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View Full Version : Things to consider when loading the .223/5.56 for Carbines?



W.R.Buchanan
06-25-2016, 03:59 PM
I have answered this question several times here and in other forums using my main considerations for loading the cartridge.

People always seem to ask ,,,"What is the best or most accurate load for their AR or Mini14 or other Carbine."

"Most Accurate Load" is pretty easy,,, It is the Bullet, Powder, Primer combination that produces the best accuracy in your gun, which is probably similar,,, but ultimately different than everybody else's gun. You may find it right out of the gate or chase it endlessly for years,,, Whatever blows your skirt up.

"Best Load" has a whole different meaning when applied to a Semi Auto Weapon. Things like "Reliability," "Cost,", "Ease of Manufacturing," and "Acceptable Accuracy," all come into play. "Best Load" here means that which encompasses most of the basic considerations and gets the job done.

Obviously you can burn up a lot of ammo with a Semi Auto Gun. Does every shot fired need to be the most accurate load available for that particular gun or would "Acceptable Accuracy," be good enough?

Will the steel targets or paper, or bottles and cans know the difference if they are hit by a .25 cent bullet or one that cost you <.10 cents?

Will YOU be able to shoot well enough to know the difference between a 1" group and a 1.5-2" group, and whether it was the load, the gun, or you that blew your Sub MOA Group? Not trying to be insensitive here, but 99% of the shooting public can't and that includes myself. A more practical approach might be prudent here?

It all depends on what your goals in shooting these weapons is. I can fully understand the quest for the "Magic Load" that delivers sub MOA accuracy from your gun, if your hobby is bench rest type shooting at a range on paper. That unto itself is a reasonable pursuit. But those needs are completely different than the needs of the vast majority of AR, Mini and other Carbine shooters. You bought a semi auto gun so you can shoot faster, otherwise a bolt gun would be more suited to your pursuits.

For most of us the cost, ease of manufacture, and reliability far outweigh the need for guilt edged accuracy.

My Standard Load for .223/5.56 is 25.0 gr of BL-C2 or Win 748 (Close to the Same Powder) with the Bulk Hornady 55 gr FMJBT.(.07ea!) using Range Brass which is abundant nearly everywhere people shoot.

I only use this one load across my AR, my Ruger Mini 14, and my Kel-Tec SU16CA and it functions perfectly in all of them. That said 25-26 gr of that powder would work fine. I think max for this powder/bullet is about 26.5 gr or thereabouts. This powder is used for Military Ammo for a few reasons. And those reasons are consistency in drops in automated machinery and clean burning which affects reliability.

Accuracy is very "acceptable" with all guns under 2" at 100 yards and the Kel-Tec and AR closer to 1.5". All my guns have Red Dot Sights on them so it is impossible to shoot better than this for that reason alone. I use all these guns for "Offhand Shooting" of Steel and Cardboard targets, and general plinking,,, so reliability and ease of manufacture are more important than absolute accuracy for me. Also the Red Dot sights are used to enhance Target Acquisition Speed which is more important than perfect shot placement on targets of this type.

One thing about my process for loading this cartridge is that I load these in volume on my Dillon 550B so I want the least amount of problems. That is the main reason for the BL-C2 which is about the consistency of table salt, and meters perfectly.

The Boat Tail 55gr FMJBT Bullets also start easily in the case mouth and have a cannelure to crimp in. I bought 6000 of these bullets last year when Mid South was selling them in bulk for $471.87+ free shipping!(the box weighed 55lbs!) that's .07 each which is .02 cheaper than the same recycled bullets I had bought previously.

When I load these I start with sized, cleaned and primed cases so I don't have to mess with the priming function on my press. It's an extra step in case prep but it smooth's out the process for me. The Second Station Charges the case, third Seats Bullet, and fourth Crimps. I can do 100 every 15 minutes without breaking a sweat with no stoppages or problems of any kind..

I also recommend using a Lee Collet Crimping Die which will save you alot of time, headaches, and give you more consistent crimps, and it is not reliant on exact case length to produce consistent crimp like a roll crimp die is.

Since I do not require perfection as far as accuracy because of my intended uses, the process I have laid out above works best for me for these guns. None of them are Varmint Rifles requiring sub MOA accuracy, but all of them will work well for all intended uses of a Semi Auto Rifle. Those uses for me are Steel and Cardboard (3 gun)Targets engaged under time pressure, Casual Plinking and possible Defensive Needs. All of which are well served by this simple and effective load that is at about 95% of Max.

My basic message here is not that you should absolutely use "my load" because it is "The Best Load. It is that you should find a load using the considerations listed above and stick with it, instead of endlessly chasing Nirvana.

The whole object of shooting and reloading ammo is to actually "shoot at something!" Not just to make empty cases to reload.

Hope this helps, and I would submit that if your quest for the "best load" uses the criteria listed above,,, you will be more likely to find it.

Lots of times we are not told the basic reasons why we do stuff a certain way. This is a flaw in our Education System that I will cure when elected President. :mrgreen:

Randy

aspangler
06-25-2016, 04:21 PM
Good post Randy. I use H335, Varmint, IMR 4895, Blc2, 748 and two or three others in the same burn range and just load 25 grains and forget it. My AR will eat any of them and still get me sub 2" groups at 100 yds. Good enough for me. I use my bolt gun form varmints and the AR for fun.
YMMV

runfiverun
06-25-2016, 11:51 PM
I use my AR's as varmint rifles and my bolt gun for target work.
two of my AR's will out shoot my target bolt gun [which is picky about it's loads] the other is just an AR, but
it's still a good squirrel rifle.

I too keep a good supply of the hornady fmj's on hand and follow basically your same recipe of using a ball powder [AA-2230] and the Dillon to reload on.
the varmint rounds get done on the Dillon too but usually with H-322 under them.
heck the cast loads are done on the small rifle Dillon 550 half the time.

Crowcifier6
06-26-2016, 08:55 AM
Great post Randy. You've summed up what I've learned about loading for my Mini 14 over the past year, quite eloquently. I'm loading on a single stage, but I'm on the hunt for a 550 to load .223 and 9mm as well.

Garyshome
06-26-2016, 09:12 AM
Good post.

dudel
06-26-2016, 09:20 AM
Spot on Randy. I use the same bullets (also got a deal on them from MidSouth) with Varget. I have a cast load with a Bator boolet; but those bulk Hornady 55gr FMJ-BT load easily, and shoot great for me.

MrWolf
06-26-2016, 09:30 AM
My worked up load is the same as Randy's within 3/4 grain - yea on my Dillon 550 close enough. Same bulk Hornaday.

DerekP Houston
06-26-2016, 09:59 AM
I'd say spot on post as well. To me, my AR is not a high accuracy gun to begin with so I don't try to find maximum accuracy either. Bolt gun is for accuracy loads and fire formed cases, semi auto is for general plinking and shorter range. I've used the 55gr hornady bullets as well, 223/5.56 and 9mm are not worth my time to cast for yet, that may change in the future.

JonB_in_Glencoe
06-26-2016, 10:11 AM
Great post Randy,
these are the things to know, for everyone who buys an AR (or similar) for the first time, and wants to reload for it for the first time, and as we all know, there are many people in this category.

Minerat
06-26-2016, 10:39 AM
Good post Randy,

I too buy bulk bullets and but run mine thru a Piggyback RCBS set up. However I have a problem with stuck cases. I can't find a happy medium for lubing the cases where I can consistently feed the progressive loader without having a stuck case every so often. It is a PIA to fix that. I guess I could go back to the old Lube Pad and the RCBS grease lube from the 70's but then you have to clean the cases afterwards and have sticky fingers to boot. What lube do you use short of a carbide resizer die?

Thanks,

DerekP Houston
06-26-2016, 10:42 AM
I don't have a 223 she'll plate yet so I use my turret still for them. I lay em all out flat and give them a spritz with hornady one shot lube. I believe my dies are carbide as well though, just seems to make the resizing easier.

myg30
06-26-2016, 11:09 AM
I take a zip lok baggy, pump a few sprays of home made case lube like one shot, toss in a handful of brass and tumble the bag till all the cases feel lubed. Same method for tumble lubing boolits, a handful in a baggy. No carbide here fer .223 and so far works very well.

Mike

runfiverun
06-26-2016, 11:16 AM
do your re-sizing and de-priming off the progressive.
clean the lube off the cases.

then run the cases through the press with the size die screwed in just far enough to make sure the case mouths are rounded out over the expander ball.

it might seem like a lot of extra work.
but in the long run it really isn't, banging on your charging handle in the middle of a P-dog shoot is a lot less fun and more work than an extra hour of your time at home.

Rizzo
06-26-2016, 02:27 PM
My Standard Load for .223/5.56 is 25.0 gr of BLC-2/ Win 748 (same powder different label on the bottle.)

This caught my eye so I researched it a little and found a post from another site:

Originally Posted By 500SWshooter:
I read in different places on the net that BL-C(2) and Win 748 may be the same powder as they are owned by the same company and they seem to be very close in terms of the burn rate. So to ease my mind I sent an e-mail to hodgdon in an effort to get a real answer. They replied " BL-C (2) and Win 748 are not and have never been the same powder".

Of course "I read it on the Internet" so,.....well, you know how that goes.

Otherwise, good post OP, thanks.

W.R.Buchanan
06-26-2016, 03:12 PM
Rizzo: When I called Hodgdon about 3 months ago and asked this specific question, they told me it WAS the Same Powder! It used to be made in different lots for Winchester, and as we know sometimes different lots have slightly different burn rates, however they also told me that NOW all the powder in one lot is bottled up and the W748 or BL-C2 labels are applied afterwards depending on orders.

This same person would also argue that H110 and W296 are different and they never have been despite many assertions to the contrary. I have known this since 1976!

It also depends on which loading manual you consult. Lyman 49 has different max charges for these two but Hornady has the same. go figure?

I will call again tomorrow and get the final answer.


Minerat: If you size/deprime your cases on a single stage press first and then tumble them to remove the lube and then prime them,,,, and then start your loading on your progressive,,, all your problems will disappear.:mrgreen:

I use Dillon Case Lube which is about $10 a bottle which will last you for along time.

Everyone needs to look at reloading as a two stage operation. You'll make nicer ammo!

There is Case Preparation first which encompasses sizing, depriming, trimming, deburring, primer pocket swaging, tumbling, and possibly priming.

And then there is loading which encompasses, Priming if you didn't already do it, Charging the Case, Seating the Bullet and Crimping.

If you compartment your reloading operations into these two main categories you will find that things go much smoother across the board. You end up with ready to fire ammo which will be the best you've ever done.

If you are loading on a progressive, keeping the sizing/depriming step off that machine eliminates problems with lube getting in places you don't want it and fouling up the works.

I realize that pretty much all Progressive Presses are designed to be able to process an empty cartridge for start to finish in one pass.

For Strait Wall Pistol ammo using carbide dies this works just fine as they require no lube.

However Bottleneck Rifle Cases are a completely different animal, and no matter what kind of die you use you must use case lube or the case will stick in the die. (which kind of defeats the purpose of the machine in the first place.)

I also realize that many people do run Rifle cases on Progressives with case lube and have done so for along time. However they also spend time at the end of the loading session removing said lube from those loaded rounds. So in my mind it's a wash time wise. But I prefer handling clean, ready to fire ammo after loading it, as opposed to cleaning it again before boxing it up.

YMMV ! :holysheep

Randy

dverna
06-26-2016, 06:06 PM
Excellent.

One of the reasons my .38/.357 lever actions get the most use is that I can load .38's cheaply and quickly on the 1050. And they ring steel just fine. After all, shooting is the fun part. Just bought a dueling tree for some head to head shooting.

They do not have 30 round magazines but at least they do not have that silly .22 rifle plunger set up. You can make a quick loader out of PVC pipe that holds 10 rounds and push 10 rounds into the loading gate fairly quickly.

Minerat
06-26-2016, 08:47 PM
Randy,

Never thought that running bottle neck cases thru the progressive could be the problem, but now that you explain it it makes perfect sense. I have run it with carbide straight wall pistols cases with no problem but the 223's have been a constant problem. Looks like I have learned something new after reloading for 43 years, better late then never.

myg30: I like the baggie idea for 223's where I will be processing a lot, but will still use the Imperial sizing wax for the big hunting gun cases since I load them one at a time and weigh each charge.

runfiverun: The adjustment for the resizing die to round out the case mouth sounds like good idea and will have to give it a try. Heck if resizing first saves me from having to dismantle the piggyback apart to get the stuck case out of the sizing dies it is worth it. Besides that reloading for ground rat control is worth the extra time if you can just feed 30 round clips and not have to fight miss feeds due to inadequate sizing.:smile:

Thanks for the help all.

Lloyd Smale
06-27-2016, 07:39 AM
I take a bit different approach to my mass loading of 223s. Yes for the most part there going to be shot at targets or cans. But tomorrow they may have to be used to defend my family. Because of that reliability trumps accuracy all the time. But luckily they usually go hand in hand. Because of this and the fact I have a number of ars I allways small base size brass. that way it will run in any gun. I also trim my brass after every shooting. Brass in ars grows fast. You can probably get away with trimming every other time but I shoot enough that I dotn want to keep track of firings so I start with new or once fired and just got in the habit of trimming every time. Its pretty easy to do with the Dillon trimmer. I use a lnl with a case feeder. I lube my cases throw them in the case feeder run them through the small base die and size and deprime in the first station with the rest of the dies removed. reprime in the second and then take them and tumble them for about an hour to get rid of the lube. the I take out the size die and put in the powder charge and seating dies and run them through again using the case feeder and charge and seat bullets. You can size the second batch while the first one is tumbling and waste no time at all. Ive had ammo loaded like that shoot under 3/4s of an inch out of ars loaded like that so small base sizing sure isn't hurting a thing. One thing I insist on is I can grab any load out of any ammo can or coffee can that is a 223 and it works in everyone of ars and my bolt guns with a 100 percent reliability.

MrWolf
06-27-2016, 09:45 AM
+1 on depriming off my Dillon. I use the Harvey deprimer which works great.

dragon813gt
06-27-2016, 11:39 AM
A RCBS X-die will prevent trimming after every reloading. They make it in small base if that's what you want. I hate trimming brass so I bought one. I do not have a lot of reloads on the cases but it's worked so far.

W.R.Buchanan
06-27-2016, 03:12 PM
OK Guys::: in response to the post by Rizzo in post #14 I called Hodgdons today.

I got a definitive answer from the head of the Ballistics Lab.

BL-C2 and Winchester 748 are NOT exactly the same powder. However they are right next to each other on the burn chart.

Also WC846 which purported to be the same powder as BL-C2,,, is made to Military Specifications,,, as opposed to BL-C2 which is made to Civilian Specifications.

I spoke a length with the rep who told me that there are powders that are the same. IE: H110/W296,,, HP38/W231, and several others.

I hope this clears up this point for everyone who reads this thread. Like I said earlier,,, A call to the source is ALWAYS the best way to answer a technical question. Otherwise all answers should be considered "Hearsay," unless backed up by written source material.

Thank you for your continued indulgence of my Ship.

Randy

Lloyd Smale
06-28-2016, 06:40 AM
I didn't know they made a small base x die. Its the reason I never bothered with one.
A RCBS X-die will prevent trimming after every reloading. They make it in small base if that's what you want. I hate trimming brass so I bought one. I do not have a lot of reloads on the cases but it's worked so far.

Rizzo
06-28-2016, 11:44 AM
OK Guys::: in response to the post by Rizzo in post #14 I called Hodgdons today.

I got a definitive answer from the head of the Ballistics Lab.

BL-C2 and Winchester 748 are NOT exactly the same powder. However they are right next to each other on the burn chart.

Also WC846 which purported to be the same powder as BL-C2,,, is made to Military Specifications,,, as opposed to BL-C2 which is made to Civilian Specifications.

I spoke a length with the rep who told me that there are powders that are the same. IE: H110/W296,,, HP38/W231, and several others.

I hope this clears up this point for everyone who reads this thread. Like I said earlier,,, A call to the source is ALWAYS the best way to answer a technical question. Otherwise all answers should be considered "Hearsay," unless backed up by written source material.

Thank you for your continued indulgence of my Ship.

Randy


Thanks for taking the time to check that out Randy.

W.R.Buchanan
06-28-2016, 02:51 PM
The only point here is that they aren't "EXACTLY" the Same powder. They are next to each other on the burn rate chart.

They wouldn't tell me what was different, and since they are next to each other on the Burn Rate Chart (since no two powders have EXACTLY the same burn rate, and can't occupy the same place.) That should tell everyone something. Exactly how close they are is splitting hairs and won't affect my loads in any way.

A quick check of several Loading Manuals indicated that some charges for the two powders were the same, and some were slightly different.

When I run into this issue on who to believe I generally consider all the charges from the different manuals and end up some where below the average. I am never loading at Stated Max Charges since I have no need to eek out the last bit of velocity from any gun I shoot, and especially a Semi Auto gun.

95% works just fine and gives you an added safety margin.

I hope this clears this up.

Randy

fredj338
06-28-2016, 03:12 PM
A RCBS X-die will prevent trimming after every reloading. They make it in small base if that's what you want. I hate trimming brass so I bought one. I do not have a lot of reloads on the cases but it's worked so far.
I load only for my AR so the idea of constantly trimming, nope. I went with the RCBS X-sb die. I did a test batch of 20 to see how this no trim die worked. I got to 8x reloaded before I started seeing case shoulder/neck splits. This was with LC brass. I kept reloading them until I lost most by 12x reloaded but never had to trim. I don't know if it is the LC cases or the swaging type operation of the X die that is causing the neck/shoulder splits, but if I get an avg of 10x reloading, no trimming, I can live with that.
All of my 223 gets done on the 550. For once fired brass, I size & prep; primer pockets & trim, then the brass gets marked so I never have to do it again. Once prepped, I use Oneshot & run the ammo thru the 550, priming on press. Then just roll the loaded rounds around in an old towel, but you can leave the OS on, I just like to remove it. I load bulk Hornady as well, but also swage some of my own plinking bullets. I use 69gr match for serious target &/or 53gr match for varminting. My better loads will all shoot 3/4moa in my 20" hvy.