sub compact 9mm leading

[leeggen]

Recently I have aquired a sig 290RS 9mm pistol. I reload for a couple 9mm full size but never for a compact. So I contacted one of our many intelligent and ask for advise. He has been very helpful and I thank him again.
Now we are using the TL356-124TC cast boolit 50/50 ww/pb water dropped with LLA with paste wax thinned with mineral spirits- 2 coats, the dia. is 358 and the barrel mics at .3565. Now I am not looking for advice but just wanted to let others know what results we are having, but advice will be accepted and appreciated.
We have tried several powders 5 rounds each of 5 different load size and of 5 different powder loads in each of Bullseye, AA5, Power Pistol, Bludot and AA2, that being a total of 25 rounds of each powder. After the first round of 5 we had leading in the first 1/2 inch of the barrel but I noticed 2 grooves had leading 1/2 in. longer than all others and only 1/2 in. in all others. In all 5 loads of each powder it was the same I/2 in. and 1 in in the 2 grooves beside each other.That is 125 rounds thru this pistol with the same leading results every time. After a real scrubbing we found just ahead of the forcing cone for about a 1/2 the barrel is rough looking. Done by light shining thru the barrel but not by using a bore scope, just the eye. The 2 grooves that had leading about 1 in. long the land between had a chattered spot,like a ripple just to the edge of the land. I am going to use some compound and some FMJ bullits and try to polish the barrel in those areas. I will follow up here as the testing progresses, don't be in a hurry cause I am slow at this with the farm and all but I will add more as we go along.
when we shot the test rounds it was interesting cause this little pistol shot a 4in. group at about 10 yd, free hand, and they were about 1 1/4 inches low and to the right the same distance. My hands didn't fit this pistol real well but the extended mag helped alot. My son shot this pistol and it shot the same except a tighter group, Dang kids just have to show off.LOL
I found it real interesting that all 125 rounds,(5rounds of 5 different loads of 5 different powders) leaded the same pattern in the barrel and shot , for the most part, the same grouping. This adiction is great cause I went out and bought a Springfield XD mod 2 in 9mm. The testing of it will begin in a week or so.
I will not send this gun back to the factory cause I want to cure it myself, I'm just like that. Life is great and the help we get on here is just mind blowing. Thanks again,
CD

[popper]

This adiction is great cause I went out and bought a Springfield XD mod 2 in 9mm
Now get some HiTek coating powder and you are set to go. I like WST vs 231 for 130gr. & use the teacup hold with the short mag. Extended mag tingles the little finger.

[runfiverun]

the powder coat could work, I have seen it overcome a few other issues where jacketed and cast were both unsatisfactory for some reason.

I would contact Beagle 333 in the coating section and ask him for advice on setting your loads oal up and possibly about coating some boolits for you.

[Andy]

Hi Leeggen,

I had similar problems in a glock 9mm subcompact with a bore that slugged the exact same diameter as yours, with the exact same lee bullet. I was using ww+2% tin alloy though. I did not fully test through a solution but it was clear to me in the process that my leading was primarily caused by minute shaving of the bullet when I seated it, due to not using an M die initially.

You said the diameter is .358, just want to confirm that you are actually sizing each bullet to .358 through a sizing die. Related to that, I didn't have any luck using Lee liquid alox on mine, I got severe leading when I did that, particularly when trying unsized bullets.

When I went to bullets sized .357 or .358 and lubed with 50/50 nra the leading became manageable and I haven't had a chance to work further on it yet as I sold the mold for unrelated reasons.

[Mk42gunner]

I'll be following this thread; the only advice I can give is to maybe try another lube, but with chatter marks in the barrel I don't really see that helping much.

I looked at one of those little SIG's last year, I was impressed because I could actually see the sights on such a small pistol. May have to revisit that idea.

Robert

[leeggen]

I get some time I want to put some polishing compound on some lead slug and see if it will help smooth the barrel up. Guess it can't hurt if I take my time. Thinking ofmakeing some lead slugs just a little larger than the land dia. so I can work on the bad spot at the forcing cone. That little pistol is nice and alittle getting used to it I'm sure I can tighten up the group.
I don't want to go to pcing, I already have taken up part of the wifes canning shelves with reloading gear,LOL and a oven would be even more. I'll work thru this til I get it fixed, just changing one thing at a time.
Just kind of old style guy, you know if it worked for granpa it should work for me.
Thanks,
CD

[Rattlesnake Charlie]

Sounds like a rough bore. Fire lapping always works for me. I've done it to close to a dozen handguns.

[GooseGestapo]

It's the TL Lee molds. Switch to the 120 TC conventional mold and size to .357".

I have several TL molds. None work with 9mm or .40/10mm pressures/velocities. Even powder coated and sized .357", my 124gr TL mold key-holes from my 3 S&W PerfCtr 9's.

[leeggen]

I will do some lapping of the bore but I am going to try to work primarly on the rifling between the to longest leading areas.
I don't feel like it is the lube and this is just for me. I have had very good success with lla/paste wax in the 40 and 9 using full speed loads to slowwwww loads. Seems to me and as I have learned and been told everything happens in the first 1 inch of the barrel with the exception of running out of lube and that will get you leading through out and at the far end of the barrel. I will do a slug just ahead of the forcing cone and see if diam. is consistant through out.
The thing that sticks in my mind is that just 2 of the grooves are leading consistantly no matter how fast or how slow or what powder. I'll find the answer and will post more as I can.
Thanks to all that have pm'd me and have posted on this thread. Your intelligents and experianse exceeds mine.
CD

[leeggen]

Well I had a chance to work on the litte 9mm tonight. I broke out the oil, a green scrubber pad(fiber material one) and some tooth paste. rapped some of the green pad around the brass brush and a way we go. Oiled the pad really good and started working the pad in and out of the barrel. Next I added lots of tooth paste to the pad and brush. I used this again on the inside of the barrel. I scrubbed and scrubbed, changeing the position on evry stroke. After that was done I cleaned the barrel with water and a clean pad. Looking down the barrel after all this I can only see a very small area that is still rippled, but noways near like before.After the scrubbing I used Johnson paste wax and coverd the barrel real good ,let it dry then polished it out, I done that to the barrel three times. NOW that barrrel is shining just has one place that is still a tad ripplie but it is looking nice, like it had 300 rounds of FMJ shot thru it. I wonder if maybe some of the copper or brass had stuck to the sides of the wall and caused the bad apperance. After all the work was done my son comes by and wants to take that pistol on a trip this week it the truck. It is his so dad can't say no about that. We will crank a couple hundred jacketed thru it and see how it looks then we will see what it looks like. I beleive this work will help it out. Be nice if we can get it so we can shoot cast boolits in it. I probably will and just try a little of everything to see what works. I am imprest with how well the tooth paste clean that barrel up but it sure was shining when he left with it.
Well thought I would give an update this far and I'll give another when I can shoot a couple hundred cast boolits thru it myself.
Thanks to all that responded keep watching for the rest of the story.
CD

[runfiverun]

those scrubbies are more aggressive than most people realize.
I have used them as a sandpaper on car body's several times, they will smooth Bondo out pretty easily.

[mdi]

Hi-Tek/Powder coating is a good idea, but I knew my 9mm shot well with jacketed(!) and plated, but perhaps I just figgered it as a challenge and I didn't want to rely on "special bullets" to stop leading. I went through alloys, soft to lino hardness (medium hardness; 15 or so BHN worked well), different powders (slower Unique and Universal work) and lube ("homemade" carnauba red). With my alloy and mid to upper loads of Unique, my 125 gr. Lee RNFP lubed with C-Red, and .003" over groove diameter leads very little, if any...

"Normally" leading in the chamber end of the barrel indicate undersized bullets, perhaps pulling and measuring a loaded bullet to see if loading reduced the OD?

[leeggen]

Just a quick line to let others know I have not forgoten about this thread. My son is bigger than me, nah just joking, he has it strapped to his hip like a growth. Guess I will black male him so I can complete the testing. Also run another casting of 9mm bollits, the other 9's a re fine with it so now to test these on his little sig. He really fell in love with this pistol and just doesn't want to part with it for more than a few shots.
CD

[Boolseye]

TL can be a problem, endless threads on the subject.

[JeffG]

I've got an LC9 that was rough as a cob when I got it. I figured that was why the price was so good. Using my usual 356-120-TC, it has strings of lead coming out of the barrel. I also had some heavily LLA lubed TL356-120-TC that I tried, and that effectively stopped the leading. By the time I'd run 400-500 through it, the bore was nicely polished and either of the billets would work fine, but it prefers the TL design. I no longer need the heavy LLA.

You've put forth some effort in this, very nice.

[GhostHawk]

As regarding the tumble lube design boolits. I too had troubles with the .356 124 gr. But my .358 158 gr round nose had no problems at all. Eventually for my 9's I bought the .358 124 gr conventional lubed boolit which was dropping at .359 to .360 and loaded them as cast into 9mm.

Viola, no leading, keyholing went away, patterns became groups.

I think the 9mm is a bit tricky as it needs in many cases an extra couple thousandth ie .358 but slipping that into a case without swaging it down can be tricky. Also some chambers seem to be tight and will only take so much. Short and fat seems to work better than long and tapered.

I am resizing those cases but barely. I am depriming with Frankford Arsenal hand deprimer, citric acid wash, then size, prime.
So I set my sizing die up a fair bit so case mouths are not squeezed so tight. YMMV but thus far this has been working for me. Altgough to be honest I'm not sure those rounds would chamber in all guns. But they plunk well into my Hipoint C9 and my 9mm handi rifle stubb barrel.

[Tackleberry41]

I have not found much use for the Lee 9mm tumble lube bullet. Tumble might be a good word to use, not from lubing. Those TL bullets just do not have alot of bearing surface, just the 2 small bands. And can often get swaged down loading them. Mold I have probably needs a leementing. Maybe even enough to mostly get rid of the tumble lube grooves. But I have a nice Lyman 147gr that cast such nice bullets. I was surprised at the results I got with the 147gr in a short barrel gun. I am running a browning HP and a S&W shield. As expected various jacketed bullets, I got more velocity in the longer barrel. But it was the opposite with the cast 147gr. It was faster in the shorter barrel.

[Boolseye]

It's funny, 'cause some of the other TL bullets are great (TL 312-160 2R, TL358-158SWC and TL452-230 2R). For the 9mm, however, very few have success.