PDA

View Full Version : Deer Hunting Hollow Point vs solid point



buellmans3
07-20-2016, 06:42 PM
Hello everyone. This is my first post.

I plan to hunt deer for the first time with a Ruger Super Blackhawk 44 Mag revolver. I love them and have two of them.

Revolver 1 is a Super Blackhawk Hunter, scoped
Revolver 2 is a Super Blackhawk, Open Sights

I have the following molds in both hollowpoint and solid point.

429215
429244
429421

I cast them in straight wheel weight lead with a little tin added for flow. All are loaded with H110 powder, magnum primers.

In terms of accuracy, Revolver 1 likes the 429215 Hollow Point the best (by far I might add). Revolver 2 likes the 429421 Hollow Point and the 429244 Hollow Point equally well. Revolver 1 likes the solid point 429421 and revolver 2 likes the solid point 429244. All in all, the accuracy differences are minimal with the above mentioned projectiles, and I am confident I can hit what I aim at within reason. I do not envision taking a shot greater than 50 yards, even though the scoped revolver will reach out farther than that.

I shot the 429215 hollowpoint through a 1 inch thick phonebook with revolver 1 at around 1350 fps, and experienced almost no expansion much to my surprise.

My thought process was that I would use the lighter bullet in hollowpoint for a deer target and capitalize on the higher velocity to get expansion of the hollowpoint. That seems to be out the window for now given no expansion through the phone book.

Based on the this lack of expansion I was wondering if anyone has experience hunting with both solid point and hollowpoint versions of the molds listed, which performs better for deer hunting in their experiences, and if I might need to go with softer lead (range lead for example) to get expansion out of the hollow points. Heck, now I am wondering if the phone book test is even valid.

As I write this I suppose it will be a moot point in the field, as any of the projectiles listed will almost certainly fill the freezer. However, the lack of expansion still nags me.

Thank you in advance for your help.

44man
07-20-2016, 06:50 PM
The .44 needs nothing. A Hp might impede penetration. All my .44 deer were taken with WLN and the Lee 310 RNFP. The 429421 will work and no need for a HP.

white eagle
07-20-2016, 06:52 PM
although not with the exact boolits you mention I have harvested deer
with a non hp boolit and found the boolit worked as good as and in my
opinion better than a jacketed bullet
I have most all the molds you listed and their meplats are more than
adequate for the requirements you want of them
most of all work on alloy and test often for the expansion you want :drinks:

Outpost75
07-20-2016, 07:16 PM
In a .44 with bullet over 200 grains at supersonic velocity, having a flat point at least 0.6 of bullet diameter, you don't need a HP.

DougGuy
07-20-2016, 07:36 PM
HP is actually not preferred as the wide meplat solids penetrate much better, and the wound channel is just as horrific if not worse. The guns you have both have Ruger's 1:20 twist, and an alloy of 50/50+2% (50% coww/50% pure lead/2% tin) and soft lube will take to that barrel like a duck to water.

Although any one of the four boolits you listed will take deer, it will be very very difficult if not impossible to better the performance of the Lee C430-310-RF on game, cast air dropped with the alloy I mentioned, and lubed with Felix lube. This is a load that groups extremely well, leaves a lube star at the muzzle, and a black seasoned bore that never needs cleaning.

In my 7 1/2" SBH, the cylinder throats have all been sized to .4325" the boolit sized to .432" this arrangement is ideal, if your cylinders are stock factory as issued, it is likely the throats are smaller than your boolits and may be unevenly sized. You may want to check them and make sure the boolits you are using will in fact slide into the throats from the front. If not, the throats are sizing your loads down as you fire them and you would see much better performance after cylinder throats have been reamed and honed .0005" to .001" greater than your chosen boolit diameter, and sized evenly with one another.

Btw, welcome to the castboolits family! Feel free to ask any questions or post as you please..

NSB
07-20-2016, 07:46 PM
I don't know where everyone's hunting deer, but the ones I've shot weren't that hard to kill. Either bullet design will work very effectively out of a 44mag. Having shot something over fifty deer with the 357mag and a bunch more with the 44mag and a few other assorted calibers in handguns, I can assure you that they aren't that hard to kill. They aren't bullet proof, don't stop heavy bullets very well, and penetration is adequate (or more than adequate) with any bullet driven to modest velocities using heavier bullets out of a handgun. Use which ever shoots the best. Bullet placement is the name of the game when hunting with a handgun.
IMO, white tail deer should be considered medium sized game, not big game.

runfiverun
07-20-2016, 08:16 PM
soften the alloy.
stay with the flat point.
I would much rather have 2 holes than try to rely on 'energy dump' [snicker]
it's easier to follow blood than it is an energy dumped deer through the trees.

nagantguy
07-20-2016, 08:18 PM
welcome, and my two cents has ready been spoken above by men much smarter than me, any boolit of reasonable weight at modest velocity put into vital blood and oxygen bearing organs at sane distances almost ensures venison for you. things can go wrong a blood trail.go.cold, no blood trail ect. there is no magic boolit cure for this shot placement is always king, next are things like alloy/hardness, boolit design, velocity, angle , distance in what ever order you like but these come after, and far down the list after shot placement, old timers here are sick of hearing this tale but the two largest enraged beasts I've seen taken with one shot each were a 300+ pound boar and a 1200+pound bull with a broken leg, boar 22 mag Bull 5.56 ball round both placed exactly in the brain and lights out right now...point is shot placement, I'd tackle neither of the above with those weapons but they absolutely worked.

MT Gianni
07-20-2016, 08:21 PM
Are you hunting 85 lb whitetail, 300 lb whitetail or 250+ mule deer? Let some cool air in two holes, let some warm blood out and don't worry about 44 cal expansion.

Thumbcocker
07-20-2016, 09:12 PM
What .44 man said.

buellmans3
07-20-2016, 11:26 PM
Thanks for the reassurances that I'm on the right path. Gotta love the 44 mag. I checked my notes. I'm pushing the 215 casting closer to 1500 fps and the Keith at around 1250. Both will do just fine from what is said above. The biggest bodied deer I have harvested was 252 lbs field dressed, considered a monster by my hunting ground production. The vast majority are average sized Midwestern deer. I will stick with the solid points and adjust only if I have to. I appreciate the responses.

Bigslug
07-21-2016, 12:04 AM
The front end of either the Keith or the Thompson is adequately destructive without expansion.

If it still nags at you, the gas check of the Thompson may allow higher speeds with softer lead/tin only alloys, BUT, I would not go there if accuracy suffers. Put it in the right place, and don't worry about the squishy side-effects.

44man
07-21-2016, 08:20 AM
It is often said you need expansion with a .44. I felt that way too when I started hunting with it. I used the 240 XTP and it opened too fast leaving a perfect mushroom against the rib cage, one hole and no blood trails, only my ability to watch the deer in my woods allowed recovery and I have all 3 bullets from the 3 I used it on.
I had no molds at the time so I bought the LBT 320 gr and things turned around fast. I then bought the Lee 310 mold and started making my own molds. My copy of the 320 LBT came out at 330 gr since I cut the ogive close to 11° to match my forcing cone. It proved right as I shot a 1-5/16" group at 200 yards, lots of drop at 35" but I limit shots on deer.
The Lee and my boolit will out shoot the LBT. A few seasons back I thought I had some of mine and did not notice I only had lee 310's loaded, filled the cylinder with 5 and during the week I shot 3 deer and had 2 rounds left. None made over 30 yards with enough blood a blind man could follow.
Now to set things straight I water drop WW boolits to 20-22 BHN, harder then LBT's. It is where I get accuracy with no fliers.
I use 21.5 gr of 296 with the Lee and LBT and 21 with my 330 gr with the Fed 150 primers. They run a shade over 1300 fps.
One season I shot at a running buck at 76 yards, as the hammer fell he went behind what I thought was some weeds in the red dot but it was an osage orange tree with two trunks. The boolit went through one 10" trunk and into the other deep. He stopped, spun to my side and my next shot took him in the neck.
This is the result from a hard boolit.172689 Only 2 revolvers need no expansion at all, the .44 and the .475.
Another deer on the run was leaping over a brush pile when I shot, took out both front legs, went after him and seen his head at 40 yards sticking out of weeds. I shot him in the back of the head. It hurts to see a deer wheelbarrow but I ended him fast enough.
I will never use a HP in the .44. It just plain works.
Boolit weight works and you don't need as fast as the gun will shoot. But I will not kick the 429421 down the road either.
I agree the Lee 310 is as good as it gets with store bought molds.
I don't know if I have more experience with revolvers of all calibers but have well over 180 kills since I could use them and each needs different that we can adjust.
I found the 45-70 BFR and the .500 JRH needs half the nose softer, NO HP! Look out because they can devastate a deer like this entry hole, lost the neck too. 172690

44man
07-21-2016, 08:51 AM
To see what a revolver can do is crazy. I would go for weight in the .44 over a light boolit real fast.
I don't like light boolits. They might stop. The 1 in 20" twist can handle a good amount but I feel 330 is max before stability suffers. Tried some 400 gr and they plain suck, sideways holes at 50 yards.
I read about a guy using even heavier in a short barrel for bear protection. Just give me the Lee boolit. Short barrels can not spin up a boolit. I know, CARRY but a gun like the Alaskan are hard to get accuracy and are 7 yard guns. Flame throwers. Imagine a .500 S&W in a 2" barrel! You need muzzle contact. Mine start at 7-1/2".

Blackwater
07-21-2016, 04:15 PM
Buellman, the reason you didn't get expansion in the phone book is it was dry. When cast (and jacketed) HP's hit dry paper, they tend to smush shut (a technical term) instead of opening up. Wet that paper and really give it time to soak up the water, and you'll have very different results, I think. The wetness changes everything.

And the guys above are right. HP's expand, but CAN limit penetration, so it's a trade-off. You can get either expansion OR penetration, but not both at once, at least relatively. In my neck of the woods, it'd be very rare to find any .44 bullet, HP or solid, jacketed or cast, left inside a deer, but our deer just aren't that big. Out west or north where mulies can exceed 300 lbs. pretty regularly, live wt., I'd definitely go with the solid points. For whitetails, it'd be hard to not get a deer IF you can put it in the right place, which is usually considered to be up close behind the shoulder on a broadside shot, about 1/3 of the way up from the chest. This will usually get the top of the heart and the aorta, and a deer without those just ain't goin' very far, period, no matter what you hit it with, provided it just penetrates to the vitals, which any .44 bullet should do well. It's been a long time ago now, so this may have changed, but I found Sierra JHC's to be the most vioilently expanding bullets I've ever tried, personally. Their penetration was significantly less than most others. But like I said, that was a long time ago now. Now, I'd just shoot cast, and a buddy who's shot as many deer, hogs and whatever surfaced with a handgun as anyone I know or have heard of, has come full circle to RNFP's for his own use. He (like me) loves the single actions, and uses a .45 LC or .44 mag. or Spl., and just puts the bullet where it needs to be. He's bad to shoot them in the head, if they're under 50 yds. As NSB said above, it's WAY more about WHERE you hit 'em than anything else - caliber, bullet wt., bullet type (so long as it gets to the vitals), velocity, etc., etc. Put a decent bullet that'll penetrate into the vitals in the right place, and you'll eat venison. A flat point really seems to enhance the bullet's effect, no matter what size game you're shooting. I've shot a lot more small game with pistols than I have deer, but have field dressed and autopsied well over 300 that I and others have shot. That's the best of all possible ways to discover what bullets really do when they hit. Get your hands dirty and volunteer at deer camp to do the field dressing, and you'll really get a MA or PhD in bullet performance, and it'll become evident why they work as they do, and what makes them "good" or "bad" for specific purposes.

With cast, the hardness and malleability of your alloy can make a very significant difference, so you have to specify bullet, alloy and velocity plus (to some extent) point shape in logging what you find inside dead deer. Jacketed you never know what alloy is in the core or how thick the jacket is, but you can at least observe what they do and make reasonable interpretations of what they must be. As with everything, experience is the best teacher, but they guys here HAVE that experience, and it's good to see someone asking good, sensible questions BEFORE going afield and possibly wasting/wounding one and having it get away to die horribly. You'll find the guys here can answer just about anything you can come up with. I'd cast for decades before coming to this site, and I've learned a lot from them. Newer guys couldn't find a more experienced and knowledgeable group to get advice from.

Shiloh
07-21-2016, 04:38 PM
The cast shower/hunters I know of deer and elk, used plain old non hollow point cast boolits. .30 and .35 caliber.

Shiloh

NSB
07-21-2016, 06:29 PM
Blackwater.....your comments are worthy of being published in a magazine. Well written and accurate. It covers the advantages/disadvantages and trade offs of solid vs HP and penetration vs hitting the vitals from a better angle. Nice job.

fredj338
07-21-2016, 06:31 PM
HP expansion is always about the HP design & alloy. Clip WW alloy with tin isn't offering a lot of expansion. I use pure lead & tin, 20-1 or 25-1. I prefer 20-1 for vel higher than 1100fps. I also prefer a cup point, less fragmentation & better penetration. This is my hunting bullet but I have since removed the gc. I rarely push over 1300fps, just not needed. The bullet won't stay inside any deer shot broadside.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v703/fredj338/44-272.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/fredj338/media/44-272.jpg.html) http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v703/fredj338/44-272-1K.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/fredj338/media/44-272-1K.jpg.html)

needausername
07-21-2016, 07:29 PM
Save the HP's for the night stand and hunt with solids.

Shiloh
07-21-2016, 08:22 PM
+1^^^

I've seen solids made from 50/50 WW/Range scrap. Recovered from deer, 311041 mushroomed nicely from a Marlin 30-30. Two were sort of mushroomed and bent. This in Southern Colorado hunts.

Shiloh

smoked turkey
07-22-2016, 12:28 AM
I will pile on here too and give another vote for the non HP, softer alloy for what you want to do. 50/50 (ww/pure lead) has been mentioned and I am in that camp. I do add a little tin to the mix (1%-2%). I would recommend your "wet pack" be something like 18" long so you will be able to recover your boolits and access your weight retention and expansion from your alloy. All the advice you were given is excellent. My more recent experience in doing what you are doing involved my 35 Whelen which I took for black bear in New Brunswick Canada. It was a real eye opener to see how the various alloys performed in the wet pack. I settled on the 50/50 mix and the Lyman 3589 boolit. The combination performed perfectly when I got my chance at a nice older bore.

44man
07-22-2016, 08:11 AM
I lost two deer with the 45-70 BFR by using too hard a boolit. Those I recovered went over 200 yards, one close to 300. I found them because I knew where they were headed, went way ahead to finally find blood at the 100 yard mark.
Babore had sent me some 420 gr 50-50 HP's. I loaded some and sighted the gun. I shot a large doe but with the angle, I got behind the shoulder but the boolit exited the off shoulder.
That ended that boolit right fast, I lost the whole shoulder and the deer was blood shot head to tail. I was only running the boolit in the 1600 fps range. That monster revolver is fast but is where it shoots best. With a 1 in 14" twist it is deadly accurate. I don't know why they put a slower twist on the BPCR or 45-70 hunting rifles. Many are 1 in 20". 1 in 18" the fastest. With BP it is hard to spin them.172728
To find a happy ground without mush is very hard to do so to call for a 50-50 boolit might give you a bomb depending on your caliber.
Now for BP, 20 to 1 lead, tin might be the way to go. I won't shoot it as fast as my revolvers are.
Now my Old Army cap and ball has taken 3 deer with RB's of pure and bones, shoulders do not stop the ball. It has proven to work as good as the .44 mag. Distance needs closer because if the ball is shot fast, the twist is wrong. I pull that gun in to about 20 yards. A case of too fast a twist for a ball. Boolits limit powder capacity a lot.
I use 41 gr of Swiss FFFG for around 1100 fps but a boolit will max out at about 32 gr. I have to chronograph the boolits yet.
I shy away from soft for smokeless seeing what happens. Hard to wrap my head around how destructive a revolver can be. Some will slow a heavy boolit in the .44 but unless you are happy with 2' or better groups, not good. Slow and soft is OK but don't try it with boolits too heavy to reach spin. The biggest sin is to ignore twist rates.

44man
07-22-2016, 08:29 AM
I do a necropsy on every deer to evaluate the boolit/bullet. It is a learning experience that no media can duplicate. Jello, wet paper, jugs of water, cloth, bones, sticks, NOTHING will show you.
Testing all with soaked phone books shows a Rem factory .44 will make 11", The RD 265 will get 33" and my 330 gr will go 34". My .475 will reach 37". All meaningless unless the boolit works where needed. All the over penetration is no loss.
Lungs are filled with air mostly, not a tank of blood. Sure not a row of soaked paper.

superc
07-22-2016, 10:00 AM
It is what Blackwater said. Dry medium. I have (well a few seconds ago anyway) a .45 acp JHP that is the cat's meow according to some gun writers. Fired into a log with a bunch of it's brothers this one emerged out the other side then dropped to the ground where I found it. Totally un-expanded with the hollow point clogged with dry wood.

Soak the phone books overnight in water then try your experiment again. The results should be different.

That being said, I am amazed at the poor results cited for the 240 gr. XTP. In .45 Colt with dozens placed in deer, although I haven't found any exit wounds in the deer, I also have yet to find anything more thanabout 4 or 5 grains of bullet with Hornady's 250 gr. XTP at velocities similar, i.e., 1600+ fps. I find a 5 to 8 inch permanent wound cavity and on one shot where I hit him frontwise just as he jumped that bullet blew through every single rib on the right side before vanishing (instantly lethal as the bone splinters went in all directions (with some lodged in the chest wall on the other side, even outwards through the hide too so everything in the chest was well perforated).

44man
07-22-2016, 10:55 AM
XTP's are different and the .45 might be tougher. Now the 300 gr XTP in the .44 is a different animal. I would use it if I didn't cast. I still feel an exit hole is better then stopping a bullet

Blackwater
07-22-2016, 02:08 PM
Blackwater.....your comments are worthy of being published in a magazine. Well written and accurate. It covers the advantages/disadvantages and trade offs of solid vs HP and penetration vs hitting the vitals from a better angle. Nice job.

Gee whiz, NSB, don't put something on me I might not br able to carry! I might not be the sharpest knife in the drawer, but I can at least read and learn and do my own experiments to prove things out. And it's fun, and just makes sense to do such things to prove out what we read about,

In my own earliest experiments, I tried the dry stuff, too, just as described in the OP. ?Got the same results, too, but had enough experience with game to know something was wrong with my methods, so I just kept searching for understanding, and somewhere was told to wet the stuff, and what a difference that made! It was much more in line with what I was finding in the field. Asin the old adage, even a blind hog will find an acorn now and then if he just keeps rooting. And really, we're all like that. Just in different ways at different times, and sometimes for different reasons or causes. That's why it pays to associate with folks who've got more experience. I learned everything I know from others, or from wondering about things and simply experimenting some to find the real answers. None of us is born knowing more than others. It's all about learning from others and doing a little due diligence on our own. The best part is, with all things shooting related, it's all FUN, as well as being instructive and edifying. Others here have done far more than I have, and even us "ol' pros" (pharts???) have learned an awful lot here that we'd never have learned, probably, without this site.

We're really all in this thing, our pursuit of good shooting and casting and loading, together, and if we ever stop learning, we start deteriorating. I hope I never stop learning, ever! Keeps us "old pros" (to be generous?) pretty humble.

44man
07-22-2016, 05:19 PM
When all is said and done, the animal must not suffer and we need to recover it and get as much meat as we can. I have no joy in killing, it is hard. I can not kill a tame rabbit or a chicken or a sick dog either. I could never slice a lambs throat. Not going to happen. Yes I hunted all my life but now a rabbit in my yard is a joy and squirrels at the feeder will not be shot.
You will change as you get older.
I have gotten soft I guess. But when I kill, I do the best I can. When I get meat I thank the Lord. I will never stop hunting but it is my job to do it right. I can't kill in my hands anymore but fair chase will be done.
Blackwater says it good. Many of us can write but I for one am not tolerated. Some of us know too much. I tried and figured out how to tune a bow for broad heads in 5 minutes. Submitted it and was rejected to find it was stolen. I made the first lighted bow sights. Again stolen. My copy rights have been taken but without millions to protect what do you do? I can tell you how to fool deer and make them come to you. Rejected again because you don't fool with gun writers.
Had it out with one here that has more guns and die sets then anyone can ever get. Not on a writers pay for sure. Knew another gun writer that got tons of stuff to test but if a gun was wrong, he was honest and returned it. Some would keep the gun and not pay. They are given at cost.
Most here are honest and work hard. The unknown one I mentioned left fast. I will not say his name. I still can't read his articles in a gun rag but there is another too, even worse.
How about a cast boolit magazine? It would fly.

buellmans3
07-25-2016, 05:37 PM
I did not get a chance to try any of the advice above this weekend. However, I sprang for the lee mold and should get it this week. I have some pure lead, range lead, and wheel weight lead. I think I will try the 429244 mold and the new lee mold with a 50/50 mix of wheel weight and range lead, both solid point, with H110 powder, magnum primers. I have a starting point for the 429244 that gets me to around 1100 fps. I will work up to 1200 and call that one good of accuracy is good. From above discussions I will start with around 20 gr of H110 for the Lee mold projectiles and again work up to 1150-1200 fps. Either should be just fine for my needs. Thank you everyone, again, for your comments.

buellmans3
07-25-2016, 05:41 PM
AND, if I am going astray please chime in. I am all about trying different things and making excuses to go to the range.

buellmans3
07-25-2016, 05:59 PM
On a side note, I used to use the 240 grain xtps exclusively out of my muzzleloader running about 1500 fps with 100 grain charge. I killed several smaller deer no problem. I then encountered a larger buck with same charge. The deer was harvested with a perfect broadside shot at about 60 yards. I was not overly impressed with the overall performance. It did not go through the deer, and the animal traveled about 100 yards before expiring. If snow was not on the ground, finding the deer would have been really difficult. That experience lends some validity to a non-expanding bullet with a good sized exit hole. I use the Keith bullet in hollow point now and run it at about 1750 with a 150 grain charge, and it has been very effective with large exit hole and good tissue damage. I have never recovered a bullet, or fragments inside the deer, so I cannot comment about actual terminal performance, only that it harvests cleanly and quickly. I can only imagine what a soft 300 grain flat nose bullet would do.