Mini Lathe

[Urny]

The time has come for this ol' boy to get himself a lathe. Trouble is, all my experience with lathe's has been with really big stuff. Talking with Powderburner Dean will be part of this, of course, but also want to pick the brains of other members here. I do not want to devote much space to a lathe and its' accessories.

Been looking at Harbor Freight, Sherline, and Grizzly websites and seeing lots of goodies. There is a Harbor Freight in Sparks/Reno, and also an outlet for Sherline there, but I don't know where I would actually see Grizzly's products. If there any other brands or shops I should be looking at, please say so.

What are some good websites to visit to read about others experiences and recommendations about little lathes? You guys have these secret's hidden somewhere.

[Char-Gar]

Many of your Asian lathes are of very inferior quality materials and won't do close work. The Jet is the very best of the bunch and Jet makes a small lathe.

I bought a 9X18 Logan. This is a quality American product of good materials. Mine was made in 1947 but has been well cared fore and still does high quality work. I paid $800.00 for it, but it came with extensive tooling, including three chucks, a tailstock drill chuck and a Palmgren milling attatchment. There are also boxes of smaller stuff like bits, reamers etc. etc. etc.

[44man]

I agree, I bought a Smithy because I couldn't find a used, good one and don't have much money. I have a devil of a time working around the slop. After using this thing, I could be a whiz on a good one. :lol:

[Buckshot]

.............Urny, The best of the small lathes would be (not in any particular order) a 9" South Bend, similar Logan, Rockwell, or maybe even a smaller Atlas. These are all American iron that were sturdy machines and the quality was built in when Americans wouldn't abide crap, even if it was cheap.

The problem here is availability and condition. Condition is EVERYTHING! I would pay a bunch more for a like new older American lathe that had zero tooling then a tooled out the butt, worn out beater. Tools over time will represent a considerable outlay, but the beauty is you can buy them as you need them stretched out over time.

Availability can be a real booger. In So. California due to the automotive, aerospace, and aviation industry used machine tools are pretty common. Other places it's not so easy and what might be around might not suit. You also have the fact that you might look for months or longer before finding something. And you might not EVER, so.....................

My suggestion would be to follow your first instinct and buy a foreign import. I would suggest you consider Jet, Grizzly, and then Harbor Freight last. You have an ENCO there in Reno I believe it is, and I'd check out their online website. Many times they'll put lathes and other machine tools on sale and have free shipping thrown in.

There is one thing about Asian lathes. Many are made for various sellers and distributers in the same factory. They're just badged differently or painted a different color. I would suggest you go with a reputable outfit that will support the machine you buy. Actually HF is good about this, but I'd still go with the other's machines. The issues are that one retialer or distributer wants his lathe made to a 'price'. They'll take whatever comes off the line.

Some companies have their own inspectors on the site, who actually go behind the factory employed inspectors that release the machines, and do thier own accuracy and spec/tolerance/operation inspections. There are some very fine Asian lathes produced in Japan, Taiwan and Korea. Even China is getting with the program in the quality deptartment. You used to find some of these lathes with clods of casting sand still stuck in corners and painted over, or paint where it shouldn't be.

A place where there is still trouble is in the electrics. Some companies have the lathes shipped without motors or even switches, and then install them here. Grizzly has a large facility in Washington which does this, and also repairs some of their machine tools. Harbor Freight had a bandsaw that had an open framed motor! A few metal filings in there and the smoke came out. When the smoke gets out of a motor it's a goner!

Your mentioning Sherline suggests to me that you're looking at a Mini-Lathe? Let me say one thing first to get it out of the way. You can do little stuff on a big lathe, but you cannot do big stuff on a little lathe. Look and think closely about what you plan on doing and what you would LIKE to be able to do.

With that out of the way, probably the very best buy in a small lathe is one of the little 7" jobs. These are offered by several different outlets and may have a few minor differences, but basicly they're the same machine.
Some are listed as 7x10", and there are 7x12"s. For their size and price they're amazingly capable little dudes. For less then $400 all you have to do is uncrate'em, clean'em up (like a milsurp :roll: ), plug them in and make something.

What's amazing to me is that they do stuff some larger imports don't. Thier spindles will reverse, as well as the leadescrew. This means you can do lefthand threads, but more importantly you can thread AWAY from a shoulder or other feature. One guy can pick them up and lean'em in the closet or push them to the end of the workbench.

The problem with them is pretty much that they turn too fast. Or way faster then you really want for threading. Do a Google search for 7x10 lathe and stand by for hours of reading! I like reading through those places because it's cool seeing what the lathe owners have done to improve thier machines and the projects they've made. Another selling point is since they're small, tooling is small and small is less expensive.

The various Asian 9x20's seen to not be held in such high regard, as their size increase didn't seem to also include a comensurate increase in mass and rigidity with size or price increase. There are also Yahoo groups dedicated to the 9x20 just as the 7x10/12 machines. Asian 10" and 11" machines are scarce, and really don't begin to measure up until you reach the 12" size. Now you're into a machine that can do some work, but also close to a couple thousand bucks or more, depending.

What seems odd to me is that several of the cheaper 12" machines don't have a very big spindle bore. Some only being 1". Yet you can get a South Bend heavy 10 with a 1-3/8 bore or like my 11" Logan also with a 1-3/8" spindle bore. The attraction here is the ability to use 5C collets. You can buy a 5C collet chuck to stick on a smaller lathe's spindle. One problem here is that it extends it out. The farther you get from the spindle nose, the more accuracy you loose unless it's supported by the tailstock.

If you're looking at a 3 in 1 machine, you should definately get the very best you can afford. Some guys really dislike the 3 in 1's and say thay don't do anything well, being a compromise in both lathe and mill department. Plus you have to teardown setups going from one to another. They also share most the other import lathes faults of a much too high backgear speed. However you can do good work on one and some of the newer ones have improved greatly.

My first 'real' machine was a *** from HF. It was manual everything and only had 3 spindle speeds, starting with fast and going up, and ditto the mill portion. However, I somehow managed to make a TON of usefull and accurate stuff on it. Sometimes it took a LOOOONG time to get it done, and I made some pure scrap, but it was sure a step up from a 3/8 VSR drill motor clamped in the benchvise :D !

As a matter of fact, I still use the mill portion of that machine and have done some nifty stuff on it.

To tell the truth, in the 16 months since getting my 11x36 Logan, there have been only a couple things I've made that couldn't have been made on one of those little 7" machines. On the other hand, there have been many times I've DONE stuff you couldn't do on one. Mainly depth of cuts, boring or drilling. But with lighter cuts and more time, most could have been as nicely made. I like my lathe and the size suits me. It's all perspective as the guys with their 16-20" LeBlonds and Monarch's would look at mine as a veritable toy. It's funny though that some of those guys with huge hulking 8,000 lb machines also have a nice little 10" machine tucked away somewhere too!

When you have to use an overhead crane to get a chuck off and on, it becomes not so much fun.

Be sure to register at The Home SHop Machinist and Practical Machinist bullitin boards. They both have search functions and you can learn a bunch. For the past 16 months I've partially occupied myself by not only posting, but reading about 8 years worth of archived threads.

Beware of E-Bay! There are some really great tool buys. If you're not carefull you can rapidly run yourself into the poorhouse!

http://www.fototime.com/{EEB6BC8B-935E-4EC5-9637-969919E1F776}/picture.JPGhttp://www.fototime.com/{CB70CDD1-D1FB-4E75-8552-5FE8A1427EFA}/picture.JPG
Cocking knob I made for a Winchester 22 semi-auto (on left). Broken original on right. On right, what's noce about 5C's, small stuff!

http://www.fototime.com/{ADE09400-4F0C-4FC1-AEFD-582E58166EB9}/picture.JPG
http://www.fototime.com/{10CD410A-73E3-4D60-95B3-06A10C6E330C}/picture.JPG
The first REAL machine, and on the right some of the MANY usefull things I made on it. These were made long ago to load the 8x56R milsurp brass.

Whatever size or type of machine you decide on, do a couple weeks research around on the web. Locate distributers and see what they offer. Check out Enco, MSC, Grizzly, Wholesale tool, Bills Tool crib, and Rutland-Airgas to name a few. All those machines are NOT created equal.

.................Buckshot

[Urny]

Gosh Buckshot, how do I answer all that? The first lathe I used was an old South Bend, 36" bed I think, at the South San Francisco Annex, San Francisco Mint. The packaging facility for proof and mint sets, that was. Long gone now. Anyway, the lathe was leather belt drive, and only had long axis power drive. If I was willing to use that much space in my half of the garage (my workshop), that is what would be on the menu. Other lathes used were double that size and up. Don't want a three in one because of weight and clumsiness issues. Used we-made-it-in-America machines are essentially non-existant in metropolitan Elko. Therefor, shipping would be pretty expensive on the bigger stuff.

What I want to make are sizer inserts for my inline sizer, and various dies and parts that the factories make to specs that don't suit my guns. Also would like to make my own expanders for Lyman M dies, for the same reasons. Maybe a boolit mold or three some day. Also, one of those dies to accept Lyman and RCBS sizer dies would be useful.

I like the idea of the reversing thread capability, as maybe someday the chance to rebarrel my Norwegian Krag would present itself. That would require a bigger lathe than presently, oops, currently anticipated. This may be the spot to note that Powder Burner Dean has essentially abandoned one of those 7" imports because of a failed electrical unit, that pretty much costs half as much as a new machine. That does not speak well to the long term serviceability of such. I suspect that the American made Sherline would be much better in that regard.

Still, the 7x12 Chinee or Taiwanese is probably what will wind up on the bench. So much value for the dollar, and lots of tooling available. My ebay habit is already financially debilitating, just what we need around here is another place to shop there. Maybe Dean and meself can figure out a way to use the old lather without buying the new switch, and I'll buy that. If he's willing to sell that is. I've got plenty of time.

[Urny]

Neglected to mention, you've some mighty nice looking work there.

[Buckshot]

Neglected to mention, you've some mighty nice looking work there.

..........Thanks Urny. This stuff is just fascinating to me. This evening I repaired a faulty hollowpoint job someone had done on a Ly 358156, hollowpointed an RCBS 30-180 for another guy, and finished up a loaded cartridge hollow pointer for another poster here.

If you check out the various places that cater to the 7x10-12 lathes, users groups, not sellers you'll see many of the things they've done, changed, re-worked and improved. These are the same things that most any new lathe owner does, and not just to these little mini-lathes. They're pretty nice little machines.

.............Buckshot

[Ballistics in Scotland]

There is a lot more there about lathes than I know, and especially about those on the American market. In general bigger is better, all right. But for some people that isn't possible.

When I'm in Scotland I can use a friend's large Colchester lathes, but the one I own is a Myford ML10, with 6½in swing and 13in. between centres, and no gap in the bed. For a lathe this size a fixed steady, which you can clamp to the bed, is very useful. You can then remove the tailstock and hold a barrel so that it extends beyond the end of the lathe. I've threaded full-size barrels this way, holding them on a brass mandrel soft-soldered into a short chamber, and cutting from right to left away from the barrel shoulder.

For the apartment dweller who needs something really tiny, there are mini-lathes such as the Austrian Emco Unimat combination machine tool. The obsolete rod-bed models are probably best, and are common (though never cheap) on eBay, along with their multitude of accessories. You can screw this to a wooden base and pack it away complete with chips. Mine is in front of me now, in Saudi Arabia, where it came as airline baggage.

This and its rivals are really tiny, but better than no lathe at all. I have turned steel scope bases with a tapered bore to match a barrel contour, by epoxying them to the faceplate and shaping the outside around the inside afterwards, and I could find a way to hold and true up a pair of mould blocks if I had to. No better cartridge case and bullet lathe exists, especially with its arbour and little circular saws. I modified my arbour to 5/8in. bore instead of 15mm.

I'd agree that quality is more important than accessories, but finding out that a particular accessory can't be found anywhere is another matter. A chuck with four independent jaws is really worth having, and not just because bullet moulds are rectangular. The three-jaw self centring chuck is liable to become self off-centring with wear or excessive muscle on the wrench, but the independent chuck can always be adjusted to true something up. Some Taiwanese and other imported lathes are far better than they used to be, and perfectly adequate for the amateur user. But it would be as well to choose one with taper roller bearings. I think plain bearings, although quite reliable when well done, are more dependent on quality of manufacture.

eBay is a good source of lathes and information, because it will quickly tell you for what there are plenty of accessories around. You may get a good but unloved elderly lathe cheaper from someone who needs space, than a used machine dealer. But you really do need to see it before you buy, since the most scrupulously observed return privileges leave you with a lot of trouble. You first purchase, BEFORE the lathe, should be a dial indicator with a magnetic base which sticks to the lathe bed, to check lateral and longitudinal movement of the headstock. It will be useful when you have your lathe, too.

[NVcurmudgeon]

Good to see your "Ballisitcs in Scotland" handle again. Now that you are aboard, the average IQ of posters has greatly improved.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

Thank you for your kind remarks. Are you the same person we remember as just plain Curmudgeon on the late lamented Shooterstalk?

[Catshooter]

Urny,

I can tell you from my experiences that the Sherline equipment, if large enough to do what you want done, will do what you want. (Does that make sense?) I have their larger lathe and mill and they are as accurate as you want them to be, and totally trouble free. Some of those accessories are mighty handy, too.

All American made, and all the parts fit on any machine. I wanted something small and light enough to move by myself. If you go to their website photos of my set up are there in the small shops area.

I love mine!


Cat

[Four Fingers of Death]

Hemingway is turning in his grave no doubt.

I don't own a lathe, but I hope to rectify that when I'm through travelling around the state with work.

I have six friends with lathes and mills, etc. They are all fastidious machinists and turn out some very impressive work. One guy has a farm and has an old but very good quality BBBBBBBBBIGGGG lathe, about six foot between centres. The chucks are as big as truck wheels. It is in very good condition, he got it for peanuts at an auction and has got it set up nicely. It is accurate enough to make parts for his restored speedway cars, including engine parts and he races these old girls and they really scream. One other guy has a big 3-4' between centres industrial lathe and is very happy with it. Four have lathes which are about 20" between centres and only one is happy with the smaller size, he builds minature/model steam locomotives and it is plenty big enough. The other three are always complaining about the size of their lathes and plan to upgrade as soon as possible. One is a retired engineer (he used to be the chief engineer at the Small Arms Factory at Lithgow and was in charge of the styer and SAW production, very smart cookie and really knows his stuff. The other two are fitters and turners, who have been retrenched and now work as correctional officers. These guys know their oats and all but one say the same thing, mo bigger, mo better!

I don't know what I will end up with. The older I get the less interested I get in rebarreling, etc and the more I get interested in making small tools, dies and boolit swaging gear, etc. I would really like to make a mega tight spec'ed 44 mag and 45 colt ruger SAs, by opening up 357 cylinders carefully and really making a couple of shooters. I would like to try the same with a few colts, making up a couple of Elmer Keith type sixguns in 44 Special. I will need to get a lot more experience befre I start tha sort of stuff though. For the sort of work I want to do, a small lathe would do the trick.

But before I get the lathe, there is the new saddle, and horse that I need, swiss ex mil rifle, matched pair of 45 ruger convertible blackhawks, 3006 custom rifle to celebrate the 100 ye aniversary next year, horse float and pack horse, motor cycle, yarda, yarda, yarda. Dragging those two hosses and my hunting gear around, I probably orta upgrade my truck as well, the ol Nissan has done 150k miles, shucks!

Mick.

[Willbird]

I have looked at some of the smaller lathes out there, and even the smallets Jet looks a bit.....err less than nice, they must figuire the smaller ones arent really made to be used, the smaller enco geared head lathes are decent, at least were 20 years ago.

I have been spoiled by a 9" south bend flat belt lathe almost all of my life. Someday if things go right I may buy a bigger jet with a 2" spindle bore

...I have an old hendy flat belt 15x72 that I fit and chamber rifle bbls on.It has no thread dial, one throws a lever to reverse the leadscrew, this is actually much faster...on my south bend for short threading jobs I often hit stop and brake the chuck with my hand, back out cross slide, reverse spindle, stop, move in cross slide (feed in on compound), and run spindle forward.....actually faster than pulling half nuts in and out and hitting lines on the thread dial.

lathes used to command a huge price at auctions, anything that was all there went for 1000-1500 bucks, the flood of asian imports has changed that some tho.

I would think with the numbers of guys here that somebody must have a mini gathering dust after they moved on to a bigger lathe.

Bill

[Four Fingers of Death]

there was a site I used to visit which had a lot of interesting stuff about lathes and machining, it was called 'Varmint Al.'

I suppose I should have looked it up before I posted this, but I have been tryingto remember this for days and jumped on the board as soon as I thought about it.

[Four Fingers of Death]

try this:


http://www.mini-lathe.com/Mini_lathe/Modifications/modifications.htm

Cheers, Mick.

PS, I remember seeing a photo on this site, it was one of his relations, shooting a AR15 in 17Remington. Woodchuck's nightmare!

[454PB]

A very interesting thread. I learned to run a lathe on an old Atlas, driven by a leather belt and a 480 volt 3 phase motor. I bought a Smithy lathe for work shortly before I retired, and I was pleasantly surprised with it's capability for $1700. I have since retired, and have been longing for a lathe for my loading room.

A few weeks ago, I spotted an ad in our local mini shopper for a Grizzly lathe/mill combo for sale for $750. I looked the machine over, and learned that the price included some relatively expensive additional tooling that the owner had never even used. this lathe now lives in my loading room, and it turns out very nice work. The quality is as good as the Smithy, maybe better. I'm old fashioned and prefer HSS tools, but this unit came with a lot of carbide tools that I'm learning to like.

I've also ordered additional accessories from Grizzly, and I'm very pleased with their service and availability.

This lttle machine won't do everything that I learned on the older massive machines, but hey, a small simple lathe/mill is better than none

[Frank46]

Urny, I have an ancient 30+ years atlas 6x19 lathe that I bought from sears many moons ago. Did a lot of "stuff" on the old girl and still use it even though I have the 13x40 jet. Since I was smart enough to get the milling attachment with the lathe that has come in very handy. But the spindle bore is only 5/8" so doing long bbls isn't possible. I got a recent price list from atlas and you should see what they are getting for replacement parts for that lathe now. I think the milling attachment is over $450 now. If you find one in good shape it may be worth it only ifyou get the 3 & 4 jaw chucks, faceplate, and end mill holders. Sometimes the accessories are included and you get a good price. When grumman lost a lost of aero space contracts on long island New York they auctioned off all their machinery. My cousin who has since passed away bought a lathe and milling machine for peanuts. He already had a 12 atlas in the basement. Took him three days to disassemble and relocate the lathe and milling machine in their new home. Also look for surplus houses. They sometimes sell equipment from machine shops. One dealer that I knew made a small fortune parting out some of the lathes amd milling machines he bought from grumman. Used to be called Romax and was in farmingdale long island. This guy had tables in the building with piles of stuff. Carbide inserts, cutters, reamers, just about anything you could think of. Used to go there every month just to see what he had. And it was ok to take a rifle in there so's you could show it to him and he'd help you get the taps and other stuff. He used to supply wolfgang droge who started making the sharps rifles on long island. Wolfgang would give him some sharps rifles when he didn't have the money to pay him. I remember seeing about 6 sharps hanging on the wall in his office. Had a small fortune there. But them days are long gone now. Wish you luck on your quest. Get every catalog you can. Besides great reading you can get an idea of just how big a lathe you want. My advice is that when you see what you want get one size bigger.
The jet has a 1 3/8" spindle bore some are even larger. You'll have to make up a spider if you do through the spindle barrel work, but they are easy to make. I made mine outta bearing bronze thats used to make bearings for tractors. Got it cheap at the local junk yard. Have fun Frank