper amount of powder. The one most important thing you DON'T want to do is tamp the Dacron into a solid wad atop the powder, leaving an airspace between it and the base of the bullet. This could spell disaster. Second you don't want to pack it in there, you just want to fill the space between the powder and the base of the bullet with it in the form that it pretty much comes in and that is spaceous, lot of air-gaps, not packed tightly. How do you do this? Good question. I use a little pocket screwdriver and like I said I cut into 1/2 square strips, and I cut off the amount that I need to fill the case (this is trial and error, but once you've done this you can guess pretty good in the future) and I place the end on the case mouth and with the tip of my screwdriver drag that end down atop the powder....not into the powder but atop it. The rest of the strip gets pulled in. It's okay to have some of it up into the neck and when you seat your bullet this assures there's no airspace. You don't want to handle the cartridges rough or shake them as some powder, especially the finer kind like ball powder, might migrate into the Dacron. BruceB I believe uses a small allen wrench for his installation tool. You can make something if you want. Just make sure the end of what you use doesn't have a burr on it as it will snag the Dacron and pull it back out. That's all there is too it. You can also use Kapok. Kapok is a natural fiber from some plant and it at one time was used for stuffing in lifejackets and life preservers, toys, etc. You can still buy it. I use it alot yet.

If you have any further questions please ask.

[Char-Gar]

Aarrgghhh!!..FILLERS AGAIN...use PSB and forget the rest!!!

[StarMetal]

PSB costs too much, Dacron is cheaper.

Joe

[JeffinNZ]

Hi
An increasing amount of shooter in NZ are using my 'TCBK' Wool Wads.
http://www.beavergrease.co.nz/page5.htm
My No4 Mk2 Lee Enfield loves them.
Cheers
Jeff

[Buckshot]

..........mag_01, the only cereal fillers I've ever used was cornmeal and that was in a 577 Snider. Otherwise I have used dacron (spun polyester), toilet paper, Grex, and Super Sam.

Starmetal hit the Dacron. Grex, and Super Sam (SS) are both ground up polyester intended to be used as shot buffer. Oddly enough, in shotgun shells :D. Grex was Winchester's tradename for it but they no longer offer it as a seperate component. It was rather course stuff.

SS is finely divided, and while not a dust is more like a ball type smokless powder looking stuff. Naturally it's a kind of grayish off white in color. Grex, due to it's treatment was the lighter of the 2, in volumn comparison. SS is still very light for the area it takes up in the case.

Even though SS is a granular item I still call it a solid. As I'm comparing it to dacron that's what it seems to be in the case. I've only used SS in cases with slower powders (mostly surplus) and with the powder occupying at least 70% of the case. Powders I normally use it with wouldn't constitute an overload with a full case of powder.

I use it to build pressure and consistancy for reduced loads with those powders that would normally be filthy with unburned powder.

There are a couple members here who use COW and I believe they run it in a blender first? Possibly one of'em will chime in and give us the word.

................Buckshot

[joeb33050]

I use Cream Of Wheat = COW now and then. I can shoot unlubricated bullets with COW and get no leading. 44 Mag or 45/70 or Werndl. I feel odd using COW in a bottle neck case, wonder about safety-but have shot thousands without a problem in Krag, Werndl, 06, 30/30 etc. COW makes a good filler when blowing out or forming cartridges, 7TCU from 222 Mag, 30/30 from long buffalo arms 38/55, long 300 WM from 375 H&H etc.
My standard 45/70 load is 15/Unique with a penny sized teased ball of dacron pushed down tight on the powder with a pencil-eraser end. Been using this load since maybe 1976?
Also use toilet paper-works fine, cotton doesn't work for me, it's not springy enough.
I've used dacron mashed down on the powder in many pistol and rifle cartridges for many years without a hint of a ring in cartridge or chamber.
Some report ringed chambers, and lots of BS has been written about this by people who don't know. But, it MAY happen, so I warn others about the possibility.
If you read the C. Dell etc. writing on chamber ringing with fillers, you are left with the knowledge that the information is VERY sparse.
Theories abound, experimentation is sparse.
Ed Lander told me years ago that chamber ringing is caused by a chip on the reamer and that until the same case is used repeatedly the shooter never notices the ring.
joe b.

[Maven]

mag 01, Fillers (cereal, dacron, poly/shot buffer) work very well under certain circumstances and if you are judicious in their use. Starmetal & BruceB have written extensively about dacron, but since I don't use it I won't presume to add to their wisdom. However, I do use powdered bran (bran in an electric coffee mill, hereafter Bf) and poly shot buffers with slow milsurp powders (IMR 5010) + mag. primers to improve their efficiency (as measured by extreme velocity spreads & standard deviations; smudged cases & amount of unburned powder left in the case). As joeb said, they do raise pressure (which is the point) so be careful with them. Here are some ideas on their (poly & Bf) use:


Use either when loading density is 80% or more in bottlenecked cases.

Use in ~.308Win. - .30-06 cases, but not the .243Win. or 6.5 x 55 Mau.

Surprisingly small amounts have beneficial effects. I use no more than 1cc (Lee Dipper) and as little as .3cc (8mm Mau.) to improve efficiency.

Since they raise pressure, reduce your powder charge by at least 1-2gr.

Do not compress them too heavily as they will form a solid plug, which isn't a good thing.

They work particularly well with IMR 5010 (extruded powder) in the aforementioned cartridge types. With WC 860, another slow milsurp (ball powder), results are mixed: Some cartridges show no improvement, e.g., the '06 & 7.62 x 54R while others, e.g. the 7.65 x 53mm, show marked improvement.

If using poly, it's better to store loaded rounds with the primers up (facing you) so as to prevent its migration into the powder charge.


Corn meal has also been used as a filler because it is compressible, but I haven't yet tried it. The main virtue of cereal fillers is their cost and availability. Their main deficits are an extra reloading step and the potential for high pressure or worse if used incorrectly.

[PatMarlin]

Aarrgghhh!!..FILLERS AGAIN...use PSB and forget the rest!!!

What is PSB?

[35remington]

To add to what Maven said, here's what happens when you use fillers like granulated plastic buffer with very light powder charges: not all of it gets blown out of the case. This is most noticeable with the fast shotgun powders or very light, low pressure charges of, say, 2400, H4227, or something similar. The gasses will tunnel past the buffer, leaving some of it in the case. Looks sorta like a dirty snowdrift.

It's a hard deposit, and has to be removed with a pick. Some of the buffer could lodge in the barrel, and a bore obstruction will do your barrel no good if it is not noticed and another round is fired behind it. Having a case partially filled with unnoticed residual buffer and reloading it is not necessarily good for your health either.

I use dacron with light charges of powder in several calibers and have had no troubles with it, but if you're loading ultra light in big cases it may be smarter to go with a smaller cartridge for reduced velocity rather than push velocity too low in a big one.

[Maven]

After rereading my post and 35remington's response, let add that (a) I should have said .308Win. to .30-06 sized cases and (b) using cereal or poly fillers with low loading densities isn't a good thing. Be safe and use them with 80% [loading] density or greater. Otherwise use dacron ala BruceB & Starmetal.

[Char-Gar]

PSB = Precision Shot Buffer

[stocker]

I am beginning to dote on PSB and had a bit of direction in its' use from Chargar.

For my purposes, I use it in small amounts with slow burning powders that provide near full power hunting velocities with heavy for caliber boolits. Amounts of PSB used ranges to date from about 4 grains to 9 grains per cartridge to provide a compressed load. At a 6 and a half grain average per round it is anything but expensive. One pound of PSB does over 1000 rounds.

If you were using more of it over lighter charges of faster burning powder cost may be a concern to some but I'm not even certain it should be used in that manner as I haven't played with those combinations. However it still seems like chicken feed compared to the money put into other components.

In different cartridges it works like a darn over Re7, 15, 19, 22, IMR 4831, H4831 , probably others I haven't tried. There is no PSB barrel residue in these loads, and barrels exhibit only powder fouling. I get no traces of lead fouling at all when using PSB. The same loads with no PSB often leave lead traces near the muzzle. Accuracy is as good as I can shoot with developed loads.

I have two containers on hand and expect them to last a couple of years of regular use.

[BruceB]

This is always an interesting topic, no matter how many times it comes up.

I have tried Grex on a very few occasions, and didn't like it at all, compared to my normal dacron filler. A friend "souvenired" me a baggie of the stuff, and I still have most of it (somewhere...dunno where eggzackly).

Many years back, I read of some episodes using cornmeal and cream-of-wheat in bottleneck cases where the filler apparently compacted very densely under pressure and actually radically lengthened the cases, sometimes right into the throat or even causing case separations as it tried to get through the neck as a solid mass. It seemed to "drag" the neck/shoulder area of the case along with it. This made a certain amount of sense to me then, and still does, even though I was pretty green in those long-ago days.

The one place I DO use cornmeal is in fireforming loads WITHOUT BULLETS, where I believe the cornmeal exerts an "ironing" effect as it tries to get through the confines of the parent case's neck in a relatively-solid mass. My main current use for the technique is in forming .375 Ultra Mag brass to the parent .404 Jeffery shape. The case is sized in a .404 sizer without the expander stem until it will just barely chamber, and this amount of sizing reduces the .375's shoulder diameter and recreates most of the body taper which Remington removed when designing the .375 UM. Most of the shoulder and (of course) the caseneck remain unchanged. A charge of 20.0 2400 under a caseful of cornmeal, fired straight up into the air with NO PROJECTILE gives me perfectly-formed .404 cases.

One reason I prefer dacron to the granulated fillers is that there's NO possibility of mixing the fiber with the powder, unlike the granulated types should there be insufficient compression within the case. Even if a few granules of powder do migrate into the dacron, the effects are likely minimal. I do err a bit to the larger side when making my tufts to ensure this doesn't happen, and I seriously doubt that I get any movement of the powder charge at all. Many use the batts to cut consistent pieces of the filler, but I still prefer using the "loose" bagged polyester and just pulling off the proper-sized tufts. This difference likely is meaningless in load performance; it's just a different way of getting it done.

[Char-Gar]

I use PSB as Stocker suggests...i.e. to top off a charge of medium or slow powder giving slight compression and 100% loading density. I would not use it with small charges of fast powders. My results with PSB mirror those of Stocker. The stuff works.


I can't speak to Grex, either gifted in a sack or bought in a proper container.

[Old Jim]

Tried the dacron on light 44 mag loads to increase probablity that the powder position in the case would be more consistant from shot to shot.
Reduced variation by less than 8 fps. Not worth the effort.

[BruceB]

Old Jim raises a very good point, concerning fillers in conventional handgun cartridges.

Perhaps it's because I generally use loads that bear some resemblance to the original intent of the cartridge in question, but I've never used filler in any straight-case handgun load. I did try dacron a very few times in the .30 Herrett, but that's it for handgun loads with fillers.

I've seen other reports from folks who tried fillers in .44 and .45 revolver loads, but they seemed to be mostly un-impressed with the results. Even in reduced loads, there should be enough primer flash to reach all of the case capacity and ensure good ignition.

My dacron-filled loads are most-often in rifle cases where there is a LOT of empty space, with the most extreme personal example being the .416 Rigby....a 120-grain capacity case often used with 25 or 30 grains of powder. Obviously, such loads really have room to rattle around! Even a .30-06 with a light load can have 2/3 or more of its capacity un-occupied. These are the environments where I find dacron to be valuable, even with powders reputed to "not need fillers", such as 2400, XMP5744 etc. Maybe they don't "need" fillers, but I USUALLY get better accuracy, and lower extreme spreads etc., by using dacron with such powders. Not always, mind you, but usually. I have proven this to my own satisfaction by loading comparison groups of rounds on scores of occasions, with one group having dacron and the second group, otherwise identical, with no filler of any kind. These are usually ten-round samples, with every round chronographed, and I believe my results are statistically valid. In fact, I now install dacron in all such situations and no longer bother with comparison testing

Once a particular charge takes up more than maybe 60% of the case volume, then I think it's worth trying the load with and without dacron, just to see if anything jumps out at me. It's possible that the filler is no longer needed, but I still like to try it both ways.

[StarMetal]

The only benefit I've seen using a fiber filler in a handgun cartridge is that in a revolver it keeps the cylinder face and throats exceptionally clean. I demonstrated this to a friend at the range one day. We both had 45 Long Colt Model 25 Smiths, both using lead reloads. His gun was filthy whereas my looked as though I was shooting factory jacketed. I'm not talking about leading of the bore, I'm talking about the powder carbon and lead wash you get on the face of the cylinder and throats. Not hardly worth the extra reloading work tho.

Joe

[David R]

I have been trying dacron for a while. I also tried toilet paper. Every time I got better ES and SD by far. ONCE I truly got better accuracy every other time it was worse.

It was my pet load of 22.5 grains of 2400 behind a 311291 in the '06. Groups were smaller. I didn't crony those loads, but am sure they were more consistant.

I finally got it, just a small piece, 5/8" square from a 1/8" flat piece pushed over the powder with a small screwdriver. It worked for me.

YMMV
David

[454PB]

Anyone remember Kapok? I'm hoarding the supply I have.

[StarMetal]

I buy brand new Kapok from a place in NC, real nice stuff and very cheap so it's not disappearing.

Joe

[7br]

Anyone remember Kapok? I'm hoarding the supply I have.
Ya know, once upon a time I was in a hurry to load a bunch of 7br rounds for a match. I missed dropping powder in a row of 5 cases. Isn't Kapok the sound of primer only cartridges?

[drinks]

BruceB;
I take .220 Swift cases out to .308 for .303 Savage cases with 4gr Universal, a small tissue wad, a case full of cornmeal and another small tisue wad, shoot into the trash can in the shop, have never lost a case this way.

[454PB]

Ya know, once upon a time I was in a hurry to load a bunch of 7br rounds for a match. I missed dropping powder in a row of 5 cases. Isn't Kapok the sound of primer only cartridges?

Naw, it's more like the sound of slapping yourself in the forehead after that happens.....