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Wardo1974
08-09-2016, 04:18 PM
Hello,

I recently acquired a Winchester model 1886 from the year 1891. It's a .45-70 in excellent mechanical condition. It's not a "glass case" collector, as it's been hunted over the years, so in that sense I don't mind using it.

What does concern me though is that it's a black powder era rifle that's 125 years old.

I wanted to take it deer hunting, and I don't want to blow the gun up for my troubles.

I basically had thought of using my standard RCBS 405 grain lead boolit over the starting load of H4895 in the "trapdoor" section of the Hodgdon website. 40 grains, which is stated to be 1424 fps at 14,900 CUP.

Maybe I'm being overcareful about this, but - this load is fine, right? It's a trapdoor load, and this is an 1886. How high should things be pushed with this old beast? I basically picked the 4895 load as it seems to offer the most velocity at the lowest pressure.

Any thoughts are appreciated.

rintinglen
08-09-2016, 04:32 PM
You should be fine. Given the age of the gun, I wouldn't exceed the trap-door level loads, but anything in that range should be good. And it will kill a deer as dead as any new magnum.

1Hawkeye
08-09-2016, 04:43 PM
Anything for a trapdoor should be fine.
All though any bullets over 500 grains may not function through the magazine
Because of their length.

curator
08-09-2016, 04:58 PM
The 1886 Winchester should be able to handle "Marlin level" loads or about 35,000 CUP. Despite the 1886 being on the heavy side, these powerful loads are no fun to shoot. Keep in mind that 1890-period .45-70 military loads developed 18,000 to 22,000 CUP, and that rifle was designed to shoot them. The official "smokeless powder" .45 US Government cartridge shot a 500 grain bullet at 1450 fps. The charge was 40 grains of a new DuPont double base powder that eventually was labeled IMR3031. Your load sounds like the right direction to take.

The 1886 action is pretty stout and the nickle steel they were made from is quite resilient. Most 1886s that have headspace problems it is from wear, not bolt set-back from high pressure. The three 1886s I have had the pleasure to own all had somewhat oversize bores and commercial bullet moulds were a bit undersize for most accurate shooting. My .45-70 needed .461 diameter bullets to hit point on after 25 yards, smaller sizes hitting sideways. At least this size bullet would chamber in the rifle when loaded in Winchester brass. Both my .40-82 and my .40-65 had groove diameters closer to .415 instead of the common bullet diameter of .408-.410. Neither of the .40s would chamber a cartridge with the groove diameter bullet seated in it. Needless to say, accuracy was barely adequate. I love the '86 Winnie! A friend has one in .45-90, but he never shoots it, and won't part with it either.

Wardo1974
08-09-2016, 05:06 PM
Thanks curator. You say "nickel steel" - didn't that come later than 1891 though?

I know that the rifle was made to handle up to 22,000 CUP rounds, but this was also a long time ago, so I was concerned for the metal being fatigued.

runfiverun
08-09-2016, 07:27 PM
your perfectly fine with your load.
I shoot the newer browning made version and I limit a 435 to 1600 fps, using 2400.
I could probably push a bit more but I don't like the recoil.
I wouldn't hesitate to smack an ELK or a Moose with either your or my rifle, I doubt a deer would even slow the boolit down much.

W.R.Buchanan
08-11-2016, 01:03 PM
Really there is no need to push that gun above about 1300 fps with those boolits. As stated above the faster you push it the harder it will it will push back and that gets old pretty fast.

Also everything on earth was killed with a 45-70 before 1900 so I think Govt level loads will be safe.

I'd also like to tout the virtue of some lighter boolits like RCBS .45-300FN, which drops at about 325 gr from WW's. I use this boolit in my Marlin 1895CB for Cowboy Silhouette and I assure you it knocks those targets down with authority and will do the same thing on anything you might choose to shoot with your gun as well.

It is pointless to shoot a deer sized animal with a 400 or 500 gr boolit when a 300 will go right thru the thing and bury itself in the dirt beyond. The only difference is the 400 or 500 gr boolit will bury itself a little deeper in the dirt.

At a given velocity a 400 gr boolit will generate 25% more recoil than a 300 gr boolit, and the 500 gr is 40% more.

Most all of us can take a recoil hit once or twice. However you still need learn how to shoot the gun before you go hunting with it, and that takes lots of shots and ammo.

My baseline for boolit penetration on animals has been a quote from Brian Pearce stating that "a 250 gr .44 Special Boolit fired from a Revolver will go completely thru an elk at 900 fps." Obvious more weight and more velocity will too.:holysheep

For the sake of self preservation I'd look at some lighter boolits and lower velocities and work up from there. you will have to learn to shoot this gun.

My .45-70 is the only gun I have that I had to chase a load for. Most times I get it right on the first or second try.

I started out at 25 gr of 5744 with the RCBS boolit which was about 1300 fps. The load had a pretty significant trajectory and was not usable for my silhouette game, so I bumped it up 2 gr at a whack until the gun performed right.

That finally happened at 33 gr and 1550 fps. The recoil was a little more peppy than the 25 gr load but after a recoil reducer was installed which increased the weight of the gun to 8 lbs. the gun became very shootable. I might add that my standard usage of this gun is to shoot 40 rounds over an hour or so in my Silhouette Shoot, and I can do that without any after effects. The gun also has a 1" think Recoil pad on it.

I have every confidence that this load will knock down an Elk or a Moose with no problem. The .45-90 cartridge used a 300 gr boolit at around 1800 fps and it was effective 100 years ago.

Your gun probably weighs about 9 lbs. and it also probably has one of those curved steel butt plates which are brutal. I would suggest one of the Limbsaver Slip On Recoil Pads. Walmart has them for $20 and they are well worth twice that,,, and coincidentally MSRP is $39.95!

So I would expand your search for a load that the gun will take,,, and that you will be able to take as well.

It doesn't matter what the gun will take,,,, if you can't shoot it.

Randy

Ballistics in Scotland
08-11-2016, 02:23 PM
The 1886 Winchester should be able to handle "Marlin level" loads or about 35,000 CUP. Despite the 1886 being on the heavy side, these powerful loads are no fun to shoot. Keep in mind that 1890-period .45-70 military loads developed 18,000 to 22,000 CUP, and that rifle was designed to shoot them. The official "smokeless powder" .45 US Government cartridge shot a 500 grain bullet at 1450 fps. The charge was 40 grains of a new DuPont double base powder that eventually was labeled IMR3031. Your load sounds like the right direction to take.

The 1886 action is pretty stout and the nickle steel they were made from is quite resilient. Most 1886s that have headspace problems it is from wear, not bolt set-back from high pressure. The three 1886s I have had the pleasure to own all had somewhat oversize bores and commercial bullet moulds were a bit undersize for most accurate shooting. My .45-70 needed .461 diameter bullets to hit point on after 25 yards, smaller sizes hitting sideways. At least this size bullet would chamber in the rifle when loaded in Winchester brass. Both my .40-82 and my .40-65 had groove diameters closer to .415 instead of the common bullet diameter of .408-.410. Neither of the .40s would chamber a cartridge with the groove diameter bullet seated in it. Needless to say, accuracy was barely adequate. I love the '86 Winnie! A friend has one in .45-90, but he never shoots it, and won't part with it either.

I think you are about right on the capabilities of an 86 which hasn't been impaired in some way. You can exceed trapdoor level loads, although trajectory is the main reason to do so. But you are also right in saying you don't need all of its performance for deer, and would feel the worse for recoil. That might have some point with grizzly, buffalo or perhaps even elk, for that revolver-velocity .44 won't go through an elk for all conceivable angles, and might not shatter bone the way you could need.

It is true that the action of such an early 86 is very unlikely to be nickel steel. It wasn't available even for the barrels of the first 94 (hence only .32-40 and .38-55 being available), and in my 1899 catalogue only the extra light .45-70 86 has a nickel steel barrel. But I know of no great record of metal fatigue fracture in case-hardened carbon steel 86 receivers.

I can heartily recommend Clyde Williamson's "The Winchester Lever Legacy", a huge book which, beneath its folksy style, conceals an exhaustive process of load development and testing with rifles of this age. Some loads he suggests for the .45-70 86 are:
Winchester 405gr., 38gr. 3031, 1312ft./sec.
Barnes 300gr., 60gr. 3031 1925ft./sec.
Barnes 400gr., 58gr. 3031 1977ft./sec. (It is possible he transposes the velocities of the Barnes loads.)
Hornady 500gr., 53gr. 3031 1775ft./sec.

Williamson tells us that for a brief period Winchester brought out their own smokeless loads, designed by the elder W. Merton Robinson, which came extremely close to his. I think the main motive for their being discontinued wasn't so much pressure, as an attempt to sell more 94 and 92 Winchesters, which did indeed far outsell the 86.

My own 86, with a barrel which although not pitted and close to the published groove diameter of .406in., is well worn. I haven't shot it much, but got 5in. groups with a Lyman tang sights, 260gr. cast bullets and 38gr. of Reloder 27, although Williamson recommends 29gr. of the faster 4198 for lead, and 50gr. of 3031 for 20gr. jacketed. He experimented with up to 60gr. in a condemned rifle, and found no measurable change in brass or steel which the lighter loads didn't produce.

For those with a .45-90 rifle, there isn't much need for substantial changes to .45-70 powder charges, but the rifling twist must be checked. The .45-70 generallyhas a 16in. or 20in. twist, the former being amply fast for any bullet you are likely to use, aand the latter perhaps not quite so good, but adequate. The same is true of the 20in.post-1900 .45-90. Earlier .45-90 rifles were 32in.,precluding the use of bullets over about 330 gr.

I made one or two 5in. groups in comfort from my worn but unpitted barrel, with a modern Lyman tang sight and 38gr. of Reloder 7, although Williamson’s best loads were 29gr. of the faster 4198 for lead, and 50gr. of 3031 for jacketed.

Ballistics in Scotland
08-11-2016, 02:32 PM
Your gun probably weighs about 9 lbs. and it also probably has one of those curved steel butt plates which are brutal. I would suggest one of the Limbsaver Slip On Recoil Pads. Walmart has them for $20 and they are well worth twice that,,, and coincidentally MSRP is $39.95!


You are right about the crescent buttplate. The less common shotgun buttplate is far better, if you have a choice of rifles. But with the crescent shape and a space under a flatter slip-on pad, you may allow the rifle an inch or so of free movement before it has to accelerate your torso as well. That will greatly increase the recoil. Filling the space with silicon rubber should prevent that.

Wardo1974
08-11-2016, 08:12 PM
You fellows have given me some good feedback. I feel considerably relieved about the strength of the rifle. It's in very sound, tight mechanical condition, so I think I should be fine.

With regard to the loads, I was asking about how hot I could go just so I could understand my margin of safety. I have zero desire to magnumize this old gal; it's just nice to know what it can handle so I know that whatever I put through it, I can be secure with the knowledge I'm not pushing things. I'm well aware 1200 fps or so would be all I need. Given the age of the rifle, what would you say is the limit I should never exceed? I read a lot of conflicting opinion about this.

On the subject of recoil and the steel buttplate, I have no concerns. I am a good-sized man with large shoulders, and recoil doesn't bother me. I also have a Browning 1886 with the same crescent buttplate. My load out of it has been 35 grains of IMR 4198 beneath a 405 grain boolit, and I can blast that load all day as fast as I can crank the lever.

I wanted to stick with loads with this boolit basically because I have a couple thousand of them. 300 grainers do appeal to me down the road, and I know they will certainly take out a deer should the opportunity arise. Since I have lots of the big lads though, I'll use them for now.

Shiloh
08-13-2016, 09:59 AM
My buddy uses Unique in his 1886 trap door. I'll ask.

Shiloh

MARCORVET
08-25-2016, 01:45 PM
I load for my 1873 trapdoor with FFg. 65 grains by volume is a compressed load. After about 5 or 6 of these, you think you have been shoulder firing an 81mm mortar. Never tried smokeless in it. Good Luck with it. Midway USA sells a shoulder pad for heavy recoil weapons.

Geezer in NH
08-25-2016, 03:47 PM
Someone needs to read Ken Waters books. Follow his recommendations and you will have no problem.

Char-Gar
08-25-2016, 05:06 PM
There is some good information on this thread and some not so good information. There are Winchester 86s and Winchester 86s and they are not the same strength. The earlier ones used softer steel in the barrels and I have known them to come apart with "Marlin level loads". I saw it once with my own eyes. The the receiver above the chamber and the chamber itself just lifted up and went skyward. Nobody was hurt but the shooter was pretty shook up. He shot about 500 hot loads in the rifle before it said "enough" and rolled snake eyes. The fact that a rifle didn't blow up on the first round doesn't mean jack. Mistreat a rifle long enough and there will be a price to pay.

If the barrel says "Nickle Steel", it will take higher pressures and that was the kind of rifle Keith used for his souped up loads. If it does not say "Nickle Steel", stick to black powder pressure load, i.e. those safe in a good Trapdoor Springfield.

I have shot quite a few deer with a Winchester 86 in 45-70 many years ago with cast bullets going 1,400 fps or thereabouts. They killed deer grave yard dead. Lets not forget the great Buffalo herds were hunted to near extinction with rifles and loads not much different.

dubber123
08-25-2016, 05:45 PM
Even Trapdoor level loads with smokeless can handily beat the ballistic performance of the original BP loads, and do so at a very low pressure. Look up some of the Hodgdon H4198 loads for the Trapdoor. 470+ grain boolits at near 1,500 fps with less than Trapdoor pressures. I have been using these loads with complete satisfaction in my old clapped out Springfield. I would love an '86 such as yours. Have fun. :)

Premod70
08-25-2016, 07:20 PM
Try the Lyman HP 325 grain (Gould) bullet at under 1400 fps. Do not run this bullet fast and use soft lead, the results will amaze you.

Wayne Smith
08-26-2016, 07:51 AM
And, not yet mentioned but you may know this, with that old steel only use lead boolits. It wears fast when you use those condom things.

ascast
08-26-2016, 08:36 PM
And, not yet mentioned but you may know this, with that old steel only use lead boolits. It wears fast when you use those condom things.

ditto that AND keep your extra ammo in a zip lock bag when hunting. Your pockets are full of gritty **** you don't want in the barrel.

have fun

Wardo1974
09-05-2016, 05:25 PM
Thanks for the feedback, everyone. A few things:

1.) I read Ken Waters' two articles on the .45-70, and he admonished to go easy on the old Winchesters, despite the strong design. The design can handle the loads, but the steel can't.

2.) I have a Marlin 1895 (modern) and there is no chance I'd put any of the loads I use in this gun through the 1886, and I have zero desire to watch the top of the rifle lift off after using it!

3.) I'm growing in confidence with the various trapdoor loads; I think I'll be well served with them. As a poster noted, there's a lot of good looking 1500 fps loads in the Trapdoor section with 400 grain boolits that would hammer a deer, or anything else I use it on. I feel no need to exceed that, and I'll stick with this range with 3031, 4198, or 4895.

4.) I know the Ziploc bag trick, but I've been using powdercoated boolits the past 2 years and discovered they work fantastic for my needs. No bag needed - or lube.

I'm lucky to have this rifle and intend to post up some pictures.

4.)

Wardo1974
10-29-2016, 08:35 AM
Well, for those interested, I finally loaded some rounds for this old 1886.

40 grains of H4895 behind a pure lead 415-grain boolit sized to .460. Remington cases, CCI primers.

According to the Hogdon website, this was the lowest pressure load available, 14,900 CUP, which was what attracted me to it. Supposedly 1450 fps, which is more than enough for me.

Shooting this round yesterday was a pure pleasure. I guess recoil and noise isn't any sort of reliable pressure indicator, but this load felt like a popgun to me. It grouped very well for me (nothing scientific - a 2" group standing offhand at about 30 yards in the backyard, so I would say this is "minute of deer" accuracy).

The action on this rifle locks up like a safe, very tight with no play whatsoever, so I am feeling safe with this load and it will accompany me for this deer season.

My only complaint about it is that it left a lot of powder residue in the bore. And the cases themselves came out quite dirty - my guess is that the pressure is so low with these that the gases were able to back up over the case and soil them with soot.

Given the above, does anyone think I should incrementally increase the load until such point that I have no more sooty cases (and maybe less powder residue), or just accept it as-is for this old rifle and call it a day?

dubber123
10-29-2016, 09:36 AM
I have been very happy with how clean the Trapdoor level loads using H4198 have been for me. If you wish to stick with your current powder, the only thing that will clean it up is increasing the charge and therefore the pressure. 14,000 Psi doesn't make a lot of powders very happy as far as a complete burn. I'm glad you got the old girl up and running again.