Cast lead bullets

[leadtag]

Forgive me if this question seems stupid but I'll ask anyways :-)
Im a machinist and have access to all kinds of CNC Lathes and regular CNC Is it possible based on the hardcast lead properties by using an end mill to make a slight hollow point out of a Hardcast bullet for my 500 S&W, Best of both worlds if could get some expansion and deep penetration without blowing up, could experiment and use a 90 degree 1/4 drill mill or other varying diameter sizes 3/16,1/8 etc. and varying depths. Thanks

[leadtag]

Forgive me if this question seems stupid but I'll ask anyways :-)
Im a machinist and have access to all kinds of CNC Lathes and regular CNC Is it possible based on the hardcast lead properties by using an end mill to make a slight hollow point out of a Hardcast bullet for my 500 S&W, Best of both worlds if could get some expansion and deep penetration without blowing up, could experiment and use a 90 degree 1/4 drill mill or their varying sizes 3/16,1/8 etc.of varying depths. Thanks
Either I asked the question of the century or it was the most foolish question unworthy of a response LOL.

[KenH]

I suspect folks were confused by the post. Are you talking about using a CNC to actually drill a hollow point in each bullet? OR, the CNC to make a hollow point mold? I think you're talking about drilling each bullet? Should work, and with the CNC a bullet holder might be designed to quickly insert and remove each bullet for drilling.

With CNC you could also quickly change the design of the hollow point to allow quick testing of each design for expansion.

Ken H>

[Outpost75]

Nothing fancy, but I made a holder for a Wilson case trimmer so that I could run a No.2 center drill into the bullet and cut a few by hand. Does a slick job.

[leadtag]

Sorry for the possible confusion,I would be modifying purchased premade cast performance hardcast bullets I would be using a collet block locked into a Kurt vise in my HAAS CNC and using a 1/2 collet with a stop on the backside so the cast performance hardcast bullet has a consistent stop edge when loading individually , then with my dial indicator finding deadnuts center and going from there on width and depth experimenting.
do you think hardcast would fragment or get a little bit of mushrooming based on a little bit of consistent hollowpoint cavity?
I just figured since their is two schools of thought on the performance of hardcast not damaging enough based on bullet expansion and not deforming and Jacketed XTP blowing up two much and not penetrating enough in a possible self defense situation especially in my case here in Grizzly country of Montana, that after bears spray was used first then if luckily given a second chance should spray not work and my S&W 6 1/2 is used then hopefully a hardcast would open up a bit all the while still penetrating deep and causing lots of tissue damage. I know a hardcast penetrates deep just thought if possible too have it open up a bit beyond its .5 size to make it even more of a destructive round. Thanks for the replies

[leadtag]

Nothing fancy, but I made a holder for a Wilson case trimmer so that I could run a No.2 center drill into the bullet and cut a few by hand. Does a slick job.
On Hardcast? and if hardcast, does it mushroom a bit without fragmenting?Thanks

[jcren]

It appears you are looking to make what is called a cup point. I don't know cnc but have used drill bits to cup 45 bullets to experiment with expansion and it works well.

[leadtag]

Nothing fancy, but I made a holder for a Wilson case trimmer so that I could run a No.2 center drill into the bullet and cut a few by hand. Does a slick job.
Great idea on the center drills, better yet than my initial idea I think. my set of 1-6 center drills should be fun to experiment with. Small and deep hole with a beginning chamfer. Perfect. Looks good on paper. My only concern was the hardness of hardcast, if it would permit expansion without fragmenting to much.

[lightload]

I have heard of another trick with very hard cast lead bullets: using a small torch with pinpoint flame to heat the bullet's front end to reduce nose hardness. The rest of the bullet remained hard. The nose expanded yet deep penetration was easily attained.


It's likely that your post would have been more rapidly responded to had it been placed in one of the other forum categories. Few of us visit this section. Welcome!

[leadtag]

Yeah ,I screwed up on the posting location.
I wonder if a moderator can relocate this thread?

[runfiverun]

where do you want it?

here is my take on what you want to do.
looks cool, works like crud.
high antimony alloys have a shear factor to them.
they will allow the lead to flow backwards but will break off in chunks at stress points in the alloy.
uneven stress points, leading to unbalance and possibly tumbling.

I'd stay with the flat nose.
they give you better straight line penetration, and disrupt enough tissue pushing their way through to create a radial wave path much larger than the boolit itself is.
the stretching of the skin on the boolits exit tears a much larger hole and is where the blood leaks out of the animal.

a non/slight mushrooming boolit will do the same thing over and over and over.
we would all like to see a little better internal wounding but if I have to trade some of that for an exit wound i'll do it every time.

[Brewster6514]

tried drilling a hole in my .44 mag boolits and after shooting it in my wax/Vaseline mix it did nothing. gave up and now leave them as they cast. just too hard to deform but I should get good penetration. :smile:
http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c315/brewster6514/20160704_101458_zpsh99f4jau.jpg (http://s30.photobucket.com/user/brewster6514/media/20160704_101458_zpsh99f4jau.jpg.html)

[500MAG]

They make a device for this:
http://www.midwayusa.com/Product/371968/forster-universal-hollow-pointer-1-8

[leadtag]

where do you want it?

here is my take on what you want to do.
looks cool, works like crud.
high antimony alloys have a shear factor to them.
they will allow the lead to flow backwards but will break off in chunks at stress points in the alloy.
uneven stress points, leading to unbalance and possibly tumbling.

I'd stay with the flat nose.
they give you better straight line penetration, and disrupt enough tissue pushing their way through to create a radial wave path much larger than the boolit itself is.
the stretching of the skin on the boolits exit tears a much larger hole and is where the blood leaks out of the animal.

a non/slight mushrooming boolit will do the same thing over and over and over.
we would all like to see a little better internal wounding but if I have to trade some of that for an exit wound i'll do it every time.
Not sure for the location , thanks for the advice!

[44man]

Entirely a good idea to get a little expansion with the .500 S&W. I had trouble on deer with a WFN, cast hard, just poked holes with my .500 JRH. I cast half the nose soft with 3# of pure and 1# of WW lead. No HP and it got so destructive most deer drop but a bone hit will ruin a lot of meat, yet the boolit does not stop either. You don't need a a lot. I don't like a HP for hunting. The soft point with a hard base is all you need.
If you have to buy boolits, I would not go more then a cup point.
Cast Performance boolits are not as hard as mine so it should work. I would think at the velocity of the S&W, use them as is. They seem like air cooled WW metal to me. You know nothing until an animal is shot.

[Outpost75]

Great idea on the center drills, better yet than my initial idea I think. my set of 1-6 center drills should be fun to experiment with. Small and deep hole with a beginning chamfer. Perfect. Looks good on paper. My only concern was the hardness of hardcast, if it would permit expansion without fragmenting to much.

My experience has been that bullets harder than about 13-14 BHN tend to fracture the expanded petals off, rather than staying attached. A fragmenting bullet isn't necessarily bad, if the remaining shank retains enough weight to provide adequate penetration, and then its residual wadcutter shape provides full-caliber crush.

I prefer soft 1:30 tin/lead alloy in most revolver and rifle cartridges up to full blackpowder velocities, about 1200 fps in revolvers and 1400 fps in rifles, in calibers such as the .44-40, .44 Magnum and .45 Colt. When gaschecked given proper fit and lubrication the 1:30 alloy will stand up to about 1800 fps in rifles and 1400 fps in handguns.

For higher velocities, 1 part linotype to 5 parts of wheelweights, about 13.5 BHN works well and expands some above 1500 fps.

[Mk42gunner]

Sounds like a lot of testing for expansion needs to be done to verify your results. The question then becomes what do you use to verify expansion?

Robert

[modified5]

:2gunsfiring_v1:If I had a cranky grizzly close enough to season him with bear spray, I would be awfully tempted to shoot him first, then season him. :-)

[KYCaster]

You're looking at an infinite number of possibilities.

By changing alloy, bullet weight, velocity, HP dia. and HP depth you can duplicate almost any jacketed bullet performance. From frangible to sledge hammer solids....you can do it with cast lead.

All it takes is LOTS and LOTS of experimenting.

Good luck.
Jerry

[dverna]

Nothing wrong with experimenting. KYcaster is correct. There is a point where one asks if it is really worth the effort for the cost of buying good factory bullets needed for hunting.

Once a good load is found, and BTW, that is much easier to do with jacketed bullets, the number of hunting bullets used every year is minimal. Three rounds to check zero, maybe another couple of three round groups to dial the scope in, and whatever you need for the hunt. A box of 100 lasts a long time. And much cheaper than finding a good cast load. Plus no issues with first round out of the group.

For me, cast is only for cheap practice and/or light loads that do not beat you up. With the excellent selection of factory bullets, cast bullets have no performance advantage.

I understand the pride factor of downing game with a bullet you have made.

[44man]

I have had better results with cast and even better accuracy across the board.
Yes they are cheaper but I shoot ONLY my deer loads all year with very few exceptions. At a dime to 13 cents a shot, WHY NOT.
Jacketed or factory for the .500 S&W can mean a new Mortgage. Now I don't have the S&W, just the JRH but cost is a few cents difference. Tad more powder. To use cast precision boolits will cost a little more but I never had any complaints. I used them until I started making my own molds.
Cast can cover the spectrum from a loss to instant kills to meat on the moon. loaded right they can beat any "J" word in all departments.
If anyone thinks a HP is needed in the .500, here is the entrance from my JRH, also ruined the neck on exit. Just a soft point.171670 It blew bones to dust and large bones had meat detached.

[runfiverun]

Man Jim,,
that's worse than some of my 25-06 experiments.
Speer's idea of controlled expansion and mine is definitely not the same at 3100 fps.
they made some pretty fair coyote and rock chuck bullets though.

[44man]

Yeah, deer was walking fast so I had a lead on her. As the hammer dropped, she stopped. I had figured for a behind the shoulder hit.
Amazing what 1350 fps can do, can't imagine faster or a big HP.

[olafhardt]

I once read an article by some African hunter ( Buhlmiller?) Pining for a true 50 caliber rifle so he could shoot chunks cut from 1/2" copper rod. I consider my 500 handirifle to shoot a pre-expanded boolit. I shoot the Lee modern miniball which is just a humongous hollow based wad cutter weighing 365 grains. I load them both straight and also reversed. I have considered glueing a buck shot or ball bearing into the hollow cavity but haven't done it. There is a lot you can do with 500S&W using the 50 caliber muzzle loading stuff if you reload and cast.