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jmorris
08-17-2016, 08:29 AM
Anyone made them? If so what is your process/load data and do they run?

jmorris
08-17-2016, 09:47 AM
Had a little time this morning and came up with this.

Looks like I can get around 330 #12 shot (67 grains) with a card over 2 grains of N310 and the shot.

http://i664.photobucket.com/albums/vv5/qvideo/gn/380ss/IMG_20160817_082331_405_zps68pdyqns.jpg

popper
08-17-2016, 10:21 AM
How'd yo do that? Interested in some for 40SW.

Outpost75
08-17-2016, 10:41 AM
Looks like lathe turn from 5.56mm brass??

jmorris
08-17-2016, 12:43 PM
Yes, it's a turned .223 case. For .40 you would want to start with .30 Remington cases.

victorfox
08-17-2016, 03:10 PM
or if you have time in your hands and willing to load one by one, you could revisit the 44XL and make paper capsules for shot :lol:

you could proably get 90-100 gr of shot...

WebMonkey
08-17-2016, 05:01 PM
174613
these are 38spl shotshells I loaded (top of picture)
over powder card then shot then over shot disk then run through the factory crimp die (sizes after crimping for a nice shell)

the 'shotshell kit' I got from:
http://www.sagesoutdoors.com/shotwads/pistol-shotwad-kits/

good luck

jmorris
08-17-2016, 05:59 PM
380 shot shells.

First step is to turn the .223 case back and I built a little fixture to trim them to .980"

http://i664.photobucket.com/albums/vv5/qvideo/gn/380ss/IMG_20160817_145519_219_zpsqjqwhubb.jpg

Once locked into the fixture I rough cut them long then hit it on a disk sander that gets it to .980"
http://i664.photobucket.com/albums/vv5/qvideo/gn/380ss/IMG_20160817_133731_490_zpsey1x6sp6.jpg

I used Winchester SPP to ignite the N310 under a cardboard wad with 60 grains of #12 shot (about 250 pellets), then a plastic overshot card crimped in place using an old RCBS 45 ACP round nose seat die.

http://i664.photobucket.com/albums/vv5/qvideo/gn/380ss/IMG_20160817_161719_347_zpsms68hftg.jpg

Not the best pattern in the world but not too bad with the small payload.

http://i664.photobucket.com/albums/vv5/qvideo/gn/380ss/IMG_20160817_152658_229_zpsorotgntf.jpg


Even cycles the pistol, here is a video.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rAIcV5CR7eM

victorfox
08-17-2016, 06:49 PM
this is cool. It's a Bersa? Nice looking shells and good shooting.

GRUMPA
08-17-2016, 07:29 PM
Yes, it's a turned .223 case. For .40 you would want to start with .30 Remington cases.

Your right, one of these days I'll need to give it a try....

RoyEllis
08-17-2016, 07:43 PM
You sure? My .40 cases mike .423 at mouth, .424 at base and if memory serves correctly the .30 Rem is the parent case for 10mm auto (the parent case for .40 s&w) as well as parent case of 6.8 SPC.

GRUMPA
08-17-2016, 07:50 PM
I make the 30Rem from 30-30 brass, just check the diameter of a 30-30 case. It'll take a bit of lathe time but it can be done..

popper
08-17-2016, 08:14 PM
Do they cycle OK? I guess 10mm cases would possibly work. Maybe I'll just get some gaiters.

jmorris
08-17-2016, 08:49 PM
Yes, the 380's seem to cycle fine. The video in #8 is of them cycling a Walther PPk and this one is out of a LCP.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r6_6cYlKcso

too many things
08-17-2016, 09:09 PM
wow some of you have WAY too much time I would go fishing

GRUMPA
08-17-2016, 09:39 PM
Well......I had some of the Rem cases in the scrap bucket and this idea gave me another use for them. Took out a couple and trimmed them for a case length of 1.100 and sized the neck with my 357mag sizer die. According to my 40cal chamber gauge it should work fine as far as fitting in the chamber.

Now I need to come up with a load and an idea on what to use for an over shot card. I have the option of either using an over shot card or........using my notching die and make a crimp using that.

Sad thing is (or good thing) I don't own a 40cal anything to test. Making the shot loads for the 10mm would be kinda simple once I get the 40cal figured out....

Mk42gunner
08-18-2016, 12:09 AM
I have only made shot loads for a .45ACP, at least for auto loaders. I have used both .35 cal gas checks and wads cut from soda boxes for overshot wads. I think plastic cut from a coffee can lid would work fine also.

A wild guess says to try .30 cal or 8mm gaschecks, but you guys with the case in hand will have a better idea of the diameter needed.

Yet another case for possible use for the .40 or 10mm is the 10mm Magnum; but considering the cost, it is probably a wash with using converted rifle cases for those rounds.

60 grains of #12 shot doesn't sound like much; but it is two to three times what a .22LR shotshell holds, and they do okay for Mr. No Shoulders.

Robert

GRUMPA
08-18-2016, 09:58 AM
I made 2 40cal shot loads last night, of course from my scraped out Rem cases. All the dimensions are there, and I trimmed the cases to 1.120 and used my 357mag sizer to make the shoulder. I used #8 shot to start, yeah I know its a bit big but for prototype work and function testing I'm going with that. I did manage to get 95gr of #8 shot in the case, I'm using 5gr 231 with an over powder wad, the shot, and a homemade over shot card for the prototypes.

Using the Rem cases is expensive to say the least, at $1ea just for the case it's more of a novelty than anything.

A person can use 30-30 brass, that'll allow a person to make either 40cal or the 10mm shot loads. Your going to need a lathe in order to do it though, and it takes a bit of time to do. Who knows I may make a thread about it later, but first....I need to find someone with a 40cal to test them and go from there.

popper
08-18-2016, 10:06 AM
Gee, CCI makes them, 40S&W 88gr #9 in Al. case - ~$15/10. If you can find them. My interest would be for dove/pig hunting protection but for 1-2 times a year, gaiters are more useful. Especially in the cactus. Not about to try a 20ga near my feet. I did get a field mouse on the 3rd shot with the 40, has become a sport with 9mm on a friends place.

GRUMPA
08-18-2016, 10:10 AM
Gee, CCI makes them, 40S&W 88gr #9 in Al. case - ~$15/10. If you can find them.

C'mon popper.....you should know us poor folks come up with all kinds of ways to save that .05 whenever we can. Not to mention......some folks just use there time for something other than watching an idiot box....... being creative.

jmorris
08-18-2016, 10:36 AM
And no one makes them for .380.

popper
08-18-2016, 10:45 AM
The 10mm case is only 0.12" longer than 40SW so it probably would cycle but HS off the extractor. The .30 case is probably better but I have none and no machine to modify them with. Plus I'd hate to be walking back from the stand, meet a 200# sow, loaded with snake shot. Rifle would of course be slung over the back. It's a 50 yd walk through nasty stuff to the fence line where he picks me up with the Gater. I am looking for a good small high intensity green flashlight.
Would Styer or Largo brass work (for 380) with a slight neck down for HS?

GRUMPA
08-18-2016, 03:19 PM
Here's what I came up with this morning, I ended up needing to machine the entire O.D. on it to work in my gauge. I do have 62gr of #12 in the crimped shot load, and just over 70gr in the GC'd shot loads...

174665

174666

I may end up using my notching die for the 40cal stuff as well..

nekshot
08-19-2016, 11:28 AM
that 380 shot cartridge is salvation to my wandering mind!! I can and do make shot shells for our handguns but the 380 is the better hot weather gun for me and this answers how! Thanks, now I have more reason to be in shop instead of sitting on porch!!

jmorris
08-29-2016, 04:12 PM
Had an idea the other day and had a few min to see how it would work.

I took a spare Lee powder through die I had and removed the flare portion from the inside and replaced it with an insert I machined to swage the 380 case down like my 45 ACP die does.

http://i664.photobucket.com/albums/vv5/qvideo/gn/380ss/IMG_20160829_142419_241-1_zpssajcwmjd.jpg

Much faster and the crimp looks a bit better.

http://i664.photobucket.com/albums/vv5/qvideo/gn/380ss/IMG_20160829_145301_364-1_zpso2ggoyki.jpg

flysubcompact
10-17-2016, 09:50 PM
Really interesting, jmorris. Can you post a pic of spent cases?

jmorris
10-18-2016, 08:35 AM
I already loaded them back up, looks pretty much the same except the roll is blown back out a bit.

MT Chambers
10-18-2016, 02:40 PM
This is very creative and congrats on that, I just think that shot loads in the .380 would not be very effective esp. on rattlers. I think a .44 or .45 LC. would be much more effective, just sayin'.

jmorris
10-18-2016, 10:06 PM
A 12ga is even better but I don't have one that weighs 9.6 oz.

cheese1566
10-20-2016, 08:22 AM
Had an idea the other day and had a few min to see how it would work.

I took a spare Lee powder through die I had and removed the flare portion from the inside and replaced it with an insert I machined to swage the 380 case down like my 45 ACP die does.

http://i664.photobucket.com/albums/vv5/qvideo/gn/380ss/IMG_20160829_142419_241-1_zpssajcwmjd.jpg

Much faster and the crimp looks a bit better.



I like it!! Gonna go dig through my box of old dies. I am sure I have a Lee powder through in the pile. One could probably make another insert for the crimp possibly.

jmorris
10-20-2016, 10:37 AM
One could probably make another insert for the crimp possibly.

One could do that. The crimp tool I built for my 45 ACP shot loads was a sleeve that slid over a 1/2-20 bolt that I ran a ball end mill into on the lathe, to give it the concave shape.

Had I thought about it before hand I could have machined the insert so one side necked the cases down then flip the insert over and that side is the crimp.

buckshotshoey
10-20-2016, 02:46 PM
COOL! Now do one for 9mm. I had another idea. Instead of using an overshot card, bond the shot into the case using plain food grade gelatin. Once shot, the gelatin should keep the shot together a little longer out of the barrel before dispersing. Sounds crazy but might work.

jmorris
10-21-2016, 09:45 AM
I still have plenty of 9mm shot loads and generally carry a 45 ACP or LC or the 380 where I would come in contact with snakes that I would want to get rid of.

Campocaster
10-22-2016, 04:57 PM
I've been making my own 45ACP shotshell with good success. I'm experimenting with 380 shot shell and have made crimped dummy brass that cycles in my Kahr CT380, but I have not loaded any up for test fire. I've got too many projects going haha. I used 223 brass cut down and used a Lee 32ACP bullet seating die to make the neck, and a Lee 45ACP bullet seating die to crimp the top.Tested OAL lengths that cycle are .926 - .936. I learned from making 45ACP Shot shells that you got to get the headspacing right if you want reliable rounds that cycle fire every time without fail.
179249

wonderwolf
10-24-2016, 11:12 PM
Interesting, I'll have to try lathe turning some .223 for 9mm experimentals...never really considered shot loads in a 9mm before now.

Grumpa what are you using to star crimp with?

jmorris
10-25-2016, 08:23 AM
Interesting, I'll have to try lathe turning some .223 for 9mm

Might work but the .223 case is .380 size or smaller OD than 9mm.

Campocaster
11-07-2016, 08:28 AM
Might work but the .223 case is .380 size or smaller OD than 9mm.

the 380 ACP rim and 9mm rim are not close enough to be interchangeable. The .223 case is a good wildcat case for the .380ACP - but not 9mm

Theres alot of info out there on youtube (ammochannel for example) to create 45ACP shotshells and alot of people can do it, so i'd say thats a good place to start if you shoot 45 as well.Its easier to load the 45 in general and shotshells are no exception. When you got that comfortable, then just like the .380 is just a scaled down version of a 45ACP round - scale down the .380 shotshells using the same techniques as used for 45 shotshell. At least that was my approach. You dont need any tools other than a cheap hand pipe cutter, 32ACP dies, and 45ACP dies. You have to headspace the right length of the cases based on the specific gun barrel you will shoot out of for best functioning. Use old cases and sharpen with a case deburrer and use it to punch for over powder and over shot cards. I use the plastic covers of small notebooks or thick medium card stock of typical greeting cards.The cards need to fit snug to ensure uniform ignition -

jmorris
11-07-2016, 11:15 AM
You have to headspace the right length of the cases based on the specific gun barrel you will shoot out of for best functioning.

380 head spaces of the rim or in this case where the "bottle neck" is. I have not found headspace needs to be different for my shot shell loads in different pistols.

leadman
11-18-2016, 11:40 PM
jmorris, I think you are confusing the 32acp with the 380. the 32acp is "semi rimmed".

jmorris
11-19-2016, 09:52 AM
Not sure what was rattling around in my head, should read "off the mouth", then the "where the bottle neck is" part will make sense.

Campocaster
11-23-2016, 06:45 AM
Not sure what was rattling around in my head, should read "off the mouth", then the "where the bottle neck is" part will make sense.

Yes, the case will headspace now at the end of the bottleneck, so when you make the bottleneck with the 32ACP die if you create too long a bottleneck, the headspace will be off. What I meant really by 'specific gun' is use the barrel of the gun you are making the shot shells for and check the headspace of the case before going forward. If there is too much headspace you could have dangerous pressure, but more likely the issue is the round will not fire because excess headspace, it will miss the primer or be a weak primer hit. Also, make sure the length is not too long for the magazine.

Before you load up live rounds, I would make dummy rounds and get them to cycle. Also making dummy rounds will be good practice as getting the headspace right by the time you crimp can be tricky at first.

Heres what I do -

Cut .223 brass down to size - try longer at .950 to start and you can trim and crimp to size - cut too short an its scrap brass

Run cut 223 brass through 380 full size die

Chamfer the inside case mouth well, and lube the mouth

Create bottleneck with 32acp die - go slow and if you get resistance turn the case and apply pressure

Check for headspace fit and mag fit - get it right

Add powder charge

Use a scrap 223 brass and sharpen mouth with trimmer to make card punch for over powder and over shot cards

Make cards from light cardboard or plastic such as a birthday card or plastic notebook covers

Insert a tight fitting over powder card into the case

Use a dowel to carefully get the card even and level over the powder and get it over the powder firmly and tight fitting

Load shot almost to top

Place over shot card

Crimp with 45acp bullet seating die

This is all experimental, and I'm working these ideas from scaling down successful 45acp shot shell as the model.The basic OAL that cycled in my Kahr CT380 were .911 through .945. Too long for the magazine was .973. I will eventually narrow this range down quite a bit, but again still experimenting. You have to use your gun and your mags, to get reliable cycling. Just like certain guns dont like certain factory ammo yet other ammo is great - the same concept will apply here. When you crimp, try to get the mouth perfectly rounded and not squared even a little as that will effect cycling. I'm not listing any specific loads, but I would look up info on 45ACP shotshell. Many publications published and use 6 grains of W231, so use that as reference and scale down the load. I would be interested in anyone who is doing this and what their methods and results are -

jmorris
11-23-2016, 08:40 AM
What I meant really by 'specific gun' is use the barrel of the gun you are making the shot shells for and check the headspace of the case before going forward.

I used a casegauge and tried them in several different 380's. If I have a firearm that is out of spec. I fix it vs load special ammunition for it. Same thing for all of the bottleneck rounds I load.


Heres what I do -

Cut .223 brass down to size...

Add powder charge
...
Insert a tight fitting over powder card into the case

Use a dowel to carefully get the card even and level over the powder and get it over the powder firmly and tight fitting

Load shot almost to top


What powder, charge and shot size are you using?

Campocaster
11-24-2016, 11:15 PM
Using a case gauge is fine too but if you dont have one you can use the barrel. I agree with what you say about fixing a firearm out of spec, but I'm not talking about a firearm out of spec - you are basically making a wildcat cartridge so when making these, you can make the headspace correct - or incorrect in how long you make the bottleneck on the case. They say "every gun is a law unto itself" - meaning there are manufacturing tolerances that come into play to account for as well. Thats why I mentioned using the barrel of your gun so to get it more exacting. Make sure to use lead shot and not steel. I use #9 shot and W231. I'm not posting a powder charge

Campocaster
11-24-2016, 11:27 PM
I used a casegauge and tried them in several different 380's. If I have a firearm that is out of spec. I fix it vs load special ammunition for it. Same thing for all of the bottleneck rounds I load.
What powder, charge and shot size are you using?



jmorris, your methods of making these cases with a lathe are quite impressive. It is much more skill based and involved than what I'm doing, and I also dont have a lathe. I got on the idea from making 45 Shot shells. I was reading a .380 is not a smaller 9mm case, but a scaled down (78%) 45ACP case. So with that info I came up with what I'm doing. I'm still in experimental stages and thats why I dont have a definitive OAL or powder charges. I applaud your method but I dont have the tools or skill with a lathe to do what your doing.

jmorris
11-25-2016, 09:32 AM
The turned cases were just to get me going and make sure I could get them to cycle in various 380's. I then modified an extra Lee powder through die I had sitting around to swage them down.

See post 25.

jmorris
11-30-2016, 09:44 PM
Can you post a pic of spent cases?

I made some more today and had a chance to take a photo of a fired case.

Left to right, loaded converted case, converted case prior to crimp and fired case.

http://i664.photobucket.com/albums/vv5/qvideo/gn/380ss/IMG_20161130_125340_821-1_zpsm9xeiu4p.jpg

Campocaster
12-03-2016, 06:04 AM
I made some more today and had a chance to take a photo of a fired case.

Left to right, loaded converted case, converted case prior to crimp and fired case.

http://i664.photobucket.com/albums/vv5/qvideo/gn/380ss/IMG_20161130_125340_821-1_zpsm9xeiu4p.jpg

Hey jmorris those really look great! Can you post some of your details on making the cases, case lengths, powder ect? Are you getting 100% cycling? You should make a youtube vid as no one else has one... you'd be the trailblazer!

Campocaster
12-03-2016, 06:07 AM
The turned cases were just to get me going and make sure I could get them to cycle in various 380's. I then modified an extra Lee powder through die I had sitting around to swage them down.

See post 25.

So what did you do to modify the die? I've been using a 32ACP die to make the bottlenecks, but if a powder through die gets better results I'd go with that

jmorris
12-03-2016, 10:33 AM
If you have looked at my videos, you might have noticed they are all unedited and right to the point (short). This is because I live out in the sticks and the only internet I have is cellular. So a step by step video would be more difficult for me. Photos are easy though.

First thing is to take a .223 case and install into the little jig I made to cut cases to length. Lock them in place and rough cut them so there isn't that much protruding (you don't want to mess up the face of the fixture either). I then touch them to a disk sander back to the face of the fixture (brass won't spark and is easy to remove, your done if you see a spark) these are not 1000 yard benchrest loads, so this works fine and is fast. Now chamfer inside and out then lube for the next step.

Never mind the turned case that's how I did the very first ones.
http://i664.photobucket.com/albums/vv5/qvideo/gn/380ss/IMG_20160817_145519_219_zpsqjqwhubb.jpg

For forming I had a hunk of bar stock the correct OD to fit into the Lee powder through expander die (original Lee insert on right) so I drilled/reamed it to .346 ID added a decent chamfer and polished. I used nickel Winchester .223 brass because it is more resistant to scratching that regular polished brass and won't get ugly if they sit around a few years before being needed. The neck of a formed case measures .348" and after firing they are .351". The washers just take up the slop as the insert I made is shorter than the cavity in the Lee die.

http://i664.photobucket.com/albums/vv5/qvideo/gn/380ss/IMG_20161203_074257_394-1_zpsnjkzhkbh.jpg

Then punch out the over/under shot cards like this.

These are my 45 rounds but it's the same method, a punch and plastic. I also stand a short section of 2x4 up vertically so I am punching into the grain not into the side (wood is "stronger" this way and it makes for better cuts on plastics that tend to smear, like the clear stuff I ended up using).

http://i664.photobucket.com/albums/vv5/qvideo/IMG_20140324_215949_165_zps79968427.jpg

Then prime, I used old "white box" Winchester SRP because they matched the cases (nickle) and that's what was sitting on the bench at the time.

I ran up and down on the powder charge a bit before settling on 2.4 grains of N310, it was the smallest charge weight that would run 100% in the different 380's I have (I went up to 3.2 so I think it's safe but I have no lab equipment and am barely responsible for my actions so I won't assume any responsibility/liability for yours, so you might want to start low and work up for function).

Then place the under shot card in and push it down over the powder, inverted the case over my hand to make sure no powder spilled out and called it good.

Then I added #12 shot to just shy of the rim (around 61.6 grains) and placed the over shot card on. The over shot card needs to be like the one in the middle of the photo below so it's low enough to get under the rim as its rolled over.

http://i664.photobucket.com/albums/vv5/qvideo/gn/380ss/IMG_20161130_125340_821-1_zpsm9xeiu4p.jpg

I used a regular 45 ACP RN bullet seat die to form the crimp.

On the 45 ACP shot dies I made I went to a little more effort and machined a crimp die that had a central mandrel that would push down the over shot card as it crimped. It's a lot more fun to load with if you don't mind the extra work.

http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o213/jmorrismetal/reloading/45%20acp%20shotshell%20die/IMG_20140324_174317_588_zpsbb497e50.jpg

Abert Rim
01-07-2024, 11:32 AM
Bumping this old thread. jmorris, you did a fine job. Anyone have any further thoughts on shot loads for .380s? Alternatives to N310? Red Dot, Bullseye?

Charlie Horse
01-21-2024, 04:44 PM
Wow. This thread really makes me wish I had a lathe. I have no use for shot loads but they would be too much fun to not make some.

jmorris
01-23-2024, 10:55 AM
Hard to believe its been that long ago already...

From an LCP
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r6_6cYlKcso

jmorris
01-23-2024, 10:55 AM
and a PPK


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rAIcV5CR7eM