Bevel, or not?

[ajjohns]

In a post further down the page I found in my 38wcf that using poly shot buffer really helped a ton in making consistent, accurate loads for 1873 Winnie. The boolits I was using were a BHN of 16 and a bevel base, sized .401. Just curious, I have a wee bigger neck area in the chamber and obviously a bevel base isn't going to obchurate as well as a flat base. The next time I purchase some lead, should I be getting a softer BHN and flat base or softer and a bevel base ok? I've fired only six shots so far and they're a good group at 50 yds, even at 100. But when I clean the barrel, I don't know? It seems there's some leading going on. Just wanted some opinions. It's only a few months till deer season lol.

Thanks!

[Rattlesnake Charlie]

I can't comment on the bevel base question as I have never used any cast bullet with a bevel base. I don't think you'll get much obturation unless you use a very soft boolit and black powder. I do believe that a flat base would be better here too.

As for the leading, have you tried any boolits sized to .402? An undersized boolit is often the cause of leading as the gas getting by erodes the boolit. I suspect the poly shot buffer is helping to seal off leakage past the boolit. Glad you found a load that works enough to harvest your deer.

[DougGuy]

A little soft lead in the mix maybe BHN12 and soft lube. As mentioned sizing to .402" may help too. I doubt the BB has as much to do with it as the other things.

Sizing to .402" in your present alloy might help, soft lube will always help I prefer Felix which you can find the recipe for it in the stickies in the lube sub forum. It's hard to point a finger and say THAT! THAT'S the culprit! Try one change at a time, shoot it, see how the bore looks and see how it groups.

[Half Dog]

I was told by an expert shooter that the bevel based bullets were the most accurate bullets that he has shot. They were for a 45 ACP though.

[northmn]

I have used the shot shell buffer with good results in my 38-55 with softer bullets. I place a cork like wad made from a gasket material on top and bottom. Another trick to stop leading is to use one a lube like Lee Liquid Alox. There are others but that one works for me. In my 32-20 I give the bullets a couple of coats. May help with diameter a little. Smokeless will bump up bullets but you might want to try faster burning powders.

DP

[DerekP Houston]

I was told by an expert shooter that the bevel based bullets were the most accurate bullets that he has shot. They were for a 45 ACP though.

I don't know about this particular question...but my BB wadcutters in 38 are substantially easier for me to get loaded on a progressive press and shoot the same as my other models.

[ajjohns]

I know it's hard to pin point something. I must admit these boolits I bought, I didn't cast myself. They're Acme and they are .401-2 and they all weigh so close I don't think there's a problem there. I haven't pin pointed down if there's even a real problem, yet. Sometimes I may be the culprit of a bad shot than the load, but usually not. My last six shots are, with sight adjustment, two rounds a piece within a half inch of each other till I was in the bull at 50 yds. I just don't think I'll be able to shoot many more shots and have them at all tight by the way the patches look when I scrub the barrel. I'm just curious on my next purchase before I go and buy another order of boolits. My barrel is lined, before I purchased the gun so I assume the dia is right on. Measuring the cases, and you really wouldn't have to they're that obvious, they're about .006/7 over what I've shot through my Colt saa from 1908, and 35W's measurements he was kind enough to give me. When I started a month ago, I used these same boolits with no psb. They were not accurate with any load or powder. At 1300 fps or so down to right about less than 1200. They weren't to poa and didn't cluster to any particular rhyme or reason. AND, I always used BlackHills factory ammo first for chrony/target shots for a baseline and they shot real well and speed was very close to the faster reloads. I was thinking they must've been softer. So, when I received the psb, I loaded a gr less of IMR 4227 and put the buffer in, they shot wonderful. So, am a fishing on this question, absolutely. Am I fairly new to shooting cast in a less then perfect chamber, right again. I'm just curious on my next purchase before I go and buy another order of boolits and I would rather buy some of these softer, bevel or flat base by the hundred than 500 in case I'm chasing the wrong thing. I will be trying again this weekend to see if 10 shots or so print good and or see how bad the patches are when I clean it.

[Scharfschuetze]

I don't know about this particular question...but my BB wadcutters in 38 are substantially easier for me to get loaded on a progressive press and shoot the same as my other models.

That and they fall from commercial casting machines better than flat base projectiles.

I've never had an issue with bevel base commercial boolits, but their Brinell hardness and hard wax type lube is generally the antithesis of what you want for your 1873 Winchester; where a softer alloy and more pliable lube is often best at its lower pressure and velocity in comparison to the larger cases for stronger rifles shooting at higher velocities.

Given your large neck in that 73, I'd also try to get some .402" or larger boolits. Do slug your bore though and see what its diameter is. A larger diameter should fit the rifle's throat better and along with a softer boolit alloy and lube, should fix your suspected leading issue and hopefully shoot more accurately. A softer alloy boolit should also have a better terminal affect during the deer season you are planning for.

Regarding the filler, if it improves your loads, by all means use it, though I doubt that the small case size of your 38 WCF really requires it. Fillers are generally used in larger cases with small to medium amounts of mid burning powders like 4895.

I envy you your project with that Model 1873. It sounds like a lot of fun working up loads for that 38 WCF. The last one in that calibre that I played with was in Texas in a Model 1892 carbine and it was a hoot.

[ajjohns]

Thank you for the response. When I was working on my 44/40's I didn't have much of a problem between two rifles. A 92 Winchester and Model 14 1/2 Remington. They both were pretty straight forward (lucky me) and of course are much stronger. This gun has been a put together project, buying the barreled action and then the rest of the parts and the wood to finish it. It was a lot of fun and now my Colt saa in the same round has a partner. I got around to shooting it when I was done working on it and noticed right away the necks were big. Shoulder about in the right spot compared to the Colt, where it moves forward, but big. Thought uh oh, maybe that's why the barreled action was a good price, ream job found a boo boo. But, I thought I can get by this, it'll work out. So, I went along and tried some new stuff.
The buffer was used because of someone else's problems were similar, remedied it by using it. Thought the gas check effect would help me too. The fellow some time back had a Marlin with a grossly oversized bore/groove and using soft alloyed slugs and buffer brought it right into time, his targets were great.
Because of the ease of loading, I like bevel base. Maybe it doesn't matter, jacketed slugs always load fine? I'll pan out how the remaining 30 or so slugs work and have to decide then where to go. But by all means, anymore suggestions are more than welcome.

P.S. If using buffer is the way to get this to work right, I would suppose they wouldn't be so good to shoot out of the saa? I'm thinking the cylinder gap won't like all the plastic coming out of each shot?

[bstone5]

All of my Master Caster molds for my automated Mastr Caster are bevel base.
Magnum Engineering recommended the bevel base when I purchased my first mold.
I cast powder coat and install home made gas checks on all of my cast bullets.
I get zero lead after shooting several hundreds rounds at a time thru the same gun.
Works well for me.

[44man]

I bought a Lee BB mold for a friends .357, shot OK with no leading. With nothing to do I cut the BB base to a FB and accuracy got twice as good but I don't know why, I attribute it to a longer drive area to match the twist better.
Can't say a BB is bad if it shoots OK.
Reminds of the time with a TC 30-30 that I shot pennies at 100 yards with from the bench, scoped. I used the RCBS Sil boolit, takes a GC and I ran out so I loaded without, all boolits turned sideways at 50 yards from the loss of twist fit. Recovered boolits still looked good, no gas cutting.
Doesn't sound like much but a BB loses one full drive band.

[ajjohns]

Well, I shot 5 more rounds last night at 50 yds. They were all easily in an inch and that makes 12 shots without cleaning so far this go round. I don't know? Maybe I'm ok, just try to get some boolits that are a bit softer to try. I put a light in the breech, barrel looks really good. Though I can't see real well in the throat area and the first inch or so of the rifling. I have about 20 more rounds to dry up from my last reloading and I'm not gonna touch a thing cleaning wise until they're gone. Unless accuracy goes to broad side barn.

I had no trouble loading these rounds with the bevel base. I have Star Line brass, Hornady dies, finishing them off with a Lee fcd. If I were to switch to the flat base, are they gonna be harder to load as far as being off kilter in the neck or worse yet crumple? I remember loading j-words in Winchester brass for 44/40 and sometimes they were a pain.

[DougGuy]

I would advise to get away from the Lee FCD. The FCD is meant to iron out any bulges in the outside of the case which if you have decent neck tension (very much needed too btw...) you will have slight bulges and once the FCD swages the bulges out, it has downsized the boolit inside the case. You only -thought- you were shooting .452" when in fact you were shooting whatever the FCD sized them down to.

Plain base will stay as straight as you start them with your fingers when you set them into the case mouth. Your seating die should have a flat seating stem in it too if you are using a flat nose boolit. Also, check this often for lube buildup and clean it out so it will press squarely on the boolit, and any buildup of lube will cause the boolit to be seated deeper so take it apart and check it and at least wipe the tops of the boolits so they don't carry lube into the die and put it on your seating stem.

Use a roll crimp, light for hard alloy, a little more for soft. See if you don't get as good or even better results.

[Scharfschuetze]

If I were to switch to the flat base, are they gonna be harder to load as far as being off kilter in the neck or worse yet crumple?

Are you using the Lyman M-Die or the RCBS equivalent to expand your necks after sizing? If not, the M-Die will bell the neck and leave a slight ledge so that a cast boolit enters the neck squarely. As noted by Doug Guy, a properly fitting seating stem will also help negate any boolit run out.

The 38 WCF can be quite finicky due to its very thin brass construction and it's easy to collapse a neck and ruin the case with a square base boolit and thus the M-Die recommendation.

[ajjohns]

Quite interesting about the FCD, I realize it now being of collet type but never thought of that! I suppose from thicker to thinner brass you could have a variance? Maybe its all the same. I can setup the regular seating die to do all, even if I seat first, crimp later. And thumbs up about keeping them clean, I know that drill. I just read all about what a wonder they (fcd) were for touchy seating/crimping.
Scharf, I'm just using the dies provided with the Hornady setup. So just the expander die they provide. As mentioned, I never had any issues at all loading the rounds I did. I believe neck tension is good (.002/3) because of dial caliper measuring before and after boolit seating.

[DougGuy]

Quite interesting about the FCD, I realize it now being of collet type but never thought of that!

You are using the Lee collet style FCD? I thought you were using the FCD with the carbide ring in the bottom of it. Okay I described how that die works and it's known pitfall.

I like the collet style dies but I modify them 2 ways. First, the crimp band is wider than it needs to be and so it squeezes the boolit as well as the case mouth and second, it needs to be brought down onto the case mouth so it does not size down the boolit in front of the case. I guess it can swage down the boolit right out of the case mouth but no it woudn't swage down the boolit inside the case like the FCD with the carbide ring can sometimes do.

I do think there is a benefit to this style crimp in that it puts up a bit more resistance before the boolit breaks inertia and pulls crimp and in those short nanoseconds it (in my theory anyway) can give the powder a little bit more time to burn before the boolit starts moving and I was seeing pretty consistent velocities over the chrony in my .44 SBH using this style crimp. I think it gives more consistent ignition. Magnum primers can sometimes cause the boolit to jump just from the energy developed by the primer itself. When this happens ignition can be very inconsistent which would cause drastic variations in pressure and velocity. This modified collet crimp die puts a crimp band on the case that is secure enough to resist any premature boolit jump.

Also I would like to add that hardcast boolits do not need this much crimp, the softer the alloy the more crimp can be used as softer alloy can let the boolit swage into the crimp somewhat and cause the base of the boolit to move slightly forward.

Here is a link to how I modify my collet dies.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?201449-Question-about-type-of-crimp-required&p=2239315&viewfull=1#post2239315

[ajjohns]

Back from the weekend. I have a total of at least 25 shots fired now and no accuracy changes. I think my question is answered. Though my next purchase I believe since I'm trying to be kind to the rifle in question and a Colt SAA, they will be softer BHN and might as well be beveled base. I see your thought there Doug, I believe the crimp band is a wee bit wide too. I did have to check when I got home Friday what the collet LFC one does and it didn't swage anything down. But, my boolits are 16 bhn. Maybe as you later stated the collet one is ok. I have pictures but don't know how to post them, the groups were very good again at 75 yds. Maybe I'll shoot the remaining 30 rounds and see how it works, then clean it.

I do have to comment though on one thing, especially with a weaker action gun be very careful when tweaking loads around the 1300 fps mark using psb. I worked up 17 gr of IMR 4227 and used 6.5 gr of psb. They were accurate, average speed was just under 1300. I ranged from higher 1280s to 1310 or so. I thought I'd get the average up above 1300 and tried 17.2 grains powder and 6.3 of psb. It shot up to an average of 1360. 1350ish for the low 1370 on the nose for a high. So as you can see it doesn't take much increase of powder and psb before you could maybe get into trouble.

[popper]

Only problem with FB or BB is getting a good square base and a good even bevel on the base. Try dacron for filler. I use a mould with all but 0.020 of the GC shank removed, easy to cull even slightly bad base. I can push near jacketed fps with accuracy. They seat easier than BB for me.

[smithywess]

Back from the weekend. I have a total of at least 25 shots fired now and no accuracy changes. I think my question is answered. Though my next purchase I believe since I'm trying to be kind to the rifle in question and a Colt SAA, they will be softer BHN and might as well be beveled base. I see your thought there Doug, I believe the crimp band is a wee bit wide too. I did have to check when I got home Friday what the collet LFC one does and it didn't swage anything down. But, my boolits are 16 bhn. Maybe as you later stated the collet one is ok. I have pictures but don't know how to post them, the groups were very good again at 75 yds. Maybe I'll shoot the remaining 30 rounds and see how it works, then clean it.

I do have to comment though on one thing, especially with a weaker action gun be very careful when tweaking loads around the 1300 fps mark using psb. I worked up 17 gr of IMR 4227 and used 6.5 gr of psb. They were accurate, average speed was just under 1300. I ranged from higher 1280s to 1310 or so. I thought I'd get the average up above 1300 and tried 17.2 grains powder and 6.3 of psb. It shot up to an average of 1360. 1350ish for the low 1370 on the nose for a high. So as you can see it doesn't take much increase of powder and psb before you could maybe get into trouble.

I think your rifle is doing very well. You would have a problem improving your groups from those you describe. The use of P.S.B. with underbore bullets produces great results. I would agree with you to hold the velocities to around 1300 f.p.s. or you'll be picking up pieces. You are fortunate with your relined barrel to have a groove diameter as small as your rifle obviously has (around .401") because most of the blackpowder cartridge rifles in this calibre have really large groove diameters and I have one at .410" which gives the problem of difficulty chambering a loaded cartridge. I got around the problem with that by reaming the chamber throat with a throating reamer until the cartridge would chamber. The P.S.B. I used as well did the rest and I have groups like yours. You can't ask for more than that. One other poster mentioned the process of belling and expanding the case neck with an 'M' die and I think that becomes essential when the groove diameters are really large like the one I quoted. My dies are the R.C.B.S three die Cowboy Action dies and the belling die functions in the same way as Lyman's 'M' die. They are great dies.

[ajjohns]

Thanks. You maybe the one I read about, I read about a .410 measuring Marlin and knew if that one worked, this one would. I know now it's really only me behind the trigger that can make a bad or good group.

One short comment I made above a few posts, I'm thinking not, but is it ok to shoot psb assisted loads in a revolver? Because of the cylinder gap not liking the plastic beads? It would only happen if I carry both Colt and Winchester together and an all out deer attack tries to take me over. Otherwise I think I'll have loads with Unique loaded with the Colt.

[BAGTIC]

If your bullet is large enough to fill the grooves, as it should be in the first place, the bevel base will be fine. Undersize bullet that are expected to expand to bore size due to setback are an anachronism dating back to muzzleloaders when all bullets had to be undersized. Start them off full sized in the first place.

[smithywess]

Thanks. You maybe the one I read about, I read about a .410 measuring Marlin and knew if that one worked, this one would. I know now it's really only me behind the trigger that can make a bad or good group.

One short comment I made above a few posts, I'm thinking not, but is it ok to shoot psb assisted loads in a revolver? Because of the cylinder gap not liking the plastic beads? It would only happen if I carry both Colt and Winchester together and an all out deer attack tries to take me over. Otherwise I think I'll have loads with Unique loaded with the Colt.

My 1st Generation Colt is pre 1898 and only good for black. I think your idea of Unique is good for the handgun. Again, I think everyone should be concerned with pressures/velocities when they handload. Revolvers aren't as strong as rifles.