380set back

[ROCKET]

I'm loading some 380 using lee dies and range brass. Every other bullet sets back when I push it with my thumb against the bench.

Is the brass to blame ? Any suggestions?

[DLCTEX]

Not getting enough crimp.Crimp in separate step.

[Outpost75]

What diameter are your bullets? In my Ruger LCP and Beretta M1934 I size my cast bullets to .358" and have no issues.

[rockshooter]

more crimp might help and since .380 is semi-rimmed won't get you into too much trouble. I'd suggest contacting Lee and seeing if they have a "u" (undersized) sizing die. Main issue is too little bullet pull- increasing bullet diameter might help if they will chamber.
Loren

[country gent]

A smaller sizing die might help but if the neck expander belling die is big ten its sizing the neck up to much. Measure the end of it with mics if you have them or calipers. Measure a bullet expander portion should be .0015-.002 under bullet dia. any less and you may have issues.

[jcren]

I have loaaded hundreds of 380 on Lee dies and haven't had this problem. Fcd being used?

[ROCKET]

Don't use the fcd die. Never liked it since in deformed my Boolits .. I'll try to crimp separately.


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[jcren]

I size to .3575 ish ( buffed out 357) and use the fcd with mixed brass and like my fcd just fine for 380.

[runfiverun]

I'd measure from the beginning.
I seen a 9mm size die recently that was oversized.

[SP5315]

I'd measure from the beginning.
I seen a 9mm size die recently that was oversized.

Had a similar issue with a 30 carbine die. Oversized and about a third of my reloads with jacketed or cast would set back with medium finger pressure. I had to send the die back to be replaced. On 380's, among other straight walled cases I like to use a separate dedicated Redding taper crimp die.

[dudel]

I had that happen on one round last week. Brass was clean; but I missed a crack in the case.

If some of them are tight, and others are not; I doubt it's your crimp, your boolits (if you sized them) or your sizing die.

Since you are using range brass (and I suspect not sorted by headstamp), know that brass can vary in thickness. Are the loose ones the same headstamp? If so, might have to cull those out and find a different crimp setting for them.

[44man]

Crimp is never the answer. The expander is the problem. Or your lead is so soft the brass sizes the boolits.

[Outpost75]

more crimp might help and since .380 is semi-rimmed won't get you into too much trouble. I'd suggest contacting Lee and seeing if they have a "u" (undersized) sizing die. Main issue is too little bullet pull- increasing bullet diameter might help if they will chamber.
Loren

.380 is NOT semi-rimmed, it is a true rimless. The .32 ACP IS semi-rimmed.

[Kosh75287]

The insufficient taper crimp may NOT be the source of the problem, but increasing the crimp + crimping in a separate step may reduce or eliminate it. Since it costs nothing to try, I'd try it before doing anything else. If you crimp and seat in one step, I'd try turning the die 1/8 turn or less to increase the crimp, and remember to turn the seater plug screw the opposite direction by the same amount. If you still have bullet setback after increasing crimp 1/4 turn, I'd say that your problem is not amenable to the measure I've described.

[leadman]

I agree with 44man, you need to figure out why the cases do not have enough neck tension to hold the boolits tight. The 380 headspaces on the end of the case so if you crimp too much the case may not headspace correctly. Brass has more "springback" than lead so overcrimpimg may lead to a loose boolit.

[murf205]

Crimp is never the answer. The expander is the problem. Or your lead is so soft the brass sizes the boolits.

What 44man said

[rwadley]

.380 is NOT semi-rimmed, it is a true rimless. The .32 ACP IS semi-rimmed.
25 ACP & 38 ACP are semi-rimmed, too.

[luvtn]

I'm loading some 380 using lee dies and range brass. Every other bullet sets back when I push it with my thumb against the bench.

Is the brass to blame ? Any suggestions?
Why would you even push it against the bench? How does it shoot? Does it set back then?
Luvtn

[emorris]

It is not the crimp. 1. Your sizing die does not size the brass down enough. 2. Your expander die is too big. 3. Your bullets are too small. If you load try the the 223 sizer die ( with a little lube). Mic your expander. It seem to be common with 380 due to varying brass thickness. Thicker brass equals a smaller hole when resizer. Lee makes an undersized die for 380.

[mjwcaster]

Have the same problem.
Contacted Lee and they told me to send the die, some bullets and brass and they would ship me a die that will size the brass down enough.
Just need to get things packed up and shipped out.

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[dkf]

I had the same problem with Lee dies in .380 and .44mag but ONLY with jacketed bullets. Cast are larger diameter and that is what it seems like Lee makes these dies for. I sent the .380 die back to Lee and after spending pissing away shipping money they said it was "within spec". They did not care that I could push .355" jacketed bullets in the case (with no case flare or expanding of the brass) with my fingers. I tried many different brands of brass and all were the same. Neck tension was very slightly better with nickel brass but I chalked that up to the plating adding a couple tenths of a thou to the ID. I am not the only person who has had this problem either. What I did was buy Lee U dies (undersize) sizing dies. I use the "U die" for jacketed and the regular sizer for cast. It is kinda a pain but it is what it is. You can apply enough taper crimp that it will somewhat hold the bullet but that will ruining neck tension even more.(tried that) The U sizer was the solution for me, its only money I guess.

[RoadBike]

It is not the crimp. 1. Your sizing die does not size the brass down enough. 2. Your expander die is too big. 3. Your bullets are too small.

^^^This^^^.

WAAAY back in the day, I had issues with one particular brand of brass in 45 ACP. I got a Lee "U" die, and that solved the problem.

[w5pv]

I use Lee FCD crimp with just enough roll that you san see edge is marred,it holds good and I have never had any problem with the boolits pushing back.It doesn't swage the boolit.If you are having problems check your die settings.

[edctexas]

I have had a problem with some LEE boolits in 380,9mm, and 40SW. They work with lube but dare very fussy about seating depth when using PC. The dia in front of where the driving bands start if built up with PC means they marginally pass the "plonk" test. I thought for a while that the LEE FCD would fix the problem. I always use some slight crimp on semi auto rounds to prevent setback. A taper crimp seems to work better as it does not swage the boolit as much because its force is spread over a larger area. The Lee FCD seems to put a dent in the boolits. YMMV, just one man's opinion.

Ed C

[LuckyDog]

Was helping a buddy trouble shoot a similar problem but in 9mm Luger.

Turned out he was seating the bullets to far in. He was trying to set them to the same OAL as the Commercial HP rounds he had. He was using Xtreme plated RN.

The 9x19mm is tapered a little though. Seated the bullets higher and the problem went away. He was using Xtreme plated RN.

Just a FWIW.

[gpidaho]

Proper neck tension is the key to safe loads in an autoloading handgun. The crimp, no matter what brand or style is not going to make improperly sized and expanded rounds safe to shoot. Use what ever style crimp die you prefer and crimp out the case flare plus a small amount on a round with proper neck tension and you're good to go. Gp

[Bonz]

case opening/neck tension on a .380 brass case is controlled by the web of the brass. Measure the web area of the brass after you have run the brass case thru the sizing die; should be 0.374" or less. The Lee bulge buster kit does a good job with .380 brass, roll sizing with a CasePro 100 is a step up if you happen to have one.

[osteodoc08]

Had similar issue with Hornady 45 ACP dies. The sizing die was oversized and wasn't bringing the brass down enough. Size a piece of brass and measure at the mouth and report back.

Be sure to bell the case to where you can measure a difference from a freshly sized case and the bullets can be seated without scraping off the plating. You don't need it flared like a trumpet.

Crimp to get rid of the bell. It doesn't take much.

[mjwcaster]

Finally sent my 380 die set.
Quick response from lee-
Nothing wrong, within spec, you are doing something wrong.
Not very happy about wasting the time and money on this.

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[dkf]

Finally sent my 380 die set.
Quick response from lee-
Nothing wrong, within spec, you are doing something wrong.
Not very happy about wasting the time and money on this.

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I figured that was the response you would get. You probably got the same guy I had look at my die, "Mr. Pin Gage". He told me I need a U die. I asked him if my die was "within spec" why did they make a U die? He said "Because some people use undersized bullets". Hes a liar IMO, I never met, heard or saw anyone use smaller than a .355" bullet in .380 and I can't fathom why anyone would want to.

Anyway the U die will likely solve your problem, it did for me. Just sucks giving more money to Lee for something that isn't right on their end.

[DougGuy]

Why would you even push it against the bench? How does it shoot? Does it set back then?
Luvtn

If you can't push against the bench to make sure the boolit does NOT move back in the case, and you just ASSUME it is all good, and you BLOW YOUR GUN UP in your hand from boolit setback, then you deserved the KB because you SKIPPED a critical test of ammo, the bench press.

Bench press test is a CRITICAL test of ammo! Don't SKIP the bench test. It keeps you from blowing up your gun.

[DougGuy]

ROCKET, and mjwcaster. This is for you fellas. You are suffering from not enough neck tension.

First, what are you sizing to? If you are sizing smaller than .358" there may not be enough tension between the case and the boolit. IF you want to size .357" and smaller, you MUST reduce the diameter of the expanding die so that it doesn't over expand the case mouth and leave you with not enough tension. It don't matter how much you crimp, if the powder die has over expanded the case, THAT is the problem, and crimping more or using a different crimp is NOT going to fix the issue.

You can size to .358" IF your barrel will allow that size of boolit into the throat. If it will, you may get enough case neck tension from the standard expander plug in the Lee powder die. If it won't, and you size smaller, then you MUST make the expander plug smaller.

Simple as that.

If you want to size .358" and the barrel won't "Plunk" loaded ammo, then send the barrel and have it throated so it will let you size to .358" and should be able to assemble ammo that every round will pass the bench press test. I cannot overstate how CRITICAL this test is.

9mm operates at 35,000 or 35,500psi, as little as .010" boolit setback can send pressures WELL ABOVE 60,000psi. You can easily blow up a gun in your hands without enough case tension to hold the boolits against setback into the case as they are fed from the magazine. This is why the bench test is so critical. It keeps you from blowing up your gun.

[mjwcaster]

Issue is with .355 plated commercial bullets.
No issue with expanders, I have different sized ones and pick the appropriate one, factory for jacketed, custom oversize for cast.
Also use the same expanders (Dillon powder funnels) for 9mm and 380.
Expander/funnel works fine with .355 in 9mm, but not with .355 in 380?

Even tried .380 sized cases and seating bullet without expanding, still lacked case tension.

I have another thread somewhere here that goes through everything I have done to trouble shoot this issue.

If I can seat a plated .355 bullet in a sized case without swaging down the bullet and it still lacks case tension what does that tell you?



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[DougGuy]

Issue is with .355 plated commercial bullets.

If I can seat a plated .355 bullet in a sized case without swaging down the bullet and it still lacks case tension what does that tell you?


I think you just answered your question.

Ok maybe the barrel needs throating so you CAN use a larger boolit, which would at least hypothetically give you more tension, correct? If the barrel will chamber a larger boolit already, why use a .355?

[DerekP Houston]

If you can't push against the bench to make sure the boolit does NOT move back in the case, and you just ASSUME it is all good, and you BLOW YOUR GUN UP in your hand from boolit setback, then you deserved the KB because you SKIPPED a critical test of ammo, the bench press.

Bench press test is a CRITICAL test of ammo! Don't SKIP the bench test. It keeps you from blowing up your gun.

phew someone else covered it. Thanks for the write up doug!

I too use the lee 3 die set for 380 acp, no issues so far. I size to .356 and they shoot just fine. I might go larger with the next batch but I only have a single 380 and they shoot just fine....so why break what works.

[mjwcaster]

Dougguy, my goal at this particular moment with this particular cartridge is to load commercial jacketed/plated 355" because I do not cast for 380 yet.

So I bought bullets for it to get started.

Jacketed and plated typically come sized at .355, do they not?

Most reloaders are not casters and would use commercial .355 bullets.

If the majority of reloaders can make it work, I should be able to also.

Heck, most of the reloading world revolves around jacketed and doesn't even acknowledge the need for different sizes for cast, such as Dillon always saying that their stick 9mm expander works fine for cast.

Dillon factory 9mm expander is too small for my soft oversize cast boolits, hence the reason I had lathesmith make me a custom .357 expander.

So getting a die set that will safely load jacketed/plated commercial bullets should not be this much work.

Even in calibers I cast for, I do not always have enough time and will buy commercial bullets.
So I like to be able to reload both, even if that means switching expanders or even sizing dies to match the size bullets I am reloading.



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[DerekP Houston]

Dougguy, my goal at this particular moment with this particular cartridge is to load commercial jacketed/plated 355" because I do not cast for 380 yet.

So I bought bullets for it to get started.

Jacketed and plated typically come sized at .355, do they not?

Most reloaders are not casters and would use commercial .355 bullets.

If the majority of reloaders can make it work, I should be able to also.

Heck, most of the reloading world revolves around jacketed and doesn't even acknowledge the need for different sizes for cast, such as Dillon always saying that their stick 9mm expander works fine for cast.

Dillon factory 9mm expander is too small for my soft oversize cast boolits, hence the reason I had lathesmith make me a custom .357 expander.

So getting a die set that will safely load jacketed/plated commercial bullets should not be this much work.

Even in calibers I cast for, I do not always have enough time and will buy commercial bullets.
So I like to be able to reload both, even if that means switching expanders or even sizing dies to match the size bullets I am reloading.



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Simple way to test the dies.

Go buy another set from Amazon or somewhere that will handle the return to Lee themselves.

See if 2nd set suffers from same expander issue (I personally got a bad batch for 9mm)

Return faulty set.

I personally think it is a bad die or something else (stacking tolerances not in your favor?), i didn't have to swap out any parts for mine to get 380 to work.

[leadman]

If the expander is the cause by being too large just turn it down some. If you have a hand drill of drill press that you can chuck up the expander and use a piece of sandpaper with a backer on it like a file and turn it down, checking often. Make sure you measure before starting and take like .001" off and try it. If needed take some more off. If you take it too far the expander is not very expensive, you might want to purchase an extra before starting.
I have pretty much given up on Lee dies due to varying dimensions and the fact their rifle dies do not have a seating die that crimps now.

[DougGuy]

Jacketed and plated typically come sized at .355, do they not?

Most reloaders are not casters and would use commercial .355 bullets.

If the majority of reloaders can make it work, I should be able to also.



Did you not even read my earlier response?



IF you want to size .357" and smaller, you MUST reduce the diameter of the expanding die so that it doesn't over expand the case mouth and leave you with not enough tension.

You have NO case tension to speak of. Not enough to make safe ammo anyway.

It matters not how many reloaders use .355 plated bullets.

It matters that your bullets are too small for your cases and there is no tension or the cases are too large for the bullets and there is no tension.

It matters that your expander makes the cases too large for a .355 bullet to create tension.

It is SIMPLE MATH. You have to either make the cases smaller by making the expander smaller, using a smaller resizing die, *OR* you have to use larger bullets.

Is that so hard to understand?

And if the resizing die leaves the cases still too large for a .355 bullet to make tension, get a different die.

[Outpost75]

Issue is with .355 plated commercial bullets...I have different sized ones and pick the appropriate one, factory for jacketed, custom oversize for cast...Expander/funnel works fine with .355 in 9mm, but not with .355 in 380? Even tried .380 sized cases and seating bullet without expanding, still lacked case tension... If I can seat a plated .355 bullet in a sized case without swaging down the bullet and it still lacks case tension what does that tell you?

(9mm brass is heavier and has more springback. Requires DIFFERENT expander plug. Using 9mm plug in .380 brass WILL BE LOOSE.)

With light bullets around 100 grains you can stuff the .380 case with all the Alliant #2400 it will hold and the compressed powder charge will prevent the bullets from setting back in the feed cycle. by providing base support to the bullet in the same way that black powder does. And no, it won't blow the gun up.

Velocity of .380 ACP Factory and Heavy Cast Bullet Handloads in Beretta vs. Ruger LCP

Ammunition Type___________3.4” Beretta M1934______2.75” Ruger LCP

Fiocchi 95-grain FMJRN_______984 fps, 25 Sd, 86ES_____853 fps, 34 Sd, 116 ES

Remington 102-grain GSHP____893 fps, 27 Sd, 60ES_____845 fps, 44 Sd, 151 ES

35-122T, 6.3 grs. Alliant #2400__896 fps, 36 Sd, 115 ES___859 fps, 22 Sd, 58 ES

[gnostic]

Country-Gent has it right. My 380 dies really size my brass down small. My loaded rounds have a coke bottle shape and a little taper crimp, finishes them up...

[mjwcaster]

Dougguy I already knew I lacked neck tension and need a smaller sizing die.
Initially misread your original post as the issue was 'Not neck tension) and was just tying to explain my reasoning to you.

Outpost75 you do have a point on the differing brass thickness and springback.
I currently have 3 9mm/380 expander/powder funnels, .357", .354" .353"

But if I can seat a .355" bullet in a sized case without expanding it at all and without swaging down the bullet my first issue is with my sizing my cases.

Feedback from my other thread and some PM's shows that I am not the only one that has issues with an Oversize LEE sizing die and their lack of support.

[DougGuy]

But if I can seat a .355" bullet in a sized case without expanding it at all and without swaging down the bullet my first issue is with my sizing my cases.

That is what I meant by this comment.
It matters that your bullets are too small for your cases and there is no tension or the cases are too large for the bullets and there is no tension.

Once you find a resizing/decapping die that works well for you I think you will be in business. I have taken to just making an expander plug for whatever boolit size I am loading until the tension feels about right at the press.

I have a new project starting with .45 Schofield brass, and haven't yet even sized the first case or loaded the first round. SAAMI calls for a .454" boolit and I have .45 ACP, .45 Colt, and .45 Schofield die sets so I probably have enough variance in those to figure out which one is going to size correctly for .452" boolits. I am sure there will be different case tension with each die. I don't know if Lee made .45 Schofield die sets based on the SAAMI spec for .454" boolits or made them to use .452" but we will soon find out.

[DerekP Houston]

Feedback from my other thread and some PM's shows that I am not the only one that has issues with an Oversize LEE sizing die and their lack of support.

You are correct here. Like I mentioned earlier I would've already bought a 2nd kit and seen if I had the same issue. Mail it back to Amazon for a refund if it didn't fix it. I didn't know there was a difference at first....so assuming I had a lee turret press I needed lee dies.

[DerekP Houston]

You are correct here. Like I mentioned earlier I would've already bought a 2nd kit and seen if I had the same issue. Mail it back to Amazon for a refund if it didn't fix it. I didn't know there was a difference at first....so assuming I had a lee turret press I needed lee dies.

Sigh, apparently I should've done more research. I'm now having the same issue with factory jacketed bullets vs my home cast loads. Little to no neck tension on the hornady xtp 90gr loads. I'll be ordering an undersize die for loading jacketed as well and hopefully it will fix my issue. I switched back to loading cast bullets and had no issues.