Very sad at the range for this Florida family.

[starmac]

A father accidently kills his son at the range.
Very sad day for the family and prayers are needed.

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/father-accidentally-shoots-and-kills-14-year-old-son-at-florida-gun-range/ar-AAi5qGb?li=BBnb7Kz

[funnyjim014]

Very sad. I think we all have had a hot shell go down our shirt before. Sh*t happens to good people and all we can do is try to minamise how often it does happen.

[Teddy (punchie)]

sad accident

[dannyd]

very sad and the left will use it, but you will never hear how many died today from beer.

[DougGuy]

Just a few weeks prior to the accident, the gun shop, High Noon, posted on Facebook that "properly trained kids don't have accidents," according to ABC.
The owners offered their condolences and prayers when the news outlet reached out. They also said that every safety protocol was in place.
At this time there are no charges against Brumpy. The investigation is ongoing.

We have a good Hunter Safety Program here in NC, their MOST IMPORTANT and MOST REPEATED and MOST INSTILLED rule, is "Always keep the muzzle pointed in a safe direction."

They ask you questions like "What's the first thing you do to unload your gun?" The answer is ALWAYS KEEP THE MUZZLE POINTED IN A SAFE DIRECTION.

There are several other questions they will ask you in the course, the correct answer is "Always keep the muzzle pointed in a safe direction."

They make you consciously THINK about it. They TRAIN you to put this ONE SIMPLE RULE BEFORE EVERYTHING ELSE.

They drive it home incessantly.

This rule, properly observed, would have prevented this accident. Not could have, but WOULD HAVE.
________________________________

Personally I train people that there is an invisible "tunnel" between their firearm and the target. Like glass walls if you will, and I train them that there is NEVER a circumstance that would allow them to point their firearm at ANYTHING other than the target. When they reload, Keep it pointed into this "tunnel" when they lay it down locked open, it must be pointed in this "tunnel" when they turn to ask a quesiton, MAKE SURE the firearm remains pointed in this "tunnel."

I will leave a range, go get the rangemaster, raise holy hades, whatever I have to do when I see someone with a loaded firearm "sweep" to the sides or behind them or above their head. This careless act could be a criminal offense. You are in commission of a FELONY to point a loaded firearm at someone unless your life is in danger. It is a FELONY to recklessly endanger another person with a firearm in a negligent or reckless or careless manner.

Doesn't matter if you are on a shooting range, OR in a domestic dispute, OR in a conflict where your life is endangered.

The range in Florida trains the kids very well. They should include the adults and MAKE SURE they know that the MOST IMPORTANT thing for them to know in carrying, handling, cleaning, or shooting a firearm, is ALWAYS KEEP THE MUZZLE POINTED IN A SAFE DIRECTION.

Sorry for the caps, but this is a very very important subject. Last I checked, it was pretty danged hard to shoot and kill someone, with the muzzle pointed in a safe direction.

[ArrowJ]

da dad do be idiot. it tragedy for the mom and siblings but dad get no sympathy it did be 100% preventable killing he need go to jail for being unsafe idiot

Maybe, but I am not sure throwing this guy in prison would accomplish anything. Would it make him feel worse than he already does? Probably not. Would it prevent others from making the same mistake? Probably not. Would it make an already unbearable situation worse for the Mother and siblings? Absolutely.

Maybe he was drinking, maybe he was habitually unsafe, maybe a lot of things. If more information was gathered perhaps incarceration would be in order, but if it was a knee jerk unthought out response I think a little sympathy and forgiveness would be more beneficial for his family and the human race.

[starmac]

Lots of maybes, personally I feel worse for him than the deceased or the rest of the family. He is the one that has to live with it the rest of his life.

Calling for charges to me is assinine, no one person can say for 100% certanty that they will never have an accident, no matter how much training they have, or how well they intend to follow the rules. Enough folks use a gun for evil to keep the jails full, no reason to start jailing folks for such as this.

[osteodoc08]

Wow. I could only imagine losing a child. Especially at my own hands. I send prayers for this family, this child and this father.

[starmac]

I truly hope you never have an accident yourself.

[crowbuster]

+1 starmac.

[ArrowJ]

Maybe you are right manwithnoplan, but I think you would see it as a slightly more nuanced situation if you were directly involved, but maybe not. Either way, let us hope you are never appointed as a judge...or sit on a jury for that matter.

[ArrowJ]

I find funny world want to crucifix parents for kid fall in gorilla house and get eat by aligater but dis be no big deal because it was accident

This is a very big deal. That is not up for debate. I would want to answer many more questions about the parents of the children involved in all these situations before I was ready to throw them in prison.

I personally think there is a difference between harm done to family vs. non family members. The difference is not in the value of the human being that is harmed or killed, but in the needed response to a) punish bad behavior b) prevent further bad behavior. I have been known to be wrong though.

[dragon813gt]

Just a few weeks prior to the accident, the gun shop, High Noon, posted on Facebook that "properly trained kids don't have accidents," according to ABC.

This is one of the most foolish statements I've read in a while. But seeing as how it came from a gun shop I'm not surprised. I guess whoever made the statement doesn't have a dictionary to look up the definition of accident :popcorn:

[big bore 99]

Very sad. My sincere prayers go out to his family.

[country gent]

Learning firearms saftey starts with classes training and then hands on, from there its gaining eperience and it becoming second nature. I have seen people at the begineers DCM Match that handled frearms for years had hunter saftey and the 4 hour range saftey class before the practice match on Saturday. Almost every one of these matches at some point a person had a problem and with out thinking what they were doing turned to get help from coach also turning the rifle with them. Safe no but with out thinking it happens. Until people ahve the time that handling a firearm is second nature and can keep saftey above problems and range issues things happen. While in this case I dont know what happened Ill bet the accident happened due to an issue happening and with out thinking it was over. Years afo I had a 30-06 case from a Garand drop down my shooting coat onto my back ( came to rest on that tender spot right under the shoulder blade) All I could do was lay there and grit my teeth as the case burnt me. My scorer and nice young gentleman from the AMU noticed and leaned down asking I told him and he pulled it out. But with out the range training and state of mind I could easily have rolled up to get help and been unsafe. Its not just the classes taken but also the time to ingrain it in to where you do it automatically with out thinking or realizing it. Range Saftey isnt just training but a mindset followed unthinking.

[fast ronnie]

Accidents can and will happen. We had someone shooting hand-loads and one had a double charge just a few weeks ago. That is why range rules are strictly enforced at our range, including safety glasses and hearing protection, chamber flags, and guns pointed down-range AT ALL TIMES. It only takes ONE SECOND to have a lapse in judgement. I sometimes work as a range officer, and have been reminded about something a couple of times. I know of NO ONE who has never made a mistake.

[starmac]

I find funny world want to crucifix parents for kid fall in gorilla house and get eat by aligater but dis be no big deal because it was accident

If you will go back and look at them threads, I did not condemn them parents either, I raised 3 kids and have young grandkids now, anyone that claims they can't get out of their sight in an instant, just isnt being realistic.

Now the alligator with the parents ignoring warning signs and LETTING the kid wade in the water, you may have an arguement on.

[bangerjim]

My heart goes out to the dad and family. It is certanily sad that accidents like that happen. A young potential life cut short. I cannot imagine the horror that dad will experience for the rest of his life.

Truly sad. God works in mysterious ways. Sometimes we cannot understand His ways.

[Three44s]

I think that father is suffering beyond anyone's comprehension that's participating in this thread!

I agree with the fact that adults should receive better training but I feel I am in no position to judge him .........

......... learn from his mistake .......... yes, ......... judge no!

Three 44s

[shoot-n-lead]

involuntary manslaughter I read on other forum?

Never happen...

[shoot-n-lead]

It get really gets old...there is always someone that has handled a similar situation...perfectly.

Honestly, there is so much bull posted on forums...

[bangerjim]

dads going in divorce wood love me I wood ive dem custody if they have better support than wife?


WHAAA....................???????????

Musta been a butte dial! :2 drunk buddies:

[RogerDat]

Having something burning hot unexpectedly on the body can be a distracting, there is certainly a real potential for an instinctive reaction to be the wrong action. This time it has tragic consequences for the family. Prayers, condolences, even some reflection on how one needs to think "gun down" before any other action seem appropriate.

Lot of reasons for a criminal prosecution taking place. I do not see this situation aligning with any of them. Punishment? Discourage others from the action? Protect society? None of them apply to this tragedy.

[RogerDat]

Father takes responsibility, saying it was him not the firearm.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/father-gun-killed-son-shooting-range-40344334

A friend of mine shooting at a muskrat digging in his earthen dam one morning while still in his bathrobe had hot .22 brass land and stick between his toes. Left a burn and he said he would never make the mistake of shooting barefoot again. Father was likewise shooting a .22 pistol.

[Blackwater]

A good friend just recently shot himself cleaning his gun, a Glock .40. Got hit in the heel of one hand, and the bullet passed through and into his leg. He sulked in embarassment for about 2 wks. but he's smart and honest enough to know it could have been much worse.

These things do happen, and I think it's simply due to our universal human tendency to err, no matter what activity we're involved with. With many things we do - driving, shooting, etc. - one instant of failing to exercise good judgment, maybe due to being tired or having our full attention diverted, really CAN lead to tragedy. I know of no defense against our collective and individual humanity. It has long struck me that it's often the most experienced and avid among us who have about half the accidents. The Darwin principle will always apply to the idjits, but no matter how our best efforts may work, or how consistently we habitually apply them, we're still human, and prone to - sooner or later - err. And when we err, it CAN cost us so very, very much more than we'd ever want to pay for the briefest moment's inattention. And not one of us here, even the most consistently careful and consistent among us, can honestly claim perfection.

This is why my heart goes out to those involved in this shooting, and the family and friends. They'll be in my prayers.

[country gent]

The match that happened at was 90 or 91 CMP Leg match being fired at Camp Perry. I believe the light spot is still there if you want to come and see it. Were were shooting the 600 yd prone stage when I felt it hit I was raised up a little loading and had just let the bolt go on the M1A to chamber the single round from the mag. The leather shooting coat and sweatshirt acted as insulation holding the hot case against my sking and the heat in. When the scorer got hold of it it was to the point of sticking.

[DerekP Houston]

I think that father is suffering beyond anyone's comprehension that's participating in this thread!

I agree with the fact that adults should receive better training but I feel I am in no position to judge him .........

......... learn from his mistake .......... yes, ......... judge no!

Three 44s

Ill agree with this part and add my on anecdote. I consider myself well versed in safety features/functions and thought i would be fine to teach my wife some simple target practice with a 22lr. I'll be damned if we didn't have an exact same situation of a hot shell falling down her shirt. I ducked dived and screamed at her to put the gun down, but all she felt was a hot burn and thought she had shot herself. Now I know to only load a single round at a time with newbies until they know better, but i've also sworn off teaching anyone basic gun safety as clearly I am not a sufficient teacher. I now recommend the NRA safety course (pre-cursor to CHL here) to anyone that goes shooting with me. It takes a split second to make an accident fatal and my heart goes out to the family.

[Hickok]

My prayers for the father and the rest of the family during this horrible tragedy.

So very sad.

[shooter93]

Humans are flawed. We make mistakes , sometimes huge ones no matter how much training you have. I've seen "top rated" firearms instructors make classic mistakes. A millisecond lapse and it's over. It's easy to blame the father and in fact he admits it was his lapse. That doesn't mean he belongs in jail. A large number of hunting accidents in this state are not caused by the new hunters but by the "old experienced hunters" Many of them could not pass our hunter safety program. They think it's the young kids messing up but it's not, it the hunter declaring I have 35 years experience when actually they have one years experience 35 times. Sitting in the same place every year and the "know" that area and then one day someone new wanders by and looks like a deer. None of us was there. We don't know everything that happened and it's easy to be critical under those circumstances. The father has a huge burden to bear the rest of his life. No matter how well you think you are trained but for the grace of God goes thee. Even the military has it's share of friendly fire deaths.

[dtknowles]

hunters who kill man on accdent need go to jail to

Please can you tell us where you are from and why your written use of the English language seems strange?

A proper sentence with punctuation and capitalization would be: Hunters who accidentally kill men also need to go to jail.

Not picking on you, just pointing out why I suspect you have a different background and that might be why you could imagine jail time for accidents. Gross negligence would be needed and hunting accidents and shooting accidents cause by momentary lapse in judgement do not meet this standard. Persistence disregard for proper safety measures or failure to correct repeated mistakes would be gross negligence. If the shooter had a history of pointing the muzzle in an unsafe direction that would be different just like if he was under the influence of alcohol or drugs. Brain farts are forgiven reckless behavior is not.

Tim

[abunaitoo]

Very sad.
Very preventable with proper firearms safety training.
Number one rule I stress when giving a class is "Finger off the trigger until ready to fire"
I even carry a stick to hit anyone who I catch with a finger on the trigger. It works well.
He probably had his finger on the trigger when he flipped the pistol back.
I only hope he, and the rest of the family, don't blame the firearm.

[starmac]

Since he was firing the handgun and the spent shell burned him, I am sure his finger was on the trigger.

He has already said it was his doing NOT the guns fault.

[jonp]

Involuntary Manslaughter or somesuch would not be hard to prove in this case. At least Careless and Neglegent etc... Should they go after him? What would that prove, whatever would be done is less than he is doing to himself.

[Blackwater]

To what end and purpose could putting this man in jail serve? Is the law to serve man, or man to serve the law? These are the questions that always arise from situations like this. If anyone has the answers, or thinks they do (other than manwithnoplan) please instruct me on what would be gained by putting this man in jail or prison. I don't understand that.

Today, everybody seeks to place blame on someone, but never wants to accept any blame themselves. What a crazy, mixed up nation we've become!

[claude]

I agree with Blackwater, no good purpose would be served.

In my mind, as feeble as it may be, Deuteronomy 19:1-10 covers this. It was an accident, with no malice or forethought, there was no intent, the man should get a pass.

I can't imagine the anguish this person must be suffering.

[DLCTEX]

I hope some of the judges here never have an accident if they would be this hard on themselves.

[dtknowles]

Involuntary Manslaughter or somesuch would not be hard to prove in this case. At least Careless and Neglegent etc... Should they go after him? What would that prove, whatever would be done is less than he is doing to himself.

Actually it might not meet the standard of Involuntary Manslaughter in Florida:

http://statelaws.findlaw.com/florida-law/florida-involuntary-manslaughter-laws.html

The state would have to prove either culpable negligence or reckless behavior.

"To establish involuntary manslaughter (http://criminal.findlaw.com/criminal-charges/involuntary-manslaughter-overview.html), the prosecutor must show that the defendant acted with "culpable negligence." Florida statutes define culpable negligence as a disregard for human life while engaging in wanton or reckless behavior. The state may be able to prove involuntary manslaughter by showing the defendant's recklessness or lack of care when handling a dangerous instrument or weapon, or while engaging in a range of other activities that could lead to death if performed recklessly.''

Also like you or someone else said they probably would not even consider charges.

Tim

[DerekP Houston]

I agree with Blackwater, no good purpose would be served.

In my mind, as feeble as it may be, Deuteronomy 19:1-10 covers this. It was an accident, with no malice or forethought, there was no intent, the man should get a pass.

I can't imagine the anguish this person must be suffering.



I tend to agree with this line of thought as well.

[Hamish]

Please can you tell us where you are from and why your written use of the English language seems strange?

A proper sentence with punctuation and capitalization would be: Hunters who accidentally kill men also need to go to jail.

Tim

XFOXSHOGO's brother?

[Jake70]

Prison is meant to keep bad people out of the general population. People who are dangerous, who want to harm you either physically, or financially, or people who are so reckless, that they are constantly endangering lives.

What happened was an accident, and a tragedy caused by a single, momentary lapse of judgement. This man is in more pain than any prison could ever inflict. His imprisonment wouldn't protect anyone. It wouldn't even punish him any more than he's already being punished. All it would do is cause further tragedy to a grieving family. You would be harming the mother and the other children more than anyone else, and for what? Some false sense of justice?

Prison is not the answer to every problem.

[shooterg]

Assuming the man is a caring father, his punishment will be with him the rest of his life. Jail time would be nothing compared to having this on you. He may well end up in divorce court, suffer with suicidal thoughts/etc. - I cannot imagine being responsible for the death of a child in any manner.

[fatelk]

I don't want to even imagine that kind of thing. It sounds like a horrible, horrible accident due to inexperience. I feel terrible for the whole family. A similar sort of thing happened right near where we used to live. A teenage boy accidentally shot his older brother by trying to catch a falling shotgun. Really nice family; heartbreaking.

I sometimes think I'm a bit over-the-top in teaching my kids about gun safety, but then I hear horror stories and just keep at it. Safety is a big part of the talk whenever we're around guns. If I thought one of my kids might be harmed by one of my guns, I'd pile all my guns out in the yard and burn them myself. I drill and drill the safety rules into them every chance I get.

[jonp]

Actually it might not meet the standard of Involuntary Manslaughter in Florida:

http://statelaws.findlaw.com/florida-law/florida-involuntary-manslaughter-laws.html

The state would have to prove either culpable negligence or reckless behavior.

"To establish involuntary manslaughter (http://criminal.findlaw.com/criminal-charges/involuntary-manslaughter-overview.html), the prosecutor must show that the defendant acted with "culpable negligence." Florida statutes define culpable negligence as a disregard for human life while engaging in wanton or reckless behavior. The state may be able to prove involuntary manslaughter by showing the defendant's recklessness or lack of care when handling a dangerous instrument or weapon, or while engaging in a range of other activities that could lead to death if performed recklessly.''

Also like you or someone else said they probably would not even consider charges.

Tim

Waving a loaded gun around is pretty reckless. I'm not a lawyer and don't play one on TV. I'm sure he is guilty of something like that but the point I was making was that it would serve little purpose to charge him.

[w5pv]

Prayers sent

[dtknowles]

Waving a loaded gun around is pretty reckless. I'm not a lawyer and don't play one on TV. I'm sure he is guilty of something like that but the point I was making was that it would serve little purpose to charge him.

I agree with the no benefit is charging him. I don't see it as him waving his gun around that would be reckless, the way it was reported and it could be wrong or I could have misinterpreted the report but it was an impulsive act of short duration.

With a weak case and no real benefit to charging him, I don't see it happening.

Tim

[dtknowles]

I be descend from Africa and from the streets. I product of American educate system

How many generations in America and where did you go to school beside the streets? Were your African ancestors Black, White or Arab?

Tim

[blackthorn]

It appears to me that this terrible tragedy came about due to an involuntary reaction to the sudden burn from the hot casing! How tragic that circumstance placed his son in the wrong place at the wrong time for all concerned. I have nothing but sympathy for all that family, especially for the father who, as others have said, must live every day of the rest of his life with the knowledge that he killed his son. My prayers and thoughts are with him!

[ArrowJ]

if I accident hit my wife with car I in trouble.

Well, not necessarily. It does happen that no charges are brought for such things for the same reasons folks in this thread think it would be foolish to prosecute this guy.

Either way, you have the right to your opinion. It looks like they will not be following your line of reasoning in this particular case, and for that I am grateful.

[snowwolfe]

da dad do be idiot. it tragedy for the mom and siblings but dad get no sympathy it did be 100% preventable killing he need go to jail for being unsafe idiot

English dude.

[DerekP Houston]

I be descend from Africa and from the streets. I product of American educate system

Lots of us are products of the American Education system and it appears you were not well served by it. That is a shame, I will continue to read your posts as long as they are coherent enough for me to make sense of your point from context clues. Best of luck to you.

I don't see the point in incarcerating a man who will already be tormented for the remainder of his life. To what end would that serve, Justice? Your need to punish someone? Tragic mistakes happen, there is no way around that. Not being there or seeing first hand what happened I'll leave judgement up to those who know better.

[Shade]

Felony conviction, take his guns away, no jail time, he will be living his own personal hell.

[seagiant]

Hi,
Hate seeing this!

Lost a 13 year old friend in a hunting accident when a boy (I was not there, or involved)

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

When I got my first DAISY BB Gun.

There was a little pamphlet with the 10 rules of gun safety!

IF you kept those rules you would NEVER have an accident!

When you DID have an accident you HAD broken one or more of those rules!!!

[Alan in Vermont]

Lots of us are products of the American Education system and it appears you were not well served by it. That is a shame, I will continue to read your posts as long as they are coherent enough for me to make sense of your point from context clues. Best of luck to you.

I had to give up trying to read NoPlan's posts, I misplaced my secret decoder ring.