357AR (Max-Rimless) AR15

[Moleman-]

Here's the 357AR (Max rimless) I built for my son last year. It's a decent little round that's on par with 35rem (at standard pressures) with similar barrel lengths. Built the first upper in it in 2012 and worked out the bugs. I carried a pistol chambered in it for the 2013 deer season and of course saw no deer. State land, saw lots of other guys though. 2014 MI allowed pistol caliber rifles so I was all set and got a 6pt in the same spot (had 13 guys wander by the stand first). 2015 we got a peaceful private land spot and my son was finally able to gun hunt. Figured it was time we made him one. I had previously made a few chamber reamers and set of headspace gauges. While the cartridge is basically the same as a 357Max, you need to have a headspace gauge that sets the headspace off of the case mouth. We ordered a .358"/.350" Green Mountain 1:14" barrel blank http://www.gmriflebarrel.com/rx358-358-caliber-barrel-blank/ . I already had several barrel extensions, an upper, extra bolt carrier group, and an unfinished 80% lower. The barrel was set up with a pin gauge and beveled so the barrel section could be turned between centers down to 1". Once that was done the chamber end was cut for the barrel extension threads 13/16"-16tpi .620"(ish) long. The bolt was put in the barrel extension in the locked position and the distance from the front of the bolt to the front of the barrel extension. Subtract .010" for clearance and Around .004" for crush. Also measure the bolt face depth and add at least .020"-.050" or more to get your rough Go-gauge protrusion for headspacing and write that number down. After verifying the barrel extension screws on smoothly the barrel was reamed with the reamer held in a floating reamer holder. I mark the reamer with a sharpie for depth and once you're close to that, clean the chamber, threads, extension and bolt. Insert the "go-gauge" and with the bolt locked into the extension, lightly screw on the barrel extension until you feel resistance. Use a feeler gauge to measure the gap between the barrel shoulder and extension. I generally loose .003" to .005" clearance once the extension is torqued down. In the pic the (ar10 best pic I had of it) barrel extension is .003" from closing on the "go-gauge". I cut the chamber .006" deeper knowing that I'd most likely have to touch it up a thousand or two once the extension was torqued down. Turns out it was spot on. You can feel a slight bit of resistance with the "go-gauge" and the "no-go" won't even begin to turn.

[Moleman-]

The barrel was turned to 16.5" for a standard carbine gas port profile barrel. The only difference being the muzzle threads were 5/8"-24TPI with an 11 degree target crown. Once that was all turned the barrel extension was torqued down (you can do it before profiling if you want) and headspace verified. The barrel was set up in a dividing head and the gas port was drilled. Before it was removed it was turned 180 degrees and a small dimple was made with a 3/16" ball end mill opposite of the gas port. The passageway in the gas block for the gas port is drilled through the rear setscrew hole in the low profile gas block that was used. So the dimple automatically locates the gas block in the correct position and gives it a much better bite. The barrel was then abrasive blasted and parkerized. At this point we had a barrel, scope, BCG, charging handle upper, and 80% lower

[Moleman-]

My son picked out a Michigan logo with a deer skull superimposed on it. So we sent the unfinished 80% lower to Roy at Shockbottle (shockbottle.com) and had him engrave the MI/deer logo and other info on the lower. Once back it was machined to complete it. The upper and lower were abrasive blasted and coated with Gunkote flat dark earth and baked. The logo was painted with black gunkote and baked again to highlight it. He picked a cheap railed free floating handguard and scope mount off of ebay and a lower parts kit and Magpul stock was ordered from Palmetto Armory. Once those were added we had his deer rifle ready to take to the range.

[Moleman-]

Barrel extension mods. A standard unmodified barrel extension will not feed these wide nosed cartridges. I've modified them two ways. The first few I simply opened up the smaller feed ramps with a 3/8" carbide end mill. The second way was to make them look like a big bore barrel extension and just continue the feed ramp so they both join into one. The second pic is one I pulled off of the net until I can find a pic of one I did hiding somewhere on my computer.... or just go take another one. Both styles worked.

[Moleman-]

Magazine mods. A standard USGI magazine will not work due to the bullet feed guides pressed into the front sides. Pmags are probably the easiest to modify. Just take a dremmel with a sanding drum and remove the two ribs inside the mag towards the front. I have modified thermomags (they suck), Bulgarian ar15 mags -they work well, but you can't fully remove the bullet guide. Basically you'll need a plastic mag with the feed guides molded in so they can be removed. The cast 208gr (weighted in at 215 with gas check and lube) were wide enough at the front that they didn't like Pmags unless you set them in deeper to avoid the front guide nub (you can remove it) and the narrower front, but fed out of the Bulgarian mag and the thermomags. There are other plastic mags out there that will work, but the Pmags work the best so far.

[Moleman-]

I had him shoot quite a few 158gr xtp's out of it getting ready for deer season. He was able to repeatedly shoot about 1.5"-2" at 100 yds with the 180ssp bullets at 2150FPS. It's his rifle but ole dad had to see if it shot any better and it does. I wasn't able to keep them all touching but most were so I was happy it shoots well and I felt confident he was fine out to a little past 100yds. Good thing as the doe he got was about 110 yards out when he took a shot. Broke a shoulder and took out a lung and the heart. It took about 3 bounds before dropping with each bound a little lower to the ground.

[lar45]

Excellent, looks like way too much fun.

[nekshot]

Excellent report and awesome pics. I studied my sons upper many a time dreaming of the same as you did but I don't have the metal work skills to pull it off!

[Hamish]

Mole man,

First, congrats to the boy! It's a rare thing a Dad being able to build a rifle to that degree for his son, well done.

Im very pleased to see you post about this cartridge, I've had it rolling around in th back of my mind for quite some time, and have found a few others that have wondered about doing it also. So glad to see it come to fruition!

Very nice write up by the way!

[popper]

I've modified a couple BO extensions but not to that extreme (post 4 ) with a dremel. Do you see signs of wear or stress on the extension or bolt? DPMS GenII bolt & extension (AR10) have rounded corners and a smaller lug on the extension at the feed ramp. Don't know if they do it on 223. Always wanted a Marlin 357 but for the price I went to the BO. Inquiring mind.

[Moleman-]

popper, No issues. The two styles of barrel extensions are similar to extensions made for big bore cartridges that have more bolt thrust than this cartridge produces. The bolt is a standard ar15 an should be stronger than one opened up for a 450 bushmaster or 450 socom. The ar10 extension shown in the first picture (pic with feeler gauge) is one I'm working on right now for a 44BGM (44x1.8"). I have another barrel blank and an ar15 450 bushmaster BCG that I've been thinking about a similar 44x1.7" (so a higher pressure 1.8" won't fit it) upper to launch some heavy cast bullets out of. Looking at the ar15 450 bushmaster bolt I am surprised there aren't more failures with those.

[FrankG]

I probably missed it , but are you using straight 223 casings ?

[Moleman-]

I probably missed it , but are you using straight 223 casings ?

Yes, I put up a thread in the case forming area. http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?312306-357AR-(Max-Rimless)-from-223-5-56-cases I know a few guys who are using 357Max cases and just turning off the rims, but I like using much cheaper 223/5.56 cases.

[Moleman-]

These are the cast bullets I've shot out of this rifle. They came from KLR a member here for me to test out. The wide flat tip gets a little rounded from striking the feed ramp so I've debated getting a slightly different mold, but haven't found one that's exactly what I want yet. Other than that I've tried 140gr flextips (don't feed well), 158gr SJHP (wide soft hp occasionally hung up), 158 & 180gr xtp (feed well), 180gr ssp (feeds well), 200gr sierra (feeds well), and a few others. I was a little concerned about a piece of the gas check pealing off into the gas port, but it doesn't seem to be an issue. I have a couple gas operated 9mm luger uppers that I shoot Lee 124gr TLrn bullets out of. Leading doesn't seem to be an issue and although they get very dirty from the tumble lube, it just seems to build up to a point and the rest gets blown out the carrier vent hole. The most I've shot of those at a time is around 500.

[Johnch]

Thanks .....Thanks a LOT LOL

Now I have a new AR upper to build or have built for me
IMO it will be perfict for deer hunting here in Ohio

Not that I need another deer rifle , as any of the 45/70's work
But I just like the looks of that round

John

[cowboybart]

I have been toying with the idea of a 35 Herrett Rimless (6.8 SPC parent brass). This looks easier and cheaper. Were you able to order just the 2 blanks from GM or did you have to go thru a distributor or order 10 barrels...?

[Moleman-]

cowboybart, I've always just ordered straight through them. If you call you'll likely speak with Michael or Heather who have always been pleasant and helpful. They offer a discount to members of Weaponsguild (perhaps others as well) and can't hurt to ask. It usually pays for a good chunk of the shipping. I have been happy with all of the blanks I've got from them over the years.

[Hamish]

I smell a Group Buy for barrels if there's a way to pull it off while keeping the completed barrel cost down.

[cowboybart]

I have ordered from Green Mountain before, but when I looked into the Herrett rimless they recommended I go thru Trident if I was only getting 1 barrel. Because I am a little ignorant on the AR and barrel extension set up, Trident was going to do all that and just send me an unchambered AR barrel. Can barrel extensions be purchased for different case sizes?? Are they threaded on with non metric threads?? Is drilling the gas port rocket science?? Does it need to be in a groove or on a land??

[Hamish]

http://www.ar15.com

[beechbum444]

I keep reading this post and I think to myself....me want...me want...

[Moleman-]

The standard extension are threaded 13/16"-16tpi, around .620" long. There are some different thread pitches for some of the big bores and the WSSM barrels. There are several different feed ramps though. Really no one step of making an ar15 barrel is very hard. If you chamber and headspace before you finish profiling it is actually very forgiving of any chambering mistakes. On a manual machine it is still a bit of time just standing/sitting there watching metal peel off. Ideally the gas port should be in a groove, but since only the top barrel makers do that and I am no where near shooting up to a Krieger or similar barrels potential I just drill them and figure I'm in the same company as the majority of barrels out there.

[Hamish]

Moleman, what weight of buffer and buffer spring was used?

[Blackwater]

Great post, Moleman! Very thorough! Only question I have is do the cases, after trimming, need to be inside neck reamed in order to fit consistently? My .30 Herret taught me about the variation of wall thickness in different makes of brass, and I luckily found an inside neck reamer setup for it that eliminated any problem with any brass. I know milspec brass tends to be a bit thicker, so was wondering if this affects loading the shortened .223 cases?

[Moleman-]

Hamish, they've all used either standard rifle or carbine springs and buffers.
Blackwater, I do either turn or ream the cases. There is a thread in the case forming area that was linked to earlier in the thread. I had tried fire forming and had more cases not needing reamed, but the expanders are quicker and less messy

[Artful]

Moleman - Thanks for posting - have you suppressed it or tried subsonic loads in it yet?

[MostlyOnThePaper]

I smell a Group Buy for barrels if there's a way to pull it off while keeping the completed barrel cost down.
I want one. I'd started thinking on this a couple months ago, went searching and truly, NOTHING is new under the sun. That's ok because I'd rather have someone smarter than me (nearly anybody) make it work.

[Moleman-]

Artful, haven't tried subsonic yet. I do have a silencerco hybrid that I bought with that in mind. I'd like to find a good heavy mold with a decent roundish profile that feeds well before messing around with it suppressed. I've got a Lyman and a mp bookmarked that I'll likely order one or the other soon when I get the "hey, what do you want for your birthday" question. So far the only lead bullets I've tried have been NOE and Lee 208grams wfn which shoot okay, but chamber slowly from the blunt tips. They shoot better single loaded, so a more rounded tip should help some. I've been pushing them just over 1800fps with a gas check. Still debating what is going to be a good profile for deer.

[Artful]

I'd like to find a good heavy mold with a decent roundish profile that feeds well before messing around with it suppressed.

So far the only lead bullets I've tried have been NOE and Lee 208grams wfn which shoot okay, but chamber slowly from the blunt tips. They shoot better single loaded, so a more rounded tip should help some.

Still debating what is going to be a good profile for deer.

How much can stick past the case before you run out of room to get it into your magazine? How heavy can you go comfortably? I might be able to find something on had that will work for you.

Ranch Dog 180 grain
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v355/rowdyfisk/FAL/Boolit/Ranch35-180TLRN_zps988332a3.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/rowdyfisk/media/FAL/Boolit/Ranch35-180TLRN_zps988332a3.jpg.html)


Ranch Dog 190 grain
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v355/rowdyfisk/FAL/Boolit/RanchDog359-190RFcustombyLEE2cavity2_zps468bf9fa.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/rowdyfisk/media/FAL/Boolit/RanchDog359-190RFcustombyLEE2cavity2_zps468bf9fa.jpg.html)

NOE 220 grain
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v355/rowdyfisk/FAL/Boolit/NOE220358RNGC2cavity_zps4731ac49.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/rowdyfisk/media/FAL/Boolit/NOE220358RNGC2cavity_zps4731ac49.jpg.html)


222 grain Loverin NEI
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v355/rowdyfisk/FAL/Boolit/NEI222358GCLoverin2cav3_zps81e8e77c.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/rowdyfisk/media/FAL/Boolit/NEI222358GCLoverin2cav3_zps81e8e77c.jpg.html)

280 grain NOE
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v355/rowdyfisk/FAL/Boolit/NOE358009RN280GRN_zps7994d93e.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/rowdyfisk/media/FAL/Boolit/NOE358009RN280GRN_zps7994d93e.jpg.html)

Actually I have not cast with this one yet
NOE 360-228-FN XCB
http://noebulletmolds.com/photos/albums/360-228-FN-35XCB-/N.O.E._Bullet_Moulds_360-228-FN_-GC-_227_gr_Sketch.Jpg
But it might fit the bill

[Moleman-]

I looked at several of those molds, but the now 220 and especially the 228 grain molds look like they would work best. I'm in Arizona till Saturday so I don't have access to my load data. Pointy bullets like the Hornady 180ssp can be loaded out to 2.26" but the more blunt the profile the shorter the col even if there is room to be loaded out longer. You may also have to find a sweet spot for what feeds well vs what is best for ideal accuracy. The 158 and 180 xtp have the same profile and feed best when loaded to the front band on the 180s even though they'll chamber on the rear band. Since they are basically straight cylinders the cartridge base needs to be clear of the feed lips on the mag before they start straightening out to chamber. I think I'm loading the 208noe flat tips to 2.15" and about the same for 200gr Speer rn. Xtps are around 1.95".

[Moleman-]

Artful, I'm looking really hard at the 228gr NOE mold http://noebulletmolds.com/NV/product_info.php?cPath=35_297&products_id=1983&osCsid=bk3r40imt18tb7j7e3rkl7ftn1 but wonder if it's just going to poke a clean hole through a deer. I tried the first BRI 12ga sabot slugs back in the 80's and the accuracy was great from a rifled barrel. Although hits on deer looked like you took a 1/2" cookie cutter and made a hole in the deer with very little shock radiating out. Only ever used them on one deer before going back to foster style slugs for the next 25 years. I'm also looking at this hp mold http://noebulletmolds.com/NV/product_info.php?cPath=35_315&products_id=729&osCsid=bk3r40imt18tb7j7e3rkl7ftn1 but think it's going to be too far the other way. Wish there was one in between. Has anyone shot deer with either one, and if so how did they perform?

[Artful]

You could always put your own hollow point in a solid

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/371968/forster-universal-hollow-pointer-1-8

https://media.midwayusa.com/productimages/880x660/Primary/371/371968.jpg


The Forster Universal Hollow Pointer is ideal for a shooter or reloader looking to drill hollow cavities in the noses of cast bullets on loaded rounds of ammunition. Hollow point depth is controlled by setting the stop collar of the case trimmer. A short or long case trimmer base might be necessary for very short or long rounds. Not for use on jacketed bullets. Case trimmer sold separately.

You can make your own with just a block of wood drilled for size of boolit then cut a slit in the block and put in a vice on the drill press, then choose your own diameter drill bit.

[Moleman-]

Ordered the Noe http://noebulletmolds.com/NV/product_info.php?cPath=35_297&products_id=1983&osCsid=bk3r40imt18tb7j7e3rkl7ftn1 and sent them a message if they had something similar in .432" for my 44x1.6 (like a rimless 445SM) and 44x1.8" (44 version of the raptor).

[kingstrider]

Hmm this is very interesting, had not heard of this cartridge before.

[Moleman-]

Mold came in today. Looks great, handles look good. Did order the wrench and sprue plate lube which wasn't in the package. I'm guessing it's just 2cycle oil? Hope to cast a few soon and try them out.

[Artful]

Follow AL's directions about heat cycling and you shouldn't have any problems.

I need to get to casting as I'm almost out of stuff to play with except J-words

But trying to get my Form 1 can settled is becoming a pain.

[Moleman-]

Cast a few bullets Monday and tried them out. The lead in my pot is way too soft of an alloy to run in an ar15 as fast as I want to, but figured it would allow for a bit of feeding testing. I have three different lengths of free bore out of the rifles and pistols in this chambering. Too long, too short and a compromise. Went with the one in the middle. Still had to seat the bullets fairly deep to keep from touching the rifling. Only tried them in one rifle, but they were hanging up making the transition from tilted in the mag to straight. If the alloy is too soft it will cause it to hang up a bit. Often changing the COL a bit will make a difference as will shortening the feed lips on the mags. So a little bit of playing around will be needed. Won't do that though until I change out the lead in the pot.

[Von Dingo]

I can't stop thinking about this. Would love to get a group buy for barrels..

[popper]

cartridge base needs to be clear of the feed lips on the mag before they start straightening out to chamber A point so many miss.

[Moleman-]

Popper, a lot of guys skim over this and don't understand its importance. It's likely compounded by not being needed for all bullet shapes and COL's. It is also easy to mistake it for a feed ramp or chamber mouth issue when the real problem is the feed lips on the mags being too long. A guy on another site was having issues and glossed over the suggestion to shorten the feed lips a bit saying afterwards he had "modified the mags". We were running out of suggestions when I asked again about how much he'd trimmed off the magazine feed lips. Turns out he hadn't as they had fed 223 just fine. Once the feed lips were trimmed back a bit it started feeding. It's just another technique you can use when asking a gun to chamber something it wasn't designed for.

[Moleman-]

The 357AR build thread I started over at the modern sporting rifle site turned into a group buy for 16" 357AR barrels http://mdws.forumchitchat.com/post/357ar-357maxrimless-8636138?trail=325 . I have no connection to it except that I am happy that more guys will have them and hopefully share load data and any different takes on case forming. I've been busy enough this summer that I haven't done much with the 228Gr NOE mold. I did test out some new feed ramp ideas to try to optimize it for use of cast bullets. Initially cast bullets were low on my priority but have since started also shooting them in my 357AR. I hadn't messed with the feed ramps after getting it to feed SJHP and pointy type jacketed like the Hornady 180gr SSP or Speer 180gr HCFN. I ordered a big bore extension from Tromix to test and figured I've got a couple more 44x1.6" uppers to use it on if it didn't work for 357. I had a 357AR pistol barrel that I wasn't using so it was my guinea pig to test feeding. After removing the 40 degree M4 trough style extension and installing the Tromix extension, it still wouldn't feed the cast bullets. Next up I tried a 9mm DI style which seemed to work a bit better. A couple degree angle change and leaving the remaining bit of the bottom lug greatly helped feeding the cast bullets. The jacketed bullets which would feed with the old style feed ramp even seem to feed a little smoother. Left to right, Tromix, M4 trough cut at 40 degrees, 9x19 DI 45 degree, latest 9x19 style at 42 degrees.

[Texas by God]

What a cool cartridge for the AR.
I failed to notice any chrono data but I'm guessing about 1700 fps with the 200 gr/16" barrel?

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

[ballistim]

I couldn't tell if the group buy would have the latest feed ramp with the modification for better cast bullet feeding from the GB forum at the other site or the mfg. order form.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Moleman-]

Texas by God, I haven't run the 200gr bullets over the Magneto Speed, but have with the 180's. Chrony average for 180gr Hornady 180gr SSP was 2140 fps out of my sons 15.5" (welded on muzzle brake to bring it up well over 16"). The Quickload guestimates have been fairly close to actual results. For instance. That load was (use at your own risk) 180gr Hornady SSP, 2.235" COL, 34.8gr water capacity RP case, 24.0gr W296. QuickLoad guestimate at 2119 fps at 52,454 psi for a 15.5" barrel. QL guessed within 21fps. Running a Sierra 200gr RN with W296 at around 53Kpsi the QL guess is 2035 fps. I have run some of the 208gr Lead WFN type bullets that came in at 215GR at around 1800fps no where near a top load. Just haven't had time to shoot more loads over the MS this summer.

ballistim, MDWS is making the barrels and it sounded like it would be a custom version perhaps of the older 762x39 feed ramp which is very close to what I've posted. Neither of us could find a 762x39 extension in stock anywhere. I was an off the shelf extension would work but it looks like a custom one is the way to go. The barrel buy thread is actually a hijack of build thread I'd posted over there back in July. The only contact I've had with MDWS has been in the build thread, so I don't know any more that you. I posted the updated feed ramp in hopes that it would save him some time and effort figuring out which style works the best.

[ballistim]

Texas by God, I haven't run the 200gr bullets over the Magneto Speed, but have with the 180's. Chrony average for 180gr Hornady 180gr SSP was 2140 fps out of my sons 15.5" (welded on muzzle brake to bring it up well over 16"). The Quickload guestimates have been fairly close to actual results. For instance. That load was (use at your own risk) 180gr Hornady SSP, 2.235" COL, 34.8gr water capacity RP case, 24.0gr W296. QuickLoad guestimate at 2119 fps at 52,454 psi for a 15.5" barrel. QL guessed within 21fps. Running a Sierra 200gr RN with W296 at around 53Kpsi the QL guess is 2035 fps. I have run some of the 208gr Lead WFN type bullets that came in at 215GR at around 1800fps no where near a top load. Just haven't had time to shoot more loads over the MS this summer.

ballistim, MDWS is making the barrels and it sounded like it would be a custom version perhaps of the older 762x39 feed ramp which is very close to what I've posted. Neither of us could find a 762x39 extension in stock anywhere. I was an off the shelf extension would work but it looks like a custom one is the way to go. The barrel buy thread is actually a hijack of build thread I'd posted over there back in July. The only contact I've had with MDWS has been in the build thread, so I don't know any more that you. I posted the updated feed ramp in hopes that it would save him some time and effort figuring out which style works the best.

Thanks for the information, Moleman!
I've been following this thread for awhile now, seems to be a perfect fit as a legal so. MI deer cartridge in the AR platform, I've been using an Encore with a .357 Max MGM rifle bbl. & before that a Contender Bellm chambered pistol bbl., so I'm sold on the .357 Max already.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Texas by God]

Maybe a dumb question but would .355 bullets negate the neck reaming/ turning step?

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

[Moleman-]

Might, or it just might be the same issue .003" smaller. The new neck area is really the old shoulder area on a 223 case. The case mouths stay pretty consistent but the further back you go the thicker it gets. Its the area near the base of the bullet that is too thick and causes the issues on some cases. I've tried several different ways to turn/ream the cases. The easiest is to just use a reamer pilot when trimming to length.

[woodbutcher]

:grin: This looks like fun.I`ll saddle up and go along for the ride.
Good luck.Have fun.Be safe.
Leo

[Moleman-]

No connection to it (other than being particular to the cartridge) but there was a group buy on barrels that sold out over on the modern sporting rifle site and they're taking names for a second run. It's doe season here for till the end of the year so there's still hope my son will get another deer this year with his 357AR. Hope by this time next year to be running the pointy 228gr -GC bullets in this pic for hunting. Need to test out expansion and possibly try soft point/HP. They cycle decently and shoot ok, but I haven't had time to work up a good load for them yet. They should work, if not I've tweaked the feed ramp a bit to feed the 208gr WFN-GC in the pic better.

[Moleman-]

Starline brass has made a couple runs of 223 basic brass. They're selling them 250 cases for $90 https://www.starlinebrass.com/brass-cases/223-Un-Tapered-W-O-Caliber-Designation/ So far I've bought three boxes. They cases only need trimmed to length and reamed (can be done at the same time) in order to make 357AR cases. They do shrink a little on the first firing, so I've been trimming them to max case length for the first firing. After forming the cases from 223 cases for years it almost seems like cheating. We had already loaded and sighted in with LC cased ammo for this past deer season and haven't taken them hunting yet but have been shooting them the past couple months.
My son ended up not taking any shots in the regular firearms season, but did shoot a doe in December for the late doe season. He took about a 90 yard shot at a mostly broadside doe and double lunged her. Huge blood trail for the 70 yards or so she ran to the edge of the field where she dropped. We'd set him up in a lay down goose blind in knee deep snow so he'd have a 150yd shot to the edge of the woods knowing the deer would end up closer. I was about 500yds away on the same field watching when the first doe came out and started walking towards where my son was. There was a slight dip in the field so I couldn't see him, but apparently he'd gotten cold (it was around zero) and popped his head down inside of the blind to warm up and have a snack. When he popped his head back up there were the deer walking right at him and eyeballing him. Only his head with an orange hat was visible as the blind was covered in snow so I don't think they knew what he was. They turned to his right slightly and kept walking eventually ignoring him. So he eased open the blind and took a shot. -6 and the wind had picked up by the time we got her dressed and in the back of the truck.

[Artful]

Good for him! - those chem heat packs might be something you need to give him in future - pop one in each wrist band and in the sock and one in the hat and your toasty.

I just started trying some Starline 308 brass and it's looking good - nice and consistent.

[Moleman-]

Thanks Artful, I'm always more excited when he gets a deer v/s when I get one. He had a couple hand warmer packs, but he gets cold easily like his mom. Keep telling him to grow his beard out so at least his face won't get cold.

[Artful]

https://2b9sqw2iiqxr36ntqa1exnal-wpengine.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/frozen-beard.jpg

[Moleman-]

This guy surfs Lake Superior every winter and gets epic ice beards.

[colonelhogan44]

Looks like the group buy barrels are at round 3 now. I'm thinking about picking one up -- anyone have experience with them?

[Moleman-]

Not yet, looking at getting one to compare up against mine.

[Oklahoma Rebel]

moleman, you suppose that beard is bullet resistant? its thick enough! or maybe that's the northern way of waxing?

[Moleman-]

I don't know, but it doesn't look like something I want to try.

[Moleman-]

Haven't updated the thread in a while. My son and I both filled out doe tags with a 357AR this year. He still hunts with the one we built and I occasionally hunt with the 18" that I built in 2012. His is the tan one, mine is the longer one, and the pistol is one I first hunted with in 2013. Starline is still making 223 basic brass that is easily trimmed/reamed and then loaded, although you get better results by annealing, expanding, sizing, trim/ream. MDWS is on their 4th or so round of barrels for them, and there have been a couple other guys who started making barrels as Manson reamers has my two reamer prints on file.

[MostlyOnThePaper]

Where did you get the case reamer?

Sent from my SM-G930P using Tapatalk

[Moleman-]

Forster, They'll even make custom ones if you want. I trim and ream the starline cases in one step. Think this pic shows a reamer pilot for a 44, but it's the same setup.

[Hamish]

Forster, They'll even make custom ones if you want. I trim and ream the starline cases in one step. Think this pic shows a reamer pilot for a 44, but it's the same setup.

234402

Looks like someone was paying attention,,,,

[Moleman-]

Interesting huh? It's hard to say for sure how long the case is but it sure looks similar. Hope it's 1.6" so there's a source of factory ammo for me! The article wasn't supposed to be out until Shot Show. I suppose we'll have to wait until Tuesday to find out the specs on it. :popcorn:

[P Flados]

Moleman likes the idea of factory ammo for his 357AR.

As I have stated elsewhere, my bet is that Winchester is trying to sell bolt guns in the straight wall hunting areas and has gone closer to 1.8" for the case so that it will not work properly in a AR-15 based gun.

[Moleman-]

Probably right, but if it is 1.8" I'd be tempted to go ahead and stuff one in an ar15 just for spite.

[Moleman-]

https://www.outdoorhub.com/news/2019/01/21/shot-2019-winchester-new-350-legend/ 1.71" case length. Won't gain anything with 180gr +pointy bullets due to COL limits of the mag, but would with lighter bullets. Pretty sure it would just require me to ream one of the barrels I already have .11" deeper.

[rockrat]

I see my next caliber upper for my AR!!!


Moleman--Who ground your reamer for you?

[Moleman-]

Manson, Dave is a nice guy to do business with.

[Michael J. Spangler]

Sign me up!!

[Tonto]

Looks interesting but that projected $9.99 a box ammo sounds strangely the same as when the 300 BLK was released. THAT said, it looks like a fun round for an AR

[dragon813gt]

Will be interesting to see the SAAMI specs. And if Starline starts making brass I shouldn’t have to ream brass anymore. Not like it’s hard to do. Just that I’d rather trim a little and be done. I have all the parts coming to put together an upper in 357 AR, barrel arrived last Friday. Putting it together is the easy part. Finding time to get to the range is the hard part.

[P Flados]

Over at MDWS, they have the standard 357AR barrels in stock for $325. I am sure that they could run their existing reamer in the extra 0.11" such that you would be up and running with a 350 legend AR in no time. However, act fast or you will have to wait on another batch.

https://www.maddogweapons.com/store/c40/357AR_Max_%28Rimless%29_Products.html

If you miss out on a batch, they do have a guy (Bruce, a.k.a Biggdawg) that has the reamer and does the one at a time work. My 357AR was a one off by Biggdawg. The one at a time jobs are good, but are not real fast.

[P Flados]

Rockrat,

PT&G look like they have allready set up a part number of 350 legend reamers. However, there is a good chance the 350 legend will be more than a little different than the 357AR since it was designed for factory ammo and for bolt guns.

For an AR-15 based hunting gun that can shoot the 350 Legend, the existing 357AR reamers are probably a better bet if you really want your own. If you just want a gun, see the previous post.

[hollywood63]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Io4Lw1Ln6qc

[cwlongshot]

This guy says 9MM in a 556 case...

Yet, directly from CMMG in emails to me:

"Technical Support
Wed, Jan 30, 3:17 PM (2 days ago)

CW,

From everything I've heard form our R&D guys, who have been working with Winchester, this IS a 357 bullet, actually. Are you sure you looked at the right drawing? I've attached a .pdf of the ammo drawing for you, just to be sure. I'm seeing .357 as the bullet used in these drawings."

Remember BOTH this email and the Video are from CMMG. Truth and continuity in journalism at its finest. :bigsmyl2:

IMHO, its this ignorant 9MM does everything mentality. the current nearly unanimous Bullet LOVE for the 9MM and, so hope to ride on that with 9MM followers... I have see written and chuckled, but ,must agree, they should have named it 9MM Creedmoor and it wouldn't matter what ballistics or dimensions it had... it would probably be accepted with open arms. :veryconfu :shock:

I know, I know, its the world today and I'm old/old school. If I go this route, I'll go with Molemans version. Its a bummer cause it shure had me a lil excited.


CW

[pmer]

This guy says 9MM in a 556 case...

Yet, directly from CMMG in emails to me:

"Technical Support
Wed, Jan 30, 3:17 PM (2 days ago)

CW,

From everything I've heard form our R&D guys, who have been working with Winchester, this IS a 357 bullet, actually. Are you sure you looked at the right drawing? I've attached a .pdf of the ammo drawing for you, just to be sure. I'm seeing .357 as the bullet used in these drawings."

Remember BOTH this email and the Video are from CMMG. Truth and continuity in journalism at its finest. :bigsmyl2:

IMHO, its this ignorant 9MM does everything mentality. the current nearly unanimous Bullet LOVE for the 9MM and, so hope to ride on that with 9MM followers... I have see written and chuckled, but ,must agree, they should have named it 9MM Creedmoor and it wouldn't matter what ballistics or dimensions it had... it would probably be accepted with open arms. :veryconfu :shock:

I know, I know, its the world today and I'm old/old school. If I go this route, I'll go with Molemans version. Its a bummer cause it shure had me a lil excited.


CW

I think you're fine here is a link from Winchester, they are calling it a .357 the guy on youtube is probably off mark.


https://winchester.com/350-Legend

After suffering my El cheapo .458 SOCOM I'd be more skiddish about how tight the chamber/throat is.. Have them send you a fired case! LOL

[Michael J. Spangler]

Here you go.

https://saami.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/01/350-Legend-Public-Introduction.pdf

[McFred]

Hey, whatever the diameters/lengths are I'm just excited that there might be a a pile of inexpensive .355-.357" 1:16 twist barrels I can use for my own wildcat projects! There might also be a resurgence in pointy middleweight 35cal projectiles to support this cartridge too. You Levergun enthusiasts might not be very interested but bolt gun guys like me are happy to have more product selection.

[P Flados]

Over at the other thread (link below), I already noted that from the SAAMI specs, it looks like the 350 Legend is 0.357" ammo fired in a 0.355" gun.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?375266-New-35-caliber

Now for an update on some 357AR (357 Max-Rimless) Boolit progress.

I have been working with my MDWS supplied barrel and my made at home mold for custom 180 and 200 grain cast boolits for right at one month.

I have gotten most of my function problems beaten down (I think) and am working on accuracy issues. The gun seems to want to be accurate, but has been plagued by POI shifts and/or flyers. However, I still have achieved more than a few sub 2 MOA groups from PC coated, non-gas check 180 gr bullets in the 2000 -2100 fps range.

For this gun my focus has been PC coated, NLG, non-gas check small meplat boolits intended for smoothing feeding in the AR. My boolits also incorporate what I call "forming" in lieu of sizing. I first discussed using this process to get near perfect boolit bases last March in post 4 of:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?356141-Specific-future-bullet-molds-just-for-PC-Cast-bullets&p=4309073#post4309073

Updates on my use of "forming" included post 22, 30, 32, 36 39 of:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?358066-PC-d-GC-d-and-Swaged-boolits!

With "forming" working pretty good for my 120 gr and 160 gr boolits in my 357 Max handgun loads, I had hoped they would also work well in the 357AR. The bottom line was "not really". The 357AR is hard on some boolits and it is picky for feeding. It jams or beats up boolits with meplats over around 0.180" and it does not like anything with a SWC type of shoulder.

My answer was to make my own reamer and use a Lee blank mold. I was trying for boolits shaped a lot like the Speer 180. For my own use I am using my "forming" to get the final shape and the near perfect edge on the base. Here is a photo of some early test boolits:

235141

I also adjusted the reamer and cut a second 180 / 200 gr mold to be used as a loner for others to try.

235142

235144

Some as cast 180s

235145

Some as cast 200s

235146

I have a lot more details on the above over at:

https://mdws.forumchitchat.com/post/357ar-357-max-for-the-modern-boolit-man-9735573?trail=100

[P Flados]

I really struggled early one.

I am convinced that my biggest problem was combination of no "hot small rifle primers" and a batch of "hard to ignite" H110.

Shopping around I found some deals on primers and powder and eventually found a combination that shows promise.

Today the gun did well, the loads functioned great, and a least one load is now reliably under 2 MOA.

I think I will be able to "fine tune" in some improvement, but I am much happier.

The other "good news" is that I have just under 24 lbs of this powder and just under 15K of these primers. And since I make my own boolits, I am not going to have any supply problems for feeding this gun.

The downside for the moment is that with 180s, the gun is shooting better down at 1700 fps. With both 180s and 200s, I have been over 2000 but my best groups at near max are closer to 3 MOA.

236585

[Moleman-]

I haven't shot any cast ones lighter than the 208gr shown in post #49 and lately have mostly been shooting the 228gr NOE shown in the same post. Speeds 1700-1900's with gas checks and Lyman alox #2857277 stick lube. Usually hovering around 1"-1.5" which I'm good with. I seem to get smaller groups slower than with faster, but I usually go with what cycles the gun good and gives the best accuracy. I wonder if the plain base is getting distorted by the gas port and causing the groups to open up. Just wondering, never used powder coated bullets but I know if I push my plain base 9x19 DI loads too hot I'll get lead on the bolt tail. But the gas port is very close to the chamber on it.

[P Flados]

Prior to PC, finding a gun that would shoot boolits with no leading and ok accuracy at 1700 fps with a plain base would have been a good find.

I may or may not have maxed out for good accuracy with the 180 plain base. I do plan to keep at it to see if I can both find better accuracy at the current speed and to see what kind of groups I can get at higher speeds.

I am pondering the merging the beverage can check concept with my forming operation to just to see if it would make a difference.

I also need to find a "sweet spot" with my 200s.

If you want to play with some "made for 357AR" boolits, I could send you a batch. Your only cost would be a good faith effort to use them and report results.

[P Flados]

It has been a while since I posted here, but not because I have been idle.

Although I found that the 180 shoots pretty good out to 100 yards (1900 fps / 1.5 moa), groups at 200 yards have been closer to 6 moa.

I started working on 202s but had mixed results. With my current powder (WC 680 - same as 1680), the case is right at 100% load density. I found that my mixed brass was giving me vertical stringing even with weight sorting the brass.

I made up a bunch of converted brass from one batch of PMC headstamp, and results improved. I got good 100 yard groups with the 202s at 2030 fps with no pierced primers. When pushed to 2070 fps, they still shot good, but I got some flat / pierced primers.

I did some 200 yard shooting today with loads where I tried to split the difference on pressure. I still got some piercing, so I think I will call it around 2050 fps (no chrono today). I was happy with the sub 4" group with the 202s at 200 yards even with significant wind gusts.

I will try to increase the OAL just enough to eliminate the pierced primers. Another 0.010" - 0.020" should do it.

Another neat thing was bullet impact. Currently I am about 1.5" high at 50, 2" high at 100 and dead on at 200. I think I will dial down a couple of clicks to get 1.5" high at 100 and 1" low at 200.

238889

[Willbird]

It has been a while since I posted here, but not because I have been idle.

Although I found that the 180 shoots pretty good out to 100 yards (1900 fps / 1.5 moa), groups at 200 yards have been closer to 6 moa.

I started working on 202s but had mixed results. With my current powder (WC 680 - same as 1680), the case is right at 100% load density. I found that my mixed brass was giving me vertical stringing even with weight sorting the brass.

I made up a bunch of converted brass from one batch of PMC headstamp, and results improved. I got good 100 yard groups with the 202s at 2030 fps with no pierced primers. When pushed to 2070 fps, they still shot good, but I got some flat / pierced primers.

I did some 200 yard shooting today with loads where I tried to split the difference on pressure. I still got some piercing, so I think I will call it around 2050 fps (no chrono today). I was happy with the sub 4" group with the 202s at 200 yards even with significant wind gusts.

I will try to increase the OAL just enough to eliminate the pierced primers. Another 0.010" - 0.020" should do it.

Another neat thing was bullet impact. Currently I am about 1.5" high at 50, 2" high at 100 and dead on at 200. I think I will dial down a couple of clicks to get 1.5" high at 100 and 1" low at 200.

238889

I mentioned this in the other thread, but wind could be messing with you at 200. That group is almost a classic "weather report" group :-). It shows the angled aspect that I mentioned.

I worked this up on the 180 Single Shot Pistol bullet at 2000 fps, it shows the deviation from just a 2mph wind at 200 yards

https://i.imgur.com/dMb429H.png

Bill

[Willbird]

There is actually a discipline for plain based cast bullet shooting.

https://www.castbulletassoc.org/benchrest-rules

5.5 Plain Base Bullet Class - Any rifle meeting the requirements of 5.4 (Unrestricted Rifle) may be used in the Plain Base Bullet (no metallic gas checks) Class. The Plain Base Bullet Class does not prevent the use of plain base bullets in other classes. Breech seating is allowed.

As I recall one thing allowed was a wad under the bullet, some used one punched from plastic milk jugs.

Looks like the 200 yard aggregate record for five 5 shot groups is .903" not far behind the other stuff that allows gas checks :-)

[P Flados]

Depending on angle, wind causes both horizontal and vertical POI shifting.

Wind has been very much a concern and I really want to get out on a calm day.

I am retired now which helps. The outdoor range I go to is closed Monday & Tuesday and too crowded on the weekends so I get three possible shooting days a week. I use the "Windfinder" App that will forecast a week out and I watch for good shooting days. However, I have not had a calm shooting day since before I had loads that needed 200 yard shooting.

[Mike in MD]

Going to re - re - resurrect this thread. I've been watching from day one. Back then I decided to go .357 max in an Encore. Now that MD had OK'd a straight wall case for deer season, I want more. So I wanted to revisit this thread and see what was happening. I'm thinking more along the lines of a bolt action. But with Covid, Joe heading for the White House, Remington in bankruptcy, and general craziness, I'm having trouble finding a Rem 700 in .223 boltface. The plan is to run as long as possible in brass 1.78 if possible. 1.75 is doable based on brass. Then use either a 35-200 GC cast boolit or .358 35 Rem bullet, either Sierra or Hornady round nose or possibly one of the Hornady flex tip bullets.

Moleman How deep will that reamer cut?

Thanks

[Moleman-]

Mike in MD, I'm aware of a couple guys on the MDWS site that have made a savage and an encore .358"x1.79". They're reporting 2500fps+ with a Speer 180gr HCFN. I one of them used a 357AR-2 Manson Reamer on the savage and the other used a custom reamer from Manson on the encore.