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osteodoc08
08-06-2016, 11:59 AM
I'm missing a long range rifle from my collection and would genuinely like to begin to shoot longer ranges. I've looked at all types of rifles and calibers. I'm not particularly recoil shy, but don't want to subject myself to unnecessary abuse. My goal is to make a decent long range gun where I can hit filled gallon milk jugs/steel/reactive targets for fun. Is also like to put it to paper. No competitions, just myself.

Ive looked at the following cartridges:
6.5 Creedmoor
6.5 X 284 Lapua
260 Remington
280 AI
7mm Rem Mag
308 Win
300 Win Mag

i also have a 7mm STW built on a Mauser action my late father had built but I'd like to leave it as is and hunt with it from time to time.

Looking at the BC of the Amax bullets it seems the 162gr 7mm bullets hold a slight edge. Even the 7mm-08 holds the same or more velocity than the Creedmoor with the 162gr AMaxs but I don't hear of it being a purpose built long range cartridge set up, but on paper, beats in velocity and BC.

Component selection is a requirement for brass and bullets.

Ive looked at the Remington Sendero line, Savage target line, Kimber target line and most recently a Masterpiece Arms chassis system (approx $2500) that has a 3/8" at 100yd guarantee and seems really nice.

What does everyone recommend as far as caliber selection and launching platform.

toallmy
08-06-2016, 12:10 PM
300 win mag , case capacity , bullet selection . Spend all you can on seeing what your trying to hit . But it's my favorite cartridge anyway .

jcren
08-06-2016, 12:16 PM
30-06. More capacity than 308, less recoil than full mag loads.

toallmy
08-06-2016, 12:20 PM
Good call on the 3006 often overlooked .

rockrat
08-06-2016, 12:25 PM
260rem, 6.5 creedmoor (better barrel life than the 6.5x284--its falling out of favor nowadays I hear)or 280AI ,of your list. 284win is coming in vogue due to the high BC bullets now available. Another is the 6.5 Swede. Same good bullet bc and between the 260 and 6.5-06. I would lean towards the first two, 260 or 6.5 cr.

Savage Target line (easy caliber swaps) or a worked over 700rem.

Someone over at 6mmbr.com has a Savage in 260rem for sale. Kreiger barrel($$$) on it. F-tr class gun. Might be perfect for your wants.

lefty o
08-06-2016, 04:16 PM
any of them listed in the OP will shoot well past 1000yds. what do you want to do with it out there? paper,p dogs etc? how much powder do you really wanna burn, and how much recoil do you want to deal with. best investment for reaching out there is high quality optics.

osteodoc08
08-06-2016, 04:20 PM
any of them listed in the OP will shoot well past 1000yds. what do you want to do with it out there? paper,p dogs etc? how much powder do you really wanna burn, and how much recoil do you want to deal with. best investment for reaching out there is high quality optics.

Mostly paper and reactive targets like steel, water filled bottles, crows.......

a Leupold LRT 4 or higher end Vortex will be used on this project.

sghart3578
08-06-2016, 05:25 PM
30-06. More capacity than 308, less recoil than full mag loads.


I agree. The 30-06 is too often ignored and is a wonderful long range caliber.

lefty o
08-06-2016, 06:00 PM
Mostly paper and reactive targets like steel, water filled bottles, crows.......

a Leupold LRT 4 or higher end Vortex will be used on this project.
id be leaning hard for the 260rem then. easy to load, shoots well, just doesnt get the magazine ink.

M-Tecs
08-06-2016, 06:10 PM
6mm Dasher. http://www.6mmbr.com/schatz1000.html

Tnfalconer
08-06-2016, 06:20 PM
Since the 6.5-284 is one of my favorites and won MANY 1,000 yrd matches with it, I would normally recommend it. It can be finicky to load and really doesn't shine until you kick it up to about 3,000 fps. Like was mentioned before, that burns barrels.

Bang for the buck, factory loading and support as well as proven accuracy and velocity....It's gotta be 300wm. There are a tremendous amount of great bullets out there, reloading is as cheap as anything and it will take meat as well as paper at those ranges. Some of the smaller calibers are great rounds but lack the energy to do more than punch holes in paper at a grand. You'll be surprised how much you can really whittle that round into a smoking hot performer.

elysianfield
08-06-2016, 06:21 PM
I would recommend any caliber 7mm or larger that can be found in an older Remington 700 Heavy Barrel Varmint rifle...I've owned many, and none would not keep 1/2" MOA or better at 100 yards... Look for one manufactured before 1990, they will be found in the $500 M/L range. I've never been disappointed with the earlier Remington HBV's.

Bird
08-06-2016, 08:09 PM
Don't forget the 7mm-08. Good out to 1300 to 1400 yds maybe.

MT Chambers
08-06-2016, 09:20 PM
45/70, 45/90, 45/100, .44/90. and alot of black powder.

Baja_Traveler
08-06-2016, 09:33 PM
Well, if you have any high power rifle silhouette matches in your area, you are in for a real treat (and an addiction). But stay away from any Magnum cartridge, as most ranges don't allow them due to target damage. Personally, I think any of the 6.5 cartridges are the best bet, but our local range has more than one 6 dasher that excels at long range...

Doc Highwall
08-06-2016, 09:39 PM
I say the 6.5 Creedmoor or the 260 Remington. Another one not mentioned is the standard 6mmBr with a quick twist to shoot the 105-108 grain bullets.

Artful
08-06-2016, 10:35 PM
Well, I use 243 Win for non-windy conditions - 308 when the wind is being pushy - but I'll be getting set up in 300 Win Mag for this winter. Some in our group shooting 1000 yards are using other calibers like 6.5 Creedmore and .30'06 with good success. To be honest it's more about reading range conditions and knowing the ballistic's of your load than the Caliber.

country gent
08-06-2016, 10:43 PM
I used a 243 with 1-7 twist and 105 grn JLKs or 107 sierras for 1000 yd matches with good results on target Barrel life wasnt so great. Dont over look the 308 with good bullets A 175 grn vld in 308 does real well out to 1000. The 7mm make a good standing also but can be finicky at times.One I would look at is the 7mm wsm or even the wssm. The short fat powder column makes for consistancy and a good vld bullet will carry velocity a long ways. As to a rifle for this shooting look for a heavier rifle 13-16lbs holds alot better and dampens alot of recoil when shooting prone. I have seen 1000 yd yard guns as heavy as 20 lbs for prone shooting. The bullet used is probably as important as actual caliber here. The comes reading wind, knowing drops and settings. Hitting at 1000yds is alot of things

tygar
08-06-2016, 11:06 PM
The 30 mags were the go to cartridge until a few years age, then people were going to the 6.5s, now its the 6mm. (recently set 1k record)

I was recently discussing making a Creedmoor 6.5 or 6mm with Jeff Walker & Boyd Carpenter (top shooters) & Jeff makes LR rifles & they both said the 6mm is really kicking it. (have 2 heavy guns & one light gun in the 30 mags if you want a dedicated 1k gun)

But, if you want a LR hunting rifle (target also but w/o heavy brl), I asked Jeff to make me a 6.5-06 that will shot 1moa or better at 500 that is under 8#s. It shoots 2" @ 500. Havn't shot it farther as it's to dam hot to shoot in the tactical match (to 1100) that we have.

I also have 2 sniper/Fclass rifles in 308 & 6.5-284 & both shoot 9 ring or better at 1k.

So you can get a lot of different calibers that will do that 500-1K but you need to pay for it & have it done right. Also, ALL the above have Nightforce scopes. You can spend a ton, but without the top of the line scope your not going to get er done. (the cheap way to go is one of the Savage LR rifles with a good scope)

None of the 7mms seem to be used all that much although they were tried a while back.

Lots of choices on what to make. Decide exactly what you want & then get it. I personally like 6.5s & 30s for versatility in hunting & target.

By the way, 100yd groups are meaningless except to get zeroed. Once you have it hitting the spot at 100, run it up 6 to 10 moa, depending on caliber & speed, then go to 500. If its not .5 moa at 500 it's not a LR rifle.

Scharfschuetze
08-07-2016, 12:08 AM
1. When considering a long range rifle, you'll want to consider barrel life too. The hot sub 7mm calibres and 300 magnums can burn out a throat and thus the rifle's accuracy pretty fast. A good match barrel or sniper rifle in 308/7.62 NATO is often accurate at long range past 4,000 rounds. On the other hand, our Mk 13 SWCs in 300 Winchester Magnum were scheduled for barrel replacement at something like 1,400 rounds. The Navy boys replaced their barrels at less than 1,000 rounds.

2. Long range bullet design is well established now with many very low drag designs (VLD) as well as the traditional Sierra Match Kings and Hornady designs. Long and slippery bullets are de rigueur and of course they are heavy for their diameter. Given that, you'll want to buy a barrel with an adequate twist for the calibre you decide on.

3. Transonic air flow over a projectile as it slows from its supersonic flight will often open up groups significantly. Due to that, you'll want to keep your rounds supersonic all the way to the target. The 7.62 NATO/308 has trouble with this at 1,000 yards, but the 175 grain SMK will do it in conjuction with the 308. The 30/06 will keep 190 grain SMKs supersonic past 1,000 yards and also suffer less wind deflection at extended ranges.

4. The 6.5 calibre (.264") is a favorite for several reasons. A good bullet selection is available and bore life is reasonably good in the smaller case designs like the 260 Remington and the 6.5 Creedmore. Recoil is much less than the 30 calibres. The 6.5/284, while perennially in the winning circles, is pretty hard on barrels.

5. The 6mm rounds were popular in the 80s, but barrel life was always an issue from what other competitors told me. Apparently the 6mm bore diameter is making a comeback. A gunsmith friend of mine who makes a pretty penny making long range rifles tells me that his favorite as well as his best selling long range round is the 6mm XC.

6. Scopes or iron sights. I've never shot a Palma match or a long range match with a scope, but I've use scopes extensively in the service. Personally, I have more fun shooting at long range with iron sights, but you'll need one with lots of elevation adjustment. Lots on the market, but I've always liked the Redfield International rear sight with 1/4 MOA clicks. For scopes I've always liked the 30mm tube Leopold scopes with a mil dot reticle. I never did come to any meaningful relationship with the Nightforce scope that I used, but almost all of my compadres did.

7. As noted in the previous post, an accurate long range rifle can get spendy, but the precision it offers is well worth the expense. The best barrels are expensive and good gunsmithing is pricey. The best rounds at 1,000 yards are often the hardest on the barrel so factor that into your budget.

8. Don't overlook the .223 Remington. A good .223 bolt rifle using 77 or 80 grain match bullets will more than satisfy your needs and not cost you an arm and leg if you start with a good Winchester, Savage or Remington varmint rifle design. Make sure it has a 1 in 7 twist for the heavy-for-bore bullets. The 1 in 9" twist in most of them will start to get challenged with any bullet over 75 grains although they handle a wider range of varmint bullets well. Just shot a bunch of prairie dogs last month with a Winchester Model 70 varmint rifle with a 1 in 9" barrel. Very good performance out to the mid ranges with the Hornady 60 grain varmint bullet. This particular rifle has been squared and blueprinted, barrel set back and rechambered with a tight chamber. It's built up to use as either a varmint rifle with a scope or a National Match rifle sans the scope, but with iron sights and a clip guide. You can see the front sight base on the muzzle for a Redfield match front sight and the hand stop for slinged up position shooting.

Frank46
08-07-2016, 12:42 AM
While my LR experience is nil I keep wondering about using the 6.5x55 Swedish Mauser cartridge for long range. And wondering why it never found use. Frank

Scharfschuetze
08-07-2016, 01:10 AM
While my LR experience is nil I keep wondering about using the 6.5x55 Swedish Mauser cartridge for long range. And wondering why it never found use. Frank

Frank,

I've shot the military Sweeds out through 600 yards with both the original round nose military bullets and the later military spitzer bullets. They shoot very well, but the lack of windage adjustment on the Model 95's rear sight can challenge you when it gets windy in the afternoon. Ballistically though, it's a great cartridge and would certainly satisfy the OPs needs.

In a well built rifle with good sights, it would really do well; but I think that it's pretty much a niche round in the US for most shooters other than service rifle collectors.

toallmy
08-07-2016, 10:14 AM
I don't want to stop you from building a new rifle , but their is a good chance you already have something in the safe that can be tuned in to handle some long shooting , you probably won't win a match but may surprise yourself . A few years ago I was talking with a good friend , and I said I want to build me a 1000 yard rifle and he walked over to the wall and picked up a savage 110 he had picked up form a fellow that discovered he did not care for recoil . Then he said spend the money on seeing what your shooting at , put the rest in components and brass . Now I'm not finished with the project yet but I have learned allot .

Doc Highwall
08-07-2016, 11:28 AM
I have shot my 223 with 80 grain bullets to 1000 yards and have done well, but by going up to 6mm you can get bullets with a much greater B.C.. It has been mention about using the 6XC cartridge and it is a great one for what it does, along with greater barrel life over the 243 Winchester. I have one on a CG Millennium action with a 30" barrel. I also have the 6mm Br. in both rifle and handgun, and they do well also.

A long time ago a friend mentioned that when he was in the Marines shooting long range, that the biggest mistake he made was going to a 300 Winchester mag over the 308 Winchester for less wind drift, the increased recoil did not help his shooting, and that he would have been better off just learning to read the wind.

If you really want to improve your long range shooting, shoot small-bore and learn how to really follow through on your shots, and improve your wind reading skills at the same time.

What I like about the 6mm Br is good brass from Lapua is easy to get and there are plenty of great bullets 100 plus grains to choose from and lots of loads for them. Barrel life is great, and will out shoot a lot of other cartridges while using less powder.

tygar
08-07-2016, 02:58 PM
What Scharfe says is true but with the heavy, long barrels on the 1k guns, when you shoot out the throat & can't seat further out, just cut some off & re-chamber. Most good barrels can be just as accurate the 2nd time around. Same thing on the crown, just cut & re-crown.

My "heavy" heavy rifle started life as 34" or so & as a 300wby (if I remember correctly) when it won the nationals in the late 90s. It's now about 31" & a 300WSM & is still shooting good.

I also strongly agree with the 308. Mine is basically the Marine Corps R700 sniper gun used until recently. It's almost as good as my BR guns to 500 & like I said 9 ring avg at 1k. 24" HB, nightforce & weighs around 12 or 13#s. 175 Bergers w/43.5-44.5 RL15. I can't even guess how many rounds I have thru it but I know at least 4 boxes of 500 & my bullets are seated almost where they were when I started.

I am strongly considering changing up on my "medium" heavy gun. It is the twin of the 1k winner a few years ago, Batt action, 300 WinMag, done by Clay Spenser & it came with an extra barrel in 6 Dasher. So just for grins, think I may have Jeff Walker re-chamber to 6 Creedmoor & screw it on & see what it does. (unless someone wants to pay me a butt load of $ & take it off my hands) lol

As for barrel life, I just count it as a cost of doing business. If you pick one that eats throats figure 1k rounds & accuracy starts decreasing m/l. I do have over 1k rounds thru my 6.5-284 & so far, no decrease, but if it does, set it back & clean it up.

I also like the 5.56, but even with my LR AR, 26" HB, sub MOA out to 600 is about all I can do, & if its gusty, forget it. That bullet bounces around like a BB in a beer can.

Go to some match, both BR & tacticals & see what guys are shooting & what floats your boat.

I really like a light hunting rifle, less than 8#s that can do .5-1 MOA at 500, thats why my 308 only goes as far as the range. 13# F class guns are too heavy for an old guy like me to hump very far.

30calflash
08-07-2016, 03:16 PM
Always thought a 6.5-06 would make for a good LR rifle. Easy to make cases, without the belt, adequate case capacity, much available in the way of good bullets.

osteodoc08
08-07-2016, 05:07 PM
Looked at a few options today. On the lower end was a Savage Model 10T in 6.5 Creedmoor ($600), looked at a Remington Long Range ($700), a Remington Sendero in 300 WM ($1300) and a Masterpiece Arms BA chassis gun ($2500). Obviously the Savage 10T and Remington Long Range are definitely capable and would leave money for really good glass and plenty for components.

Someone mentioned using something I already have.

Possible candidates include my Stag Super Varminter that I could experiment with 75gr AMaxs and see how they do to 500-600 and get range and trigger time in. I have my recently acquired Kimber Longmaster in 308. My Kimber Varminter in 22-250 is also a consideration but it's 1:14 handicaps me for the heavier bullets. A heavy barreled Sako A3 in 25-06 but the BC of those bullets aren't as high as the other calibers.

fordwannabe
08-09-2016, 10:14 PM
This what I did. I bought a regular old Savage 300 win mag with a detachable mag, and accu trigger, for less than $500. Sent it to a guy in Idaho for a kickin muzzle brake. Spent my money on a EGW base, Warne rings, good Vortex scope an extra mag and reloading components. I have the same money out as a higher end rifle but have a solid setup between my scope and my rifle, and extra ammobto practice. You asked my opinion so there it is.Tom

country gent
08-09-2016, 11:28 PM
ANother nice addition if dedicated long range rifle is to find a solid scope base with 20 mins elevation built into it. This keeps the reticle centered closer at long range and gives a better "view" thru the scope. It also allows for more up elevation where you need it. Draw back is the rifle may not zero at 100 or 200yds. A tall target may be needed to shoot at the bull and hit above it. The Savage should do good for what you want to do. If not barrel swaps are easy on them. A plus to the savage is this feature also. You could have a rifle with swap barrels.

tygar
08-09-2016, 11:38 PM
Your looking at the Savages is the way to go if you don't want to build one. For the accuracy, they are very inexpensive.

You can get the SAV 16FCSS 300WSM 24" DBM at 6.75# at $700, or the SAV 12VLP 308 26" at $850 & 10#s. Some even 11 or 12 #s.

Or, some up to $1700 or more & all in the calibers that will do the job from 6.5 - 300WinMag.

Just remember the scope needs to look a fly in the eye at 1k. Let us know which way u go.

Frank46
08-09-2016, 11:38 PM
What with all the newer calibers or cartridges that have come out in the last few years a Sierra 175 grain match king will easily stay supersonic @1000yds. yeah were talking about the 30-06. Which was shooting at paper for almost 100 years. Good model 70 action with a tuned trigger and a sniper stock instead of the old marksman stock and good optics and you should go. Always did like the model 70 action. Little harder to bed than a model 700 But well worth the effort. I've had two pre'64 model 70's match rifles in 30-06 and may be old fashioned but after shooting mucho rounds down range I've come to the conclusion that it is the way to go. I have a post '64 model 70 match rifle in 30-06 and while I cannot see the iron sights as well as I used to with good optics should get the job done. And for whatever reason I've always found it easier to get a good accurate load developed for the '06 than the 308. Frank

B. Lumpkin
08-10-2016, 09:50 AM
The lowly 308 with a 175gr SMK going 2550+ FP will get you to 1,000 yards accurately and easily. Available components, easy on the barrel, easy on the shoulder. The savage target rifle have more than enough accuracy to get you there as well. Buy one, shoot the barrel out, then invest in a top shelf barrel.

Mauser48
08-10-2016, 01:16 PM
Tikka t3 in 260 remington with a burris xtr ii.

liliysdad
08-10-2016, 09:04 PM
The lowly 308 with a 175gr SMK going 2550+ FP will get you to 1,000 yards accurately and easily. Available components, easy on the barrel, easy on the shoulder. The savage target rifle have more than enough accuracy to get you there as well. Buy one, shoot the barrel out, then invest in a top shelf barrel.

Sure, the 308 will "get there," but once you delve into the world of 6 and 6.5 and high BC bullets...the 308 suddenly become tiresome and frustrating. Much like a 66 Chevy will "get you there," a new pickup will do it a lot better, faster, and more efficiently.

B. Lumpkin
08-11-2016, 11:07 AM
Yes, the 6.5 and 6mm will get you there faster, with less drop, less drift, and less barrel life.

liliysdad
08-11-2016, 11:38 AM
Yes barrel life is reduced...but barrels are a consumable just like brass and bullets.

I expect to see about 1500-1750 rounds through my current .243AI tube, then another 500-750 after a setback.

B. Lumpkin
08-11-2016, 12:17 PM
I'm usually replacing the barrel at around 1,000 rds on my 6mm guns. I don't do setbacks as I've never had a barrel maintain the same accuracy afterwards. Close, but not the same and close just doesn't cut it. I love the 6mm rounds, but they can be harsh on barrels, lol.

liliysdad
08-11-2016, 01:32 PM
Yes, they are.

Im not shooting benchrest..as a matter of fact, the only time my long guns see paper is load development and zero confirmation. Other than that, its steel. For me, close is good enough, and a set back typically does that for me.

M-Tecs
08-11-2016, 05:10 PM
The 6mm Dasher is stlll competitive for F Class and 1,000 Bench Rest at plus 3,000 rounds and still going. None of the 7 or 8 Dashers that I have built have needed barrel replacement yet. I've built some 6mm BRs that are over 4,000 rounds and still holding elevation at 1,000. I just replaced a 6mm BR with 4,300 rounds.

The claims for the 6mm Competition Match barrel life are very interesting but I have never built one. The designer won the nationals at Camp Perry with it a couple of years ago.

http://www.longrangehunting.com/forums/f53/6mm-competition-match-mcr-95524/

http://www.teamblaster.net/reviews/6CM.pdf

http://6mmbr.websitetoolbox.com/post?id=619810&highlight=competition+match

I have never built a 243AI for a completion rifle so I can not comment but the standard 243 Winchester will rarely still be competitive at 2,000 rounds.

country gent
08-11-2016, 09:04 PM
My last 243 win barrel went 2400 rds when the X count sarted dropping at 600yds. It was a Hart SS 1-7twist over the course contour. Chamber was a tight neck version at .268 neck dia throated for 105-115 grn vld bullets. When there up and shooting the various 6 and 6.5s are like a laser but barrel life can be an issue. On a true long range rifle 2000-2500 rds is several years of shooting if you can resist playing with it for other uses. The good old 308 also opens up other long range matches to you like the Palma where certain calibers are required. I have used a savage 110 action to prove test new cartridges over the years. Its a great action for this as the bolt head can be changed out to what you need, and barrel swaps are easy with the barrel nut. A good trigger and scope base with some elevation built into it and your in good shape.

tygar
08-11-2016, 10:10 PM
Heh any of you LR guys need some 168 match .308s. Widners has Noslers on for 48$ per 250 box. I just bought enough to try & shoot out a couple barrels. Good stuff for military match rifles as well as .308 bolts for those that don't use 175s.

For others they also had .44, 240SP, for 34$ per 250.

Smoke4320
08-12-2016, 02:51 PM
Spend All you can and then several hundred dollars more on glass..
Cant hit what you can't see ..

Very Good Glass and a very steady hold will do more for you than any caliber can

Frank46
08-13-2016, 12:08 AM
just received my clubs newsletter and renewal forms. While they have been discussing a longer range setup for the last few years (currently goes out to 300yds) talk has been now out to 1K yards. While I cannot see much less shoot at that distance would be a good money maker as 1k ranges are as scarce as rocking horse poop. I'm thinking they would set it up for various distances much like a high power match range. In any event would be interesting to watch. Frank

M-Tecs
08-13-2016, 12:28 AM
1,000 Service rifle, Match Rifle and BPCR are shot with iron sights.

Smoke4320
08-13-2016, 10:47 AM
1,000 Service rifle, Match Rifle and BPCR are shot with iron sights.


from the OP's stated goals

"where I can hit filled gallon milk jugs/steel/reactive targets for fun"

doubt seriously you can see a gallon milk jug at 1000 yds with open sights

tygar
08-13-2016, 11:05 AM
My old shootin buddy, Craig Parker, (Distinguished, Presidents 100 etc), before we got so old, would shoot service rifle at 1k, & well. Of course not at a milk jug, the bull at 1k is pretty big, just so you can see it, but still dam small groups for irons. I only shot to 600. My service rifle match shot 7" at 500 (M14), AR shot 5" at 600, they probably could do better, as usual rifles are limited by operator & my various spine operations make it hard to get prone.

But per the milk jug thing, I believe he was talking scope & at 1k I can see the 4" X so a milk jug should not be a problem-with the right scope.

osteodoc08
08-13-2016, 06:03 PM
I'm gonna try to see how my AR does with heavy bullets and purchase a Leupold Mark 4 LR/T scope and see how things go.

I also am still considering a Savage Model 10T in 6.5 Creedmoor.

Traffer
08-13-2016, 06:08 PM
Well, this is what I am planning. I am negotiating for a Eddystone P14 (303 British) I plan to paper patch and see if I can shoot it at 600 to 1000 yards.

Scharfschuetze
08-13-2016, 06:18 PM
Well, this is what I am planning. I am negotiating for a Eddystone P14 (303 British) I plan to paper patch and see if I can shoot it at 600 to 1000 yards.

You've made a good choice for a long range rifle as the P14 has great long range sights. The only draw back is the lack of deflection or windage in the sight. For it's time, the P14/US 1917 had the best military iron sights on the planet.

303 brass life, which is usually abysmally short, it as good as any other case when used in the P14. Great rifles and big fun to shoot at long range. Long sight radius, aperture rear sight, blade front sight: what's not to like?

Traffer
08-13-2016, 08:23 PM
Thank you very much. Got my first deer with a M1917 Eddystone. But I have heard lots of good things about the slightly larger bore and smaller recoil of the P14. I was going to hold out for a really good price on this gun but now I think I can go a bit higher. They are getting hard to find.

osteodoc08
08-13-2016, 09:30 PM
Well, this is what I am planning. I am negotiating for a Eddystone P14 (303 British) I plan to paper patch and see if I can shoot it at 600 to 1000 yards.

great choice. I can hold 1-1/2" at 100 yards without much difficulty with my P14. Been a few years since I've shot it. Great visibility with those irons

unclemikeinct
08-14-2016, 03:51 PM
Doc, figure out the bullet you want to shoot first...I'm building a pair of new 1K rifles..My 3rd 243W is giving it up..1100 shots out of those & they are done...The 1000yd game is tough on barrels..So I'm going to try the 6MMBR X version for my 6 mm using the same 105 Hornady Amax bullet...The BRX gun is going to be an 1-8 twist {the old 243 could get by with a 1-9 twist] The other barrel will be my primary Steel target match gun..It is going to be a 28"long bull barrel, one in eight twist, 260 Rem AI to shoot 140 grain VLD bullets...Getting those slugs over 2900FPS is rough on barrel life..Use the slowest burning powder that gives good accuracy..Good Luck, mike in Ct

B. Lumpkin
08-14-2016, 04:41 PM
Unclemike: How do those 105 Amax bullets fly for you? I've never got them to perform as well as the 107 SMK and 105 Berger Hybrid at the 1,000 yard line.

unclemikeinct
08-16-2016, 02:32 PM
They do better if you take the time to weight sort them...I get my hits on steel long range 25%..The guys shooting Bergers get closer to 50%..with no sorting...I don't have the experience or the time put into the long range steel 1000yd game to comment fairly about those bullets...Tell you this, I miss pretty close..The price is right on those Amax while learning...Mike in Ct

Scharfschuetze
08-17-2016, 01:36 AM
We've talked a lot about rifles and bullets, but another important topic when you start shooting at long range is a good spotter with a very good spotting scope. The spotter needs to know how to read the wind and even more importantly the mirage as that is the true measure of what the wind is doing. The spotting scope needs to be good enough to see the "air" between you and the target as that is how you read the mirage. The spotter and you need to be talking the same language too in order not to confuse each other. For practice or sniper matches this is really the way to learn long range shooting. A spotter is not allowed at most matches like the NRA long range or Palma shoots though.

If you want to practice reading the wind at short ranges at a reasonable cost, then set up a good .22RF match rifle with a capable scope and shoot it at 100 and 200 yards. You'll see immediately that you really need to pay attention to the wind indicators such as flags, leaves, grass, blown dust and mirage. Even at 50 yards, wind will deflect a .22 RF significantly. I use a Winchester Model 52 with a Unertl scope on it for such practice and for fun. My shooting club shoots .22 RFs at 100 yards every Monday evening from the prone position, usually with aperture sights although I guess a guy could use a bipod and scope if he wanted to.

When shooting at long range without a spotter, one generally places his spotting scope on his week side to easily see through it and checks the wind value between shots as well as his last bullet's impact if at a formal match with target pullers. He can then adjust his sight's deflection or just hold off for it. The mil dot scope reticle is perfect for holding off for wind or even elevation if one likes to do so. Aperture sights when using a blade or post front sight can be held off too, although it's generally best to trust your sight adjustments and their repeatability in this case.

In the photo below, the vertical poles to the left of the shooter's heads are the scope stands that hold their spotting scopes.

waco
08-22-2016, 08:19 PM
We use a Leupold Mark IV spotting scope to shoot out to one mile. 300gr bullets with a BC of .800 out of a 338 Lapua @2700fps.
1000 yards is kinda a chip shot with this thing. The rifle glass is a Vortex Viper PST 6x24x50 Mil/Mil

The spotting scope has a Mil reticle as well. Makes calling misses much more consistant and accurate.

Idaho Sharpshooter
08-24-2016, 01:44 AM
The most interesting thing in all of the advice here; warnings about short barrel life.

I read here that barrels are (too) expensive, and the winning cartridges burn them out too fast.

Then, I ask them if bullets, and powder, and primers, and the gasoline/diesel to go to the range or just out shooting (here in SW Idaho I have public ground where I can shoot two miles) is not a factor in the overall cost. If you bought a Savage long range model, say in 6.5-284, you will spend about as much for brass, powder, bullets, and dies as the rifle cost you by time you shoot the barrel out.
With a tapered base (like a Murphy 20 to 40 moa) that rifle, with the Berger 140gr Hybrid 6.5mm bullets about 3000fps will run out of scope about 1200 or more yards.

Buy or build what you want, and enjoy it.

M-Tecs
08-24-2016, 02:04 AM
Barrel life is always a factor for me. I am a toolmaker by trade and I do all my own work so it cost me a lot less than for most but my 6mm Dasher gives me double to triple the competitive barrel live/accuracy over the 243 Win. The Dasher equals the velocity with better accuracy so yes barrel life is a consideration.

I shoot on average 3K to 4K per summer on prairie dogs with a 223. Most was 6,700 rounds on summers. My current 223 has around 9K on it and is still holding 3/4 MOA at 200 yards. My 22/250 AI's get less than a third of that.

B. Lumpkin
08-24-2016, 10:16 AM
M-Tecs- Great info on that 223 at 9,000 rds. May I inquire what the bullet weight is? Also, what is the barrel material? Stainless, CM, and has it been treated IE. Chrome plated bore, Nitride, etc?

Doc Highwall
08-24-2016, 10:50 AM
I am with M-Tecs using the smaller 6mm cartridges like the 6mm Dasher, 6mm BRX, and the 6mm Br. being able to shoot to 1000 yards.

Everybody is looking for a magic cartridge to give them an advantage in wind drift, and they are some better then the cartridges that I already mentioned, but they come with a minus, shortened barrel life.

My first choice would be the standard 6mm Br. with a no turn neck, shooting 105 to 108 grain bullets. Now having a cartridge with a long barrel life I would be able to use the money that I saved on barrels and larger quantities of powder, to shoot more and really learn to read the wind. Any body can shoot a good score when there is no wind, but the people that know how to read the wind can shoot a good score in all conditions.

Last week in my small-bore prone league I was one of the few to shoot a 400. I had to stop shooting at least 8-10 times waiting out the change in wind conditions, and then shoot fast before the conditions changed again.

Shoot as much as you can, and learn to read the wind conditions, and make/take notes as to what you did. This is part of your learning to read the wind........part science.........part art.

tygar
08-24-2016, 12:22 PM
Just picked up 2 new LR (hopefully) rifles that Jeff Walker just put together for me. A 26" HB 12 twist 308, & a 24" 10 twist 300 WSM. Just can't stay away from 30s.

Shot both yesterday. On the 308 I shot 168s 4 different powders with 6 different wts 5 rds ea. All shot 1 hole & 2 were barely over bore size. Just took my Nightforce off my sniper/fclass 308 & it was close enough for govt work at 100.

The WSM I only had 10rds. 168s, 62gr, H4350. Walked it in & last 3, one hole.

I only had a cheap scope on the WSM cause I'm out of good LA picatinnys, but it's a light wt hunter for out to 500 (hopefully), so at 100 its a start. Loading up 200s & 210s now to check out tomorrow. If they don't work go to 190s & 180s.

I just like a good 30 cal. They just seem "right".

Scharfschuetze
08-24-2016, 12:30 PM
Just picked up 2 new LR (hopefully) rifles that Jeff Walker just put together for me. A 26" HB 12 twist 308, & a 24" 10 twist 300 WSM. Just can't stay away from 30s.

Shot both yesterday. On the 308 I shot 168s 4 different powders with 6 different wts 5 rds ea. All shot 1 hole & 2 were barely over bore size. Just took my Nightforce off my sniper/fclass 308 & it was close enough for govt work at 100.

The WSM I only had 10rds. 168s, 62gr, H4350. Walked it in & last 3, one hole.

I only had a cheap scope on the WSM cause I'm out of good LA picatinnys, but it's a light wt hunter for out to 500 (hopefully), so at 100 its a start. Loading up 200s & 210s now to check out tomorrow. If they don't work go to 190s & 180s.

I just like a good 30 cal. They just seem "right".

Sounds like you have a couple of winners. What actions did you build them on?

tygar
08-24-2016, 02:10 PM
700 short & long. Except for dangerous game rifles where I use long extractor actions, I use 700s mostly, sometimes a Sako.

Funny thing is I just had the barrels sitting around, forgot how I even got them. But the 308 was 12 twist & I wanted to try 155s, so mated up to a SA I had. Unfortunately it weighed about 11# with the NF. May flute the heck out of it to get it down some. Already have a 13# 308 & it's to heavy to carry except to the bench.

Same with the WSM but only a sporter barrel, so expectations arn't that hi. I just wanted a WSM to shoot & hunt with since both my others are 1k guns & don't really want to waste barrel life on plinking.

Not a lot of throat on the barrel. I got up to 210s loaded but pretty far down & not at my BR load of 62.0 H4350. Topped out 60 I think. May need to ream it a little. That's why I put it on a LA, so I can use 210s seated to .308 in the neck.

Won't know about winners until well less than a minute at 500. Don't think I'll have a problem with the 308. You can just tell sometimes that a gun will shoot.

Also just loaded some 180s for the WSM to go with the 200 & 210s I loaded for tomorrow.

We'll see!

M-Tecs
08-24-2016, 02:56 PM
M-Tecs- Great info on that 223 at 9,000 rds. May I inquire what the bullet weight is? Also, what is the barrel material? Stainless, CM, and has it been treated IE. Chrome plated bore, Nitride, etc?

My favorite load for prairie dogs is 40 grain V-Max or Ballistic Tip over 28 grains H335. Bullets are hBN coated. Other than about 200 rounds of 55 grain coated that is the only load this barrel has seen.

On the NRA match rifle shooting 80 to 90 grain bullets useable competitive barrel life is around 3,500 rounds before I start having elevation issues at 600 yards.

For my PD rifles they vary from 9 to 13 twist. Match rifles normally are 7 to 8 twist. I do have one 6 1/2 twist for 90 grain but I have fired that very little. Barrels are Kreiger SS.

tygar
09-02-2016, 02:28 PM
Sounds like you have a couple of winners. What actions did you build them on?

Well shot them the other day. So far, "no" winners.

The 308 didn't duplicate groups. Only 1 was >1moa & a couple about 1 moa all 168s. Going to get some 155 loads from Boyd since I've not been shooting any 155s.

OTOH, the 300 WSM shot 2 different 168 loads in .5. One 180 load in 1 moa but the 200 & 210s sucked. Going to try some different loads & seating depths for the heavier bullets. No use to me if it won't shoot heavy bullets.

tazman
09-04-2016, 05:22 PM
My local club has a 600 yard range so that it probably as far as I will shoot.
I have a 223 that has a 1 in 9 twist. It shoots 69 grain Match Kings very well. Are these adequate for ranges out to 600 yards?

liliysdad
09-04-2016, 05:37 PM
69s will get there...but wind will be your nemesis.

tygar
09-04-2016, 07:09 PM
My local club has a 600 yard range so that it probably as far as I will shoot.
I have a 223 that has a 1 in 9 twist. It shoots 69 grain Match Kings very well. Are these adequate for ranges out to 600 yards?

Like Tazman said 69s will go that far, but don't think they'll work that well & since wind will bounce 80s around like a BB in a beer can, 69s will be something to behold. With that 9 twist your stuck with the light ones.

Blackwater
09-05-2016, 03:49 PM
The big deal with long range target rifles is making them more user friendly, so that it's EASIER to hold and control (and thus hit) at long range. The heavy barrels are more stable and because of the extra mass, heat up slower, so POI tends to be more stable. The added wt. forward also means any tiny pressures or forces we inadvertently cause on the gun at the crucial moment the trigger breaks have less effect. The stocks are designed to lie more stable on a rest. Etc., etc., etc. Long range shooting will REALLY reveal any little thing in your technique that can cause problems, and it quickly becomes a real test of our observational and senses to keep getting those distant groups smaller and smaller. Light sporter barrels CAN be incredibly accurate if you find the right load for them, and the crown is good, etc., but they heat up faster because of the lesser mass in them, and thus, POI's can change slightly, enlarging groups as the barrel warms up via shooting.

Many have come to think heavier barrels are automatically more accurate, but in fact, they may or may not be. A really accurate rifle for game and one that's "really accurate" in terms of long range shooting may look quite different from each other, but each has its assets and liabilities. There's a reason we don't usually tote around heavy barreled rifles after deer or whatever, and it's simple practicality and the differences in need. Hunting, only one shot should be our goal. In targets, we seldom shoot fewer than 10 in a string. So the rifles are adapted to the purpose. Target triggers tend to be much lighter than hunting rifle triggers. With targets, you're trying to put them all into the same hole and in the center of the "X." Hunting triggers have to allow for the knocks and dings of normal field work.

Long range shooting is a specialized purpose, and specialized guns just make it easier to do well, and keeps things a bit more consistent as well.

Doc Highwall
09-06-2016, 09:49 PM
I would like to mention that you have to make sure your barrel has been stress relieved. A barrel that has been stress relieved only gets hot when it is fired. A barrel that has not been stress relieved, will bend when heated up, changing point of impact, and bend back to where it was when it cools off. This is why first cold bore shots are the most important, especially with a barrel that has not been stress relieved.

dk17hmr
09-07-2016, 12:50 AM
Build a 6br or a 6 dasher if you want to poke holes in stuff at 1000. If you want to blow up water bottles at 1000 go with a fast 7mm or a fast 30.

Barrel life is always in question when shooting big and fast no one talks about the money involved in components or factory ammo to actually shoot out a barrel. I recall reading about a guy worried about shooting out his 338 Lapua in 1000 rounds, he didn't reload and it didn't click that 1000 rounds at $5 a shot would be $5000 worth of ammo. Barrels are cheap have fun.

My last 300wsm barrel went 2200 rounds before I upgraded. Before I pulled the barrel I shot a 9 shot group at 100 yards that measured under 3/4". I am having that barrel made into. 18" 308 Winchester right now.

Idaho Sharpshooter
09-16-2016, 01:42 AM
I am a rifle junkie, but shooting Rockchucks here in Idaho is my major addiction.
That said, I do have a 338 LM and an STW for longer range shooting.

It might be the most sensible option to buy a Savage single shot target model, and about four other caliber barrels for it. I would suggest a 6.5-284, and then add barrels and boltheads for 223 and your choice of Magnum cartridges.