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Edward
06-24-2016, 04:20 PM
Trying to ship USPS muzzle loader I sold ,and am hearing from a less than helpful postal lady who says ship thru FFL ,I do not think she knows squat but has attitude so a debate needs more ammo (rules)than I have found yet .Hoping someone with more regs(postal)can shed some light as what i have found so far isn"t helping /Thanks Ed

Odinbreaker
06-24-2016, 04:29 PM
I dis assemble the gun than it is gun parts. take the barrel off if you can remove lock ect

Half Dog
06-24-2016, 04:37 PM
I recently purchased a BP revolver from Midway and it was sent to my home address.

lancem
06-24-2016, 05:00 PM
I believe the key is line 12.1.1.a, where at the end it says "but the term shall not include an antique firearm." Therefore an antique firearm does not meet the definition of a firearm. Since it isn't a firearm by definition none of the restrictions apply.




12.0Other Restricted and Nonmailable Matter
[Revise title of 12.1 as follows:]
12.1Firearms
12.1.1Definitions
The terms used in this standard are defined as follows:
[Delete current items 12.1.1a and 12.1.1g in their entirety and replace with the following.]
a.Firearm means any device, including a starter gun, which will, or is designed to, or may readily be convert*ed to, expel a projectile by the action of an explosive; the frame or receiver of any such weapon; any firearm muffler or firearm silencer; or any destructive device; but the term shall not include an antique firearm.
b.Firearm frame or receiver is the part of a firearm that provides housing for the hammer, bolt or breech*block, and firing mechanism and that is usually threaded at its forward portion to receive the barrel.
c.Handgun (including pistols and revolvers) means any firearm that has a short stock and is designed to be held and fired by the use of a single hand and subject to 12.1.1a, or a combination of parts from which a handgun can be assembled.
d.Other firearms capable of being concealed on the person include, but are not limited to, short-barreled shotguns and short-barreled rifles.
431.3 Antique FirearmAntique firearm means any muzzle loading rifle/shotgun/pistol, which is designed to use black powder or a black powder substitute, and which cannot use fixed ammunition (except those that incorporate a firearm frame or receiver, any firearm which is converted into a muzzle loading weapon, or any muzzle loading weapon which can be readily converted to fire fixed ammunition by replacing the barrel, bolt, breechblock, or any combination thereof); or any firearm (including those with a matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system) manufactured on or before 1898, or any replica thereof, if such replica:


[*=left]Is not designed or redesigned for using rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition.
[*=left]Uses rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition that is no longer manufactured in the United States and is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade.


http://pe.usps.com/text/pub52/pub52c4_008.htm
https://about.usps.com/postal-bulletin/2011/pb22321/html/updt_001.htm

johnson1942
06-24-2016, 05:32 PM
UPS and FEDEX looses muzzleloaders now and then, try to jump through their loops to get it in real money value. the U S post office never looses them and beside you can insure it for very little. i put on the slip, kit parts. never take them apart. do it all the time.

Squeeze
06-24-2016, 05:33 PM
just box it up well. They ship it, When they ask what? just say "sporting goods" Ive had plenty shipped to, and by me, in a very strict state

GREENCOUNTYPETE
06-24-2016, 05:37 PM
I have shipped a bolt action rifle and a cap and ball revoolver through the post office

the bolt action rifle shipped to an ffl , the cap and ball direct to the purchaser

you have to print off the rules and bring them in and show them where you can in fact as an individual ship a long gun to a ffl dealer

and that muzzle loaders and cap and ball pistols do not count as guns so you can ship them direct

you may have to explain that what your shipping is an antique

Edward
06-24-2016, 05:38 PM
Thank you all I believe I am now ready to argue this case /again thanks Ed

bubba.50
06-24-2016, 06:06 PM
yer first mistake was havin' any kind of gun conversation with someone who had no reason or business in knowin' what you were shippin'. in the future, box it up securely, offer NO information & just answer no to the "is it flammable, liquid, banned, illegal immoral or fattenin' to ship" questions. and if they persist in askin' just keep answerin' nothin' liquid, flammable, banned or illegal and no batteries included.

charlie b
06-24-2016, 06:07 PM
If shiping UPS the packing box should be strong enough to use it as a loading ramp. Watch how a truck is loaded and then as the driver has to walk on the boxes to get to the ones he needs to deliver. We use USPS for our shipping cause I got tired of filing claims with UPS (and USPS claims service is fast, UPS not so much).

bedbugbilly
06-24-2016, 06:59 PM
A hearty second on "pack it well" - then mail it. As shown above, it is legal to ship a muzzleloading gun throughh the USPS as technically, it is an "antique". If this particular Post Office (and in particular - this clerk) is giving you a hard time, take it to another Post Office. When they ask about perishable, liquid or hazardous materials - "just say no". What is in the box, as long as it is legal, is none of that clerk's business. Sounds to me like the clerk is a typical PO employee (and mind you, there are some excellent PO employees) but some just seem to have an "attitude" like any Federal employee and or politician. Just make sure that the recipient of what you are shipping lives in an area that does not forbid the receipt of a muzzleloading firearm - which is "their" responsibility to know as well as yours. Good luck!

oldracer
06-24-2016, 07:01 PM
If an FFL is required is dependent on the state that the BUYER is living in. I would suggest the buyer contact a local FFL they can trust and see what the rules are as it varies from state to state. For example, I live in CA which has terrible gun laws but when they were writing them up, no one understood anything about muzzle loaders so the refer to the Federal laws which say no FFL is required if the gun is an antique or a modern reproduction that can never be modified to use a cartridge! I just bought a muzzle loader from a dealer through GunBroker and it came right to the house. I also asked the seller to put the rifle into a hard case which they did which was nice.

rfd
06-24-2016, 07:11 PM
what bedbugbilly and others have already typed. unfortunately in this day and age of firearms in the usa, there is a shipping game of sorts to play and anonymity is best observed. pack extremely well. some gun makers will only ship in custom wood crates, but if one is a bit creative, lots of corrugated box protection can be almost as good. i've found that fedex is typically the lesser of all evil shipping vendors. praying can help, too.

Geezer in NH
06-24-2016, 08:08 PM
USPS own rule is allowed not a gun.

Make a formal complaint to the postmaster general. She will get needed remedial training. She is delaying commerce and the US Mail a very serious charge for a postal incompetent employee.

pietro
06-24-2016, 08:26 PM
just box it up well. They ship it, When they ask what? just say "sporting goods" Ive had plenty shipped to, and by me, in a very strict state



FWIW: Even a fish wouldn't get in trouble, if it would only keep it's big mouth shut.........

There is NO legal requirement to divulge the contents of ANY parcel mailed via USPS, except to truthfully answer the mailability questions every Postal Clerk must ask: “Does this parcel contain anything fragile, liquid, perishable, flammable, explosive or potentially hazardous, including lithium batteries and perfume ? ”

(I always respond: "Fragile", and ensure that I've so marked all 6 sides of the parcel, prior to my P.O. visit.)

IDK whether folks mailing firearms (BP or modern) are nervous that they'll do something wrong, just want to brag, or are just ignorant of USPS Regulations - but I do know that loose lips sink ships.


Forewarned = forearmed - ALWAYS carry a printout of the applicable USPS regs during every visit to a U.S.P.O. (I've even had to educate Postmasters, too, besides clerks)


.
.

swathdiver
06-24-2016, 09:53 PM
Yep, don't tell them nothing. Just ship it and use two labels on the box, this way if someone on the inside slaps their label over yours, you still have a chance the other will get scanned and found.

Even the police are woefully ignorant of what an antique firearm is and the laws, regulations and rules they are not bound by. The local UPS and Mailbox stores are no exception.

Tatume
06-25-2016, 06:53 AM
Thank you all I believe I am now ready to argue this case /again thanks Ed

Better to just go to a different post office and avoid the argument.

toot
06-25-2016, 08:28 AM
Roger that!!

54bore
06-25-2016, 09:16 AM
yer first mistake was havin' any kind of gun conversation with someone who had no reason or business in knowin' what you were shippin'. in the future, box it up securely, offer NO information & just answer no to the "is it flammable, liquid, banned, illegal immoral or fattenin' to ship" questions. and if they persist in askin' just keep answerin' nothin' liquid, flammable, banned or illegal and no batteries included.

What bubba said to the T!

matrixcs
06-25-2016, 09:19 AM
Box it well.. usps has no problem shipping golf clubs....

fiberoptik
06-26-2016, 01:19 AM
Package extra good. Insure your "antique machine parts".


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

1_Ogre
06-26-2016, 11:26 AM
When they ask me those questions at the Post Office, which they do every time, I tell them "I left my nuclear devices at home", we both laugh and they take my items.

waksupi
06-26-2016, 10:33 PM
You should not have told them you were shipping a firearm. This includes modern long arms.
If they get pushy, tell them to call BATF, BATF will tell them they can be charged for even inquiring.
I have shipped ML's to nearly every state, and several Canadian provinces with no problems.

SSGOldfart
07-06-2016, 11:35 PM
Just pack it in a flat rate box and mail it,they don't have to even know what in the box;)

Buckshot
07-14-2016, 02:34 AM
..............I've shipped and received several MLing firearms here in Calif. They are Federal 'Non Guns', and they travel just as lengths of galvanized sprinkler pipe. No issues, no problem. One issue might be a an uninformed postal being, but if there are others at the counter the newbie can be set to rights.

..............Buckshot

pietro
07-14-2016, 08:45 AM
.


FWIW, I wouldn't stoop to the level of uttering a lie about the contents of my parcel, any more than I'd rob a convenience store - It's just not honest/right.


.

rfd
07-14-2016, 08:59 AM
i hear ya, pietro, that would work in a perfect world, and our current united states world is just chock fulla lies and deception, mostly by politicians and the media. and then there's our government. they've all tainted the landscape in such devious ways that we, the bourgeois working class, have little recourse but to do the best we can to survive in a land where the rules are totally stacked against us. we have only ourselves to blame for allowing this to happen.

http://i.imgur.com/9sH92J9.jpg

flyingmonkey35
07-14-2016, 10:08 AM
Never argue with a idiot, as they will bring you down to thier level.

In your case never argue with a employee that dosnt know the rules. Just ask to speak to the post master. And say you'll wait at the counter for him/her.

I had to do it once when shipping lead. He pulled out the rule book and proved the employee wrong.

Like did you know! You can ship to a firearm manufacture With out going thru a ffl.




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daleraby
07-16-2016, 05:24 PM
Never tell a shipping agent what's in the box, at least for domestic mail. Its none of their business. If they really want to look, the postal inspectors can do it nice and legal like.

I purchased a flintlock in Northern Iraq from a Kurdish guy on the side of the road, put it behind the seat of the CUCV pickup I was driving, smuggled it across the border into Turkey to the building they had us warehoused in, borrowed tools from some Turks who were working on the building to make a crate out of scrap lumber, crated it up, smuggled it back across the border the same way to the APO in Iraq and mailed it home. As it was international, I had to fill out a customs label, on which I put "flint-lock rifle". When it arrived home, it had been opened, apparently inspected, then crated back up and shipped out.

I figure the only laws I might have broken were Turkish and Iraqi ones, but I'm pretty sure they wouldn't have given a rat's behind about an old French military flintlock suitable only for hanging on the wall.