APP vs Goex in 36 cal Cap and Ball

[Ken in Iowa]

I am getting the urge to get out the front stuffers after a long hiatus. Cap lock rifles are very familiar to me, but honestly I have not fired a cap and ball revolver yet.

My pistol is a Navy Arms 1858 steel frame reproduction in great condition. I have .375 and .378 moulds with soft lead balls ready to go.

I have Goex and APP 3F powder on hand. I just need a little sage advise on which one to use and how I should handle lube and cleaning with each powder.

As I recall, my Dad simply used Crisco shortening over the top of the loaded chambers. I realize that there are many options especially today.

Thanks!

[rodwha]

Either power will work just fine with ~30 grns being a max charge. I'd venture to guess that around 15 grns plus filler would be the more accurate load. Felt wads with a lube is better than Crisco over the ball.

[alexzxz]

I use JSG which is basically APP with my 1858 44 cal. Can't say about real BP since I haven't tried it.

For cleaning, running a piece wet paper towel through it once cleans out 95% of the bore. 2nd time cleans out 99%. Cleans up everything with 3-4 passes. Of course, it's better if you run hot water from the tap through it first. Less mess. Doubt it'd be that simple with real black.

If you want to really get into cap and ball, grab a set of hollow punches from HF for about ~$8, less on sale. Only with a dollar cutting board and hammer, you can punch out hundreds of wads from any hard felt. Do note, they come uselessly dull, so will require some grinding with a dremel. Lube is really preferential, but many use a combination of tallow, paraffin and beewax.

I've been making paper cartridges and they are much easier than you'd expect. Cut a whole stack of endpapers in half, wrap each around a shaped dowel, glue, fill with a powder loader, drop in the lubed wad+ball, and you can be churning out hundreds of rounds an hour. Something like this (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=15O4yYu7i7Y), but his wad is more methodical.

[FrontierMuzzleloading]

When you use APP, COMPRESS it! It loves compression.

[bedbugbilly]

I have had one of the Pietta 1858 NMA .36 "Navy" for a number of years - it's kind of a toss up for me which I like the best - that one or my Uberti '51 Navy. Anyway . . . you'll love it! If you have the .375 and the .378 molds - try them both. My Pietta likes the .375 but it will depend on your chambers on the Navy Arms. On the .378, you'll just shear a tad more lead ring when you seat the ball.

On mine, I have found that 20 gr. of 3F gives me a good accurate load with round ball. A spent .38 special casing will throw that charge and since I load and shoot a lot of 38 special, I have a ready supply of "powder measures". LOL

You can certainly use "wonder wads" between the powder and ball . . . but Alex gives some great advice above. A 38" punch will punch a .375 wad which is perfect for the .36 caliber. I do leatherwork as a hobby so I have lots of scrap. I take leather that is approximately 1/8" thick and just sit down with a punch and a piece of 4 X 4 and start punching leather wads out on the end grain of the 4 X 4. Once I have them punched, I use a tupperware bowl and melt some of my BP lube in the microwave. Once melted, I toss the leather wads in and swirl them around so the get soaked - then pick them out and blot them between paper towel . . . set aside to cool down. I put them in an old Altoid tin and walla! A big supply of wads to use between powder and ball.

For lube, I have always used one toilet bowl ring (real beeswax) and 1 pound container of Crisco - melt together and stir and then pour into ole musket cap tins, Altoid tins, etc. I use that for greasing the cylinder pin and for greasing over the seated ball. I've been using that for over 50 years for C & B pistol as well as for greasing rifled musket minie ball bases, etc. Everyone has their own "favorite".

I warn you . . . . once you shoot a cylinder full of rounds through that Remington, you'll have a big smile on your face a mile wide! Have fun and enjoy . . and let us know how you like it! Good luck!

[Earlwb]

Either powder would work fine. The 30 grains is about max for the load, not because the gun cannot handle more, but that is all you can get into the chamber and still get a ball pressed into it. Some guys back off the powder charge slightly and use a lubed pad and then insert the ball into the chamber. But heck, I used Crisco for ages too. You smear it in on top of all the balls in the chambers and it is good to go.

Cleaning is pretty simple. I use hot soapy water, then dry and oil the gun. Black powder leaves a water soluble residue, so hot soapy water works best for the main cleaning chore. You can rinse the cylinder and barrel out and off with hot tap water. Then dry and oil it.

[blixen]

I've had the 1858 Navy and the Colt Navy in .36. Both very accurate. I loaded them with 17-18 grains of black, then--this might sound crazy--but I take a popsicle stick and scrape a small glob of a hardish grease (crisco, bees wax and olive oil) into the cylinder. (It's easier than cutting lube "pills.") Then, I lever the ball in--getting a nice lead ring.

Yes, it's a lazy approach, but it seems to work in keeping the fouling down and doesn't seem to contaminate the powder much. And it's less messy than grease over the top of the cylinder melting and spraying everywhere.

I replace the nipples with quality aftermarket ones that hold the unfired caps on and get a good ring of lead, and I've never had a chain fire.

[victorfox]

you can get a set of china punches at harbor freight and you better get a piece of 2x4 about 6" long and punch following the grain. For the .36 I think it's the 3/8 size (I only load .410 and use the 7/16). For sharpening just "roll" the edge against a cheap sharpening stone and keep rolling till you can feel a burr inside all around the inner side of the punch. Then run a rolled piece of sanpaper or emery cloth grit out inside the punch cup. It's easy...

If you 're lazy circle fly might have the wads cut the size you need.

[rodwha]

I bought the cheap Harbor Freight punches and it wouldn't cut through my felt. Too cheap to go to the effort of returning them so I still have them. Instead I bought a custom punch from a retired machinist from a traditional forum. Best $10 I've spent.

[Omnivore]

Buffalo Arms in Idaho sells a fine punch for hammering. Good hard steel, not too brittle, sharp, and provide for simple recovery of your wads. They sell a plastic punching pad that works well too (make sure you have a good, solid surface underneith - lay it on a concrete floor for example, for the best results, or a very solid, heavy benchtop). Several sizes from which to choose. I use a slightly undersized punch for making card wads and lube pills for paper cartridges (the cartridge cases being tapered for easy loading) - it makes for easier loading than using the typical, over-sized-for-caliber wads which can create a buldge in the case. If you're stuffing loose components into the chamber, go ahead and get the larger punch (.454" for 44, and .380" I think it is for 36).

See though; we're already making it complicated, and it need not be complicated! You don't really need a wad at all, for that matter, and if you want to try wads you can buy them ready-made from several sources, either dry or lubed.

The basics would be a flask with a set of spouts that throw different charges (you'll want something between about 15 grains and 25 grains for the Remington 36), some #10 (or 1075) caps most likely, some 380 or 375 ball and some kind of lube to keep the gun running (there are tons of choices there, but the more readily available are Bore Butter (gets almost "runny" in hot weather though), or Wonder Lube, or Balistol, or some kind of vegetable oil, etc., etc. and that's about it. Hot water to clean the gun, and a brass cleaning rod, a 38 caliber jag and some patches to swab the bore (go for a tight fit there, and don't use a steel rod which can damage the all-important muzzle). I use Q-Tips for cleaning the chambers under running hot water in the sink, but others have different methods. I also use some of those bristeled pipe cleaners to get into tight spots, and a toothbrush. There's no need for soap, and I'd say avoid it.

So; Black powder or a black powder substitute, a flask with spouts that throw the amounts of powder you want, caps, and balls, plus lube and cleaning tools. Take it slow, and have fun. Keep it simple so as it doesn't become a chore. You can experiment with different loads, loading techniques, cards, felt wads, lube pills, and so on once you've gotten a feel for it.

It isn't rocket science. Well...OK, it actually is rocket science, but it's very basic rocket science.

[Ken in Iowa]

Thanks for all of your thoughts. I'm anxious to trying it out.