lead rings in the chamber??

[landers]

I discovered these lead rings while testing some cast loads, I got them from both the 9mm and 45acp. The 9mm created the most with several landing on my wrist and arm while shooting (the one next to the barrel), the 45 ring fell out of the chamber when I disassembled it to clean. Any thoughts of what is causing this?

Thanks, Landers

173799 173800

[Tatume]

Could you show us some photos of your loaded ammunition? It looks like you are not belling enough, the rings are being shaved when you seat bullets into the cases, and the rings are then being expelled upon firing. The solution is to make the bell larger, which will also probably improve accuracy as well.

[landers]

Tatume, I appreciate your input. I was very meticulous in loading these and with the die setup to ensure the cases were belled enough so the bullets were not swaged down or crimped to tight to swage them. I pulled several bullets during the loading process to check for swaging, the pulled bullets were the correct sized diameter and the crimp was light, to not put a ring on the pulled bullet. All the rounds were run through a chrony and there were no velocity anomalies so it should not have been caused by set back.

[jcren]

If they aren't pushing up when seating the bullet, they are being shaved by the chamber lead, or rather lack of. If you have slugged the barrel and are sure of the size, different bullet profiles may help (tc is less prone to this than shouldered profiles) or get in touch with Dougguy on here to correct the poor machining on the lead.

[Yodogsandman]

Could you show us some photos of your loaded ammunition? It looks like you are not belling enough, the rings are being shaved when you seat bullets into the cases, and the rings are then being expelled upon firing. The solution is to make the bell larger, which will also probably improve accuracy as well.

This^^^^

[landers]

Hi Yodogsandman,
If I were responding to this post I would agree 100%, but I can assure you the bullets were not shave in the loading process. The cases were flared quite well and the seat and crimp are done with separate dies in separate stations to avoid that exact problem.

[DougGuy]

If the freebore in your barrel is not of sufficient diameter, even though you may seat the boolit deep enough in the case to "plunk" when chambered, the rings are being shaved off as the boolit is forced into the barrel. The lead has to go somewhere. When you have a barrel with freebore in front of the headspace ledge in the chamber that is slightly larger than the boolit diameter, then the barrel won't shave the boolit.

Normally, throating a barrel will solve shaving and let you seat out long enough that the boolit is seated in the throat when chambered. This is the most accurate arrangement for an autopistol.

Can you seat one of your boolits so there is some of the shoulder out in front of the case mouth and will this boolit go fully into the chamber?

[mdi]

What 2 guns are you shooting these in? I would doubt that two guns of different calibers would produce similar problems as "odd" as these. This occurrence is new to me and I shoot 3, 9mm and 2. 45 ACPs with home cast bullets...

[landers]

Can you seat one of your boolits so there is some of the shoulder out in front of the case mouth and will this boolit go fully into the chamber?[/QUOTE]

DougGuy, I know the 45 can as the design has a shoulder that is way past the case mouth, the 9mm I am not sure of. I will check both of the barrels later tonight. I have some soft non sized bullets that I will use to slug the chamber to see if I can get a throat diameter.

[landers]

What 2 guns are you shooting these in? I would doubt that two guns of different calibers would produce similar problems as "odd" as these. This occurrence is new to me and I shoot 3, 9mm and 2. 45 ACPs with home cast bullets...

The 45 is a Colt Commander and the 9mm is a EAA Witness. I only found one ring in the colt when I disassembled it to clean but the 9mm spit a few of them out during firing.

[runfiverun]

look at your brass

[landers]

look at your brass

Runfiverun, what do you mean, what should I be looking for? I am using mixed head stamp brass for both the 9 and 45.

[Yodogsandman]

I bell the mouths out enough and deep enough so that the boolit will just sit there in the case mouth without falling over before being seated, while in the loading block. About 1/16" to 1/8" deep.

[runfiverun]

little ridges in the case mouth they will grab and tear at the boolit.
they act similar to a crimp on gas check.
the boolit slides forward from the primer going off,, tear,, the powder ignites and pops the case open.
the boolit continues its way down the barrel and the ring falls off behind it when the case gets jerked out of the chamber.

I have seen the ring thing form from the seating too.
and I have had cases come out of the chamber with the lead still attached [lever guns]
it never really affected accuracy but I bet it didn't help it none.

[bedbugbilly]

+1 to mdi . . . more information on the pistols might help. I also fine it rather odd that it is occurring on two different handguns so I would think that would sort of point to how you are loading. I'm not inferring you are doing it wrong, just that something needs to be changed such as COAL or boolit design? I think it all boils down to a matter of elimination.

Have you had the pistols and shot them for a while? Are they new to you and your reloads?

Can you post some photos of your reloads? Another thing to remember is "belling" . . . not saying you are doing it not enough or too much but what one person considers "adequate" another may see as "in-adequate". You are seating and crimping in two separate operations so that should help a lot over seating/crimping in same operation. I can't speak for 45ac but I do load 9mm - range brass only with my cast. While I have had fairly good success with it, each pistol is different. I just find it odd that it is happening with two or you pistols so I'd be more inclined to be looking at my cartridges first.

Some good info given as to why this could happen . . .

Good luck . . . it will be interesting to see what you come up with . . . we all can learn from it.

[Scharfschuetze]

Good luck . . . it will be interesting to see what you come up with . . . we all can learn from it.

Interesting indeed. Every now and then I'll find a light layer of lead on the lip of my rifle cases; but only with plain base boolits, usually with the 30/30 and 32 Special with 6 or so grains of Bullseye or Red Dot powders. It comes off easily with my thumbnail. The loads do not lead the bore at all so... who knows?

Good luck with a solution.

[landers]

Well after sitting in the loading room and going over everyone suggestions I may have found the cause of the rings. I was developing a new load with a new bullet, it was a 125gr bullet for revolvers with a crimp groove that I sized down for 9mm. I believe the rings are caused in part from the brass as Runfiverun mentioned in combination with a crimp groove seated below the mouth of the case. Upon firing the neck tension of the brass is striping a tiny ring off the bullet where it is unsupported due to the crimp groove and seating the crimp groove below the mouth of the case. It will be a few weeks before I can test this theory, I will seat them at the crimp groove and see if the rings continue to develop. As for the single ring from the 45, which was loaded with my usual bullet, I am starting to wonder if it was a left over from the 9mm hung up on the cleaning rod, my shirt, or other parts of the cleaning bench. Thanks for everyone's input, I will give an update when I get a chance to get out to the range.

[B. Lumpkin]

Have you had this issue with other lead bullets in the 9mm barrel? I'd look at the throat as a possibility as well. A bullet with a sharp shoulder front driving band plus a sharp throat will give you lead rings in the chamber as well. Over time it will build up and either fall out (as your did) or give you failure to go into battery issues.

If you are pushing up a lead ring during reloading, you would be able to physically see and feel it around the case mouth where it crimps the bullet. A for a the inside lip of the brass causing a ring from being turned into the bullet, I have nothing as I have never seen or experienced that issue.

[beagle]

I have had a similar problem with a 9mm Ruger Blackhawk convertible. Apparently mine was cause by an oversized bullet and a sharp throat. After a while, this gun has steadied down and the throat may have smoothed out some and I dropped my sizing diameter by .001" and the problem has almost gone away now. I was always of the school that bigger was better when sizing was concerned as long as the round would chamber but apparently an abrupt throat with an oversized bullet can cause the tiny lead rings. Apparently, it doesn't harm anything but in the Ruger eventually builds up and you have to wipe it out with a bronze brush as chambering becomes impossible. A mild throating will probably help as well./beagle

[silverjay]

I had the same problem in 9mm when I started coating instead of lubing.

[yondering]

Well after sitting in the loading room and going over everyone suggestions I may have found the cause of the rings. I was developing a new load with a new bullet, it was a 125gr bullet for revolvers with a crimp groove that I sized down for 9mm. I believe the rings are caused in part from the brass as Runfiverun mentioned in combination with a crimp groove seated below the mouth of the case. Upon firing the neck tension of the brass is striping a tiny ring off the bullet where it is unsupported due to the crimp groove and seating the crimp groove below the mouth of the case. It will be a few weeks before I can test this theory, I will seat them at the crimp groove and see if the rings continue to develop. As for the single ring from the 45, which was loaded with my usual bullet, I am starting to wonder if it was a left over from the 9mm hung up on the cleaning rod, my shirt, or other parts of the cleaning bench. Thanks for everyone's input, I will give an update when I get a chance to get out to the range.


I have a different take on this, having experienced lead rings like you mention in several different situations. While it could be issues with loading practices like others mention here, that is usually not the culprit, in my experience. I don't think your theory about the crimp groove is correct either; that shouldn't even matter, the crimp groove is no different than another lube groove.

Any chance you're using an alloy that's too soft for the load? In certain conditions, the bullet can expand in diameter under pressure enough to scrape a lead ring off at the front end of the chamber. This seems most common in semi-auto pistol barrels where the case headspaces on the case mouth, but it can happen in other chambers too.

Short brass can contribute to this sometimes, leaving more room between the case mouth and front of the chamber. For example, 40 S&W in a 10mm chamber will do this occasionally (only try that in a Glock!).

Be careful of these lead rings in a semi-auto pistol - they can prevent the slide from going fully into battery by keeping the round from chambering fully, and they can also pinch the case mouth, causing higher pressure. The partial out-of-battery situation is the reason behind the warnings against lead in Glock barrels, caused by using soft swaged lead bullets that can leave lead rings behind.

Hope that helps.