50 caliber bullet molds, which has proven accuracy?

[Tnfalconer]

I am new here but not new to the sport or methods, I am also a gunsmith. I have some unanswered questions in the quest to build a new rifle. I have some questions and I figured you fine folks would have some answers or at least a good starting point on knowledge concerning cast 50 caliber bullets. My intention is to built a 1,000 yard rifle for competition in 50 caliber. While I am thoroughly versed in the caliber choices (I will most likely use 50 peacekeeper or 50 Alaskan) I'm not up to date on cast lead 50 caliber bullets. What I am looking for is the slipperiest cast projectile. I will be pushing it around 15-1800 fps. Something in the 700g plus size. Is anyone making a lead casting mold of the 50 BMG projectile? I need some solid info here guys. This rifle will be purpose built, custom twist barrel on a Ruger No.1 action. Help me get down the path in the right direction here. I am looking for a design that has proven accuracy at distance. Thanks in advance!

[Moonie]

There are some casting and shooting for the 50BMG, they should be along to help.

[Tnfalconer]

I sent PM's to a couple of folks. I am hoping to get some details. I am building this rifle purposely to shoot 1,000 yard buffalo matches and the Quigley match. Bullet weight is to the tune of "the heavier the better" recoil be damned....LOL

[Tnfalconer]

emails sent to NOE and others to see what is available out there. I am really liking the .510 NOE 850g mould but I wish it had more point to the nose, possibly in a base pour model. We'll see what happens with it.

[44MAG#1]

What loads are you planing to use in that 50 Alaskan with 700 grainers at 1800 fps?

[Tnfalconer]

I don't have a load developed. It's just speculation at this point. Looking more like the only high BC cast bullets are going to be in the 825-900 grain range. That is going to make the cartridge capacity more than the Alaskan will provide to get it up to a reasonable speed. I will be considering lots of options for case, those were just the two that I was familiar with having built one .50 already.

[45-70 Chevroner]

Are you planning on shooting this rifle with black powder?, the Quigley shoot is a black powder cartridge shoot only.

[Tnfalconer]

Actually it isn't black powder only. They allow duplex and modern powders as well. Most who attend try to keep it as traditional as possible and use black powder cartridges but it isn't required.

I am planning to shoot the Quigley matches. I spoke with the judges of the match last night and everything I have in mind is approved for the local buffalo matches as well as Quigley.

[Walter Laich]

those bullets eat up a pot of lead quickly--good luck

[Tnfalconer]

Yeah they will! Good thing I have a large pot and lead to burn. I think I stopped counting one time at about 300 pounds. Mostly wheel weight melted into ingots. About six five gallon buckets in addition to that. No idea how much is there really. I have been doing this a good while.

[JFE]

CBE in Oz make one that might be of interest - it's designated 512-975GC :

http://www.castbulletengineering.com.au/bullet-moulds/rifle/50-calibre/512-975gc-single-cavity

They make a number of other 50 cal moulds too.

[Tnfalconer]

CBE in Oz make one that might be of interest - it's designated 512-975GC :

http://www.castbulletengineering.com.au/bullet-moulds/rifle/50-calibre/512-975gc-single-cavity

They make a number of other 50 cal moulds too.

I sent an email to them to evaluate the BC of that bullet. I am looking for the highest B/C that I can get for the 50 cal mold. The one that NOE sells has a BC of about .47 I am looking for something better than that.

[Whiterabbit]

I use the 850 grain NOE in a "50 peacekeeper" (actually a 510 wells express which, let's be honest, is the same thing) and it's a wonderfully accurate bullet. Actually, it's kind of hard to miss. However, my gun was designed to be a 50 yard shooter, and when I say hard to miss, I mean 100 yards standing off hand on steel plates, which is my only standard of accuracy for this rifle.

In short, a very different game than 1000 yards.

One thing to keep in mind as you seek BC, is that BC will be dominated by bullet length, and you can't thin out lead like copper due to nose slump which will hurt accuracy. So by the time you get your BC up you have the weight way too high to take meaningful advantage of the high BC. Furthermore, in my experience, my most accurate cast rounds all can be characterized by having an absurd amount of driving band (goes back to BPCR), which will seriously balloon bullet weight if you want high BC via long length but also lots of (full diameter) driving band. Did I mention BPCR guys don't see to have issues (complain about) working with low BC bullets?

Here's my uninformed opinion:

Give the 850 NOE a shot in the peacekeeper, or go for a more traditional (lighter, even worse BC) bullet in the 50 AK taking advantage of known BPCR type performance. If it works for them, you can make it work for you with smokeless. There is such a thing as chasing a category (BC) to a fault.

None of what I say is information or data, just an opinion from a guy who shoots the 50 cal NOE in a 378 weatherby case blown wide open. You can easily achieve speeds WELL in advance of what you are looking at producing. You'll have a great many powder choices.

[Tnfalconer]

We have built several of the 50 peacekeepers but all to fire the pulled military 50 bmg bullets. Wonderfully accurate is how I would describe them. In working backwards with this particular rifle the plan is to start with the bullet and work backwards. Starting with the best bullet for the job will give me leverage in all aspects of the rifle build. So far I have three choices that are appealing, none that really stand out. I have time on this build and I intend to take it to get what I want. Even if that means having my own mould made. This rifle will also shoot the pulled BMG projectiles when I'm not shooting lead cast. It is looking more and more like the case I will be using will be the 50-90 sharps or the 50-110. For no other reason than powder capacity. The peacekeepers that we built earlier were painful to shoot without a muzzle brake. I won't be able to use one on this build so that is also one of the things keeping me from going that route although I have everything to build it. We based ours on the 460 weatherby case necked up to .50 caliber. The other side of he coin is that the 460 case will hold ridiculous pressures and push the cast lead well past the point of stabilizing. I have a good amount of 460 brass which if you didn't know is extremely hard to find and expensive when you find it. The 50-90 and 50-110 are readily available and inexpensive.

[Whiterabbit]

If you can't use a brake, I wouldn't even consider 50 peacekeeper. My wells is brutal with no brake, 12lb gun, and I don't shoot for 1000 yards.

I think you already came to that conclusion though.

[Tnfalconer]

Yup, It would need to be reduced a good bit to make it tolerable I think. I think I'll stick with the 50-90 or 50-110.

[Whiterabbit]

mine is very tolerable at 1500 fps, which I achieve with about 75 grains H4350. at 92 grains, I get 1900ish, and it is brutal. Brutal. I assume I can get to well over 2000 fps, what are your max load velocities with m33 ball on 50 peacekeeper? But I've never seen the need to go that hard.

Anyways, at 1500, it's kind of a waste, as you've said.

[Tnfalconer]

with a Barret sharkmouth break we could push well over 2300 fps but let me tell you. It isn't nice to shoot. The last one we built was the heaviest that we have made at 18 pounds. (Winchester LA magnum receiver, 26" full straight taper 1.5" barrel, AICS style aluminum chassis system and muzzle brake) I feel like this is about the max for this cartridge. Although we did not see pressure signs or anything, it's about as much as anyone can stand. I'll have to dig loading specs out of the file cabinet but I want to say we were using IMR 4064? Anyway, that same rifle was also used as a suppressed rifle. The customer had a 50 bmg suppressor for it and I will tell you something, even with full charge loads it really calmed it down. For subsonic work the case capacity was filled with rice crispies...(LOL) worked like a charm. Plus the added benefit of the muzzle blast smelling like rice crispie treats.

[Tnfalconer]

If you can stand the output of funds,:bigsmyl2: suppressors are absolutely the best muzzle brakes money will buy.

[scottfire1957]

Well, "slippierest" depends, yes? Pb is slippier than copper or gilded coated or clad. Are you looking for a specific Pb alloy that is slippier than any others? Or a mould that is pointier than others?

Edit: as a gunsmith, you would know that 100 rifles might shoot one load accurately, but not yours. It happens. Sounds like you'll have to do some experimenting. Good luck!

[Whiterabbit]

rice crispies is hilarious, I bet it did work a treat (no pun intended. No really, no pun intended). fill to top of neck, seat bullet and crush in place. Perfect.

I hear you on being intolerable. 1900 is intolerable for me, truth be told. I get a weird sinus effect after about 8 rounds and have to stop. 1500, I can shoot all day. But that's basically a 28 gauge slug gun at that point, shooting 2 oz slugs.

But I refuse to use a brake on it, so that kinda limits me. I figure if I need 2400 fps I go to 535 grain solids. But who wants to pay $3 per projectile when I can use 850 grains of hardcast lead.

[Whiterabbit]

have you looked into what the BPCR folks are doing? Are any shooting 1000 yards? what case are they using? 50AK? 50-110? 50-140? 50-70 even? What bullet are they using to reach out far?

[EDK]

Have you discussed moulds with Steve Brooks? What about paper patch boolits ? Kenny Wasserberger might be someone to talk to...he does a lot of research and shares his results generously. Rim diameter of 50/90 versus 50/110? (I shoot a 50/90 SHILOH SHARPS at 14 pounds WITH a recoil reducer in the butt stock.)
BOB W didn't win any popularity contests at the Q shooting his 50/140...he blew away the dust and rattlesnakes on the firing line AND was accused of causing migraine headaches to innocent bystanders.

[Tnfalconer]

I have shot 1000 yrd black powder matches in he past with a 45-110, and won a few. Now that being said I was never able to get great accuracy. Hitting an 8ft wide target isn't that hard to do if you can call the wind. That was in a sharps platform. Now most shooting BPCR silhouette are using sharps rifles in 45 caliber. Mostly because that is what they have. I don't know anyone that has built a rifle from scratch for shooting the competition.

In my case, I don't have a rifle to shoot these matches anymore. I sold mine before moving out west. So I am forced to build one. Which to me is a plus as I get the chance to build it the way that I want. Basing it off of a ruger number one is an easy decision, using a 50 caliber was also easy, as I have several 1-15 twist BMG barrels. The big 50 black powder folks are still in the same rut as the 45 caliber BP folks, they didn't build the rifle so they have to bend to what is applicable with twist and velocity in their rifles. I don't have to do that. I am building the rifle in reverse, basically. Looking for the best 50 caliber bullet to shoot that will carry the wind most effectively and stabilize at higher velocity with a higher ballistic coefficient, basically because I can. Then find a cartridge to stick it in that will propel it at a sufficient velocity. This is the first time I have built anything like this with the restriction of cast lead bullets. If it were up to me I would be shooting pulled 50bmg bullets and let that be the end of it. Rules are rules and I am conforming to them. So, in that space, I want to find the best "Slipperiest", highest BC, most accurate bullet to shoot. It is a competition after all and I intend to win, at least some of the time. Now I know that a 950 spitzer bullet is not really considered "traditional" but there are no provisions for the size or style of bullet fired, only the rifle used. My intention is to build the most accurate gun for the competition that I can, based on the newest (oldest) technology that works. So that is my thought process for this build, one step at a time. One piece of the puzzle first. I have to decide on at least one or two bullet designs to start from, then choose the case that will provide enough powder to propel the bullet to my desired velocity, without too much leftover space for inconsistency and then build the rifle and find out if I was right. I know full well that I can do all of this work, run all the programs and use every possible advantage and still have days or weeks of testing and tuning to get it shooting well. That's what I do, I love this stuff. The goal is to build a competitive with a slight edge in the accuracy department. I have no doubt this is what I will have in the end, this is all just part of getting there.

[Tnfalconer]

we bought about five 50 gallon drums of pulled BMG bullets a while back at government auction. To say we had them to burn was an understatement. We developed the rifles to shoot those rounds. Ball, AP,APIT and tracers....all shoot well. If you really want to see something cool, flip the ball rounds over and load them backwards in a short charged 50 peacekeeper. We did this subsonic and it made a HAMMER! It stabilized well out to 200 yards, not so much after that but has more retained energy than anything I have ever seen. We were shooting armor plate (1/2) at that distance and taking it off the chains that hung it up. Incredible energy.

[Tnfalconer]

Have you discussed moulds with Steve Brooks? What about paper patch boolits ? Kenny Wasserberger might be someone to talk to...he does a lot of research and shares his results generously. Rim diameter of 50/90 versus 50/110? (I shoot a 50/90 SHILOH SHARPS at 14 pounds WITH a recoil reducer in the butt stock.)
BOB W didn't win any popularity contests at the Q shooting his 50/140...he blew away the dust and rattlesnakes on the firing line AND was accused of causing migraine headaches to innocent bystanders.

I wish I knew how to get in touch with some of these folks, they sound like my kind of people. I have a couple here on the site helping me out in my search for bigger, faster and more accurate. It's a little presumptuous to say but I might be in an area where there is a lot of room to run. Not much development of bullets in this area I am seeing, which leads me to believe that I need to test and report. I will offer an opinion here though, if this all works out and the rifle shoots like I expect it to, I foresee a few more showing up at these matches based on what we are doing. I never cared for innocent bystanders anyway.....

[Tnfalconer]

Well, "slippierest" depends, yes? Pb is slippier than copper or gilded coated or clad. Are you looking for a specific Pb alloy that is slippier than any others? Or a mould that is pointier than others?

Edit: as a gunsmith, you would know that 100 rifles might shoot one load accurately, but not yours. It happens. Sounds like you'll have to do some experimenting. Good luck!

In building this rifle for a specific class of shooting, I am restricted to cast bullets. No coatings, which is something new for me. Pointier doesn't mean that it has a higher BC, which is what I am after. Defeating the wind in the most elegant way possible is the goal. The higher the BC, the slipperier it is, the better it flies in the wind at a given velocity. I am specifically after a mold for cast lead bullets that will provide that.

I have shot 50's for 20 years or more and never really cared about shooting cast lead. I probably should have but I was spending someone elses money, so it didn't matter to me. I know all about the other bullets available, cast lead is where I am deficient in knowledge. That's why I am here, trying to get some.

[45-70 Chevroner]

Actually it isn't black powder only. They allow duplex and modern powders as well. Most who attend try to keep it as traditional as possible and use black powder cartridges but it isn't required.

I am planning to shoot the Quigley matches. I spoke with the judges of the match last night and everything I have in mind is approved for the local buffalo matches as well as Quigley.

I stand corrected. Good luck.