Question

[Calamity Jake]

For you semiauto rifle shooters, with cast or otherwise, are small base sizer dies really needed or just good to have around? I talking M1 Grand and M14 Rock River Varmit.

I have the M1 and the RR is ordered. I am going to get 5.56 pulldown brass from gibrass.

Yes I am going to shoot cast in both.

Thanks

[HeavyMetal]

Small base sizer dies aren't needed unless you have a very sloppy chamber in one or more of your rifles.

The small base sizer die was developed in answer to what I consider poor die design ( of the time) and some sloppy G.I. rifle chambers ( 30-06)

If your going to reload for a semi I will suggest you try to kep your brass seperate ( let me know how you do that eh!) failing that full length sizing is what you going to need to insure relaible feeding all the time.

Something I've played with on a very limited basis is a die that only sizes the base of a rifle round, from about 3/4 of the way up a case, to the base it self.

I then run the case into a Lee collet die for the caliber and continue loading as needed for cast boolits.

I then have neck sized cases that are full length sized with out the risk of moving the shoulder back.

So far I've only done this with 30-30 rounds as I have 3 rifles and a contender in this caliber.

So far no failures to feed, no hung up rounds that won't feed that last 1/16 of an inch, and about average accuracy in the lever guns. I still need to do some more testing in the contender and will later this summer.

[AZ-Stew]

I was told a different story.

The first firearm I reloaded for was a Remington M-760 pump in 30-06. The guy at the gun shop told me to buy the small base dies to ensure that the case would be sized enough to fit in a min spec chamber (just in case my rifle had one) because the pump and semi-auto rifles don't have the camming power (compared to a bolt action) to ensure that the action will fully close if the cartridge is a slightly tight fit in the chamber.

That said, I'veloaded for a Garand using standard dies and have had no problems. My Garand probably hasn't had 600 rounds through it to date. When I got it from the DCM in the early 80s it was like brand new, so I know its chamber is in spec. I also have a Mini-14 I've loaded for using standard dies. No problems.

Regards,

Stew

[garandsrus]

Calamity Jake,

Regular dies are all I use for the Garand, 03-A3 and AR-15 and I haven't had any problems at all. I don't know of anyone that uses the small base dies.

I think that most folks would not recommend using the small base dies as they work the brass more than necessary.

John

[porkchop bob]

If you are loading cases of ammo for some future event and have no idea what rifle will be shooting it, the small base sizing die is the way to go. A jam can get you killed. In this situation you are not worried about over-working the brass.
Bob

[billyb]

I reload for my garand, use a second hand set of rcbs standard dies with no problems. Bill

[Wayne Smith]

Neither does the lever have much camming action. Yet standard dies have been used for decades. I'll accept HeavyMetal's definition as most logical - Occam's razor qualification.

[NoDakJak]

It all comes down to tolerances gentlemen. If the cases were fired in a military firearm they might not fit into a civilian specced chamber. If they have been fired in a machine gun with their larger tolerances they might not even fit into a military rifle unless small base reamers are used for the initial sizing. I ran into this problem in the mid sixties when I tried loading commercially for a very short time. About fifteen percent of my loads came back before I wised up and started using the small base dies. Remington must have been turning out some mighty tight chambers in the fifties and sixties as they gave by far the largest problem. I even ran into a 721 that required the use of small base dies.
Another problem is that reamers for both dies and chambers have minimum and maximun tolerances. Therotically a case sized in your maximum tolerance sizer die should still work in your minimum size chamber but it just isn't always true. As a reamer wears it gets smaller and the chamber gets smaller accordingly.
The use of recycled 3006 and 308 brass seems to be dwindling and now that we have ample supplies of new commercial brass these problems seem to be alleviated. It is still a very good idea to keep your brass sorted for the rifle that it was fired in to prevent this problem and to also aid in achieving greater accuracy. Neil

[felix]

If you have a quality gun, and all quality guns have small chambers on purpose, then you should spring for custom dies for the utmost continual satisfaction. However, most guns do not deserve this kind of pampering. Must insure that the cases are small enough to enter fully into the existing chamber. Be suspicious of all military cases to be used in your tightly chambered gun. NDJ in the previous paragraph is right on!!! However, headspace seems to be my major concern, and not the diameter of a case when using pick-up cases. ... felix

[Ed Barrett]

Many years ago I recieved three bushel baskets of 308 military cases from the Fort Wood range, They were from full auto Machine guns. To say the base was a little large would be a gross understatement. A friend of mine suggested I buy a set of small base dies. I started looking around at the local stores and all anyone had was 30-06 SB dies. One of the old hands at the store said they would work for 308 as far as making the base smaller and then using a regular die to finish. I still have that set of RCBS dies. I got several more gifts of machinegun brass and it served me well. I wish I had them today with the cost of scrap brass.

[Calamity Jake]

Thanks guys, I think I will just use standard dies for now cause I know that the M1 has a new barrel in it and less than 200 rounds thru it. The RR is new with that Wylde chamber which I read it is very good.

[mike in co]

me thinks most has been covered.
but,

most dies will properly size brass THAT WAS FIRED in your rifle, most dies will size brass that was fired in someone else's rifle, the big exception being milsurplus and machine guns.

so the issue becomes how much brass did you end up with that will not chamber once resized in std dies ? is the cost of a sb die worth the brass ?

with unfired pull down brass you will probably be fine, but remember that 223 chambers and 5.56mm are not the same...minor diff.

mike in co

[garandsrus]

Calamity Jake,

The Wylde chamber does work well. As Mike points out, .223 and 5.56 are not the same. The Wilde chamber doesn't match either one. It is between .223 and 5.56. You can shoot either ammo in the Wylde chamber though.

I reload for my AR's with standard dies and have never had a problem.

John

[Lloyd Smale]

Ive had 3 mini 14s through the years and the only stainless one i had would not function reliably unless I used a small base die. I think there also a good idea if a guy picks up range brass that was fired through a semi auto at least for the first sizing. Bottom line is they sure dont hurt and do help to insure reliable function of a combat gun and accuracy is a secondary consern to reliablility in a gun you trust your life to.

[bullshot]

Had a match grade barrel installed on my Garand, shot military march ammo no problem. I reloaded the match cases with standard dies. The ammo chambered fine but when shot ripped the rim off the case leaving it in the chamber. Used small base dies corrected the problem

[NoDakJak]

A couple years ago I purchased a 25 gallon keg of 1950s 3006 military ammo that had been fired in a 1919 Browning that some Guard outfit still owned. I made hundreds of them into 8x57 brass. Worked well in all Mausers that we tried them in. Not one would fit in any of the several 700 Remingtons that were chambered for the same round. Commercial brass is available so messing around isn't worth the time but I think that small base dies and neck reaming both would be required for these rifles. Sure glad that I had the old RCBS A2 when I sized these huge misshapen brass jugs. Neil

[garandsrus]

I reloaded the match cases with standard dies. The ammo chambered fine but when shot ripped the rim off the case leaving it in the chamber. Used small base dies corrected the problem

This sounds more like a case of using a powder too slow for the Garand that had too high a pressure at the gas port. This would cause the op-rod to operate too quickly.

If the cases chambered fine without the small base dies, the brass was sized correctly and the small base dies should not have been needed.

I can't see how the case extraction would change with regular vs. small base dies. The brass was subjected to a bunch of pressure and fire formed to the chamber before being extracted.

John

[bullshot]

Garandsrus
The ammo was govt match ammo 173 gr bullet. Shot fine. When I reloaded the fired cases with std RCBS 30-06 dies using imr 4895( don't remember the charge but I'm aware of the burn rates and problems bending the op rod) is when the rounds ripped off the rim. I thought that the chamber being match grade was prolly tight. Small base dies only size down to leave the case about .001 smaller than stdsizing dies. When the round is shot and expansion takes place the gas system is trying to extract the case and that extra .001 or so lets it happen.
These loads work fine in rack grade rifles sized with std dies My experience with that particular rifle. I have never used small base dies in anthing else. I also shoot a Rock River Natl Match AR-15 and a Springfield M1A Super Match both loaded with std dies.

[OBXPilgrim]

At one time (about ten years ago) I had access to 8 M1 Garands. Everyone of them would chamber & fire the ammo I loaded that was partially resized - I didn't even full length size them - the die was never adjusted to touch the shell holder. My MK X Mauser 30-06 liked the same die setting just fine.

For each one, the first times I fired them, I had lower power loads that worked up to the final 'match' load. If you like replacing brass a bunch, resize them with a small base die. The M1 don't need it.

[NoDakJak]

I have owned a couple Garands and wish that I had them both back. One had a standard chamber and shot reloads that were assembled in standard full length dies. The other was a Match Grade that had been assembled by Navy armorers and it demanded the use of small base dies. That is the only tie that I have ever encountered a chamber that tight in a military rifle. Neil