Finally Gonna Try .22's

[ticket machine]

Picked up a new 225415 GC Lyman mold, new, with Hornady gas checks that are old. They are in a can similar to a smokeless tobacco can only thicker. Anyway, got the .224 sizing die also. Never cast for anything this small before so if anyone can throw me a hint about alloys casting temps, powder choices for .223, etc. I would appreciate it. I have Linotype, 1-20 tin/lead, and an alloy a little softer than #2. Gonna try to shoot them in an AR but not looking for fast loads, just 1500fps or so to shoot varmints.

[leadman]

I have been casting 22 caliber boolits for about 20 years. I have found that linotype is the easiest alloy to use. It fills out well and minimizes culls and will stand enough pressure to allow higher velocities than other alloys. I have used heat treated linotype with Hi-Tek coating to get over 3,600 fps with the Lee bator boolit.
If you have a way to preheat the mold this will help a bunch. Casting cadence will have to be fairly fast to maintain heat in the mold.
Make sure the edge of the sprue plate hole is sharp so it cuts the linotype without leaving a raised sprue nib. The little 22 boolits are sensitive to any flaws so a good visual inspection is mandatory and weighing then to about a half grain spread also helps.
I have tried aluminum gas checks but have had them extrude up the side of the hard boolits when sizing. I have gone back to the Hornady copper as they fit the best and crimp on the boolit well.
Good luck.

[Mk42gunner]

I cast somewhere around a pint of 225438's a few years ago using ACWW. I didn't have very many problems once I figured out how to get full base bands (hold the dipper to the sprue).

I cast at my normal casting temp for that lot of alloy, memory says somewhere around 650F. Anneal your gas checks, it will help a bunch when trying to seat them on those itty bitty boolits.

In fact, my biggest problem was seating gas checks square with the base and then getting the boolit into and out of the LAM sizing die.

I need to get back to that project now that my back is feeling better...

Robert

[osteodoc08]

What a timely thread. I've been wanting to shoot some low velocity loads out of my Remmy 700 Varmint in 223 with 1:12 twist.

[runfiverun]

I got nuthin on low velocity loads in the 223's.
cut your lino-type in half with soft lead or use your nearly #2 alloy.
cull the visual rejects, and weight sort the good looking ones then toss back anything outside a .3 gr window.
then check and lube and weight sort into .1gr batches and shoot only them batches together.
simple.

[toallmy]

So your saying cull them again after that are lube , checked and sized Runfiverun interesting .

[runfiverun]

like I said I got nuthin for going slow.

but that's how I do it for fast.
I shoot 8 and 9 twist AR rifles using @23 grs of I-4895.
I actually cut the Lino in half, then put another 2% tin in with it to make a 4/6/90 alloy.
I use a 2 cavity mold and weight sorting will separate the front cavity from the rear cavity because they cast .1gr apart normally.
I get enough overlap between the two cavity's to get a good bunch of boolts with 2 outlier groups.
[one from each cavity]
anything out of those 3 weights [56.4-.5.-.6] gets thrown back.

[bangerjim]

I cast 223's in several designs for my Mossy bolt gun and use ~12 hardness and PC them. Light loads of ETR7, TiteGroup and full loads of X-Terminator work well.

[toallmy]

Understood

[runfiverun]

I should clear up the rest.
after the initial sorting and such then I check-lube-size
when I want to use them I weight sort them into .1gr batches and store them and shoot them by that .1gr weight group only.
I have a whole shelf of my HV boolits sorted into smaller cups with lids with the weight written on them.
for my 30 cal rifles I sort into 3-.3gr weight groups 166. [123] [456] [789] anything over 166.9 is too big to chamber properly and anything under 166grs is too light for proper fill out.

this is the advantage of making up super big batches of alloy and segregating manipulated alloys for specific purposes.
once you dial things in a bit, then you can make large volumes of boolits for the specific application.

if all the alloy notes blow out of all the buckets after I die someone is gonna have a heck of a time figuring things out [if they cared]

[blixen]

What a timely thread. I've been wanting to shoot some low velocity loads out of my Remmy 700 Varmint in 223 with 1:12 twist.

+1 Except, I'll be casting for a .222 Rem. Going to be taking notes from this thread.

[10x]

I size all my 22 to 0.225" after shake and bake powder coat. This gives me smaller groups

[Shiloh]

If you are pelt hunting, lino makes a good alloy for it. It is a lot harder to find cheaply though. A fellow here uses it in his ancient 22 Hornet. Hasn't seen a jacketed bullet in years.

SHiloh

[runfiverun]

think about it like this.
the better jacketed bullets shoot better because they.
A. are more consistent in weight.
B. have jackets that are more consistent in thickness.
C. have cores that are more consistent in weight and alloy composition.
you pay extra for those consistency's.

when we are making our own at home we are at a disadvantage of sorts.
so the things we have to rely on are our skills as casters, our QC standards, the molds quality, reloading practices, and a scale.
the target tells us how well we are doing, and speed shows us our flaws.

if I want slower speeds I load 11-12grs of 2400, or 4 grs of red-dot and shoot the outlier boolits from the second weight sorting process in my slow twist bolt gun.
they are good boolits, the initial inspection and sorting process showed that.
but somewhere along the way a flaw was introduced.
lube maybe, or a gas check with a nick or a thin spot, either way it's a flaw and will show itself more at higher rotational speeds.

I know this seems like OCD run rampant, but it does help show what you can do, what is important in the
process[es], and it really helps bring the other normal everyday loads around to shooting better groups.

as I was going through the process of the higher speed rounds I had to also refine my loading techniques [neck tension, neck length etc.] and that carried over into better groups for mundane stuff like the 0-3A3, the ruger 308 what have you.

[MT Chambers]

For me, getting cast boolit accuracy in .22 cfs is a struggle, usually I need to turn the speed right down for accuracy.

[wmitty]

rfr

I was shooting cast in the .222 for the first time @ 100 yds last week and was struck by the way the boolits wanted to group but then a flyer or two showed up with each 5 round group fired. I can see I'm gonna have to sort 'em like you are describing if accuracy is the goal.

[castalott]

Here are some of the boolits from my new mold...172246

These are from a 4 cavity Arsenal Brass mold.

I don't know the exact hardness but they are harder than 50/50. They are pretty easy to cast and inspect. Here is how weighing them came out... ( number of each weight)

38.1 grains 4
38.2 4
38.3 11
38.4 8
38.5 12
38.6 0
38.7 2
38.8 5
38.9 6
39.0 0
39.1 1

This is a no groove of my design very well made By Arsenal. Coated with Hi Tek and sized .225. The last group at 40 yards was 6 shots in about 1 and 1/8 inches. But 3 were in a tiny 3 shot group all overlapping and the other 3 were in perfect orbit around it. The crosshairs covered the aiming point and a better scope is called for. The load was Unique and ran about 1850 fps.

The gun was a CZ 222 Remington and there was zero leading.

[castalott]

Here is the NOE 46 grain .228 I size to .225 and sometimes powder coat.
172249

Starting at 9 o'clock is a 32-20 boolet by Arsenal
at 11 is the Noe 46 .228 powder coat sized .225
at 1 pm is the Arsenal 36 grain loaded in 222 case
to it's right is the Noe 46 grain loaded in 222 case
at 4 pm is the NOE boolet again
to the right and in the center are expanded Noe 46 gr stopped in 3 jugs of water
down at 7 is the Noe 46 gr uncoated.

[w30wcf]

.22 Cast bullets I have known.
http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o25/w30wcf/Collector%20Cartridges/22bulletlineup.jpg

Favorites for the .22 Hornet are the NEI 45 and 225438.

Alloy - w.w.+2% air cooled.
Favorite loads - excellent accuracy
primer - small pistol
3.0 /Titegroup or 3.3 /231 - 1,500 fps -replication of the early .22 W.C.F.
8.0 / 4759 - 2,000 f.p.s. - .22 Mag velocity with a heavier bullet
primer - small rifle
11.5 / W680 - 2,650 f.p.s. standard Hornet load

Have fun!
w30wcf

[runfiverun]

you can sub in AA's 1680 for that 680 load above.

castalott:
I like the looks of that noe Boolit.
it looks like a pretty good match to my 22-250's throat.
does it by chance make .227?

[castalott]

castalott:
I like the looks of that noe Boolit.
it looks like a pretty good match to my 22-250's throat.
does it by chance make .227?[/QUOTE]

My mold makes .228+ depending... I haven't had the best luck accuracy wise but I cast them soft for expansion. My buddy's HB 700 shot them better than my brand new CZ...
The Noe boolit distorts when sized so much. Going from .228 plus and adding .001 coating and then sizing to .225 is asking a lot. Sizing base first helps a bunch. If that mold was .224.....wow...

I have the 3 cavity Noe 46 grain mold..... It is absolutely one of the best molds I own. I leave the sprue plate loose enough to swing under its own weight and when it is warm it makes 3 perfect boolets every time.


I suspect the grouping would improve a lot with harder alloy. I've just been on this 'expansion ' kick lately....

[TCFAN]

http://i755.photobucket.com/albums/xx200/TCintheOzarks/Cast%20Boolits/22calibercastboolits-1.jpg (http://s755.photobucket.com/user/TCintheOzarks/media/Cast%20Boolits/22calibercastboolits-1.jpg.html)

My favorite for my 218 Bee is the NOE 225107 with Bullseye powder for a 22 LR duplication load.Also the NOE 225-45 WFN with IMR 4198 powder for a full house load.
For my 222 I like the Lyman Ideal 225415 in HP and solid using Win 748 powder for a velocity of 2500fps with the boolits cast out of type metal.

[runfiverun]

if you wanted to take the chance on them being better a little smaller.
a little bit of that spray in mold drop out stuff usually coats the cavity's and makes them about .001 smaller on each side.

hmm typical of a noe mold, they usually cast a bit over size.
228 would work [barely] much bigger and I'd mess everything up bringing it down to 227 or so.
I'll have to check out the specs on Al's website.

[castalott]

I 'think' that .228 slug was made for the 22 hipower and that is the correct diameter for it. I should cast some of a very hard alloy and check the diameter. I am not putting Noe molds down at all. The load that expanded like that was pure with enough tin to cast.

I am not a good shot off the bench either. I am the weak link...

[castalott]

wow TCFAN! You have been doing this for a while.... That Noe wfn (I called 46 grain) is what alloy/group/speed /etc?

[TCFAN]

wow TCFAN! You have been doing this for a while.... That Noe wfn (I called 46 grain) is what alloy/group/speed /etc?

I have been shooting 22 cast since I bought my first 22 center fire a 222 Mag back in the early 60's

The NOE 225-45 WFN drops from my mold at .226 and weighs 45.3 +or - .2 grs. My allow for the 218 Bee is 9 parts COWW to 1 part linotype. My load for the Bee with this boolit is 11.5grs of IMR 4198.This give me a MV of about 2000 fps from my rifle.Accuracy is 1/2 inch at 50 yards for 5 shots and around 1 1/2 inch at 100 yards.I lube and gas check the boolits in a Lyman .228 size die in a 450 sizer and then size to .225 in a Lee push thru die.
This little boolit out of the Bee is a real killer.In the last couple of weeks I have killed 8 or 10 squirrels out of my apple trees a coon that was in my deer feeders a skunk a groundhog and last night a armadillo. All where one shot kills at 35 to about 65 yards.

The 218 Bee and this NOE 225-45 WFN is a great little cartridge as much fun as the Hornet if not more ...............Terry

[castalott]

The NOE 225-45 WFN,,,,,, This give me a MV of about 2000 fps from my rifle.Accuracy is 1/2 inch at 50 yards for 5 shots and around 1 1/2 inch at 100 yards.

Do the bullets mushroom or shatter? If I could get 1/2 inch 50yard groups I would be thrilled...[smilie=p:


Maybe...just maybe...I'm teachable.....

[TCFAN]

castalott
I really don't know how much they might mushroom.They will pretty much take the head off of a squirrel and on the groundhog I hit him in the neck and pretty much left the head dangle.
With my 222 I use the Lyman Ideal hollow point 225415, I cast it from Linotype and those boolits are going 2500 fps and they very seldom will exit a groundhog at 60 or so yards with a body shot and if they do there is usually several hole in the off side so I think they shatter. ......Terry

[runfiverun]

I'd bet they shatter too, I know lino will pencil through our little ground squirrels here.
I zapped one, one afternoon 5 times before I finally just head shot him and he flipped over.
I thought I was missing and was starting to get bent out of shape.
I decided to walk out where he was and see if I could see the skid marks and what was going on [since I could see the dirt flying up behind/I thought around or next to him]
when I got there and looked at him he was as perforated as a colander.

[ticket machine]

Man! I didn't expect so much knowledge to be reflected back at me. This gives me a lot of stuff to try, both with loads and alloys. I was going to try some 1-20 tin/lead at about 1400fps, and some moly coated linotype slugs somewhat over 2,000fps. I have had good luck using moly applied in a tumbler with ceramic media. I shoot a lot of large pistol bullets, .44,.45, .480 and .500 using moly coated bullets. Nary a speck of leading even with maximum loads. I also intend to try as cast just seating the gas check and hand lubing versus sizing in a .224 die. Most of my guns prefer the as cast bullets. Can't wait to get shootin'

[TCFAN]

Groundhogs are the only animal I have used lino on and that is with the hollow point boolits that I have. I have never tried solid point lino boolits on any thing except paper or steel.......Terry

[castalott]

I use powder coat or Hi Tek so I don't have to have a lube groove. The idea being that each groove has 2 edges that can be difficult to properly fill and inspect. But I also wonder about grooves being necessary (at least one anyway) as a place for trash in the barrel to 'go'.

I am really enjoying the research on the 222. Lead has dried up around here and the frugal part of me enjoys the smaller costs....

This is a wonderful thread...

[runfiverun]

not so much the trash but the displaced alloy from the rifling.
the angles to the lube groove start to matter when you take that displaced metal into consideration.
you want a clean square finish to the edges of the grooves from that displacement.
the angle they are cut will influence the feathering edge or the clean edge.

of course the front drive band and whether it's cut square or tapered or 'non existent' [like the 31-165-A from accurate has] but still really there.
the initial diameter of that band and how it engages not only the throat but the leade angle in the ball seat area influences how much and where the alloy is moved.
alloy plays a role in how things move and matching that to the design will determine just how hard you can push a non-low Tin alloy.
sometimes a balanced alloy is needed so the nose can do the job of aligning things before the drive bands engage the rifling and take the brunt of the engraving force.
all of those things will affect the velocity and accuracy more than a bhn number will.

[castalott]

ok...goofy idea time ( This one area I shine in) ... I am going to load the smooth sided boolets backwards to see how they shoot. I am looking for a 25 yard 'garden pest' super duper load. You guys can stop laughing now....

Dale

[runfiverun]

they'll do alright.
try a swc shape loaded in reverse in a straight walled case with a taper crimp at 25 yds sometime.
something like the 358477 in the 38 special wad cutter cases.
even FMJ loaded backwards in the 308 shoot pretty well at 100 yds.
if they have exposed lead at the base they make a pretty fair deer bullet too.

[robg]

I'm using the new Lee .225 mold with true blue in my tikka .223 1 in 9 twist 7to 9 grains didn't work very well so trying 5to 6.5 Grains tommorow.if that doesn't work I try 2400.

[castalott]

robg... Hello to another of my long lost cousins...

I am curious about the speed of those loads, if you know. I hadn't thought about that powder. Unique has worked the best so far but I have trouble with smaller charges dumping right.

Dale

[runfiverun]

true blue is in the unique burn rate area about as close as universal is.
it burns on a faster curve and produces more gas than unique however.

[robg]

Tried my loads down the range today 6.5gr went into a ragged hole at 25 yards ,no idea of speed yet just trying to get an accurate load .going to load some more this week and try at 50yards .I'll report back next week .the 5and 6gr loads weren't as good .I'm using true blue because its similar in to unique performance but cleaner and meters better ,I throw all my loads from the measure.

[CWME]

I have been killing pests in the yard with the NOE 22-45 being pushed by 3.4 grains of trail boss out of my .221 fireball. Headshot accurate with that load out to about 30 yards. That load will punch through a squirrel lengthwise from chest to rear and then go through a 2x4 still.

I was pushing them with 14-15 gr of H4895 and they would make hamburger.

[TCFAN]

I have been killing pests in the yard with the NOE 22-45 being pushed by 3.4 grains of trail boss out of my .221 fireball. Headshot accurate with that load out to about 30 yards. That load will punch through a squirrel lengthwise from chest to rear and then go through a 2x4 still.

I was pushing them with 14-15 gr of H4895 and they would make hamburger.

Is that the NOE 225-45WFN ? If it is Its been a real killer for me on yard varmints.Like I said above I'm running mine from my 218 Bee at 2000 FPS more or less.I'm impressed with the damage that wide flat nose does........Terry

[castalott]

Have you guys noticed a correlation between % groove riding diameter and accuracy? Some of those bullets have big old noses hanging unsupported in the bore. I do think those noses help the bullet stay 'pointed' in the right direction in flight.

[castalott]

[
Have fun!
w30wcf[/QUOTE]

Hi... Do you have any leading problems... I realize the gas check will help wonders...

Have you tried the coatings?

[trixter]

I hope that this doesn't go too far off topic. I am getting ready to lube and size and install gas checks on .223 lead (.225 cast size) with my Star lubesizer. I have been doing the Lee alox and Lee sizer and it has been working well, but I have the Star, so why not use it?
So here is my question, other than changing die and punch, are there any other adjustments I need to make on the Star. I know that it will take a lot less lube, that is why I am asking.